Holocaust denier David Irving arrested in Austria

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From what Ive read.

Postby Peak Oil bullcrap » Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:18 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>well, some folks around here, gives us her take on life:<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br> Dreams end<br><br> And what would that take on life be ? Im confident that you wont disappoint me, cos from what Ive read, you appear to be very good at giving numerous other people <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline">their</span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> opinion on things.<br> But Im very concerned that youre preoccupation with formulating the opinions of others, is affecting your ability to make your own opinions, dreams end ( or am I being Ironic ?). It would be most helpful to actually hear your take on this subject for a change. I noticed youre adept avoidance of previous challenges on the Issue. <br><br> As for the actual Issue as it seems to be here - since we often get dragged away from the issue - I can only hope that this whole holocaust denial business isnt some kind of groundtesting mechanism. Next news, as someone else said, therell be 9/11 deniers laws, and Iraq didnt have WMD deniers laws. Huffshmidts article had an interesting point. Truth surely doesnt require a law. Dont facts actually speak for themselves ?<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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" Irving is not a denier, he's a revisionist at worst

Postby emad » Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:59 pm

BBC put it very succinctly:<br><br>SNIP:<br>Matters came to a head in 2000, when he took the American academic, Deborah Lipstadt, to court for libel after she branded him a "Holocaust denier" in her book, Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory. <br><br>A key element in the Lipstadt case was a report compiled for the defence by Richard Evans, professor of Modern History at Cambridge University. His conclusion was damning. <br><br>Mr Irving, surmised Professor Evans, had deliberately distorted and wilfully mistranslated documents, consciously used discredited testimony and falsified historical statistics. <br><br><br>The Deborah Lipstadt libel case bankrupted Irving <br>And he concluded: "Irving has fallen so far short of the standards of scholarship customary amongst historians that he does not deserve to be called a historian at all." <br><br>And, if the judge's comments, branding David Irving "a racist, an anti-Semite and an active Holocaust denier" were not enough in themselves, the financial cost, an estimated £3m, bankrupted him. <br><br>Irving has recently moved out of his former Mayfair home into rented accomodation. <br><br>Today, he views himself as a champion of what he calls Real History. He blames a vast, largely Jewish, conspiracy of "the traditional enemies of free speech" for losing book contracts and income and now sees his works published free online on his own website. <br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4449948.stm">news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4449948.stm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <br><br><br>IE: a 100% fabricator of historical data, an anti-semite, rabid fascist and pimp for Nazi nostalgia peddlers everywhere. <br><br>READ Lipstadt's book: Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory. it might make you see Irving in a little less kind-hearted manner. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=emad@rigorousintuition>emad</A> at: 11/20/05 11:10 am<br></i>
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Re: From what Ive read.

Postby Qutb » Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:13 pm

David Irving is a spreader of poisonous disinfo intended to serve his agenda of racial hatred and fascism, a fabricator and manipulator of facts, an enemy of the truth. He's using his position as an academic to mock the relatives of holocaust victims and piss on the graves of the victims. <br><br>Why am I not surprised that some posters here see him as a brave man who "questions" the "official story".<br><br>That being said, I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with his work falling in under "hate speech" laws. It <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>is</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> hate speech, without a doubt, and more poisonous and insidious than more crude and overt racial hatred because it's cloaked in "science" and "truthseeking". But prosecuting him (and Ernst Zündel) for this only serves to confirm the worldview of his naive followers in which a vast Zionist conspiracy has invented the "myth of the 6 million" and ruthlessly persecute anyone who dares doubt it. So it's counter-productive, in a way. But I think there are very good and obvious reasons why these laws exist in Germany and Austria.<br><br>I also think IR raised good points about the "diplomatic"/"foreign relations" motivations that may lie behind such prosecutions, though I don't know if that's the case in thse two cases (Zündel, Irving). <p></p><i></i>
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Re: From what Ive read.

