Levanda on Wiesenthal

[Seventhsonjr]

I believe that the idea that he was husband of the ppsychologist was wrong and proven so here about a month ago by a simple google.<br><br>The problem with dealing with the issue of "collaboration" is that , even if you are Jewish, you are immediately labelled as "antiSemitic" or a self-hating Jew. My father, a nonJew, worked with the Jewish underground to rescue Jews during the Holocaust (which is why I went to Israel for an exhibit on these rescuers at Yad Vashem). As such, his insights on the subject of such collaboration was very useful, but colored by his own biases at times.<br><br>I think that Hannah Arndt's "Eichmann In Jerusalem" provides a very useful lesson on this subject. While her position was that the Jewish Capos and Judenrat (Jewish Councils who actually assisted the Nazis in preparing their communities for deportation to the camps) had no or little choice in the matter and cannot be blamed, she was attacked by a very powerful propaganda machine for even raising the issue and discussing it at all.<br><br>Because Israel struck me as a very open and westernized society in many ways, where such ideas can at least be discussed (and are discussed at length by the left and by the youth of the country) maybe it is easier to discuss there than here in the US, where, as a nonJew, talking about it gets you labelled as "dangerous" to Israel's security as an antiSemite.<br><br>By the Way, John Loftus essentially told me during a dinner he invited me to, that his perspective was that Israel was essentially a client state of the US --- in other words Israel is very much like a colony of the US --- and that , despite its relative autonomy, what happens there is coordinated with the economic and corporate powers that be which use Israel for their own ends.<br><br>This corresponds with my own view of Israel as a western colony with Israelis essentially very much a colonized society who are oppressed by their puppetr government just as Americans are to a large degree today. Hence the idea that Israel is very much like a ghetto built by the same architects of the Shoah, run by the same corporate fascists (IBM, Chase Bank, Exxon, Morgan bank, Ig Farben etc.,) and that in many waysd Sharon et al are very much like the Judenrat and Mossad and the military are like the Capos.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[israelirealities]

Well we seem to agree on the basics.<br>Your assumption that this can be discussed here is very wrong. While you might be accused as Antisemite, here it is the people with a stake in the continuation of this situation. And they are worst and they have much more power over the ISraelis here than your government has over you there. Plus, and a fairly recent phenomenon which I find appalling is that Israelis who dissent from government are labled "antisemites" as well. eg daniel barenbaum etc., and even people who are basically mainstream. <br>I also think that Arendt's book sums it up correctly. Mind you, she was basically censured here in Israel, this book was translated only two years ago....! after huge debate and namecalling. The average Israeli would not be familiar with this books and others that were similarly censured. Even people like Eyal Sivan, and Israeli film maker, a sabra etc., who made a film on the Eichman trial, with some critique and based on this book, was banned here and attacked and recently also almost implicated in criminal offense, by the national archives. (it was dropped, but the chiling effect was there...). <p></p><i></i>

[Seventhsonjr]

I was not aware of that. But maybe when I was there, when things seemed hopeful and were pretty quiet, before Sharon went to the Temple Mount etc., people spoke openly.<br><br>It is hard to believe that Hannah Arendt was not available there or that the Eichmann trial documentary was stifled due to the dangers of discussing these things openly.<br><br>Just mind boggling.<br><br>But clearly there is a love of Israel and a Nationalistic fervor which runs like a current through the whole nation (just as in any new state "liberated" from oppression). And perhaps this current causes a mindset which makes discussing such issues seem treasonous (at least that was the emotion I felt when I touched on some of these subjects, like the association of Israel's diamond industry with Apartheid South Africa, for example, or the "deal" with the Rockefellers and Ben Gurion).<br><br>Anyway, I am glad to have your perspective on these issues as a sounding board and glad to know that there are Israelis who understand the perspective.<br><br>History is full of people betraying their own people, and this is true in Israel as it is everywhere.<br><br>Acknowledging and facing it is just common sense. But it can be a dangerous occupation, I imagine, when the opposition sees death as the only reward for such sentiments or ideas if they threaten their power. <p></p><i></i>

[robertdreed]

One of the problems in regard to collaboration and the "capos" was that the condition of incarceration led to a situation whereby the criminal predators within the Jewish population, having already had experience in jail environments, knew the tricks of how to "adapt" to the ruthlessness of the environment better than anyone else. Hence, they often held an elevated status in the camps. This is alluded to in Primo Levi's <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Survival In Auschwitz</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->. <p></p><i></i>

