Mengele experiments?

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Mengele experiments?

Postby Uncle Scam » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:14 pm

I have ran across more than a couple of new 'scientific' breakthroughs posts of late, which has made me wonder if these new accounts could have something to do with places like Guantanamo Bay. For example, the recent article found at metafilter, entitled: 'Scientists discover 'shadow person' :<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/55104">www.metafilter.com/mefi/55104</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Problem is, most all of the recent spate of posts, are next to impossible to track down any futher infomation, such as white papers or who did the research or whom funded them etc...<br><br>Which has in turn piqued my interest --or suspicion-- that these latest projects are direct or indirect results of Mengele-type experiments in the far recesses of CIA "detainee operations" i.e. performed human medical experiments etc..<br><br>Further I can't help but wonder if the main goal of these places aren't to create controlled terrorist's (sleeper cells) for the convenience of Cheney and his crew; not that these things can't be done without "detainee operations", but something nags at me that that is exactly what these project are about. Anyone else get that intution?<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Mengele experiments?

Postby Et in Arcadia ego » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:26 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Problem is, most all of the recent spate of posts, are next to impossible to track down any futher infomation, such as white papers or who did the research or whom funded them etc...<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>What do you mean, man? The research was published in Nature.<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/686">www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/686</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>I posted about this last week here. I'm pretty sure I got my link from a different source.<br><br>I lack much to say about a CIA/Mengele relationship.<br><br> <p>____________________<br>Some are born to sweet delight, some are born to endless night.</p><i></i>
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Re: Mengele experiments?

Postby Et in Arcadia ego » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:28 pm

<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm10.showMessage?topicID=6227.topic">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...6227.topic</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p>____________________<br>Some are born to sweet delight, some are born to endless night.</p><i></i>
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Re: Mengele experiments?

Postby Uncle Scam » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:08 pm

Of course, I really wish I had the time to elaborate more, as I am pressed for time, but thank you nonetheless et in Arcadia ego, I saw your post and didn't have time to search it up, however, I was merely using this post as an example, there are others of which when I have time will post about that have no leads other than the author. <br><br>A quick google search pulled up these:<br><br>Beyond consent: the potential for atrocity -- Gaw 99 (4): 175 ...<br>With disbelief the world received news of medical experiments performed on the inmates of ... Doctors and interrogators at Guantanamo Bay. N Engl J Med2005; ...<br><br>and <br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.bioethics.net/journal/j_articles.php?aid=70">www.bioethics.net/journal...php?aid=70</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>One it is behind a paywall, the other I haven't had time to check...<br><br>However, I would like to get more into it later tonight and will add more. My main question still holds, does anyone else, think these places are to create controlled terrorist's (sleeper cells) for the convenience of Cheney and his crew to be used at a later date? Am I crazy for thinking this? Any comments or thoughts along that line would be nice.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Mengele experiments?

Postby Et in Arcadia ego » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:14 pm

Your questions are valid, and if anything else, I have little to no difficulties seeing inmates in these facilities as a potential and disposable commodity useful for testing more...controversial medical/scientific works. <p>____________________<br>Some are born to sweet delight, some are born to endless night.</p><i></i>
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Re: Mengele experiments?

Postby Project Willow » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:43 pm

Two sources for you:<br><br>Alfred McCoy "A Question of Torture: CIA Interrogation, from the Cold War to the War on Terror"<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Question-Torture-Interrogation-Cold-Terror/dp/0805080414/sr=8-1/qid=1159389881/ref=sr_1_1/102-2930555-0209705?ie=UTF8&s=books">book</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>“From 1950 to 1962, the CIA became involved in torture through a massive mind control effort, with psychological warfare and secret research into human consciousness that reached a cost of a billion dollars annually – a veritable Manhattan Project of the mind.”<br><br>He also speaks of an instructional manual produced in 1963 outlining the techniques used at Git-mo and Abu Ghraib.<br><br>I'm almost certain you meant to use Mengele as a descriptive term, but there is evidence Mengele was imported into the US and was not only active in these programs but was head of the trauma indoctrination work with children.<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://my.dmci.net/~casey/JosephMengelesurvivorsightings.htm">my.dmci.net/~casey/JosephMengelesurvivorsightings.htm</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=projectwillow@rigorousintuition>Project Willow</A> at: 9/27/06 3:46 pm<br></i>
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intuition

Postby blanc » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:44 am

Uncle Scam, same thoughts ran thro my mind last night - during discussion with spouse as to what purpose GB torture could really be serving - ie obviously not info on actual terrorist cells, the men are kept there too long for any info to be extracted which could be current, even if they had been seized in mid terrorist operation. so, the pos of extension of mind control prog. or guinea pigs for psych or other experimentation sprang to mind. <p></p><i></i>
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" "

