My last email to "Coppertop" Andy Stephenson

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Re: 'Zionism'

Postby toscaveritas » Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:19 pm

thank you very much for replying.<br><br>the last sentence is noted! However, which terminology does Chomsky now use when referring to 'pro-Israel' people? Is there a term other than 'Pro-Israel'? Names and labels have certainly been twisted in the past , so the reason he gives is well understood and the point is well made. <br><br>However, I don't follow any ONE man, no matter how noble he might be. I don't to do injustice by using a broad label that is distorted and includes people who area defintely opposed to the very ones who have hijacked it.<br><br>so, for simplicity and clarity, how should one refer to those who are on the position that "Israel can do no wrong", "criticise Israel , then you are an anti-semite", " Jews own the land, arabs are goyim/pigs".....you know where I'm going with this?<br><br>all input is deeply appreciated, <br><br>thank you<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Try www.tikkun.org for starters and "seeds for peace&qu

Postby Seventhson » Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:02 pm

Both organizations with a wide spectrum of thought and which includes the Palestinian perspective often.<br><br>I cannot say I agree or even know how "objective" these organizations are --- but I do know that if yoiu read Tikkun magazine and become part of that community fopr peace you will have a much broader knowledge and better understanding of the vocabulary than you will get in the MSM or from the propaganda mills from the right and, unfortunately, from some of the coopted left. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: 'Zionism'

Postby wolfpauli » Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:57 am

Hi toscaveritas.<br><br>I'll second Seventhson's recommendations. Here's an interview with Chomsky by Tikkun's editor, Rabbi Michael Lerner:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/19990405.htm">www.chomsky.info/interviews/19990405.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>... which terminology does Chomsky now use when referring to 'pro-Israel' people? Is there a term other than 'Pro-Israel'?</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Good questions. I don't think Chomsky favors any Israel-specific usage for what you have in mind, though. And it's worth stressing that 'pro-Israel'/'anti-Israel' is no better than 'pro-America'/'anti-America' -- "drawn from the lexicon of totalitarianism and based on strictly totalitarian principles", as Chomsky said. Many of us who denounce American imperialism, unilateralism, xenophobia, racism, etc., would be very reluctant to call ourselves 'anti-American'. Similarly, many Israelis rightly call themselves 'anti-Sharon', 'anti-Likud', 'anti-racist', 'anti-expansionist', but not 'anti-Israeli'. Some useful terminology there, but bear in mind some people call themselves 'anti-Sharon' and 'anti-Likud', not because they oppose Sharon and Likud's depredations, but because they feel those depredations <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>don't go far enough</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->; see, e.g., <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9443.htm">www.informationclearingho...le9443.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <br><br>"My country right or wrong", say some people, meaning they support their <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>government</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> whether it's right or wrong. Outbreaks of this mental illness can be seen in segments of the populations of most countries. So, how about the expression 'The ____ right or wrong set', with '____' to be replaced by the name of the country at issue? Not likely to pass muster with peer-reviewed political science journals (Do you mean ____ nationalists? - ed.), and it excludes those for whom the craziest government is never quite crazy enough, but useful in a pinch. <p></p><i></i>
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Many of the same people canonizing our sadly departed Andy

Postby stickdog99 » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:53 am

once brutalized an amazing DU truth seeker who posted reams of (dangerously) mind opening research as GodBushNCheney.<br><br>Good to see hear from you again, seventhson. BTW, I also defended you against the long knives, if only by shear reflex. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :smokin --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smokin.gif ALT=":smokin"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p097.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=stickdog99>stickdog99</A> at: 7/12/05 3:54 am<br></i>
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GodBushnCheney

