Lyndon Larouche

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Re: I'm totally against hitting people with baseball bats.

Postby chiggerbit » Sat Sep 24, 2005 10:15 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>beating up communists with baseball bats<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br><br>Trying to remember what I heard about those days, third-hand information. Heard it about the other side, though, American commie groups that would attend certain kinds of public gatherings with the intention of engaging in violence, almost like a sport. It sounded very organized. <p></p><i></i>
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LaRouche and the British Monarchy

Postby antiaristo » Sat Sep 24, 2005 10:40 am

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>It's that it was the restatement of the core Larouche tenets...and they are so idiosyncratic that I've just not seen them taken seriously outside of his organization. The idea that it is the British monarchy controlling the US, causing the civil war, being bravely opposed by FDR...I don't know that there is harm in these ideas (other than profound misdirection) but they are unique. This was what prompted my question.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br><br>DreamsEnd,<br>I had a feeling that this was at the root of your attack.<br>I must say, having diagnosed a Nelsonian blind eye in the past, I was far too polite.<br>You claim you want the truth. <br>DreamsEnd, there are two affidavits sworn by me in the Data Dump; sworn long before I had even heard of LaRouche. Neither is derivative: both are highly personal.<br>You’ve complained in the past that there is too much to read.<br>Ignore the rest. Fine. The ramblings of a lunatic? OK.<br>But I’m sure you know the penalties for swearing a false affidavit.<br><br>I don’t know what sort of game you are playing, because broadly speaking your other posts are highly informative and interesting.<br>But your approach here is a problem. Because LaRouche is correct about the British Monarchy, and you go round like a skirmisher to protect them. You say he is unique – so you want to exterminate that line of thought? What happened to diversity?<br>Indeed you dedicate an entire thread to this end.<br><br>Are YOU a Zionist? I know the Battenbergs created the Christian Zionists (aka Scottish Rite Freemasons). And I know you habitually conflate anti Zionism with anti-Semitism.<br><br>MY agenda is to get my children back. There is a hole in my existence that can never be filled.<br>What is YOUR agenda?<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm9.showMessage?topicID=7.topic">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...ID=7.topic</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Post 139        First Affidavit<br>Post 140        Second Affidavit<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: LaRouche and the British Monarchy

Postby Dreams End » Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:07 am

Thank you, antiaristo, for pointing out the core affidavits in that rather large collection.<br><br>I am not trying to "exterminate the line of thought" as a careful reading of what I posted will make clear. I said that this line of thought was idiosyncratic to Larouche, and, as such, I asked the poster if he was part of the organization. I said that if he said no, I would leave it at that. How this amounts to "exterminating thought" I don't know. <br><br>Once again, I caution people to differentiate between challenging a belief in a forum such as this and "gatekeeping". I have no power, nor even desire, to get people to stop posting things I don't agree with. However, I do have the right to post my own opinions. <p></p><i></i>
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More on Larouche