[israelirealities]

Just one thing that needs to be clarified. traditionally, it was Likkud that opposed the deals that Ben gurion made, and they had huge demontrations back then, and resented this "pragmatic approach". Additionally, as the more "nationalistic" party, they were less inclined, in the past, to see US involvement as positive, and viewed any foreign pressure with suspicion. However, Sharon is originally Labor (hawks) who joined the revisionists and now you have the Likkud you know, which is very different from the original movement. Due to American "colonization tactics" now both parties are obeying the masters in Washington, actually competing who is jumping into the loops, better and faster.<br>While it would be reasonable that Israel will not be a "free soceity" at this stage, I am disappointed with the American public who couldn't care less, not about those atoricities in the USA and those committed outside, as in Israel, but probably everywhere. <br>I witnessed the kind of marginalization and tacit censorship on news like the Nigerian Trovan experiments, and any news and commentary dealing with corporate accountability. I did a brief internship with a non profit radio station, dealing with these issues, and they had to deal with marginalization that amounted to censorship (the same kind of non official, non formalized censorship as in Israel). <br>I explored some of the activities in DC, by activists to try and place some kind of supervision on US based corporated and their FDA approvals (of human experimentation), it was pathetic, and there was very little interest. (who cares, its non americans who die out there). More frustrating was for me to find out that the few activists were mostly Jewish people (not religious or so) who would NOT here anything about ISrael, so in fact there was no way to raise the issues of corporate abuses, happening in ISrael by American corporation, because of this vicious two edged sword - the corporate interest to silence it AND the misgiuded "loyalty" of people who think that by NOT exploring it they are "defending" Israel...its extremely annoying.<br> <p></p><i></i>

[Project Willow]

Thanks Seventhson and Israelirealities for all the information. <br>This opens up another area of study for me.<br><br>About twinning, I believe Annie Mckenna writes about it in her book <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Paperclip Dolls</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->. Other than that, published sources are probably few, but it's a fairly common programming tactic.<br> <p></p><i></i>

[israelirealities]

I think the camp capos were not a major factor, although their story triggers anger, disgust and awe. The more problematic betrayal is the leadership, the Judenrat and those who held positions of power over whole communities. Those who were already in Auschwitz were doomed anyway, so people acted like animals. I recently watched a touching documentary, filmed in Israel fairly recently (filmmaker Daniel Siton) whose title was "Capo", and he researched what happened to them in the early days of the state of ISrael. Some were charged in court, and sent to prison, some were encouraged to leave and immigrated, etc. He interviewed several famous capos who now reside in Australia or the USA (leading a nice comfortable life) and they give their excuses and explanations. He also interviewed survivors who testified and charged their Capos, in Israeli courts, and they also seem convincing. Its a tough one. Some of the survivors claim that if Jews refused to act as Capos, perhaps some people would have been killed first, but the machinary would stop, or at least be seriously slowed down. I don't know enough about it.<br>Generally, the Israeli courts were very (too ?) lenient in these criminal cases, because the judges were Israelis who weren't there, and didn't know how to deal with this entire messy situation. They just wanted it to "go away". <br>Seeing what happens now in Israel I can see how this is happening. The process of corruption is gradual and sophisticated, criminal elements are "promoted" in politics and civil service and especially in security services, and gradually you have the state under a seige. <br>It is all shown quite accurately, in "the quiet american", re Vietnam. The CIA always chooses a general, a local rep, who is a criminal, ruthless and corrupt to the bones. They "elevate him" and back him, till he is in power and then he is doing the rest of the job. In ISrael I can think of several such planted generals/security officials (and their sponsors in politics), who were promoted about 20 years ago, and paved the way for the corporations, and put the country under terror. WIthin a generation, the country changes, and you already have an entire structure of terror, that serves the foreign corporations and not the people. While they are in fact traitors who sell their people (literally sometimes), they have the position to say who is loyal and who isn't, namely, they call the shots in internal security. This is very sophisticated process and brutal too, and I can't see, now, how it can be averted, before a grand disaster happening again. <br> <p></p><i></i>

[Seventhsonjr]

