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Re: Energy should be the spark.

Postby Dreams End » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:46 am

One doesn't need peak oil to explain excursions into oil-producing countries. Where do you think the borders of Kuwait came from in the first place?<br><br>Grabbing and monopolizing resources is the primary intent, whether or not those resources are diminishing. Imagine if Saudi Arabia had ENDLESS oil. Think US Inc. would be less interested in taking the place over? Hardly.<br><br>But even if Peak is real, this doesn't rule out the existence of reasonable alternatives. Peak is real...if it even is...only because there was pretty much a conspiracy of private interests to make sure it was the fuel of choice. Hard to meter the sun, don't you know.<br><br>In fact, had we spent as much on developing solar as we've spent on fighting wars in the middle east, surely solar would be plentiful, cheap and a primary energy source. And this is without resorting to more exotic claims which....ahem...sometimes test the boundaries of thermodynamics.<br><br>So, though I think Peak is a scam, I fear that telling the difference between real Peak (as in oil companies are secretly concerned and realize the end is near) and fake Peak (as in oil companies "leak" info about diminishing supply to jack up profits....and profits are certainly up) will be impossilbe for an outsider. After all....whether Kuwait is lying or PIW, it shows that none of us have direct access to the info that would settle the matter. <br><br>But should it be true...even in the "real Peak" sense, it is still manufactured in my opinion. Since oil companies are the ones with the most info on oil, then they know what's up and deliberately plan to keep alternatives from saving the day. Not sure why they think a total collapse of the world's infrastructure would benefit them, but if it's coming, they surely know about it and have chosen to continue disallowing other serious contenders for energy supply....unless you count nuclear....Which reminds me, does anyone know how much overlap there is between oil companies and nuclear power companies? One theory I have is that part of the Peak scare is about promoting nuclear, as "Peak Oil Debunked" blog does. (Not saying he's part of the plan...only that it makes sense as a motivation to me.)<br><br>Then, of course, there's the whole thing of continuing to prime the world for impending doom. That surely is part of a larger agenda...but that's been explored elsewhere on this board. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Energy should be the spark.

Postby chiggerbit » Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:09 am

But of course they would "leak" the reports of "impending doom" way ahead of time in order to milk the profits at as high a return as possible for as long as possible. In the meantime, as we speak, they have already turned their sights to the next form of energy and figured out how to make a buck off of something that one would think is free, such as solar, or alternatively, nuclear energy. I suspect that we have indeed reached peak, and that the oil companies are playing it for all it's worth, manipulating our fears. Neither premise is necessarily false.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Grabbing and monopolizing resources is the primary intent, whether or not those resources are diminishing. Imagine if Saudi Arabia had ENDLESS oil. Think US Inc. would be less interested in taking the place over? Hardly.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Which is precisely why we have made no move to colonized Saudi Arabia, I would think. They are no longer of interest because they do not have unlimited oil, and now we know it. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chiggerbit@rigorousintuition>chiggerbit</A> at: 1/30/06 12:15 am<br></i>
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bada boom

Postby wintler » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:38 am

The 'fake peak' theme overlooks more than a few facts, lets start with one simple one:<br><br>The oil companies (if you're meaning western multinationals) actually control much less than half of all the oil we think we have left. <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201978.html">www.washingtonpost.com/wp...01978.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> (cites PFC Energy, theres others if prefer)<br><br>So any effective 'faking' would require oil extracting NATIONS (who control most of the oil) to be in on it if not actually running the scam (which no-one has tried to define past "its those greedy oil co's"). The biggest oil extractors include Saudi Arabia, Russia, USA, Nigeria, Iran, Venezuela, Norway, UAE, Mexico, can anyone explain the barest bones of how this faking between these countries works exactly? <br>If its only some of these countries, which ones?<br>Is it money alone, or ideological? <br>Is faking via the geological surveys or obstacles to investment? <br>What about NATIONS that have recently peaked and ceased exporting, like Indonesia, are they devastating their own economies because somebody fooled them into thinking their fields were empty? Cos they're sure as hell not making any money out of their peak.<br><br>The 'fake peak' is a very lazy excuse for reason: "heres a motive that i can understand [greed] and assumptions that let me stay a powerless spectator [the oil co's are all powerful]". Believing and repeating that message is far more in tune with fascist agendas than "gee, maybe we're running out".<br><br>Incidentally, i'm usually rude for rhetorical effect. i can wear all your opprobrium, but i'm hoping pride will drive you to attempt to prove me wrong, as just such a style of interlocutor ripped off my then-rosy and beautifully simple anticorporatist glasses some years ago. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Energy should be the spark.

