The Water Engine & other wishful thinking

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The Water Engine & other wishful thinking

Postby cortez » Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:34 am

I don't know how much good this will do, except to lay down and take a few shots for open ended naivety, but I beleive at least it's worth the shot. <br><br>Zero Point Energy as a fuel source may be interesting, but all our motors run on conventional fuel so the changeover would require a motivated industrial sector to spearhead us into energy utopia... <br><br>The new hydrogen economy seems like a sick joke, in the ways being suggested. All the power that will produce the hydrogen comes from conventional sources. So therefore there is nothing new but a paint job. <br><br>Solar and Wind...not for most of out power, but some for sure.<br><br><br>An in-obvious solution may be water running through the engines we have now (using that high quality H20) having the pistons smacking hydrogen for the kick, and water as it's pollution. Sounds too good to be true, for now it has been. And there are plenty of dirty tricks, and Bullshit out there about alternative energy, but it might be a positive investigation that the open minds of Rigorous Intuition to see if there is any validity to some of these claims.<br><br>An interesting start may be this article/list <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/bird.htm">Energy Supprestion: An Invisible Galaxy of Inventions</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>shortly into it a blurb on <br><br>...Francisco Pacheco, an inventor from Bolivia, created the "Pacheco Bi-Polar Autoelectric Hydrogen Generator" (U.S. Patent No. 5,089,107), which separates hydrogen from seawater. He has built successful prototypes that have fueled a car, a motorcycle, a lawnmower, a flashlight, and a boat. And most recently, in 1990, he energized an entire home in West Milford with the device...<br><br>one of the The patents<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=6&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=5,089,107&OS=5,089,107&RS=5,089,107">patent link</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br><br>United States Patent 5,089,107<br>Pacheco February 18, 1992<br>Bi-polar auto electrolytic hydrogen generator<br><br>Abstract<br><br>An autoelectrolytic hydrogen generator system constituted by one or a plurality of similar cells wherein a galvanic arrangement of magnesium and aluminum plates of sacrificial elements as anode; stainless steel as cathode and sea water as electrolyte, by its very nature is made to develop a voltage when connected in short circuit causing a current to flow within the system and hydrogen production of hydrogen in situ and on demand by the electrolytic action at one pole, the cathode, and additional hydrogen by the electrochemical reaction at the other pole, the anode. Surplus electric energy of the system applied to a optional electrolyzer will also be made to produce additional hydrogen at its two sacrificial aluminum electrodes. <br><br>-------------<br><br>a little more on Francisco Pacheco<br><br><br>...Francisco`s dream was to reproduce the “super battery” and he experimented with many metals until he finally came close to 2 volts from the battery. One evening, while working alone in his laboratory with his array of glass jars and electrodes, he noticed bubbles of gas forming. Because pressure was building in one of the glass vessels, he vented the jar. But, it wasn´t until he lit a cigarette that he knew that the bubbles that were emerging from the water were filled with hydrogen gas. There was an explosion which dented the ceiling. After that, Francisco dropped his battery experiments and concentrated on improving the efficiency of the process he had discovered; that of extracting the hydrogen from salt water to use as fuel on demand. His first experiment involved a small unit which produced enough fuel to boil water. From there, he took his hydrogen fuel generator and used it to run a motorcycle.<br><br>In 1942, U.S. Vice President, Henry Wallace, while on a Good Will Tour of South America, saw the Pacheco generator run an automobile engine and shortly thereafter, the president of Bolivia, General Enrique Penaranda, observed the same phenomena. Both men encouraged Francisco to bring his invention to the United States.