salwa kader ?

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salwa kader ?

Postby hava1 » Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:52 am

THrough a canadian website/group i found out there will be a hearing in the UN about Ritual Abuse/torture, in the coming year. The moderator of the panel is going to be Salwa Kader. Googling her name she appears to be a former Lebanese, who supported the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, immigrated to NJ, and is involved in peace in the Mideast and the status of women in the Mid East. however, her NGO appears to include a <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>republican</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> congressman from Michigan. <br><br>It is not the first time that I find out Canada is fishing info for the UN - under the guise of human rights activism- and in particular with context of the ME, (see, the Arar case, as the most famous instance). However, being ignorant of US politics, I am not able to place this woman on the "map". is she left/progressive ? or is she a right wing bushie in disguise?<br><br>In any event, as it turns out the entire issue of RAT/MC activism, on global level is totally interwoven in "low politics" namely, in direct present time conflicts,<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong> spying</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> and lobbying.<br><br>Same goes in the UK/Belgium and US/CAnada. Women seem to be a mere token for both the traffickers and the "rescuers". not a pretty sight. or as Leonard Cohen puts it, the dove is always caught. <p></p><i></i>
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congressman

Postby darkbeforedawn » Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:49 pm

So who is the republican from Mi? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: congressman

Postby hava1 » Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:05 pm

<br><br>U.S. Congressman<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong> Mark Siljander </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> Congressman Siljander is a Republican representative from Michigan. He has led several delegations to the Middle East and has also served as an Official Delegate to the UN General Assembly.<br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: congressman

Postby hava1 » Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:10 pm

<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Brigadier General Mr. Khalid Kibriya General Kibriya serves as the Secretary-General for the Pakistan Red Crescent Society in Islamabad, Pakistan</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. He has also served with the United Nations Department of Peacekeeping Operations in New York.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> the other bedfella...<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.usfmep.org/board.htm">www.usfmep.org/board.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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hava

Postby blanc » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:21 am

just wondering where you are hava. is all well? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: hava

Postby hava1 » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:15 am

hey, i'm here, only less often, and only an hour ago resumed internet connection which was tempramental for 3 days (cat spilt coffee on modem). heat wave today in israel, ahhh, awfully hot and humid, its "high holidays", (new year, and thanks all for greetings <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :rolleyes --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> for jewish new year (a week ago).<br><br>sorry for not participating here, i sometimes read and nod or something. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: hava

Postby AlicetheCurious » Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:19 pm

Hi, Hava,<br><br>Sorry for not remembering the greetings (is it Yom Kippur?), the only Hebrew for happy holidays I know is shana tova (I have no idea if it's appropriate for other than New Year).<br><br>The big deal here is that Ramadan started a week ago -- I still go out for coffee with non-Muslims, but otherwise try to do my consuming at home.<br><br>We are also having one heck of a heat wave. Unbelievable. 42 degrees today.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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happy new year

Postby blanc » Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:34 pm

and a merry ramadan (last bit) <p></p><i></i>
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Re: happy new year

Postby hava1 » Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:17 pm

thanks, shana tova to you too ( greetings for new year), new year fell on same day as first ramadan day. yom kippur is in two days. heat suppose to break tomorrow night, its one of the worst ever. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: salwa kader ?

Postby Project Willow » Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:00 pm

I've been going back and forth between whether I should reply at all to this, or risk getting into a drawn out and possibly negative exchange with another survivor, someone with whom I've been generally supportive.<br><br>I am truly saddened to see this post. It is a condemnation of activists whom I know personally, whose work over the past decade on behalf of ra victims is not matched by any other in North America.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>THrough a canadian website/group i found out there will be a hearing in the UN about Ritual Abuse/torture, in the coming year. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>That's good news. <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It is not the first time that I find out Canada is fishing info for the UN - under the guise of human rights activism- and in particular with context of the ME, (see, the Arar case, as the most famous instance).<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>The Arar case has to do with rendition of a Canadian man mistaken to have connections to Al Qaeda. I don't get your point Hava.<br>You've got a group who want ra recognized as a real occurance and human rights violation, that's it. How did you make this leap to a fishing expedition? Was it just that they're collecting testimony? How can any activism on ra be done without collecting testimony?<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>In any event, as it turns out the entire issue of RAT/MC activism, on global level is totally interwoven in "low politics" namely, in direct present time conflicts, spying and lobbying.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Please be specific. We've discussed various incidences here where activism is compromised by operational subjects, and so-called advocates but this sweeping generalization needs more qualification. If we cannot trust anyone, then there's no point is there?<br><br>The subject title of this thread has no bearing, the group presenting to the panel has no control over who chairs it or to whom that person might be connected. What supposedly does the UN do with this fishing expedition? The UN work on ra has been ongoing for years, much of the testimony is submitted anonymously, and as far as I know there have been no repercusions. As for governments discovering the identity of an opponent's mc agents, there are much more effective ways of doing that. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: salwa kader ?