Postby Dreams End » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:39 am

Well, this debate shows how BOTH explanations, absent insider access to real oil reports, can work.<br><br>However, you don't have to actually colonize a place to have control or at least enough for the purposes of resource control. See the history of the entire Middle East for many examples. <p></p><i></i>
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eh?

Postby wintler » Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:09 am

DE: "Well, this debate shows how BOTH explanations, absent insider access to real oil reports, can work."<br><br>Hang on, i'm still waiting for ANY explanation of how the 'fake peak' works. WHERE IS THIS EXPLANATION OF WHICH YOU SPEAK?<br><br><br>DE "However, you don't have to actually colonize a place to have control or at least enough for the purposes of resource control. See the history of the entire Middle East for many examples." <br><br>Again with the reinforcement of they're-so-powerful-we'll-never-understand, less a cogent argument than a projection of fear. Sure theres a long history of geopolitical nastiness, to our benefit & "less developed [\warlike] " peoples cost, but this is a far bigger story than that same old story. Just because greed can topple a govt or five you think it can make oil appear and disappear.<br><br>I am incredulous so many can overlook the complete lack of cloth on the 'fake peak' idea. The yanks blame the arabs, tinfoil hatters blame conspiracies, the oil co's blame greenies, the greenies blame capitalism... we're blaming our way off a cliff, all with our bias' comfortably intact. The world truly is a comedy of epic scale. <p></p><i></i>
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Mike Ruppert

Postby finishedqq » Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:29 am

My argument against peak oil is that Mike Ruppert is so stupid, he couldn't be right about anything. Conversely people who run oil companies like Colin Campbell (Mr Peak Oil) did, are very smart.<br><br>The idea that all the governments of the world are sailing unawares into the biggest economic disaster in history and the man trying to warn them is a very dodgy ex LA cop who makes a living inventing conspiracy theories is just pathetic.<br><br>Is he still begging for money by the way ? <p></p><i></i>
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yadda yadda

Postby wintler » Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:48 am

Believing M.Ruppert is of any significance to the peak oil case is willfull ignorance. Ruppert is merely one of many recent blow-ins who has neither added nor injured the peak oil case (meaning the body of reserve discovery and production data and extrapolations ala ASPO, ODAC, K.Deffeyes, Jean Leherrere, Les Magoon, Ugo Bardi, Kjel Aleklett, Stuart Staniford and many others), except in the minds of those already seeking an excuse not to think. <br><br>Marion King Hubbert launched the peak oil boat fifty years ago with an irritating set of observations supporting a theory which has been subsequently borne out by production from multiple oil provinces around the world, most notably the US lower-48. Anyone who thinks HE was some sort of company or govt stooge is plain fat assed lazy, because all reports suggest his (mid 1950's) science was ridiculed, rejected, and denied, right up until it was proven perfectly correct when the US48 peaked as he predicted in '71.<br><br>Oh, and C.Campbell didn't run an oil company, tho he did work for several, for decades, as a petroleum geologist, like many but not all of the most convinced peakers.<br><br>Please, more nonsense, i need more convincing that this board is a waste of time.<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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campbell

Postby finishedqq » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:24 am

"Oh, and C.Campbell didn't run an oil company, tho he did work for several, for decades, as a petroleum geologist"<br><br><br>"Peak Oil-The End Game Has Started<br><br>By Michael C. Ruppert<br><br>30 March, 2004<br>From The Wilderness <br><br>Colin Campbell is both an academic and a businessman. Educated at Oxford and holding a Masters degree he has served as a geologist for Oxford University, Texaco, British Petroleum and Amoco (prior to the BP Amoco merger). He has served in executive positions with Shenandoah Oil, Amoco, Fina and was Chairman of the Nordic American Oil Company. He has served as a consultant on oil for the Bulgarian government as well as for Statoil, Mobil, Amerada, Total, Shell, Esso and for the firm Petroconsultants in Geneva. He is the Convener and Editor of the Association for the Study of Peak Oil and a Trustee of the Oil Depletion Analysis Center in London."<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.countercurrents.org/peakoil300304.htm"">www.countercurrents.org/p...00304.htm"</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>"Please, more nonsense, i need more convincing that this board is a waste of time."<br><br>tee hee<br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: bada boom