Postby toscaveritas » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:53 am

I met Andy two years ago and we often shared what we knew. I never signed up to DU but he gave me links of his postings where he unmasked alot of the really rotten filth. I was never into blogs, so I didn't read up on how people replied to his postings, and he didn't care much either at that time. His focus then was exposing it, no matter what.<br><br>Even when he got sick, I didn't join DU and only heard from him personally, what people were doing to him. But neither he nor I had the power to stop any of it, so I tried to keep his hopes up.<br><br>I did join DU last friday, to contribute to the threads of tribute to him, because I knew this was somewhat of his web-home. <br><br>Frankly, I must say I've been overwhelmed with the love poured out to him. But I'm also shocked to have found the utter ignorance, hypocracy and denial I've seen there. Whether it's 'conspiracy' stuff, which Andy taught me a whole lot about, was under NO illusions about and even warned me about 4/19/04, which retrospectively seen, was 100% correct and was averted, pedophiles in high places, sex rings, etc. Andy knew it all and I'm very surpised that the same people who claim to have known and loved him, now seem to deny he ever did anything but be an activist for voting rights! In fact, the some of the same people who praise and mourn Andy, STILL believe in the legitimacy of elections and the absolute necessity to VOTE !<br><br>I spoke with him about just that, asked him if it was even worth going through the trouble. He informed me very precisely of every single voting scheme in my state, county and even city! Had it all backed up and documented-and we BOTH agreed that it was not worth even participating in this CRIME!<br><br>And, please forgive me for putting this here, but I did some digging at DU and was disgusted that one specific person who is very prominent and deemed a 'leader', actually publically contributed to the smear of Andy by also doubting that he was sick! Andy even told me that on the phone, and was very hurt by that. The same person even wrote that he would NOT believe Andy if he spoke to him in person, because of the doubts he had! Now, what kind of a friend are you, if you will take the word of some troll over that of your friend, just because you fear damage to your 'reputation'?? In times of crisis, it shows who your true friends are!<br><br>And to those who claim to have loved and supported Andy all the way, and now attack us for being 'tinfoil hat idiots' I say: do some homework and honor his entire legacy, not just what suits your comfort zone! go and read what 'godbushncheney' wrote , if you have the courage-- he had the courage, gall and the love, to face all of it-- do you?<br><br>tosca<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Voting and Andy (and thanks Stickdog)

Postby Seventhson » Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:41 am

ToscaVeritas: You say: <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>In fact, the some of the same people who praise and mourn Andy, STILL believe in the legitimacy of elections and the absolute necessity to VOTE !</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>WTF : Andy was ALL about voting and making the elections legitimate.<br><br>If we give up or stop voting then we just roll over and give it to them.<br><br>Andy was about verified paper ballots. Double verified.<br><br>He would be the LAST person to say Voting is completely useless, IMHO!<br><br>It MAY well be that in his dark moments he may have said "WTF is the use of voting: it's all rigged, etc.)<br><br>Buit these are exclamations of frustration.<br><br>As an attorney i know the system is corrupt and rigged throughout, riddled with incompetence and true crimes of the extreme right-wing packed courts. But that does not mean I tell my clients not to FIGHT when there is even a glimmer of hope.<br><br>I would have to say you are dead wrong about Andy on this count: Andy was about VOTING and about making ther votes COUNT, NOT about giving up.<br><br>Is there any Lux with that Veritas?<br><br><br><br>As for Stickdog: <br><br>Hi there! The only long knife which really hurt was David Allen's - because even when I presented him all the evidence that I was impostored and that the attack on Andy and others was fabricated by the far right as a ruse and a blackop on ALL of DU, he let the decision to ban me stand. Cowardly. Deeceitful. He let the badjacketing stand as well and <br><br>Will Pitt compounded it by claiming, AFTER I SENT HIM ALL MY PERSONAL INFO, That I sounded just like and was probably another freeper troll named TLBShow. So PITTcontributed to the badjacketing.<br><br>If you can't trust Will Pitt then who CAN you trust?<br><br>I know: Jeff Wells!<br><br>But Pitt is in the limelight.<br><br>Symbolman stopped returning my emails. He dissed me, falling for the reich-wing tripe and the piling on and the mob mentality and the long knives.<br><br>So stickdog I appreciate your support in those days. I was unable to even get on the boards so I really do not know what happened completely.<br><br>If you have links to what you said I'd really like to see it.<br><br>Thanx<br><br>Seventhson<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Excursions

Postby wolfpauli » Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:22 pm

Ben Shevi'i,<br><br>Forget Rivers Pitt, check out Pitt Rivers:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.prm.ox.ac.uk/">www.prm.ox.ac.uk/</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>A much more enlightening afternoon. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Excursions

Postby Seventhsonjr » Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:34 pm

Okay Zev<br><br>(I think they may be related though) maybe not<br><br>Interesting <p></p><i></i>
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voting in MY state was USELESS