Postby Dreams End » Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:30 pm

I agree...I think it's better to go after these types, if possible, with fraud laws or with "more speech". Because a tiny shift in political dynamics and many of us would be under that category. Perhaps that's even the point...I don't know the history of that law. But if you have a questionable law you want to keep on the books, picking the most heinous examples to prosecute using that law gives it some kind of legitimacy. Sort of how they will often execute a white person first when resuming executions in a state somewhere, so the racist nature of the death penalty isn't an issue the first time.<br><br>I think England has gone pretty far in outlawing speech that "incites terrorism" or something like that. Slippery slope indeed.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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New World Order Control

Postby catbear » Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:44 pm

<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=3840">www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/...sp?ID=3840</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Why the Sudden Clampdown on Revisionists? <br>Rixon Stewart – November 20, 2005<br><br>Virtually unreported by the mainstream media and given little prominence even by those outlets that have reported it – probably so as not to alert too many – recent weeks have seen a major clampdown across the planet. On both sides of the Atlantic historians, researchers and investigators have been arrested, detained and deported to Germany to face charges of “Holocaust Denial”. <br><br>Among their number is German born Ernst Zundel, who immigrated to Canada in 1958 to work as a graphic artist. In the 1980's, he published a book called "Did Six Million Really Die?" and thereafter continued publishing and questioning conventional notions surrounding holocaust. <br><br>In 1985, he was charged with “publishing false news" and a series of trials followed between 1985 and 1988. In his defence he brought in gas chamber experts, other historians and cross-examined a number of Holocaust survivors, who reportedly fell apart under questioning. <br><br>In 2003 he was arrested for an alleged immigration violation while visiting the United States. Thereafter he was deported back to Canada, where he was held in solitary confinement in a maximum-security jail for nearly 2 years before being deported back to Germany. <br><br>Upon arrival in Mannheim, Germany, the 65-year-old Zundel was charged with “Holocaust Denial”, an offence that carries a penalty of up to 5 years in jail. <br><br>Likewise Germar Rudolph was also recently deported back to Germany to face similar charges. A German-trained chemist, Rudolf re-examined Auschwitz and Birkenau in 1989 for traces of Zyklon B, the gas the Nazis are supposed to have used to gas millions. As a scientist, he found the "gassing" claims to be scientifically untenable and therefore, in the eyes of German law, was judged to be “denying the Holocaust”. <br><br>He was sentenced in Germany to 14 months in jail but fled to the US before he served time. However he was arrested on November 18, 2005 in Chicago, and extradited back to Germany. <br><br>Similarly, British historian David Irving was arrested on November 14, 2005, while visiting Vienna at the invitation of students from the city’s university. He was to have spoken of Adolph Eichmann’s offer to Jewish leaders in Budapest in 1944, to release Hungarian Jews in exchange for cash or trucks. <br><br>However, before he could address students he was arrested on charges brought against him nearly sixteen years ago, of publicly denying aspects of the Holocaust. <br><br>According to an Austrian state prosecutor, if convicted he could face up 20 years in jail. <br><br>Not only have America and Canada been deporting individuals to Germany to face the “Holocaust Denial” charge, the Netherlands has too. <br><br>A Belgian national, Siegfried Verbeke was charged with denying the holocaust in August this year, after he questioned the Anne Frank story. Two months later on October 6th, the Netherlands agreed to extradite him to Germany, where he faces 14 months in prison. <br><br>So why the sudden clampdown on Revisionists and why now? <br><br>It’s been suggested that the Internet has panicked the Zionists, who to a large extent owe their power and influence to the Holocaust. After all, Israel was founded on its memory and if it’s proven to be a lie, or at least a gross exaggeration, the power the Zionists hold over ordinary Jews could be undermined. For the very notion of the Holocaust has been used not only to extract financial redress from other nations but also to keep ordinary Jews compliant. <br><br>In effect, it’s become like a grotesque doll wielded by witch doctors, used to keep individuals from asking too many questions, from thinking for themselves and stepping out of line. <br><br>Formally the likes of Ernst Zundel might have been written off as cranks or extremists but Internet changes that. It allows isolated individuals to question, often quite convincingly, the official line touted by the establishment and the mainstream media. <br><br>Moreover, the Internet illustrates that the accused are not “Holocaust Deniers” – in the sense that they deny the Holocaust ever took place – or “right wing extremists” intent on resurrecting the Third Reich. That’s what the mainstream media would us believe but almost without exception, the accused admit that the Nazis were guilty of gross human rights abuses. What’s at issue here are the numbers of dead, how they died and whether there was any clear plan of genocide at all. <br><br>In effect these men were engaged in historical inquiry, trying to establish the truth and broadcasting their findings, and that cannot be allowed in the New World Order. <br><br>Without even questioning what happened during the Holocaust, we should be asking ourselves: if it’s necessary to exact such draconian measures against those who ask questions, what exactly is being protected here? Are historical truth and the memory of dead holocaust victims being defended? Or is it one of the foundations of the New World Order, modern Zionist power? <br><br>Finally, a 1948 Red Cross report details nearly a quarter of a million Jews died in Nazi concentration camps but found no evidence of Genocide. This is in distinct contrast to the figure touted nowadays by the mainstream media and portrayed by Hollywood. At the time the Red Cross was a neutral body with no political axe to grind, so why the difference? And we need to ask ourselves, not only why there is such a difference in the numbers but also why those who ask such questions are being silenced? <br><br>Like they say: “he who controls the past, controls the present…” and our perception of past events shapes the way we look at the world around us now. The Zionists understand this and know that the idea of the “Holocaust” is crucial to their power. Which is why such harsh measures are being exacted against those who ask too many questions. <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: New World Order Control