Postby Dreams End » Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:19 pm

Hi there, folks.<br><br>Well, there is an awful lot of reading to do on Larouche. I'm doing just that. The problem I'm having is that the best info so far is from a guy named Dennis King. Unfortunately, King has worked with Chip Berlet...and I think that would call into question his materials (He also seems to have political viewpoints in general that I would disagree with.) He, however, has a book on Larouche and a very large collection of information on both Larouche and Fred Newman of the New Alliance Party. Much of his info comes from source documents, including memos leaked out of the Larouche organization. Unfortunately, he doesn't have scans of the originals available, so I can't confirm that he didn't simply make it all up. Given the sheer volume and internal consistency of this material, I think this highly unlikely.<br><br>I'm going to simply start with these few quotes from early Larouche. These are reprinted at the Center for Media and Democracy. I'm not REAL familiar with them, so if you have concerns about them as a source, let me know.<br><br>Here's some quotes from old Larouche publications. I don't know how to get ahold of the original publications, but maybe some of you have access.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Lyndon_LaRouche#LaRouche.2C_Racism.2C_and_Antisemitism">www.sourcewatch.org/index...tisemitism</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Racism<br><br> "Can we imagine anything more viciously sadistic than the Black Ghetto mother?"<br><br> Internal memo - Lyndon H. LaRouche, NCLC 1973. <br><br> "Jazz was foisted on black Americans by the same oligarchy which had run the U.S. slave trade, with the help of the classically trained but immoral George Gershwin and the Paris-New York circuit of drug-taking avant-garde artists."<br><br> "The Racist Roots of Jazz", Back Cover, The Campaigner, September-October 1980 <br><br> "The paranoid, so approximating the lower animal species, is relatively lacking in such sense of human identity and is, to a corresponding degree, incapable of sustaining a stable guiding moral structure for his behavior. <br><br> "The paranoid state is characteristic of the “village commune’,’ culture. Objectively, the model “oriental village commune” is characterized by the fixing of the mode of production with a rigidity paralleling the behavioral stagnation of lower animal life. Worse, the culture evolved in reconciling the victims of such a dead-end culture to that animal-like state.... <br><br> All the cognitive and related cultural achievements of capitalist development in music, philosophy, and so forth, are symptomatically denounced as “Western” in favor of the philosophical and cultural ideological relics of pre-1949 China’s long barbarian past. Out of this hideous muck comes first a reactionary, actually counterrevolutionary rejection of the working class...."<br><br> The Campaigner, (Journal of the National Caucus of Labor Committees), Vol. 8, No. 8, August 1975, pp. 5-40. <br><br>[edit]<br>Antisemitism<br><br> "Judaism is the religion of a caste of subjects of Christianity, entirely molded by ingenious rabbis to fit into the ideological and secular life of Christianity. In short, a selfsustaining Judaism never existed and never could exist. As for Jewish culture otherwise, it is merely the residue left to the Jewish home after everything saleable has been marketed to the Goyim."<br><br> "The Case of Ludwig Feuerbach", Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr., (under pen name L. Marcus), The Campaigner, December 1973 <br><br>"America must be cleansed for its righteous war by the immediate elimination of the Nazi Jewish Lobby and other British agents from the councils of government, industry, and labor."<br><br> "A War-winning Strategy", Editorial, New Solidarity, March 1978 <br><br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>This one site alone has a lot to digest, as does Dennis King's site at:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://dennisking.org/">dennisking.org/</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>I would invite you too look around his site, as I am, but since I'm the one who revealed his Berlet link, please don't accuse me of being part of that little nexus...whatever the truth about them may be. I'm looking for material there that is from other sources or is something I can confirm. <br><br>He also has a horrible editorial on the Village Voice on this site, condemning them for attacking America by daring to suggest that 9/11 might have been a result of US policy, thereby weakening America's "resolve to fight." So, full disclosure...his politics suck. I'm looking for better sources but he has a lot of material he's collected.<br><br>There's also a LOT at this site on Fred Newman, who operates in a fashion so similar to Larouche that I simply have to think they work for the same folks. If folks get interested in Newman, we should start another thread about him and his activities. In some ways he's more dangerous as he has a series of "mental health clinics" across the country that naturally prescribe involvement with their politics as part of their therapy.<br><br>One thing I can guarantee is that this is the very tip of a very large iceberg. <br><br>In more recent times, Larouche's public pronouncements have been couched in anti-fascist terms and with his decrying "anti-semtism" itself. In time it will become clear, however, that this is just the latest manifestation of the chameleon. Meanwhile, I think the above quotes get at his real ideology. <br><br>All for now. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: More on Larouche

Postby dbeach » Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:36 pm

There is a war going on and people change theri minds..I am Inde..who voted Regan in 1980 mea culpa mea culpa and then voted alternate candidates til 2004 when I voted for kerry.. mea culpa mea culpa<br><br>SO I am a chameleon too plus I intend to support<br> Karl B. Shcwarz in 2008 if we make it there<br><br>I am now Dem in name only<br><br>OK So LaRouche is a mixed bag to me but is he playing a game by cheney bashing calling cheney" the beast man??"<br><br>EIR has nice info about Leo strauss who helped plan the overthrow of the govt with the neo-cons at U Chicago in early 70 s..and they have succeeded and its back to world at war and the USA is an occupied nation..BUT they are all criminals according to the US Constitution <p></p><i></i>
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LaRouche