Postby robertdreed » Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:04 am

The exact same idea has been on my mind from the beginning.<br><br>The initial justification for the secret detnetion and torture program (and how quickly such things shift!) was the "ticking time bomb scenario"- the hypothetical situation where a guilty terrorist indisputably knows the details of some horrific crime in the works, where hours, minutes, seconds count in the effort to stop it.<br><br>But there's simply no way that detaining people for months on end and working their minds over fits that scenario. <br><br>I was reminded of the effort by the Guatemalan military and covert ops "intelligence" agencies- apparently with the assistance of US "advisors"- to forcibly break the will of Jennifer Harbury's Guatemalan guerilla husband Everardo, by doing things like placing him in a full-body cast. The aim seems to have been to forcibly convert him to switch sides and ally with his captors, after which he would have been released ( with the cover story of escapee ) to rejoin his fellow anti-government guerillas and eventually betray them to the military. <br><br>To a certain sort of mentality, that would seem like a "neat idea"- in view of the lack of informers and inside intelligence, or even cooperative people skilled in Arabic, the most efficient way to create such a network would be to forcibly brainwash captive terrorists and release them to rejoin their former comrades.<br><br>Considering that the "ticking time bomb" justification is obvious nonsense, it makes sense to look for ulterior motives such as that one. I note that I haven't heard that Hollywood thriller hype out of any members of the punditocracy lately, they were only furrowing their brows and dithering over it at the outset of Rumsfeld's blitzkrieg on human rights.<br><br>George Bush used a variation of it in his "we don't torture, and we won't do it any more, but if we do, we refuse to be considered war criminals" speech, a few weeks ago. He even too the the Anthrax bugaboo out of his trick bag and waved it around. But he didn't get into the "seconds count" rationalization. Perhaps his handlers realized that would be too much of a stretch at this point. <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: "Torture in Guantanamo"

Postby AlicetheCurious » Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:03 am