Postby hava1 » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:06 am

i certainly wasn't expecting negativity in fact I was expecting applause and a big thank you note, for alerting you that the moderator appears as a CIA front, well not even very well disguised, as her org is full with people who wreak CIA (the congressman is devout fundie, pat robertson/moonie connections, its just all over; and the Pakistani guy, etc. she might be handled, or part of it, doesn't matter). I certainly woudn't want to take my case (possibly CIA perps in my situation) to <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>their</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> panel, unless its an official compensation tribunal, if such will ever exist, by the CIA to its mc victims. <br>---<br>As for the status of the canadian intermediaries, I am willing to suspend judgment on whether they are willing patsies or ...something else, and it doesn't matter, so I will retreat but didn't say the activity should be stopped. Rather, participants should be advised with big letters who the moderator is. And why not move to replace her with, say, a delegate from Denmark ? where there are less chances for perps pulling the strings. Just an idea, for free.<br><br>My experience with Canadian innocent looking human rights org is BAD, and I have stated it in all opportunities; it was a front, and they turn people to the CIA, which kind of makes sense cause they are in perfect position to bait complainants/refugees of CIA atrocities. Arar was renditioned based on LIES made up by RCMP, and the NDP presented it as bona fide mistake with the CIA being the bad guys, it turns out the NDP too, has an agenda, and it doesnt necessarily include the benefit of the arab/s involved, certainly not some half wit Israeli victim of CIA torture. (me)<br>The world IS ugly, especially if one has had the misforture of being tracked by such orgs/circumstances. I cannot afford to trust, as the one time I did, cost me dearly, and my son has not recovered (and I don't believe he ever will) from the arrest, he was picked up separately from childcare by agents in police car who told him that his mom has gone to prison for a long time and so they are going to take him to a very nice new mom. He is still terrified all the time, and has nightmares about canadian cops catching him and killing me). Let's not be over gullible, and for all practical matters, this website/board could also be instrumental for CIA looking for "problems" and handling them before they materialize into public arena. <br><br>OK, so I will not be holding my breath for the flowers. Happy new year, PW, we are just mulling issues over, and I didn't know there were "off limits" topics. I thought we share the interest of protecting survivors and giving them their "day in court" or raising awareness. I don't see how my post is in any way contradictory to these goals, but I am willing to hear. <br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>As for governments discovering the identity of an opponent's mc agents, there are much more effective ways of doing that.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>such as ?</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> <br><br>It appears more like the "perps are keeping the herd in check", rather than sale of info, but I am not even sure about that, as I cannot really map the moderator and her dubious friends, they certainly don't seem like friends of survivors of any nationality.<br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hava1>hava1</A> at: 9/30/06 1:23 am<br></i>
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Re: salwa kader ?

Postby Project Willow » Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:04 am

Hava, I cannot attest to the sincerity of those in charge of the panel, just the group persenting on behalf of ra survivors to them, two of which are Canadian. These are private Canadian citizens who've chosen to be activists on the issue of ra. They are not government shills, but they will accept support where it is offered.<br><br>These are activists who are making inroads in any way they can, in a venue they think is important to their cause. I support their activities.<br><br>I sympathize with your experience regarding your son and Canadian authorities. I do not belive this activist group has any connections to those actions whatsoever. These are just citizens, not connected with any authority or government institution.<br><br>I think the separation is extremely important, between the group presenting, and the panel and any kind of government backing. I can forward your concerns about the people running the tribunal, I believe that would be helpful information.<br><br>More effective ways of keeping track of mc operatives would be to subject them to questioning or fmri's. That's pretty simple. At this date, authorities knowledgable in the practice of TBMC should be able to detect operatives upon capture. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: salwa kader ?