Postby robertdreed » Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:13 pm

Most of what has been brought up about LaRouche, I've already heard. I've read Dennis King's <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> years ago. The information appeared to be well-sourced and reliable. It included photos of helmeted and club-wielding LaRouchies invading a Left organization meeting, although I don't remember the specific name of the group. <br><br>The mere fact that Dennis King and Chip Berlet are co-founders of Political Research Associates doesn't discredit everything they write. Same with the LaRouchies and EIR. But it's a good idea to seek corroboration, and form one's own independent opinions about the context and interpretations, based on a wider reading of history. <br><br>I still don't have a fix on LaRouche. My best guess is that he's a brilliant crank with a tendency toward megalomania, one of its aspects being a theory-of-everything political ideology. The more charismatic of these types are typical of the personalities who assemble Crisis Cults (an insightful discussion of which can be found in Weston LaBarre's <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Ghost Dance: Origins Of Religion</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->. )<br><br>LaRouche strikes me as quite intelligent. I admire his erudition. But he's got at least a few bugs in his ear. Anyone who characterizes the the genius of Duke Ellington as "degenerate" has got a hole in their bucket. LaRouche is also one of the adherents to the "theory" (which I think originated with John "Committee of 300" Coleman" that John Lennon's lyrics were penned by Theodore Adorno, on behalf of the Tavistock Institute. Nutso. ( Those who have actually read Adorno's paper considering the phenomenon of pop music in the Broadcast Era should recognize it as merely sociological reportage, not the "blueprint for mind control" alleged by know-nothing cultural reactionaries. That paper is no more evidence of "conspiracy" than the musings of social commentators like Vance Packard or Paul Fussell. )<br><br>In at least one source- an appendix to Jack Herer's book-length polemic on cannabis hemp, <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>The Emperor's Clothes</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->, I read some reprinted material by Dana Beal, alleging that LaRouche is ex-OSS. <br><br>I have questions not only about LaRouche, but about the prolific output of EIR, particularly its more well-known writers and spokespeople, like Jeffrey Steinberg and Webster Tarpley. Are they gung-ho LaRouchies, or are they simply latching on to the organization to ride the gravy train of its resources? What's their agenda? Are they doing high-grade disinfo? How much of <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>The Unauthorized Biography of George Bush</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> is spurious, or outright witting falsehood? For instance, did George H. W. Bush really have a "secret treaty" meeting with the Japanese during his service in the Pacific Theatre in the midst of WW2? Where's the corroboration of this? <br><br>I note that LaRouche assumed the pose of being Democrat-Clinton-friendly, during the 1990s. I think he and his publications still pump up the Democratic Party on occasion, these days. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 9/24/05 12:33 pm<br></i>
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Re: LaRouche

Postby Dreams End » Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:19 pm

I happen to have a copy of Emperor Wears No Clothes but had no idea that was in there...I'll take a look.<br><br>This matches the quote in the Washington Post:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Some LaRouche associates were trained in the use of guns, knives and other weapons at a "counterterrorism" school in Powder Springs, Ga., according to former members and other sources. The school was operated by Mitchell WerBell III, a former guerrilla operative for the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) and an international arms dealer with whom LaRouche grew close.<br><br>WerBell, a soldier of fortune with contacts around the world, introduced LaRouche and his followers to numerous military and intelligence officials, according to ex-associates and other sources.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Maybe EWNC is just quoting the same article though.<br><br>As for Mop-up...way too well sourced...plus a friend of mine was in NYC at the time. That happened and the Larouchians wrote about it in their own publications.<br><br>Edit: No index in this book...clue as to where that appears?<br><br>Also, I don't know who Daryl Steinberg is, but Jeffrey Steinberg of EIR makes appearances on behalf of Larouche. <br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=dreamsend@rigorousintuition>Dreams End</A> at: 9/24/05 12:23 pm<br></i>
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my mistake

Postby robertdreed » Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:32 pm

You're right, that's Jeffrey Steinberg. <br><br>Daryl Steinberg is my local Assemblyperson. <br><br>I'll correct that, apologies all around. ;^0 <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 9/24/05 12:34 pm<br></i>
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Re: LaRouche

Postby Dreams End » Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:33 pm

Found the Beals stuff, but it's unuseable, unfortunately. Herer must have been high when he put together the appendix at the end, because he has several articles from her, but all cut off before the end, usually in mid sentence.<br><br>She does not source any of her allegations but they are interesting: larouche involved in the "war on drug" crowd...but the info is too choppy for me to make sense of it. <p></p><i></i>
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Still crazy after all these years...