<br><br>In 1943, Francisco arrived in the U.S. with a letter addressed to the Chief Military Intelligence Service of the United States War Department from Colonel Clarence Barnett, the military attache to the American Embassy, introducing Francisco and requesting an audience to see his invention. At that time, it was believed that the hydrogen generator might be helpful to the U.S. war efforts. In April of that year, Mr. Pacheco successfully demonstrated his generator to the Bureau of Standards in Washington DC and applied for a U.S. patent. But, because there was a war going on, all U.S. patents had to be sealed for one year. After the year was up, Pacheco received a letter from the patent office stating that because of the high cost of aluminum and magnesium (the two metals used in his invention) that his patent was impractical. His patent attorney, after several letters to the patent office, also advised him to “shelve” his patent until a later date, as petroleum was still believed plentiful and cheap....<br><br>...In the 1970 ´s, when air pollution and oil shortage became a problem, Francisco “unshelved” his generator believing that the time was finally right. He secured a U.S. patent and a few years later, he received patents from Germany, Brazil and Japan. In February of 1974, with the hopes of acquiring government backing and support, Pacheco demonstrated his pollution free hydrogen fuel cell to Congressman Robert Roe. With no outside power source, the self taught chemical engineer connected the fuel cell to a Homelite alternator unit with a 3 horse power 1000 watt generator with a 4 stroke engine. The demonstration was successful. Mr. Roe seemed impressed and said that he would bring it to the attention of Washington officials. Upon leaving, Mr. Pacheco invited the congressman to another demonstration he had planned later that year at Point Pleasant, New Jersey.Congressman Roe was invited to take part in a history making voyage; the first power boat ride “fueled by seawater”. Many newspapers were invited as well.<br><br>Congressman Roe did not show up and neither did many newspapers. Mr. Pacheco never heard from the Congressman again about his invention or the promise to bring it to the attention of appropriate Washington officials, but his voyage was a success. History was made on July 17th, 1974 when a 26 foot power boat ran for nine hours using the Pacheco generator and seawater for fuel, putting back into the oceans its waste, only clean water.<br><br>To good to be true?… Jules Verne, in his futuristic tale, Twenty-thousands Leagues Under The Sea, fueled the famous Nautilus with hydrogen fuel. Today, it is the fuel that sends rockets into space. The source for hydrogen fuel is virtually inexhaustible and it burns clean. It is a perfect energy source which puts back into the environment something that is necessary to life and becoming scarce… clean water.<br><br>In an effort to overcome the skepticism he was facing and the Phd he could not add to his name, Francisco had his invention analyzed by independent experts. The Pacheco generator passed all tests at the New Jersey Gollob Analytical Service Corporation Labs in September of 1973, and in 1979. Nan Waters, a consulting chemist with the Aesop Institute analyzed the generator and wrote the following report.<br><br>“I have read the literature relating to Pacheco´s hydrogen generator. In my opinion, there is no reason why it ought not work as described. Basically, he has combined in one device three very simple chemical principles; a) The use of active metals to produce hydrogen from water, b) The differing electrical potential of two metals to produce an electrical current, c) The use of electrical current to produce hydrogen from water by electrolysis. All the ideas are well known; they simply havn´t been put together this way before. It is so simple as to be elegant.”<br><br>When Francisco tried to interest the automobile industry in his invention, he was again confronted with skepticism or ignored. He contacted energy companies and one such company, Consolidated Edison, sent a research chemist to see the generator in action. The chemist was enthusiastic about the invention but when he took it back to his company, he told Mr. Pacheco later, his company had no interest. He sent details of his invention to all the major oil companies. The response was either cool or nonexistent. One oil company returned all papers to him in an unmarked envelope and then after a two hour meeting with him, a representative told him, “We are in the oil business. Your invention, if we were to develop it, would be against our interests.” ...<br><br>...In 1980 the CBS program 60 Minutes contacted Francisco and told him they wanted to do an entire show on his invention. At last he believed on demand hydrogen would be recognized as a viable alternative energy source. Relieved and happy, he prepared for the show....<br><br>more at the <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.mothersalert.org/pacheco.html">Link</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=cortez@rigorousintuition>cortez</A> at: 10/19/05 2:33 am<br></i>
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why are all genius inventors seemingly idiots?