The torture that has been reported out of Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib also struck me as psychological experimentation, mostly because of its variety, the involvement in an apparently supervisory role of the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit, and its seeming pointlessness, since there is no evidence that any of the victims had any useful information to "give up". <br><br>The torture looks exactly like experimentation on captive human guinea pigs: everything from stripping the prisoners naked and having a woman humiliate them, forcing them to simulate sex with each other, to threatening with dogs, raping teenaged boys, to ripping the Koran and throwing it into the toilet, to "waterboarding" to wrapping prisoners in an Israeli flag, forcing them to listen to loud rap music, chaining them on their hands and knees to the floor naked, beatings, suffocation, etc.<br><br>Yet the majority of those prisoners were just Muslims from different countries and various ages who were randomly rounded up and kidnapped, never charged with anything, and extremely unlikely to have any useful information about the operations of "al-Qaeda".<br><br>And they were held for months or years, incommunicado, even their names were not released, nor was their exact number. Was that so that if any died during the experiments, they would be impossible to trace?<br><br>Another idea crossed my mind, as I read about the tortures and the humiliations inflicted on these people: maybe the purpose was not only to experiment and study the victims, but to train, to desensitize or study the torturers as well.<br><br>How better to provide 'on-the-job training' in torture techniques?<br><br>Or to determine the best way to desensitize troops who must not allow compassion or moral considerations to interfere with the carrying out of their orders?<br><br>Or even to select the most efficient and talented torturers?<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>FBI Agents Allege Abuse of Detainees at Guantanamo Bay</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>By Dan Eggen and R. Jeffrey Smith<br>Washington Post Staff Writers<br>Tuesday, December 21, 2004; Page A01 <br><br>Detainees at the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, were shackled to the floor in fetal positions for more than 24 hours at a time, left without food and water, and allowed to defecate on themselves, an FBI agent who said he witnessed such abuse reported in a memo to supervisors, according to documents released yesterday.<br><br>In memos over a two-year period that ended in August, FBI agents and officials also said that they witnessed the use of growling dogs at Guantanamo Bay to intimidate detainees -- contrary to previous statements by senior Defense Department officials -- and that one detainee was wrapped in an Israeli flag and bombarded with loud music in an apparent attempt to soften his resistance to interrogation.<br> <br>In addition, several agents contended that military interrogators impersonated FBI agents, suggesting that the ruse was aimed in part at avoiding blame for any subsequent public allegations of abuse, according to memos between FBI officials.<br><br>The accounts, gleaned from <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>heavily redacted</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> e-mails and memorandums, were obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union as part of an ongoing lawsuit. They suggest that extremely aggressive interrogation techniques were more widespread at Guantanamo Bay than was acknowledged by military officials.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>The documents also make it clear that some personnel at Guantanamo Bay believed they were relying on authority from senior officials in Washington to conduct aggressive interrogations. One FBI agent wrote a memo referring to a presidential order that approved interrogation methods "beyond the bounds of standard FBI practice," although White House and FBI officials said yesterday that such an order does not exist.<br><br>Instead, FBI and Pentagon officials said, the order in question was signed by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld in December 2002 and then revised four months later after complaints from military lawyers that he had authorized methods that violated international and domestic law.<br><br>In a Jan. 21, 2004, e-mail, an FBI agent wrote that "this technique [of impersonating an FBI agent], and all of those used in these scenarios, was approved by the DepSecDef," referring to Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul D. Wolfowitz.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>Deputy Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said in a statement last night that Wolfowitz "did not approve interrogation techniques." Whitman also said "it is difficult to determine" whether the impersonation technique "was permissible or not," but that such a tactic was not endorsed by Rumsfeld.<br><br>ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero said in an interview that the incidents described in the documents "can only be described as torture."<br><br>The government is holding about 550 people detained in the war on terrorism at a prison on the U.S. Navy base at Guantanamo Bay. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Some have been held for nearly three years without charges or access to attorneys.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> Several dozen have taken advantage of a June ruling by the Supreme Court and petitioned federal courts to challenge their imprisonment.<br><br>Some of the FBI memos were written this year after a request from agency headquarters for firsthand accounts of abuse of detainees, officials said.<br><br>An overall theme of the documents is a chasm between the interrogation techniques followed by the FBI and the more aggressive tactics used by some military interrogators. "We know what's permissible for FBI agents but are less sure what is permissible for military interrogators," one FBI official said in a lengthy e-mail on May 22, 2004.<br><br>In another e-mail, dated Dec. 5, 2003, an agent complained about military tactics, including the alleged use of FBI impersonators. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>"These tactics have produced no intelligence of a threat neutralization nature to date and . . . have destroyed any chance of prosecuting this detainee," the agent wrote. "If this detainee is ever released or his story made public in any way, DOD interrogators will be not be held accountable because these torture techniques were done [by] the 'FBI' interrogators."</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>In another e-mail, an unidentified FBI agent describes at least three incidents involving Guantanamo detainees being chained to the floor for extended periods of time and being subjected to extreme heat, extreme cold or "extremely loud rap music."<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>"On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water," the FBI agent wrote on Aug. 2, 2004. "Most times they had urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18 to 24 hours or more."<br><br>In one case, the agent continued, "the detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his own hair out throughout the night."</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>In an e-mail dated Aug. 16, 2004, an agent from the FBI's inspection division reported observing a detainee sitting in an interview room at Guantanamo Bay's Camp Delta "with an Israeli flag draped around him, loud music being played and a strobe light flashing." The same agent said that he or she did not witness any "physical assaults" while at Guantanamo.<br><br>A detainee, Ibrahim Ahmed Mahmoud al Qosi of Sudan, an alleged paymaster for al Qaeda and accused associate of Osama bin Laden, has claimed similar abuse in documents contesting his imprisonment that were filed in federal court in Washington last month. He alleges Guantanamo Bay interrogators wrapped prisoners in an Israeli flag, showed them pornographic photos and forced them to be present while others had sex. Military officials denied his allegations.<br><br>The documents also contain what may be the first witness account of the use of military dogs to intimidate detainees during interrogations at Guantanamo Bay. In an undated and heavily redacted memo, initially classified "Secret," an FBI employee reported that members of the agency's <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Behavioral Analysis Unit</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> had witnessed the use of "loud music/bright lights/growling dogs" during interviews by U.S. military personnel at the island prison.<br><br>The Army was embarrassed by photos of snarling military dogs and cowering detainees in Iraq, which officials acknowledged later had violated the Geneva Conventions protections for military prisoners. But officials have maintained steadfastly that the technique was never used in Guantanamo Bay.<br><br>The issue is particularly pertinent to statements by Maj. Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller, who commanded the Guantanamo Bay prison from October 2002 to March 2004. Miller has acknowledged urging in September 2003 that military dogs be sent to Iraq to help deter prison violence, but he told a team of Defense Department investigators in June -- and many reporters -- that "we never used the dogs for interrogations while I was in command" of Guantanamo Bay.<br><br>Miller's statement contradicted other sworn testimony -- by the senior military intelligence officer at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad -- that Miller acknowledged using dogs to intimidate prisoners at Guantanamo Bay and recommended a similar approach in Iraq.<br><br>Miller, who took over the Iraq prison operation after the Abu Ghraib abuses became public, recently left that job for an assignment as the Army's chief of installations and could not be reached through Army and Pentagon spokesmen yesterday. Air Force Maj. Michael Shavers, a spokesman on Guantanamo Bay issues, said he had no comment on the allegation of use of dogs.<br><br>Staff writer Peter Baker and researcher Julie Tate contributed to this report. <br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14936-2004Dec20?language=printer">www.washingtonpost.com/ac...ge=printer</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: "Torture in Guantanamo"