Postby toscaveritas » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:12 pm

seventh :<br><br>your quote: WTF : Andy was ALL about voting and making the elections legitimate.<br><br>emphasis on MAKING!<br><br>the election in MY state were an absolute, documentable FRAUD! Not only in the state, but Andy showed me how it was done in my county AND even in my city (which runs a different system than the county itself!) I asked him specifically, because if there had been a shred of a chance, that my vote would have counted (and that was my hope), I would have done so! He showed me that it wouldnt have! My conclusion was that I was NOT going to be complicit in this crime by participating in it! And I vowed to teach as many people as possible what he had shown me! <br><br>The election was a scam a fraud and a crime! Andy PROVED it! I told him what I decided to do and he did not scorn me or anything , but asked me to try to educate as many people as possible and directly confront the Sec of State in my state! <br><br>As an attorney you should know, that if a crime is being committed and you know about it and participate, you are guilty as all others. That was my conclusion!<br><br>Only legitimate elections with a voter verified paper ballot will produce a legitimate government! <br><br>I did NOT roll over, but did what he asked me to do-- which is to educate as many people as possible! That was MY vote! My vote was for a legitimate election , not a fraud! My conscience is clear because I did not participate in what I knew to be a crime against this nation!<br><br>attack me for it, I don't care because Andy didn't and that's what matters to me!<br><br>tosca <p></p><i></i>
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Re: My last email to "Coppertop" Andy Stephenson

Postby meppie or meppie not » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:22 pm

Thank you Seventhson for such wonderful endearments about a what I saw as a kind and passionate man. I didn't know Andy but knew of him through my lurking at the DU. I'm new to DU and only began posting some months back and was rabidly interested in the past 2 election debacles and came across the crucifying (for that's how it appeared to me) of Andy Stevenson. My heart absolutely broke for him and what he was going through on the DU and in his personal life. I identified with him on both levels. It is so easy to sully a good name and so bloody difficult to rectify such a smear, and even more daunting when the moderators actions serve to promote character assassinations. <br><br>I truly believe that Andy is relaxing, pain free, in the celestial bar and he lead in a toast to you and others for their out pouring of love for him. His spirit may well be one of the brightest there for the kindness, respect and support you have given him while he lived and now in death. You made me smile and these days there seems little to smile about and I thank you!<br> <p></p><i></i>
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ANDY on Fintan Dunne's radio show!

Postby toscaveritas » Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:53 am

<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.kathymcmahon.utvinternet.com/mrn/img/playnow-nu.gif">www.kathymcmahon.utvinter...now-nu.gif</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>copy/paste into your media player to listen to Andy Stephenson on 12/16/04<br><br>download here:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.kathymcmahon.utvinternet.com/mrn/img/down-nu1.gif">www.kathymcmahon.utvinter...wn-nu1.gif</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><br>original link:<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.breakfornews.com/Audio.htm">www.breakfornews.com/Audio.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>scroll down to 2004 Audio Shows, click on that, then find in top green box<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: articles

Postby LibertyorDeath » Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:12 am

Hi I've been at the DU for 4 years & without a doubt something is up with the mods there. I started to notice<br>it about 10 months ago & it's getting progressively worse.<br>This latest episode of deleting entire threads without cause<br>is just the latest manifestation.<br><br>I'm happy to have found this Oasis. <br>Think I'll pull up a chair. <br>I remember Andy fondly from when he posted as God Bush N' Cheney he was articulate & inspiring & most of all open minded.<br><br>It's DU's loss not to have you posting there anymore<br>Good to see you again Seventhson.<br><br>If DU keeps this up it will lose many of it's most progressive posters & the place will slowly turn to shit.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: articles

Postby toscaveritas » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:03 am

cool to see you here, liberty<br><br>I saw you contributed to the thread I started on DU with the excerpts from the BBC interview of Mr. Power. Amazing how they brushed the Guardian and the BBC aside, and then the thread was closed, citing that PrisonPlanet was not a credible source. I wrote there, and maintain, that those who jumped aggressively at the posted information were bushbots. Controlled opposition is the term, I believe.<br><br>I learned my lesson fast and will not contribute to DU - I could might as well be a mindcontrolled sheep and bahh bahh the DNC Lines- no thanks<br><br>looking forward to your input here,<br><br>tosca <p></p><i></i>
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I think we all need to contact 10 DUers

