Richard Heinberg Openly Supports White Separatist

by **wordspeak** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:59 pm

jenz, i think it was inappropriate for you to knock veritas' style when there is so much vital substance here. you ask what is heinberg's propaganda role. you want veritas to spell it all out for you, make all the connections. i'm not saying that that's a totally unreaonable request or question, but... have you read heinberg's books?

by **wintler** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:07 pm

Orig. topic of thread: 'Richard Heinberg Openly Supports White Separatist' Proldic started it, Veritas seems to have blown it wide open, answering the challenges i (&others) made to Proldic's begining by alternating extracts from RH's Primitivism (and earlier 'new age') writings with scarily similar extracts from shady if not plainly malign others. I withdraw my early intimation of 'smear', but am curious if Proldic knew all that Veritas has now laid out. Current themes on thread: -apocalypse and what to do about it -human nature, wired not to kill? -overt nonsense and distraction -More than a few of RH's writings and associations, elements of his personal history Only the last is on-topic. Who cares? I do, for one, having provided a sympathetic outlet for RH's (and some similar) writings, and knowing that many are enthused about them and him. I'm too new to Hyperborea and the characters at New Dawn to be certain of much, but agree with Annalivia, this matters, and currently looks pretty bad. Where to? I'd like to see a response from RH, a plain english summary from ?, and any reports from close readings of RHs more recent writings (eg. "The partys over" & "Powerdown") for open or imputed presence of Hyperborea, Eurasian or new age themes.

by **anotherdrew** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:26 pm

"a good job has been done on convincing many people that the situation is hopeless." dollars to donuts that was the mission, that and to sow discord. My money is on veritas and shem being the same author. we shall see. There's no need at all for them to be comming from the same IP btw. Even if it's comming from one PC. People talking about "eco-fascism" need to say how they plan to deal with the 'tragedy of the commons' problem. Because I don't see that not being permitted to shit in my own back yard is such a great imposition of dictatorial power. We set limits all over the place and don't call it fascism. Stricter laws about some things is NOT the same as fascism. Saying, "if this happens a lot of people are going to die" is NOT the same as saying "I'm going to MAKE this happen and kill all these people" Saying "wouldn't it be nice to live in a world different than modern society, perhaps like these stories about a mythical past", is NOT the same as saying "I'm going to kill as many people as necessary to live in my dreamed up utopia" I'm going to dig into this RH fellow more and will have something to say on THAT one particular case of this style of accusation. Also - any subject attracts unsavory characters, who's prescence is then used to shit-paint the original subject.

by **Watchful Citizen** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:02 am

Is this the dark shadow being discussed behind Heinberg-ism? I'm still trying to see why Jeff archived this Heinberg thread as important. I read all eight pages and the most I can glean is that perhaps the old meme of the lost garden will be used to take environmentalism to mass eugenics as fascists have intended for ages, that nature will be used to justify ejecting 'unwanted' people from the game if the weather and food production go haywire or just because The Powers That Be can and panic. And (fill in the blank)-fascism is spreading as the neocon-started push comes to shove around the world with a race to throw over the deadwood of mere 'eaters.' Is that the crux of the bisquit? The Population Explosion was the big scare theme back in the 1960s when congressman George Bush was bringing in eugenics people to the floor of the House to whip up fear as I read in The Unauthorized Biography of George Bush. <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20020124222343/http://www.tarpley.net/bush10.htm">web.archive.org/web/20020...bush10.htm</a> (Rubbers Goes to Congress)

by **AnnaLivia** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:03 am

and thanks to wintler for requesting R Heinberg to respond. you beat me to it. by a mile. good on ya. veritas, i'm sorry. some unexpected bad news keeping me away. but only for now...for awhile. carve it in granite; you have done a very good thing...i should say ANOTHER very good thing...and you will know the extent of it eventually. please stay tuned. and don't let the turkeys get you down, toots. veritas and shem are NOT the same person. i know that for a fact, so that silliness can stop now. and yeah, hey, proldic...not that it matters, but i, too, wonder if you knew the real depth of this when first you posted. -AnnaLiviaPlurabelle

by **Watchful Citizen** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:39 am

IR- "Re: nazi revival distant early warning line ok, that makes sense to me. i was also under the impression that this is quite an esoteric concern these days, but being prepared for the next trouble is a very good idea. I think the Bush trouble was a proof - how bad it is to lag behind the plans of master=plotters of this vile kind. Monitoring is not a bad idea at all, as long as this does not come at the expense of dealing with the plotters at hand." The Beast already awakened in the USA and it is spawning mirrors of resistance in Eurasia. Looking ahead brings bad things into view.