Postby hava1 » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:26 pm

I wrote to them myself with some of my earlier concerns of politization, and i will follow up with the Kader issue, and my full argument. But surely, the issue deserves discussion at other groups/fora who cooperate with the panel or plan to lobby there. I think the ideal situation would be for someone like myself to become directly informed and then to be able to comment on strategic assertions to be raised or on names of participants and in general re asylum claims based on RA, and the risks involved, especially where diplomatic considerations are accented (namely, a country like Israel draws attention, also is more edgy re exposure of social problems, issue of antisemitism involved in alleging RA, interfaith issues, etc.). there is a host of issues, and I am concerned to see that the chairperson of the panel is a lady whose org hosts <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>religious fundamentalists</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> from both christian and moslem denominations while there are complaints submitted from ISrael, at least that's what I was told. <br><br>The canadian group apparently was introduced to the UN person via a politician who is active in ME issues on behalf of canada, so the matter is immersed in politics, it has to be fairly covered and represented. IMHO. i would gladly review any assertions (not statements) submitted, with a view of israeli/jewish sensitivities, and protection of the victims' rights to not become scapegoated either by the panel, the advocates and MORE so, by the Israeli gov if it happened to feel dipomatically compromised by the presentation.<br><br>The reason I propose to do that is mainly cause i've experienced all the pitfalls this issue can produce on the international level. However, as I said, i will find the knowledge of <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>someone else doing same, reassuring as well.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->As for detection methods, you are correct, at least i know about MRI (and ct), but that's only after the suspect's identity has been tipped off. governments don't run mri on all entering foreigners to their country, there has to be pre knowledge and that's obtained through humint, including internet and the usual intel work, to which I was referring, and which I know is done professionally in Canada, by so called human rights/torture NGO's as well.<br>A name based data pool of RA victims is valuable ! for various goals, namely, bad goals, which can make it very attractive for a variety of bad orgs/people. I also think that Israeli RA victims are especially of interest (in the negative sense), either with an eye to politics and even on 'religoius' or even 'ritual' grounds.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: salwa kader ?

Postby Project Willow » Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:22 pm

I'm trying to wrap my head around this terrible danger you see. If I understand you correctly, the possibility of being labeled a potential mc vic/operative would expose you to danger from groups or factions that are acting against the dominent western intelligence/perp network which controls most of us. Given that I don't travel abroad and have not been active in foreign operations, I have much more to fear from former handlers. They know exactly where I am, they don't need a fishing expedition.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>governments don't run mri on all entering foreigners to their country, there has to be pre knowledge and that's obtained through humint, including internet and the usual intel work, to which I was referring, and which I know is done professionally in Canada, by so called human rights/torture NGO's as well.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Writing here on this board has achieved the same thing.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>A name based data pool of RA victims is valuable ! for various goals, namely, bad goals, which can make it very attractive for a variety of bad orgs/people.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>You're assuming the actual names and addresses of survivors are being distributed. Again, what would these supposed bad groups and orgs do with the information? <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I also think that Israeli RA victims are especially of interest (in the negative sense), either with an eye to politics and even on 'religoius' or even 'ritual' grounds.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>About the political issue, how can one country be singled out if they are accepting reports of ra from all over the world? What do you mean by ritual grounds? Are you afraid of accessing by cult groups there who otherwise would not know of your background?<br><br>What form of activism do you propose if there is no testimony from survivors? If we cannot network and speak to each other, if we cannot trust any group who takes our claims seriously? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: salwa kader ?

Postby hava1 » Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:48 pm

i think you should do what you are doing, but be mindful.<br><br>yes, i also think this board should have better caveats to survivors, as to potential risks in letting their hair down, cause there are risks involved. I also think that internet can be especially risky for mc (perhaps rat ?) victims, and the technologies now can create access via internet. So, yes, not to stop communicating but certainly to establish safety rules, which address the average victim, including people who are triggered.<br><br>However, my point in the post was different, and specifically looking into the contamination of activism with politics, and more specifically the ME. Obviously, since I am from there (and did travel a lot both within programs and privately), I have my own perspective, which others might not place high on the agenda. its my duty to speak for my perspective, and yours to do your thing. I don't find it conflicting. IMHO, when the advocacy/activism is somehow bound with ME politics, it usually turns out bad for the entire issue, but that's just my sense of it, might be wrong on that. I just don't see why it has to be that way. <br><br>practical points -<br>1. group should disclose the identity/agenda of the panelist before soliciting statements, at least from certain regions. Create distinction bn group and panel, perhaps retain some statements without submitting them, if this is inappropriate.<br>2. This board should add specific caveat (in the rules or somwhere) to alert victims of MC/ RAt/TOrture of potential misues of internet by perps.<br>3. panelist better be removed, or asked to be replaced by delegate of neutral member state (well, technically this is an american, but you know what I mean, on second thought preferably not american, too.).<br>4. entanglements with ME politics should be avoided.<br>5. canadians would do better addressing their own victims/laws, but if this is an international panel/issue, why not invite other reps from other countries to speak for themselves. it is quite odd that one member state collects data from the world, so to speak. RAT was addressed in similar panel, under the Child Prostitution sub committee, in the DUtroux case, when Louf was invited to speak up. I wonder why there is a parallel discussion in two different committees, both dealing with sex crimes status of women trafficking etc. Perhaps its just bureaucracy, or maybe regional division, i have no idea.<br><br>PW, no need to be defensive, I am trying to figure out what is going on, and I am raising my concerns, this does not bind others. <br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hava1>hava1</A> at: 9/30/06 3:24 pm<br></i>
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