Postby Seventhson » Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:28 am

via DUmail and invite them to post here. (The known progressives and NOT the trolls or pseudo progressives)<br><br>Actually I can't do it as I am banned there because David Allen refuses to correct a mighty injustice.<br><br>Remember that the Mods banned Andy there at one point and he had to protrate himself to get back on there.<br><br>As for Liberty/Death - glad to see you here.<br><br>Re: Tosca: To attempt to make your vote count is NOT participating in a crime at all. I seriously doubt that Andy would EVER have said not to TRY to vote and participate.<br><br>I know that he MAY well have said that voting in rigged elections is fruitless --- but that is a far cry from saying that it would be complicity with the Bushes to actually vote even if the elections are rigged.<br><br>My suspicions (especially when someone uses the Yale motto in part) of ANYONE who says that we should not vote or that ANDY said we should not vote are raised: I am not attacking you, Tosca, I just believe either you got it completely wrong or you are simply mistaking what Andy stood for. Otherwise I will give you the benefit of the doubt for now. But to say that Andy stood AGAINST voting is highly suspect to me.<br><br>Andy was complex and he got distressed and depressed at times and sometimes had doubts. Look at what he endured and what ultimately destroyed him in my opinion.<br><br>He was, essentially murdered IMHO.<br><br>But he hipped me to Turmeric to prevent cancer and heal it in our last conversation a few weeks back.<br><br>I am sure if he could talk to us now he would clarify his position on voting and what we should do NOW.<br><br>But that is the "beauty" of such assassinations: revisionists can put words in his mouth and use them for propaganda, and there is very little we can do except shine a light on them and try to see the truth.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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advice

Postby toscaveritas » Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:53 pm

ok stephens <br><br>I think I made my point very clear and I sense you've either misunderstood (which I hope) or you're deliberately twisting what I wrote.<br><br>I was a personal friend of Andy and NOT a DU'er. He never said to me that voting in general was fruitless, but in MY case, MY county, MY city and MY state, it was. It was MY specific case and not a general statement to all Americans! Please don't twist this any further! I had long conversations with him , where he precisely explained all details to me. It was MY conclusion that what is being done is crime and it was MY decision, that I would chose NOT to participate by throwing my 'vote' down into the pit of fraud. <br><br>I'm not a 'revisionist' but maybe I made a mistake by mentioning a purely private conversation I had with Andy. He was often depressed and hopeless, and MY state is and was then, definetely hopeless and he had all the proof for it! Maybe we both were depressed at the time, looking at all the data.<br><br>I know very well what Andy stood for. In fact, I was asked to join his campaign. Fact is, that this whole voting problem is highly complex and difficult. Every state, county and even cities use a variety of election systems which a variety of rigging techniques. Some may well be rather safe, but in MY city particularely , even republicans noted a very strange election night in our local election too. I won't go into details about the local debacle , but I can assure you that I know what Andy stood for, supported him every step of the way, and have done all I can to educate people about this! <br><br>Also, there is a huge difference between being an activist for honest , auditable elections, and voting on a touch-screen voting machine! I chose to be an activist FOR a legitimate election and NOT participate in what I knew ( in my state) to be a criminal endeavor. That to me is the only logical conclusion! <br><br>Which 'yale motto' are you referring to? My god, are you trying to insinuate something about me? Again, I did not say that Andy 'stood against voting'! Where did you see that? I referenced a private , personal conversation about the debacle in MY city! HOw much did you learn about your local election procedures? Do you know where and how the votes in our county are tabulated?<br><br>And what is this line : <br><br>"But that is the "beauty" of such assassinations: revisionists can put words in his mouth and use them for propaganda, and there is very little we can do except shine a light on them and try to see the truth."<br><br>That is utterly disgusting! Are you implying something? <br>Post a quote of mine where I specifically wrote that Andy stood for not voting! find it! You won't find it! I wrote about a very local, personal decision I was faced with and got his advice on.<br><br>Get a grip, seventh! I was a very close friend of his for over 2 yrs, and if you grieve as much as I do, we should really bury this and work together on educating more people on election fraud! He hasn't even been dead for one week, and we shouldnt start calling each other names or being 'suspicious' ! whom does that serve? <br><br>i'm burying this NOW<br><br>tosca<br> <p></p><i></i>
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