Postby Dreams End » Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:57 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Moreover, the Internet illustrates that the accused are not “Holocaust Deniers” – in the sense that they deny the Holocaust ever took place – or “right wing extremists” intent on resurrecting the Third Reich. That’s what the mainstream media would us believe but almost without exception, the accused admit that the Nazis were guilty of gross human rights abuses. What’s at issue here are the numbers of dead, how they died and whether there was any clear plan of genocide at all.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Yeah...they hedge a lot. Despite this little caveat that (sometimes) appears, these revisionists are central to folks like David Duke, stormfront, etc. I always found it darkly amusing, in fact, that the same people arguing that there WASN'T a holocaust are some of the people trying to get another one started.<br><br>these are also the same people who scream "freedom of speech" about the protocols of Zion...when the protocols are attacked for being what they are, a fraud specifically written to set the stage for anti-Jewish actions. <br><br>So, while I worry about the precedents set by Zundel et al, their protestations that they are not "denying" the holocaust but just adjusting the accounting ring very, very false to me.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Explanation

Postby catbear » Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:14 pm

Hi Dreams End<br><br>The "far right" in Britain I believe has little real power or influence. This is notwithstanding the fact, that there is a fair degree of "soft racism" about. <br><br>The situation in America with regards to the degree of racism, I shall leave to others on this posting for clarification. <br><br>Thus, can you help me with the following comment: <br><br>"I always found it darkly amusing, in fact, that the same people arguing that there WASN'T a holocaust are some of the people trying to get another one started."<br><br>Thanks:<br><br>I maybe naive but if I see a line not to be crossed and I am repeatedly told not to, the devil's advocate in me comes out. Hence,the questioning of the holy grail of 6 million is no different to me than looking at how many died during the "Irish Famine", or in "USSR", after the Bolshevik revolution.<br><br>There is also a danger that the many who died and suffered during World War 2, become over looked by the industry concerned with the monopolisation of the issue. <br> <br>If the number was exaggerated for the obvious purpose of Israel. Thats Life.!! <br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Explanation

Postby Qutb » Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:47 pm

Catbear aka Moustache aka Zundel is a Nazi - that's life. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: New World Order Control

Postby slimmouse » Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:51 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I always found it darkly amusing, in fact, that the same people arguing that there WASN'T a holocaust are some of the people trying to get another one started.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br> <br> Not to mention the fact that those who insist there was are busily perpetrating another by creative stealth ?<br><br> Arranging it in a host of different ways of course. Mostly by thousands of years of DU poisoning, sanctions, World Bank oppression et cetera etcetera.<br><br> The trouble is , under laws introduced to protect the 'unique' legacy of one holocaust, to what I see as the deliberate exclusion of other almost exactly paralell crimes of course ( Armenia, Soviet Union, China - Hey, but those proponents are now our "allies")they appear to be attempting to protect the enaction of the current ongoing holocaust. <br><br> Its exactly the same fella in a different and far more subtle hat. It would appear that the Nazis have learnt from history. "We CANT do it like that, lets try this way instead"<br><br> The 4th reich is truly upon us. Indeed Nazism never really went away, as paperclip, Shwartzenigger, Patriot act, 9/11 false flag, Katrina, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, and all the rest of it probably serve to illustrate.<br><br> So, Why do they allow the likes of Stormfront websites and co ? Its a case of " hey fellas, look at the nasty Nazis over there !!". <br><br> Hysterical. <p></p><i></i>
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"Smear + Slander"

Postby catbear » Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:09 pm

Dear Qutb<br><br>I am sorry to disappoint you, but I am no "NAZI", + if you were in front of me I would show you the error of your smears and slander. I hope you have good medical insurance.<br><br>I have personally fought against racism in many ways and still do.<br><br>So basically fuck off + get a life. !! <br><br> <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Tough guy

Postby Qutb » Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:07 pm

Black moustache movement, coming soon... So moustache, you promised more details about this black moustache movement, I'm still waiting. <p></p><i></i>
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