Postby glubglubglub » Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:47 pm

I've never understood why these inventors always take the same damn unproductive path of running to the car companies et al. with tehir ideas -- surely the first few making that mistake is an understandable occurrence, but the remainder...what gives?<br><br>This is neat: <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4455446">www.economist.com/display...id=4455446</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>and the implications'd tie into other topics of discussion here. <p></p><i></i>
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more of the same:

Postby glubglubglub » Sun Oct 16, 2005 6:08 pm

<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?url=http://diepresse.at/Artikel.aspx?channel=h&ressort=ws&id=512951&lp=de_en">babelfish.altavista.com/b...1&lp=de_en</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>MHD applied to thrust generation in rockets! Quite hot, based on ideas six decades old but only recently made workable. <p></p><i></i>
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we'll see

Postby wintler » Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:38 pm

Hydrogen burns very nicely, shame its the smallest molecule and and least dense gas and thus very hard to contain or carry enough around to be useful.<br><br>To split water to get hydrogen is quite do-able, if you have enough energy to run the electrolysis (simplest method, cathode anode current..). Its not done much because of electricity(energy cost), nearly all commercial hydrogen comes from natural gas (and most H goes straight back into refinery oil crackers and other processes).<br><br>To run electrolysis in seawater would be near impossible cos the salts in seawater would crust up your cathode very quickly, long before much H+ or H2 produced. So need to turn your seawater to pure water first. Unless Mr Pacheco is using some other method than electrolysis to first generate H+/H2 then i'm sceptical. <br><br>If he's worked out a way to cheaply produce &/or contain enough H2 then he should be very popular, cos the pro-hydrogen (read pro-nuke) capitalists (eg. google 'Apollo Alliance') have yet to solve that one, and its kinda cramping their grand plans (for 100s of new nuke reactors).<br> <br>Will look into Pacheco's engine on Cortez's recommendation (cheers for that & other links), but had to purge my ..bias beforehand. <p></p><i></i>
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when hydrogen fuel cells take off

Postby glubglubglub » Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:02 pm

if I'm not mistaken, it'll translate into a decent way of taking solar energy->electrolyis->fuel on a local basis. Not super efficient (5-6% if you calculate over all the conversions) but easily automatable and capable of decentralization. (not willing to get into the actual energy economics of solar here, so we'll ignore that). Even at crap efficiency, set-and-forget local power production is something to work towards.<br><br>The so-called Joe cell (another 'free energy' rumor) is supposedly based on spinning powerful permanent magnets around the water tank, which at high enough speeds and with strong enough magnets purportedly produces enough strain on the water molecules (they're polar, so they get stretched along the bond axis) to lower the ionization cost...from there it's just a standard hydrolysis -> burning hydrogen setup. I doubt it actually works, but worth mentioning.<br><br>I stand by my earlier post, though -- why do the people who purportedly invent these things ALWAYS rush straight to industrialists, the car companies, etc....you'd think they'd learn by example after awhile.<br><br>Also of note: <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://ahealedplanet.net/">ahealedplanet.net/</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>is a rambling account of being Dennis Lee's accountant -- Dennis Lee being a (in my mind, fraudulent but) well-known free-energy guy at one point. If you can dig through it there's some first-hand and (directly, not metaphoircally) second-hand accounts of how various players deal with (not necessarily fraudlent) lone inventors -- even for hucksters and frauds it's not pretty. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: when hydrogen fuel cells take off