by **Homeless Halo** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:50 am

veritas sez: -- "It is sad to see you come here only in time to help kill this thread. You are intelligent. Yes. But wise?" -- Wisdom is not one of those qualities which I've ever attributed to myself. I am only just now old enough to realize I'm too young to know anything. That being said: I think this thread was killed some time ago, based on my occassional checks on its progress. While I'm unfamiliar with RH himself, I am somewhat familiar with eco-fascism in general and more familiar with the "Shangi La" kind of primordial utopian fantasies. Following this line, I find it pertinent to the topic to dissociate such ideas from those who would misuse them to instigate their own personal agendas. It is obvious that not all tree huggers are fascists, nor all fascists nature lovers. I find that this meme of the primordial garden is very strong, and finds foothold in many areas, not the least of which has shown its face in responses to my thoughts. That is, it is a common theme to believe in the "innocence" or "nonviolent" nature of untouched mankind, when few things are farther from truth. For example: Starroute said: -- "This whole "humans are the dominant species because we're the top predators" line of argument makes me really nervous -- not least because it's flat wrong. As nearly as anyone call tell, our ancestors spent millions of years as fruit-and-root eaters, then moved to the seashore and took to grubbing for clams. We only got into the hunting racket a few tens of thousands of years ago, and we're still not very good at it. Basically, we're a bunch of bunny rabbits pretending to be wolves and shaking in our socks as we do it." -- First, I'd ask you to state your references for such bold assertions. If it would make you more comfortable, I would be willing to do the same. Homo Sapiens evolved along a line descending from Primates, in most respects similar to Chimpanzees. Chimps themselves display ALL of the aggressive tendencies of modern man, in lesser form, and are an essentially predator species (despite the omnivorous diet: bears eat fruits and roots too). These aformentioned aggressive tendencies include, among other things: Rape, Murder, War, Cannibalism, Kinslaying, Gluttony, Pride, Envy, Sloth etc. All the deadly sins. Chimps, while not regular hunters (as they require little animal protein for their underdeveloped nervous system maintenance), are known to consume flesh whenever it is available, through scavenging, and the traditional "predator" tactic of finishing off wounded and/or sickly animals. They also practice cannibalism, including the killing and eating of their own offspring. Their conflict is a direct ancestor of modern "war" being highly organized, arbitrary, territorial, and often fatal (their primitive weapons technology does limit their capablities somewhat). Further, man's uniquely developed brain among land mammals is believe to be a direct result of "his" consumption of meat from hunting larger game(although "hunting" and gathering in solititude tended to focus on smaller animals--insects, rodents, etc-- to feed a family group or "lone wolf" type male wandering on his own). The added protein tended to favor those who were capable of larger scale organized hunts moreso than those who were incapable of such activities, such that those who were NOT capable are no longer with us. The only comparable brain function is found among mammals with a diet consisting almost entirely of protein (with dolphins being the closest approximation to human intelligence). This characteristic seems to be (mostly) unique to the mammallian brain systems, given that the old reptiles didn't manage to benefit much from an entirely predatory lifestyle. Beyond this, it should be noted, contrary to the claim made above, that hunting tools are older than our distinct species(making them millions of years old), and that we came into this world as a species descended from other organized hunters. Also, the evidences of large scale conflict between "clans" predates homo sapiens, such that we didn't invent "war" either. We are the product of wars stretching eons back into the mists of yesterday. It can be said, additionally, that if it were not first nature for humans to engage in violent activity, that prohibitions against such activity would not need to be made and/or enforced. That is, murder would result only from (un)natural insanity or in other extreme cases. This is not the record we are presented with. A good introduction, without regard to specifics, to these ideas could be found in "The Lucifer Principle" by Howard Bloom. Literally hundreds of books have been written to trace our violent pathologies to our pre-human ancestors and their own pseudo-primate forerunners. The human as "vegan" gardener meme is very strongly attached to our sentimentality, as such, I personally find it threatening to an appraisal of the actual human condition. This is to say that until we realize that our dark tendencies are as much "us" as our "light" tendencies, we will fail to adopt a "control system" that can capitalize on both and minimize the dangers inherent in either "side" of our natures. I'd think that any human who has been to high school would understand the pathological (and deeply rooted)nature of human "darkness" but alas, tis not so. We are a species in deep denial, mostly about ourselves and how we got to be where we are now(being the only viable/dominant species remaining on this planet). In regards to the topic at hand, I apologize if I have lead others astray, but I do not believe this to be the case. Primarily because this "stray" was here before I came here, and in a secondary sense, because I believe this theme is relevant to this discussion. That is, I think the idea that humans "once" lived in a lovely peaceful land where all the cows talked and the lions ate grass to be a dangerous and easily exploitable fallacy. And for the reason stated above: That we cannot adopt a "strategy" for dealing with human nature when we refuse to accept the truths of that nature. Good luck. -SHCR