Postby vigilantwarrior » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:19 pm

<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2005/05/tunes_for_tortu.html">blog.wfmu.org/freeform/20...tortu.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>One of the weirdest musical episodes described in The Men Who Stare At Goats concerns a detainee at Guantanamo Bay. Jamal al-Harith is a British website designer who was arrested by US troops in Afghanistan shortly after 9/11 and ended up in Guantanamo Bay for two years, before being released for lack of any evidence against him. In the course of being interrogated, Jamal was seated in a vacant room with a boombox. Occasionally a military intelligence officer entered with a CD and said "Here's a great girl band doing Fleetwood Mac songs." The CD would play, and when it ended, the officer would come back into the room and say "You might like this," and put on a Kris Kristofferson record. Then Matchbox Twenty. Ronson makes the case that the music Jamal was forced to listen to was embedded with subliminal messages encouraging him to spill all his Al Qaeda secrets.<br><br>It seems that the military has quite an interest in the work of Doctor Oliver Lowery, who in 1992 received US patent # 5,159,703 for the Silent Subliminal Presentation System, "a silent communications system in which non-aural carriers in the very low or very high audio-frequency range are amplified or frequently modulated for inducement into the brain."<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Ronson claims to have spoken with someone claiming to be Lowery by phone, who described the subliminal mind-control program as comparable to the Manhattan Project in scale dating back 25 years (which makes its inception concurrent with Aquino's "MindWar" proposal).<br><br>The possibility that an army of sleepers/Manchurian candidates is being created is less unnerving than one possible explanation for the public's lack of "outrage". How many even retain the capacity to resist? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: "Torture in Guantanamo"

Postby AlicetheCurious » Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:26 pm

Is it just me, or is what passes for "music" on popular music stations incredibly ennervating and unpleasant?<br><br>I used to have to have the radio on, from the minute I got up to when I went to sleep. Now I simply can't stand it for more than a few seconds. The mechanical, repetitive beat reminds me of the compulsive rocking of disturbed children, the lyrics are so vacuous and, well, stupid...you get my drift.<br><br>I do listen to my own cd's, that I compile from downloaded songs (mostly oldies, French stuff & classical).<br><br>Maybe I'm just getting older, or maybe there's a reason why local radio stations are going the way of vinyl records, to be replaced by huge corporations like Clearwater. <br><br>Maybe I'm just paranoid. I'd like to hear what others think, though. <p></p><i></i>
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Sex, Drugs, Mind Control, and Gitmo

Postby professorpan » Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:53 pm

I posted a pretty long piece about this topic some time ago:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.charm.net/~profpan/2005/07/sex-drugs-mind-control-and-gitmo.html">www.charm.net/~profpan/20...gitmo.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>And Alice, the reason why pop music is annoying and unpleasant to you might be pretty simple:<br><br>You're gettting older ;-) <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Sex, Drugs, Mind Control, and Gitmo

Postby AlicetheCurious » Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:08 pm

I clicked on the link and went to your blog post -- if this kind of writing is representative of your blog, I'm putting it on my short list of must-reads. You write beautifully, and your post was thoughtful and full of important information and analysis.<br><br>Also, I forgive you for the "getting older" remark, I mean, it's true, but the music is still crap. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Sex, Drugs, Mind Control, and Gitmo

Postby professorpan » Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:32 pm

Aww, shucks (blush) . . .<br><br>Thanks. Really. <p></p><i></i>
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Pop Music c. 2006

Postby robertdreed » Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:08 am

I concur about the current pop music scene, which is easily as bad these days as the previous nadir- Reagan's first term in office. And yes, this time around the corporate yoke on the airwaves is even stronger. <br><br>Overall, the diversity of music availability has never been better. I recommend satellite radio, podcasting, and the Internet for sources, though. <br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 9/28/06 10:10 pm<br></i>
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