Postby cortez » Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:44 pm

I'm sure we'll here more of this in the future but recently some scientists have figured out how to store hydrogen in pill form. So that changes the game quite a bit. <br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.platinum.matthey.com/media_room/1128006001.html">www.platinum.matthey.com/media_room/1128006001.html</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> <br><br><br>Hydrogen tablets offer storage solution - 29th September 2005<br>Pt 2005/2005 Cover thumb shadow.jpg<br>Read more about the platinum group metals markets in Johnson Matthey's bi-annual reviews click here.<br><br>Danish scientists have come up with a novel way to store hydrogen fuel: in tablet form.<br><br>Researchers from the Technical University of Denmark (DTU) claim to have found an effective way of storing the gas hydrogen that would enable it to be used as fuel in vehicles.<br><br>At present, hydrogen is a green alternative to petrol, but has proved difficult to use because it takes up a lot of space and is flammable.<br><br>Now scientists have shown that it can be stored in tablet form; a move that could have large consequences for the future of transport.<br><br>"Before, the amount of hydrogen needed to fuel a passenger vehicle for 500km occupied the same space as nine passenger vehicles. With our pill, the same amount of energy can be contained in a normal 50 litre tank," said Claus Hviid Christensen, professor of chemistry at DTU.<br><br>The tablet is small, cheap, safe to use and can be manufactured without the use of fossil fuels. It is made of ammonia, a mix of hydrogen and nitrogen, which has been absorbed in sea salt and after use the tablet can be recharged with ammonia.<br><br>The company Amminex, founded by DTU and SeeD Capital Denmark, will develop the product and industry backing is being sought before the invention can be taken to the next level. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=cortez@rigorousintuition>cortez</A> at: 10/16/05 8:49 pm<br></i>
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Here's some video

Postby cortez » Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:08 am

Ok I've redug to find some old links I didn't have anymore.<br><br>glubglub that link to the vortex engine was very interesting. <br><br>As for the question of why do inventors get sold out or bought out. I'm sure that has been changing, but the window probably has not been open to change the status quo until now (while all hell is breaking loose). It will have to be like Linux vs. Microsoft though. <br><br>There are a few sites up now with members trying just that, they are working off the patents of an inventor Stan Meyer's Water Fuel Cell<br><br>here's one of the sites <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.hydropowercar.com/">www.hydropowercar.com/</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><br><br>Some more info and video clips on inventor Stan Meyer, I should note he had his share of skeptics though. The videos are interesting nonetheless <br><br>Two clips on Stan Meyer from a documentary 1995 'It Runs on Water'<br><br><br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.wasserauto.de/img/Wasserauto_USA_Erfinder.jpg" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.wasserauto.de/video/WasserautoMeyer1.mpg">Video link 1(Quicktime)</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.wasserauto.de/img/Wasserauto_USA_Elektrolyse.jpg" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br><br>This one shows the water seperation technique<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.wasserauto.de/video/WasserautoMeyer2.mpg">Video Link 2 </a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://100777.com/images/meyer01.jpg"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br><br>and a third video of Meyer driving his ' Jesus is Lord' waterdunebuggy for a local TV station. One of the anchors claimed the car had gotten the attention of the Pentagon. <br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://befreetech.com/media/stan_meyers_bb.wmv">Video 3 (Windows Media)</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>Some more info from Wikipedia (note: the bias of the article is in dispute)<br><br>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fuel_cell<br>The water fuel cell is a unique electrolysis device invented by Stanley Meyer (deceased March 21, 199<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 8) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> which is claimed to break water into hydrogen and oxygen gas using less energy than the energy present in the bond itself. The water fuel cell was claimed to produce several times more energy than it consumed (for instance, by connecting it to a hydrogen-burning engine). Since this violates the current theories of conservation of energy, it has never been demonstrated to work or reproduced, and the inventor of the device was successfully sued for fraud, it is under much skepticism and is widely assumed to be a hoax.<br><br>Stanley Meyer was granted patents in the United States and abroad starting in 1989. The fuel cell consists of stainless steel plates arranged as a "capacitor", with pure water acting as the dielectric. A rising staircase of direct current pulses is sent through the plates at roughly 42 kHz, which is claimed to cause the water molecules to intensely break apart with less energy than is required by standard electrolysis.<br>The circuit used to drive the electrolysis device, as described in Meyer's patents. It is claimed that this circuit induces electrolysis with less energy than required by modern laws of physics.<br><br>The circuit used to drive the electrolysis device, as described in Meyer's patents. It is claimed that this circuit induces electrolysis with less energy than required by modern laws of physics.<br><br>Meyer has demonstrated his fuel cell device before Professor Michael Laughton, Dean of Engineering at Mary College, London, Admiral Sir Anthony Griffin, a former controller of the British Navy, and Dr Keith Hindley, a UK research chemist. According to the witnesses, the most startling aspect of the Meyer cell was that it remained cold, even after hours of gas production as his system appeared to operate on mere milliamperes, rather than the amperes that conventional electrolysis would require. The witnesses also stated:<br><br> After hours of discussion between ourselves, we concluded that Stan Meyer did appear to have discovered an entirely new method for splitting water which showed few of the characteristics of classical electrolysis. Confirmation that his devices actually do work come from his collection of granted US patents on various parts of the WFC system. Since they were granted under Section 101 by the US Patent Office, the hardware involved in the patents has been examined experimentally by US Patent Office experts and their seconded experts and all the claims have been established.<br> <br>-----<br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=cortez@rigorousintuition>cortez</A> at: 10/19/05 2:32 am<br></i>
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Re: when hydrogen fuel cells take off