Postby Dreams End » Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:10 pm

wintler my last post wasn't in reply to you...we crossposted and it looked like I was replying to you. it was to chiggerbit.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>So any effective 'faking' would require oil extracting NATIONS (who control most of the oil) to be in on it if not actually running the scam (which no-one has tried to define past "its those greedy oil co's"<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START ;) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> . The biggest oil extractors include Saudi Arabia, Russia, USA, Nigeria, Iran, Venezuela, Norway, UAE, Mexico, can anyone explain the barest bones of how this faking between these countries works exactly?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>All the countries are either conspiring to promote fake peak or conspiring to cover up real peak. Either way, it's a "vast conspiracy". <br><br>But actually, that's not the point. Most of the big oil companies are not openly supporting the peak oil campaign. Chevron is putting some rhetoric out there about it in some kind of twisted ad campaign, but it isn't my contention that oil companies, U.S. or not, are openly promoting the idea. My contention is that the guys who ARE promoting it, and beginning to make some headway, such as Congressional hearings and some headlines and books, ARE tools of the oil companies. The companies themselves vehemently deny that peak is real. To you, it looks like a cover up...and that requires conspiring. To me it looks like a game to jack up oil prices and, for some, to justify draconian measures for our future, such as reducing the world's population by an extra 100 million a year somehow, or simply putting in place things such as the "depletion protocols" which would force developing nations to stop...well...developing. <br><br>But if Peak is real...where are all the alarms form the oil companies you suggest are "independent" of the U.S. conglomerates? <p></p><i></i>
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Here's One

Postby Iroquois » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:24 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But if Peak is real...where are all the alarms form the oil companies you suggest are "independent" of the U.S. conglomerates?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Malaysia May Become Oil Importer by 2009<br>July 23, 2005<br>Malaysiaoil<br>Source: BP Statistical Review 2005<br><br>AP. Malaysia may become a net importer of oil by 2009, absent the discovery of new oil reserves, according to the government.<br><br>If so, that would mark a relatively dramatic decline in production. Malaysia's oil consumption has been growing at a slower rate than its economic output, due to conservation efforts and the conversion of oil-fired power plants to natural gas-which it has in abundance. (Malaysia exported approximately 14% of global LNG in 2003, according to the EIA.)<br><br>In 2004, Malaysia produced an average of 912,000 barrels per day, consuming 504,000 and exporting 408,000, according to the BP Statistical Review of World Energy.<br><br>Deputy Prime Minister Najib Razak made the assertion during a speech at the annual congress of Malaysia's ruling party.<br><br> "Malaysia is an oil exporter, but if we do not find new oil reserves, then by 2009, we will become a net importer," said Deputy Prime Minister Najib Razak. "This means we cannot continue to lean on the oil sector."<br><br>According to the DOE's Energy Information Administration, Malaysia has proven oil reserves of 3.0 billion barrels, down from 4.3 billion barrels in 1996.<br>Malaysiaoil2<br><br>Despite the declining oil reserves, however, Malaysia's crude oil production has risen in the last two years as a result of new offshore development. If we go back to the chart (right) that boost in output can been seen in the increase at the far right of the plot.<br><br>Click here to see the graph: <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://bioage.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/malaysiaoil.PNG">MalaysiaOil.PNG</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>Given that, it seems likely then that the Malaysian government has determined (or is concerned) that the surge in offshore oil production is going to be somewhat short-lived.<br><br>In the scheme of 85+ million barrels per day of global consumption, 400,000 may not seem like a lot. But when spare capacity is measured at around 1,000,000 barrels per day, losing that 400,000 from the market will hurt. And it will hurt Malaysia's economy, as it starts paying out, rather than collecting.<br><br>(Adding to the pain will be the quality of the Malaysian oil that will be in decline. According to the EIA, most of the country's oil fields contain low-sulfur, high-quality crude, with gravities in the 35%-50% API range. More than half of the country's oil production comes from the Tapis field, which contains 44% API oil with low-sulfur content. High-value crude for gasoline, in other words, more easily refined than the heavier, sour crudes.)<br><br>To forestall that day, the state oil company, Petronas, is embarked on an aggressive international exploration and production strategy. Currently, Petronas is invested in oil exploration and production projects in Syria, Turkmenistan, Iran, Pakistan, China, Vietnam, Burma, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Sudan, and Angola.<br><br>Original article from: http://www.greencarcongress.com/oil/ <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=iroquois@rigorousintuition>Iroquois</A> at: 1/30/06 11:34 am<br></i>
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More Amazing Profits!!