Israeli realities says: "<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>More frustrating was for me to find out that the few activists were mostly Jewish people (not religious or so) who would NOT here anything about ISrael, so in fact there was no way to raise the issues of corporate abuses, happening in ISrael by American corporation, because of this vicious two edged sword - the corporate interest to silence it AND the misgiuded "loyalty" of people who think that by NOT exploring it they are "defending" Israel...its extremely annoying.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->"<br><br>This really gets to the root of the problem as I see it as a nonJew who desperately feels that honest dialogue can resolve many of thse issues in Israel/Palestine and elsewhere. But in Jerusalem, whether we like it or not, the issue comes to the ultimate religious head.<br><br>I have found that many Jews with whom I discuss politics can readily address these issues objectively and with an open mind. However the leadership and the really active Jewish or proIsraeli political organizations do not allow much public and open discussion of these issues as they are discussed by individuals. There is a similar analogy to our discussions here or at Democratic Underground or the new board I post on Progressive independent (where a lot of DUers who are fed up with DU or been banned post now). WE discuss many of these issues, but the mainstream media and folks in general are still only half awake -- shocked by how quickly America is deteriorating under Bush. The leadership is mealy-mouthed and procorporate and proNationalism and so the real issues never really get aired.<br><br>My point is that it is more than annoying that there is a chilling of this kind of speech here and in Israel. It is deadly. It is dangerous. It is suicidal not to discuss these issues because UNLESS we can confront the perpetrators and speak the truth about this history, we will never be able to overcome that legacy of betrayal and treason and crimes against humanity.<br><br>If we are silent because it is not "patriotic" or may be allegedly damaging to our respective nations (Israel and the US), then we are dooming our families and our countries to more of the same; more death and destruction and loss of our fundamental rights.<br><br>Patriotism MEANS speaking out against tyranny and abuses of power, even at the risk of our own lives.<br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[robertdreed]

Thank you for showing up. Your reading of the situation is very much appreciated. It's quite disquieting to find that the same sort of deal that have been made in Third World satrapies have been made in my country, the USA. And it isn't very reassuring to find that they've also been made in yours.<br><br>What's your take on the influence of organized crime syndicates in Israel? Including the influence of non-Jewish Russians...I've heard that there are hundreds of thousands of non-Jewish Russians who emigrated from the Soviet Union in the past 20 years or so, including some with connections to the Russian mafiyas. A lot of document forgery, and perhaps corruption in the immigration department, and I don't know what else...I'm not sure if they're getting in on the pretext of Aliyah, or if there are other provisions that allow so many non-Jewish emigrants from the former Soviet Union to either settle in Israel, or use it as a transit nation to get easier access to other nations, like the USA. <br><br>Seventhson, I hope that you're doing well...I guess that you're still guarding your identity and whereabouts, and from the background you've given, you sound as if you have quite atory. I hope that you and your family are settled and safe. <p></p><i></i>

[Seventhsonjr]

Thanks back, Mr. Reed. I am never sure if I am safe, and I plan to unveil my identity when I am ready to promote my book. The powers that be are aware of me and I fortunately have some good connections which help to protect me. Mostly I stay anononymous online to prevent the crazies from making me a target.<br><br>The official crazies seem to have backed off after getting me banned by badjacketing me at DU with the implict help of Will Pitt and the failure of skinner to protect his board from right wing operatives by failing to check my bona fides when I revealed my identity to him. But, oh well. I post here and progressive independent and feel my stuff is reaching enough folks so I am content.<br><br>As for the issue of organized crime in Israel, as here, the problem is that with shadow spooks manipulating the immigration etc of their operatives, there is plenty of opportunity for vile criminals to go to work for them and get in both here and Israel (or anywhere for that matter with their sophisticated ops providing IDs etc.)<br><br>The organized crime as well as the operational "intel" web are interlocked. Virtually one and the same. And with Eastern European and Russian agents willing to work for little pay to do nasty deeds and wetwork in the west, it is easy for them to be brought to Israel for such work and then on to the United States with the complicity of the intel ops. These guys are, to me, essentially what is known as "The Black Hand". Assassins who are merciless and dangerous.<br><br>Since the web of deceit crosses via the network of intel ops with organized crime (drugs, prostitution, weapons smuggling, etc.) and funding of illegal covert ops (illegal even in Israel, but useful to crooked politicians there as here in the US) the goal (not to mention elimination or neutraliziation of political opponents or stumbling blocks like Rabin) you can be sure that these networks are used extensively.<br><br>For example, to just point out one possible set of ops, look to the neutralization of Jim McGreevy by an Israeli intel operator who seduced him and brought him down for a homosexual liaison while he was married. Or the Israeli "art students" busted photographing the fall of the Twin Towers allegedly. Such ops may well be coordinated with Sharon and Bush/Cheney to serve their purposes to neutralize opposition and consolidate their power for purposes here in the US, in Israel, and to promote the Iraq war. And they may also be false flag ops designed to keep Israel as a convenient scapegoat.<br><br>I have my experiences and stories related to this which I may tell one day. But not now.<br><br>I think the book, "By Way of Deception" (Victor Ostrowsky?) and the fictional book which was a finalist some years back for the national Book Awarad, called "Damascus Gate" will provde good insights into these things.<br><br>My experiences in Israel made it clear to me that there was a very dangerous mercenary presence of Russians and Eastern Europeans (and Latin Americans too) who may be secular Jews used by shadow political intel services for whatever dirty means they want.<br><br>Maybe IsraeliRealities could give some perspective on this from inside the current situation? <p></p><i></i>