Postby revelation » Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:52 am

A _lot_ of work has been done re: hydrogen storage recently... pills, graphite containment (storing it in powdered pencil lead), ionized platinum(?) sheets. A good thing, considering the difficulties a driver or emergency worker might face on an accident scene with a tank of pressurized rocket fuel.<br><br>Glub, I think you've found the wrong joe cell (the fact and fiction of which could fill an entire thread). Here's a link you might be interested in, the free version of a book written by an Alex Schiffer, a man who claimed to know 'joe' the inventor. Apparently 'joe' went public and was threatened, and consequently gave up any rights he had to the device (seperating him from the obvious hucksters, at least).<br><br>( in .doc format)<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://cust.idl.com.au/rolls/JoeCellBook/">cust.idl.com.au/rolls/JoeCellBook/</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>The typical joe cell consists of consentric cylindrical steel electrodes, which alternate their charge at a particular frequency. There are many on the net sharing pics of their completed cells, and quite a few who say they've ran cars on them... the sticky point being its modus operandi. Orgone, zero point energy, happy chi; whatever's the latest free energy craze.<br><br>As for water itself being an energy source, I wouldn't be too skeptical. Cavitation particularly interests me: a phenomenon in which the propellors of large ships create microscopic vacuum bubbles, which immediately implode and release a great deal of energy, sometimes permanently damaging the propellors. <p></p><i></i>
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xogen

Postby cortez » Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:23 am

This is a promo video for Xogen a canadian company that issued a patent for a near identical system to that Stan Meyer claimed to have produced. That through unconventional electrolysis, using milliamps of power, the were able to create <br>a break in hydrogen and oxygen the two would separate naturally, and be used as fuel. <br><br> <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.nw0.info/index.php?dir=Media.Clips/&file=Free_Energy_Xogen_Super-Efficient.Electrolysis.that.produce.oxy-hydrogen.gas.wmv">Video download .wmv</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>The video was professionally done, and the explanation of the technique is well done.<br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=cortez@rigorousintuition>cortez</A> at: 11/12/05 3:47 am<br></i>
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LOOKOUT....WERE RUNNING OUT OF OIL.