by **Gouda** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:39 am

I don’t usually write too much online, but Jeff’s last few posts and the discussions this last month on the RI board have really seeded my clouds (so to speak). Jeff begins today’s “Peak Fascist” post: “You can find Nazis in the most unexpected places, and without looking too hard for them. In your own head and belly, for instance…” -cut- Nazis. Quicker and more reliable than a google search, one can find one in the mirror. I think we owe ourselves a good self-examination, knowing all that we are learning, almost bombarded with, in order to protect our minds from “infection by idealized fascism and even rarified Nazi mythology.” But I also think we owe it to others to check our own messianistic tendencies before-we-go-a-Nazi-hunting anonymously on a public board. Zealous vigilantism can be counter-productive. I think that Veritas and Proldic have served up something meaty, something important with direction and ‘legs’ as they say - but I’d have to agree with some comments on Jeff's post that at this point in their presentation, there is a little too much reliance on guilt by association – which, compelling though it is, as argumentation is a double-edged sword. I agree with the conclusions, from what I have seen, I just think there can be some improvement in argumentation. Going over the presented linked material on Deep Heinberg in this thread, one starts to feel like a fascist just for having a copy of the Bhagavad Gita, doing yoga, appreciating aspects of Buddhism, or for truly revering the birds and the trees, the sunset, mountains and seas. Can we pick and choose without succumbing to fascist ideology? Some will not have a problem discriminating, but others may. Here is where the associative link approach to exposing historic and present fascism can be pedagogically destructive when potential students are not yet tooled in the art of fine discernment and honest, humble self-evaluation. I am just getting there, I think. I hope. There is no avoiding the deep connections between politics, geo-political strategy, esoteric traditions, or the broader ‘occult’. It’s all connected, intellectually and by search engine, more than ever before. Therefore, we have to work harder, dig deeper, and not settle for ostensible guilt-by-all-too-easy-connection. And since everything is now officially connected, we have to be careful not to throw Yoga out with the Brownshirts. (I am so darn close to being able to balance on one leg with the other tucked behind my neck!) *** Anon @ 12.26 said in comment on Jeff’s post today: “The fact that the symbols of a certain kind of esoteric philosophy were adopetd by the Nazi's, does not make those symbols Nazi symbols. The symbols preceded the Nazis and had their own energy…just because the nazi's adopetd cetrain esoteric myths to promote their warped ideology, it does not make those myths Nazi myths.” Two points on this. One, the intellectual and esoteric antecedents of the Nazis - those who utilized, developed and promulgated the symbology and mythology of this esoteric philosophy – (logically) predate the 20th century Nazis. It ain't just a Nazi-Nazi thing. The direct forerunners of the Nazis walked hand in hand with this stuff. Now, who are their heirs?(!) Two, there might be something inherent to this symbology and mythology, as well as something inherent in us, that lends itself all too easily to fascist eroticism. Similar to what Starroute said in the comment section, these myths and symbols passively laid the ground for active modern (and now, post-post-modern) fascism. They are damned sexy, and cold water needs to be dumped on that hard-on. If you are an honest student of the esoteric arts, philosophies and traditions, then would it not be right to call out - or if it suits you - to fight against the active corrosive elements perverting the global esoteric body of mythology, which is part of our oral and literary human heritage after all? We can study these mythologies and learn about ourselves – but they ought never, ever be mixed up with political energies or used to our own ends. We do not want anything ever again setting up the next murder of millions of human beings. This Neo-eco Nazi-like movement is such a very very dangerous game, with the stakes high and the players dangerous, so when you pick and choose from a collective mythos bucket where fascists also pick and choose, you’d better be damn well informed and careful not to brush fingertips with them or pick a poison(ed) apple. Are the neo-Hyperboreans sloppy in their understanding of the esoteric tradition, or are they dangerously masterful? This is what we must know, and what we are investigating. I think this is part of the urgency behind this Heinberg discussion. *** PS: I’ve also suspected Dreams End morphed into Veritas. Just a hunch, could be wrong. Would be a strange thing, playing with alters here. Curious, eh. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gouda@rigorousintuition>Gouda</A> at: 11/4/05 3:11 am