[israelirealities]

The only matter I wish to add to your comment (I am repeating it) is my concern that many of those sex toys, like the guy who brought down mcgreevy and the art students (not from the twin towers but the ones who were deported earlier allegedly for making contact with governmnent officials, and even personal contacts), is that these are far from being mossad/intel "ops" or agents, rather an israeli made MC victims, for this pro war alliance. From my perspective, Israel might be supplying the human flesh required for these dirty ops, and in that case this is a large scale human trafficking that goes unnotices and un=reported in ISrael. Ostrrovsky refers to this atrocity by the official name "swallows" or something like this. This is a major human rights issue, which should concern everyone opposed to the war and to this warmongering alliance you describe. I also think that if ISraeli public (the last to know anyhthing..) was informed, this would raise HELL here and cause major political upheaval.<br>There were several books published in the USA by victims of MC and such like, nobody would call them CIA ops, right ? so I keep wondering why this fact is overlooked with regards to Israel, is this antisemitism ? or is this a successful propaganda of my government ? and do you actually believe a guy like the one who got mcgreevy in trouble is "an agent" ? this is really stretching the term. I think it is american technology, israeli flesh and joint operations of dubious character. The way I read it, the technology of making people do those things was brought here from the USA, possibly with the brokering of Jewish Americans. This is a desease, and of course in a country like ours, it is easier to get away with it than it would be in the USA, I think. Now, Israel and american criminal-intelligence mafias are using the products for these operations, under the guise of "national security". <br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[Seventhson]

Israelirealities says: "<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>There were several books published in the USA by victims of MC and such like, nobody would call them CIA ops, right ? so I keep wondering why this fact is overlooked with regards to Israel, is this antisemitism ? or is this a successful propaganda of my government ? and do you actually believe a guy like the one who got mcgreevy in trouble is "an agent" ?</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>I suspect the guy with McGreevy was an agent of the extreme right, which has its tentacles in Israel and the US. Not necessarily an Israeli agent but a right wing fascist agent or a "swallow". I put Sharon, Bush and the Saudis all in that same basket and SOMEBODY (I believe the Bushes) are pulling the strings with help from the Saudis and Sharon's fascist backers here and there.<br><br>As for your question about antiSemitism: I do not fully understand it. I think many of the books here DO deal with CIA mind control, especially mkultra. Is the failure to ascribe such practices to Mossad or a shadow Mossad antiSemitic or underscoring that it is happening there in Israel and ignoring it here in the US antisemitic.<br><br>Can you clarify.<br><br>It seems we are in accord on most everything. But this confused me a little. <p></p><i></i>

[israelirealities]