Postby Peak Oil bullcrap » Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:37 am

<br><br> HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAAH<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :rollin --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :rollin --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :rollin --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Hydrogen

Postby Qutb » Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:59 am

Thanks for the story on hydrogen in tablet form. <br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The tablet is small, cheap, safe to use and can be manufactured without the use of fossil fuels. It is made of ammonia, a mix of hydrogen and nitrogen, which has been absorbed in sea salt and after use the tablet can be recharged with ammonia.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Sounds promising.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Hydrogen

Postby cortez » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:17 am

I was getting tired of reading of the 'To Peak or not to Peak?'<br><br>I feel there is an alternative, not something hopefully in the future but now, another option so people can move forward with it. These water fuel devices if true, look like something a handyman could build with the right instructions (which happen to be online)<br><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/h-o/">www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/h-o/</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br>Horizon Technology -- HYDROGEN-OXYGEN GENERATOR<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/watercar/h20car2.htm">www.spiritofmaat.com/arch...20car2.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br>Running an Automobile on Hydrogen Using Water, by Drunvalo<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.rexresearch.com/meyerhy/meyerhy.htm#4936961">www.rexresearch.com/meyer...tm#4936961</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br>Stanley Meyer: Water Fuel Cell <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Talk about feeling dumb.

Postby slimmouse » Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:43 pm

<br> Isnt it strange , when you actually stop and think about all this, how fucking simple it must actually be to turn water in fuel.<br><br> Hell its called H2O for pitys sake <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :( --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":("><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br> I wasnt the greatest chemist at school. But I do know that its 2 parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. And I do know that its literally not rocket science to separate them.<br><br> Peak Oil indeed. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :rollin --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Talk about feeling dumb.

Postby slimmouse » Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:12 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Isnt it strange , when you actually stop and think about all this, how fucking simple it must actually be to turn water in fuel.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><br> I reallly cant believe this thread didnt attract more attention.<br> <br> Im a scientific failure, and yet I understand the simplistic theory of all of this.<br> <br> Water = H20. That is 2 parts hydrogen, and one part oxygen.<br> Hydrogen and oxygen. The ultimate fuel.<br><br> Relatively simply dissectable.<br><br> Isnt it time we really started speaking the truth ?<br><br> Jump on board. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=slimmouse@rigorousintuition>slimmouse</A> at: 11/14/05 7:47 pm<br></i>
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slim

Postby glubglubglub » Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:38 pm

if it were as mind-numbingly easy to separate water into hydrogen + oxygen, burn the hydrogen back into water, and come out ahead in the process, this would've been a done deal from before the time we even thought of using oil for fuel.<br><br>As is, the obvious processes: <br>i) electrolysis of water into its constituent hydrogen and oxygen<br>ii) combustion of that hydrogen + oxygen back into water<br><br>are precisely the inverse of each other, and if approached naively would at best produce no net gain in energy (ie, if we throw out the matter of increased entropy these are time-symmetric process, so in a perfectly efficient system we'd be precisely breaking even), and in the real world if approached naively would run at a net loss (the inefficiencies in our conversion methods and entropy increases each taking their bite).<br><br>All of the 'interesting' schemes involving electrolysis try to find some way to 'cheat': I've seen<br>a) metal catalysts, which make electrolysis take dramatically less energy -- thus making the engine as a system a net producer of energy until the metal degrades -- but which themselves are extraordinarly energy-intensive to produce (and thus if you measure energy usage on a society-wide basis you don't come out ahead)<br>b) all kinds of whacky ideas -- some of which may work, I haven't tried them -- like using permanent magnets to 'stretch' the h2o moleculse to split them more easil -- and there's enough schemes out there that I wouldn't be surprised if a few of these work, but the remaining question is then: how well?<br><br>So, without some way of splitting water much more efficiently or doing something more useful than just burning hydrogen the default process -- electrolysis->burnable hydrogen -- isn't an energy producer; I do like the idea, though, of home-based, individually-owned wind+solar generating electricity to do the hydrolysis step and then storing this hydrogen for use in fuel cells, etc.; it's not terribly efficient but it'd make taking that first step off-grid much more feasible.<br><br>Likewise, if a regular-hydrogen-using fusion device ever becomes feasible water will be a valuable means of energy storage, because fusion will pull far more power out of the hydrogen molecules than straight combustion ever will, thus making it a net energy gain using even the simplest electrolysis techniques. <p></p><i></i>
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