by **AnnaLivia** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:39 am

war is an AFFRONT to human nature or we wouldn't even be talking about it. all persons contain both the noble and the base. feed yr better angels

by **planar** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:40 am

for your happiness and your survival - is it possible that you are like people keeping a good close fascinated eye on one leak from a dam, while the dam is about to break? if you are, you are killing yourselves by doing that that is, you can kill yourself by getting up too close are you like someone who is so fascinated by and focussed on a flyspot on the door, that you have completely forgotten that you are driving a car? i say you are - if you are, you need to know, to find out - all your aims and goals and plans depend on it one who warns you of a real danger is a friend i dont know why you are all so allgetout about heinberg - like it was the first time something like this had happened - like it was a new danger - like it wasnt the same as all the giants of money and power from the beginning - if heinberg is nazi, and if he hasnt got a heap of money, and if someone with money sees heinberg can pull the numbers, he will support him financially, like they supported hitler - i dont know why everybody knows hitler was bad and no one points out that hitler would have been nobody without the financial backing of the industrialists - no one seems to have any bone to pick with the industrialists who backed hitler so that hitler would control the workers and kill off the leftwing who were fighting for workers' rights money is power, more money is more power, great power is tyranny - any person with billions of dollars of power is going to use that to get what he wants - to steal faster, better, safer heinberg, if he is one, is not the first - he is the millionth - and there are 1000s of moneypowerblocks today using 'their' money - their overpay - the money that they didnt earn, that you earned - to get what they think is good - which is often, usually, or invariably, bad for the stability and safety of the country, of the people, of the globe - ie, it is traitorous behaviour - 1000s of them out there right now - giants of money/power that they couldnt possibly have earned, that others must have earned - and you are fascinated by trying to pick if one person is one of them - like it was a new lifeform emerging from the ground, a new species, an unprecedented danger if you think you have to have superrich to have jobs, youre wrong, youve bought the brainwashing, youve bought the fear, theyve suckered you - the contrary is true - as henry ford knew - as the establishment that set up the unemployment benefit knew - the worker is the customer - societies more just than america, like germany [36% more] and japan [50% more money-justice], have higher per person real [=inflation-adjusted] income growth [lester c thurow, the zero-sum society, penguin, p7] while you are being allgodfired smart about perceiving a danger, you are being swept away i wont write any more now - ill wait and see if anyone can hear - i am not plugging a thing, i am not trying to bend your mind, i have nothing to sell, no ego i want to inflate at your expense, i am asking you to look over your shoulder and see for yourself you can kill yourselves by looking at heinberg - or katrina - or such details - to see one thing is blindness to everything else - so seeing one small thing is being 99.9999% blind - animals who are blind do not usually survive you think heinberg is important - if heinberg is the unit of measurement of importance, then what i am saying is 1,000,000 heinbergs - but it is actually much easier to fix the 1,000,000 heinbergs problem than the one heinberg problem i am not trying to get you on board my 'thing', my 'angle' - just use me to see your reality - you think and act independently from start to finish - you never have to trust me - use my weapons - check them out for yourself, that they are sound strong good weapons for the fight you have on your hands for survival and happiness what do i get out of it? survival and happiness, same as you

by **Homeless Halo** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:28 am

You think DE IS veritas? I suppose its possible, they do have similar "post now, explain later" approaches, but "netspeak" is so common as to make it difficult to distinguish between writing styles with any degree of accuracy. They also both seem to have an inherent disdain for me, and a tendency to talk down to those they perceive as being non-aligned with their "axis", so to speak. I find myself, while mostly enheartened, occassionally dismayed by the lack of "rigor" in the approach to some issues on this board/blog, especially as regards esoteric or occult doctrines and its relations to current systems of control, etc. Example being the Shambala myth, and its "connection" to Nazi symbolism stealing. Or the swaztika, itself an indo-european symbol which existed all over the place for thousands of years including Tibet, India, and the Middle East (it was used by the "Sumerians", and therefore early "Jews" long before the Germans discovered it, so are early "jews" nazis too by association?). The Shambala myth itself, is likely to have originated in Sumer, probably as part of the boat cult Atlantean myth (which someone in the blog ascribes to Plato, wrongly assuming he made it up himself), or even possibly deriving from the Tibetans own pre-buddhist Boat/Star cult. (meaning it came from Atlantis itself) I find it amusing that someone with an MA in Buddhism made statements on the blog that must have come from a college professor and not from archaelogical evidence. Specifically, that Shambala was an ecumenical place of meditation for Buddhists and that everyone except Islam is invited. This is amusing because Shamballa is a much older myth than Islam, and is itself (demonstratably) much older than Buddhism, being one of the myths early Buddhism "stole" from certain geographic reigons' own native systems. That is, it cannot be as he said, because it is older than all the terms/systems he uses to classify it. All of this, to say: We should be careful in posting willy-nilly "facts" about esoteric belief systems, when "facts" are the rarest commodity in this line of research.