Postby thurnandtaxis » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:35 pm

Exxon Sees Record Profits For Any U.S. Company<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/01/30/D8FF3N98D.html">www.breitbart.com/news/20...3N98D.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Exxon's profit for the year was also the largest annual reported net income in U.S. history, according to Howard Silverblatt, a stock market analyst for Standard & Poor's. He said the previous high was Exxon's $25.3 billion profit in 2004.<br><br>Exxon's results lifted the combined 2005 profits for the country's three largest integrated oil companies to more than $63 billion.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Hmmm...Are energy stocks really THAT politcally incorrect? <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :b --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Ruppert.

Postby slimmouse » Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:38 pm

<br><br> I have a good friend who does the talk circuit in the UK.<br><br> Hes an ex oil insider ( 17 years ). <br><br> He says that hes 100 percent certain that Rupperts been 'got at'. <br><br> By who ?<br><br> Big Oil interests. That of course means the US govnt, the MI complex, Big Finance et cetera etcetera <br><br> Having said that , whats the essential difference between Big oil, Banking, the MI complex/ Arms trade or any of these major players ?<br><br> Where is the conflict of interests in any of them, or those who profit from such enterprises ?<br><br> If I might be allowed to paraphrase him. " The oil companies have employees who are there to review all patent applications. The moment an energy saving device/ free energy option patent is registered, these guys are on the next plane".<br><br> The patentee has 2 choices. Sell or Die ( or sometimes both )<br><br> Discuss <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :\ --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":\"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br> Same as it ever was I guess. Peace to Y'all.<br><br> By the way, this isnt the personal friend I referred to earlier. Thats another story ! <p></p><i></i>
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Ruppert

Postby finishedqq » Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:45 pm

"He says that hes 100 percent certain that Rupperts been 'got at'. "<br><br>You mean bought ? <br><br>Ruppert surprisingly is important in this issue. He went very quickly from conspiracy nut to Commonwalth Club speaker when he started riding the peak oil train.<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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The answer is in my post.

Postby slimmouse » Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:51 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You mean bought ?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br> Sell or die ! People I trust implicitly have faced this option themselves. I aint making it up. I couldnt.<br><br> Govnt/MI/Big finance/Oil. Israel UK US. Do the logic problem. <br><br> whats the difference ?<br><br> Theres a wild craze in England just now.<br><br> Its a logic game using numbers - called Suduko.<br><br> Its a great learning tool for logically arriving at ones conclusions. Every number/ possibility must fit the puzzle.<br><br> <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.websudoku.com/?level=3">www.websudoku.com/?level=3</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br> No wonder Iran are in the crosshairs lol. Cui Bono - to use a ruppertism from the coming dust-up ?<br><br> Did I miss something in anything Ive said ? <p></p><i></i>
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ho hum