Postby proldic » Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:33 pm

I believe the one thing about the LaRouche success is it's not due to his great pr skill at all. In fact the idea that he still got game w/ people despite his kook labeling (self-imposed) and being Berlet & King's raisond'etre (sp) for so long, is that so much of his success is due to the US left/opposition simply dropping the ball, and not taking important issues up (purposely led-away from, imo).<br><br>Like he seemed to be the only one (not including obscure commies) who were talking about the "planned shrinkage" and "forced downsizing" when it was happening, specifically in NYC in the '70's, probably one of the most imporatant suppressed truths we should be talking about.<br><br>So what we don't deal with, he gets to taint. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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DE, for the record...

Postby robertdreed » Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:36 pm

Dana Beal is a male. He's one of the original Yippies. <br><br>That material in Herer's book seems to be simply poorly photocopied excerpts from a manuscript of Beals' that was unfinished at the time of publication. It's "usable" for research leads, if nothing else. <br><br>I'm restraining myself from going into High Dudgeon over the slandering of cannabis users...any time the slightest mistake is found in their output, the tired canard "they must have been high" gets repeated. And just as often, the accusation has been hurled at people who are proponents of policies like alternative energy sources, as a way of short-circuiting all further discussion. And see where that's landed us. <br><br>Yeah, like the rest of you are all models of probity...at least I got through college without resorting to plagiarism, unlike Democratic Party Drug War jihadist Joe Biden. <br><br>Anyone who's lived in the USA knows that political apathy here is by no means the exclusive province of cannabis users...in fact, when balanced against our historic status of near-complete disqualification for holding public office, I think our track record is better than average. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 9/24/05 12:54 pm<br></i>
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Re: Still crazy after all these years...

Postby Dreams End » Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:38 pm

Interesting you bring that up. I was looking up the Colombo Accords which you mentioned in another thread, proldic. That actual term must not be quite right, but I assume you meant a 1975 or 76 meeting of the Non-Alligned Movement? <br><br>don't have all the details yet, but Larouche is claiming credit for, and indeed, is being credited with (such as in a piece at "questionsquestions") a debt forgiveness proposal which seems to be central to that meeting. <br><br>He's claimed credit for lots of other things, such as the "star wars" Strategic Defense Initiative, but this claim seems to be supported by others. Was that your understanding of the situation? <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Still crazy after all these years...

Postby Dreams End » Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:44 pm

Oh, yeah...Larouche definitely hits the "planned shrinkage" theme...which I think is legitimate. Unsourced (so far) material that I've read suggests, though, that his concern is that the good guys "industrial capitalists" want growth and the bad guys, "finance capitalists" (i.e. usurers) want the zero growth. You may recognize this distinction and it's coded reference. <br><br>Naturally, the finance capitalists are all controlled out of Britain and tied into the monarchy. I'm also reading that all of the British monarchy bits are really code for "jews" but I can't see how that would be, unless you posit that the royal family are Jewish...an unlikely possibility. Still looking into that. <br><br>He also goes after the Anglican Church, and calls them "charismatic" and "pentacostal". Having been to services of charismatics, I assure you the Anglicans are not. He suggests they have taken over the US churches for the most part. I will grant that WASP elites due tend to like the Episcopal church, but I don't think that's what he's saying. Claims Pat Robertson is a British agent for example.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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LaRouche

Postby robertdreed » Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:22 pm

Yeah, that's LaRouche all right...just when it seems like he's saying something sensible, it's Wingnut City.<br><br>I've often mulled over the idea that LaRouche has constructed his persona as a masterstroke of disinformative technique, on behalf of "superior authorities" who are unknown to me. <br><br>If so, he deserves an Emmy or an Oscar, for staying in-character...I say that as someone who's read more than a few of his stem-winding rambles, which tend to devolve inevitably toward him rocking away on his pet hobbyhorses, ideologically and philosophically speaking.<br><br>In the usual case, I'm eventually overwhelmed by the sheer quantity of the verbiage LaRouche generates in a given essay, and give up reading before reaching the end of a given polemic. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: LaRouche

Postby Dreams End » Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:34 pm

sorry about the cannabis slander, there RR. Was supposed to be a joke. We have some "medicinal herb" around here, as well, though I no longer use it...for some weird reasons it's one of the things that can trigger panic attacks in me. Kinda paradoxical. helps my wife's headaches at times, though.<br><br>And there were leads in the Beals material. Just hard to follow the articles as printed.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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