by **anotherdrew** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:53 am

planar - no one is going to kill themselves by looking at some details. Anyone looking in to this kinda stuff has their own 'big picture' developing. That being said, I feel this heinberg specific example is a mountain from mole-hill case. Frankly I find Peter Staudenmaier a dubious source for ideas. And I think he deserves a little scrutiny too. A case could be made that the Institute for Social Ecology, where he is faculty, is a "chocolate factory" pumping out clowns to make the left look loony and/or dangerous. For example: “Rethinking Nonviolence: Arguing for the Legitimacy of Armed Struggle” — Master’s degree thesis title of former Earth Liberation Front spokesperson Craig Rosebraugh, who is enrolled at the Institute for Social Ecology. He give speeches to kids in anarchist bookstores. I hope he doesn't inspire anyone to flush their own life down the toilet with this provacature posturing; much less hurt someone for such a pointless reason. No act more more surely harm the cause of cleaning up our systems. I'm not totally against Staudenmaier, I may agree with him on some things, but I think he's wrong on this. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=anotherdrew>anotherdrew</A> at: 11/4/05 4:09 am

by **anotherdrew** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:07 am

Homeless Halo said: "or even possibly deriving from the Tibetans own pre-buddhist Boat/Star cult." You would class Bon-Po as this type of cult or do you mean some other tibetan pre-buddhist religion? I've always thought it went that the nazi's who went to tibet brought back three Bon priests and were more interested in Bon than in the buddhists. Oh and I think the professor's info on Shamballa was from historical sources not claiming to be much more than a few hundred years old, he wasn't trying to tap into the really ancient myths.

by **Homeless Halo** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:34 am

both. Perhaps I'll have time to delve into this more tomorrow, but there are a number of pre-buddhist beliefs in this vein, themselves from a variety of "sources". But not specifically Bonpo, however, it could, in some ways, be classified along these lines. This is the inherent problem with attempted classification of belief systems, as they change with each person who adopts/adapts them.

by **jenz** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:37 am

It would seem that more than one is wondering what is so important about this man, that he is singled out. (Important enough that the discussion group principle of avoiding unwarranted personal attacks be suspended for anyone supplying links to information on him!) The people-are- pollution-lets-kill-em idea was being touted in the seventies even, saw it on the Beeb then. So, is there anyone who can explain why RH? Concur with HH on lack of rigour re hunting ancestors, and remark that inter-person aggression is reported to arise in technologically primitive societies as well (read field studies). so its not a question we can side step by pretending that all was once ok in garden of eden and will be ok again if only we get rid of DU and helicopter gunships. also largely concur with his remarks about sloppy occultism/myth borrowers. Interesting thing about myths - again see field studies - in oral tradition, they and the moral code they link with, get adjusted to circumstance, especially by individuals seeking power or advantage. if this happens in short space of time that field researcher is with a given group, what's the liklihood of their retaining original form over thousands of years? evidence from the distribution of genes concurring with the archeological record, gives us a fair idea that the aryan super race idea is bunkum, no matter what myths it is claimed have 'proved' exotic theories about migration. similarly, the adaptation of the genome in specific groups commonly identified as being of one race, indicated both the uselesslness of race as a concept to explain differences between human populations or individuals, and fits nicely with migrating populations theories. language roots and distribution re-inforce. bref - anyone making assertions based on no evidence about our past, (or flaky stories about myths)which contradict theories based on evidence has stock pile of snake oil. I'm not trying to divert the thread, just looking for clarification.

Richard Heinberg Openly Supports White Separatist

substance

focus

Re: Rollick H

Apocalypticism+environmentalism= ecofascism?

oh, thanks for that starroute, you gem!

Israelirealites puts a point on it for me.

replies

Re: Deep Heinberg

Re: replies

is it possible - i ask you to ask yourselves -

Gouda

Re: is it possible - i ask you to ask yourselves -

Re: Gouda

well

why RH?

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