I don't know this guy personally, but even if he were right wing family etc., I believe he was duped and rather young, to be an "agent". Namely, I think there is a practice developing here, of recruiting dupes, MC victims, namely people who have not been hired, do not have rights and are not aware of their role, to perform those dirty tasks, mainly in sexual trappings of political people or state officials and what not. You might be wrong about this guy, even if he has a well connected family, they do it to those people as well. <br>What I referred to as "antisemitic" was the fact that this rather widespread phenomenon is conveniently overlooked by American citizens and government. right or left. Whereas, with regards to ANY other nation, even the former USSR, the world acknowledged the fact that people are forced into activities they do not want to do and cannot be held accountable, rather should be helped, ONLY with regards to ISrael (and correct me if I am wrong, maybe tehre's another example) the working assumption of both right wing/left wing people, is that this really doesn't matter. Namely, who cares if those darn ISraelis are under coercion or MC, we treat them as willing and accountable "agents" of the most notorious organization in the world. I suspect that even NAzis, were treated with more understanding as to the inner workings of fascist regimes and particularly those organizations. <br>The ISraeli government exploits this treatment in that it makes it clear to anyone, they have nowhere to turn to, if they are forced into those situations, because nobody will protect them or heed the call. <br>The reason I said what I said about this guy, who you call right wing agent, is the following events in Israel., after his arrival. There are some indications, from the press, that he did not return as an "Agent" to his office, rather to more obscure fate. WHereas, people like the agents from New Zealand were greeted with a welcome. Now, this could be disinformation, but I doubt it.<br>You'd have to admit to some inconsistency in treating ISrael and the Mossad. On one hand people easily describe it as the evil of all states and organizations, on the other hand, the assumption is that they treat civilians in ISrael "democratically". This is an impossible description, as you might already know. Nobody in his or her right mind would serve as a whore for the Mossad, unless they are forced to do so, with very unwholesome methods. <br>The fact that somebody is right wing, will not protect them, it depends what kind of person is needed for the "right place and time", in terms of cover story and gaining access to the target. Also, this will have bearing on their motivation to follow certain preplanned moves, like taking this or that job, going to this country or another, studying this or that. Mossad is not necessarily right wing, they are professionals from all walks of political life, including what is called here Zionist left.<br>I said, it was probably antisemitic to ignore the entire issue of human rights violations in recruiting, programming, exploiting and enslaving and later "getting rid of" what you call agents, but who are actually sex toys, or "white slaves". <br>LAstly, be advised that even Canadians, sometime the government too, was able to undertand the level of coercion with regards to draft and war in the USA (the best democracy in the world), but with respect to Israel, suddenly everyone assumes we are all willing and consenting suicidal soldiers/whore/probes for the Mossad. Just to wrap it up. There was an interesting and unnoticed decision by the Canadian IRB with regards to a refugee claim from Lebanon, by a man who claimed he was formerly a snitch for Mossad, and had to escape Lebanon fearing for his life. The IRB made a very convenient decision, rejecting his claim on the grounds that he collaborated with crimes against humanity as perpetrated by Mossad in Lebanon. However, having said that, they totally ignored the fact that this person only wanted to avoid being the victim of said atrocities. The message was clear - those who are extorted by Mossad, are always presumed to be willing participants. In fact, this result was the best result Mossad could expect. It was a clear message, that refusal is futile. Its a no win situation, damned if you do and damned if you don't. The double standards are applied by those who "cry foul" with regards to Israel, but in fact no effective measure are taken to protect people who would rather not cooperate. Its a trap, and a classic " catch 22", the beneficiaries are the bad guys.<br> <p></p><i></i>

[israelirealities]

Just a brief addendum..<br>You mentioned victor ostrovsky, and he is probably the only dissident who made it alive and free under the circumstances. Surely, if he had to depend for his move on people like the ones who write here OR on the Canadian authorities he'd be long dead. The only reason he made it, was that he had a <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>citizenship of Canada</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> and they could not deport him or do anything,AND he managed to get his book published before anyone was ON to him, so it would be bad PR to do something terribly bad at that point, in Canadian territory. However, if he didn't have the other citizenship by birth, the ISraelis would have gotten him back "home"...one way or the other. indeed, the case of Maher Arar shows that even when a person is Canadian, the government might sometimes send him back "home" to his other state of citizenship. THis is something reserved for Middle Easterners only, and i suppose this is racism, both against Israelis and Arabs, regardless. <p></p><i></i>

[michael meiring]

I was always 'suprised' that he didant do more hunting in florida, its well documented that a lot of the top ranking nazis were 'whisked' off at great speed and 'secrecy' for the first few years to florida and then began working on top secret projects for the usa government. surely with all his available information tools at hand he could have located the top people responsible for much of american advancement on eulogenics and technology?<br><br>i was amazed too that G W's grandfather wasant hunted down, his involvement with the nazis was well known for decades, perhaps the sheer work load meant he had too much to do?<br><br>will we see new hunters of prison camp torturers hunted down for the modern day holocausts? ie iraq, palastine, somehow i very much doubt it.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>