Postby wintler » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:48 pm

Dreams end: cross post, no drama. But i notice you still haven't attempted any answer of my question as to how this 'vast conspiracy' works in even the vaguest details. <br><br>You said "All the countries are either conspiring to promote fake peak or conspiring to cover up real peak. Either way, it's a "vast conspiracy". <br><br>Not true, no vast conspiracy is required for humans to not recognised the peak, simply our natural bias to assume tomorrow will be like today and to blame other humans for any and all problems. e.g. Most yanks still don't even know their country peaked thirty years ago even as they blame the arabs and/or oil co's for oil prices. The US govt seemed genuinely surprised when US peaked, else why were they so exposed and unprepared for the subsequent '73 & '79 OPEC-created oil shocks. <br><br>"To you, it looks like a cover up...and that requires conspiring. "<br><br>Not true again. Its possible theres an effort to cover up the peak (no solid evidence either way imho), but plain old human self interest and fear suffice. You really think the CEO of Shell is going to come out and say "this irreplacable resource we're flogging off cheap to you now will cost alot more and be less available before long, and then run out" - Shells stock price would crash as investors think "then how are you going to pay for that new refinery/pipeline/well", "Shell wont and can't grow in value", "time to get into biodiesel" etc. It would be financial suicide, so much easier to stick with the carefully constructed fantasy coming out of the USDOE, USGS and the IEA. Uncertainty is the great rear-guard defence of capitalism, e.g tobacco & cancer, asbestosis, climate change, ozone hole, all problems that commerce denied for decades before having to admit their truth.<br><br>Similarly the first President to clearly say "next year there will be less energy and growth will probably be negative, everybody will have less" will be the next dead president. You know anyone who votes for less? Denial is so much the easier road, and we all know how much most humans like the easy paths that don't challenge their assumptions.<br><br><br>DE:"But if Peak is real...where are all the alarms form the oil companies you suggest are "independent" of the U.S. conglomerates?"<br>Err, try looking...<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/416F7BA6-90FC-48E6-8F4C-CA30FDD6EB39.htm">english.aljazeera.net/NR/...D6EB39.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br>The death of cheap crude by Adam Porter<br> ...Ali Bakhtiari, head of strategic planning at the Iranian National Oil Company (NIOC), dismisses the media chat, as just that.<br>"Cheap oil is dead. You are never going to see oil priced at $25 a barrel again. These high prices, yes, they are exacerbated by Yukos, Iraq and so on, but more importantly they are a sign that we have major structural problems with supply. <br>...Then there is the Saudi Arabian angle. Another major oil figure, the recently retired executive vice president of Saudi Aramco, Sadad al-Hussaini, has frightened the markets with recent articles in Oil & Gas Journal.<br> In them he cites "proven developed reserves" of Saudi Arabia at only "130bn barrels", half of what Saudi Arabia normally claims to have underground. A lack of transparency over reserve figures, many of which are thought to be groundless, has further undermined confidence in oil producers to match demand.<br>Add to this that Russia's oil minister has claimed that Russian output will fall in 2005 and that Indonesia became the first OPEC country to admit, in June, that it had become a net importer and one can see the underlying trend.(4 August 2004)<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1230-04.htm">www.commondreams.org/head...230-04.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br>Oil Market Analysts Issue Dire Warnings - Humberto Márquez, Inter Press Service via Common Dreams<br>CARACAS - While this year's record high oil prices are unlikely to come down in the near future, analysts are warning the world's traditional and emerging economic powers to curb consumption, saying that at the current rate, proven reserves will only meet demand up to 2030. "The current model (of consumption) is suicidal," says the energy minister of Venezuela, an OPEC member.<br>(30 December 2005)<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://news.antara.co.id/en/seenws/index.php?id=5415">news.antara.co.id/en/seen...hp?id=5415</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br>RI`OIL TO RUN OUT IN NEXT 15 YEARS: PRESIDENT YUDHOYONO SAYS <br>President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono said that in the next 15 years the crude oil reserves in Indonesia would run out if there were no more new oil fields had been discovered. (28 July 2005) <br><br>In last 2 years Indo has peaked, stopped exporting, and is now importing much more oil than it can afford, and hence has periodic riots over cuts to fuel subsidies. Note these are all from NATIONAL oil co's, not listed companies, comprende?<br><br>--<br><br>Those detemined to keep the focus on M.Ruppert i find hard to treat charitably, poisoning the well is such a frequent strategy of what i believe to be our common enemies. <br><br>I look forward to someone, ANYONE, attempting answers to ANY of my questions about how this "vast conspiracy" of peak oil works, and wont bother to rebut further misrepresentation and wilful ignorance (not a dig at DE). <br>All i've heard so far is "M.Ruppert is a flake, R.Heinberg is sus', and C.Campbell used to work for oil companies". Thats your vast conspiracy?!<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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