""Watergate-level event" is about to occur in

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Guy who?

Postby anonymous » Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:12 pm

"Guy Hawks day is about the gunpowder plot of 1605..."<br><br>Guy "Fawkes"<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :D --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: ""Watergate-level event" is about to occu

Postby chiggerbit » Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:35 pm

The one thing that always puzzles me is why Cheney's office wanted to have the CIA send someone to investigate the Niger document. Why bother? Either they knew/suspected that it was bogus, or they didn't know. If they knew, why would they have the CIA send someone to investigate and prove it was unreliable? If they didn't know, and then they were informed by the report that the Niger document was suspect, then why did they bother, since they ignored the report? Their actions from that point certainly were self-defeating. Somehow it seems to me that either way it was in their best interests to not investigate. Well, unless they were hoping for even more evidence.<br><br>On the the other hand, it always feels weird to me the way Wilson, a very experienced diplomat who would know the drill about secrecy, would go public about his mission. Kind of out-of-character for a diplomat. ARE there two games going on here? Just trying to look at all the facets of this event. <p></p><i></i>
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Interesting speculation

Postby antiaristo » Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:48 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But as news reports indicate Fitzgerald is closing in on Cheney and as more news of Cheney's apparent estrangement from this Administration appears, I think it's bigger than that. I think Fitzgerald may be piecing together evidence that Cheney deliberately ignored the results of Wilson's trip ... and then buried evidence he had done so. <br><br>I have no idea whether that means he's also getting close to solving the Niger forgery mystery. But if Cheney knew of Wilson and ignored his intelligence--then lashed out precisely because Wilson could prove that he deliberately ignored intelligence that proved the case for war was fraudulent, it would be damning enough.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/2005/10/the_outing_of_j.html#more">thenexthurrah.typepad.com....html#more</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Interesting speculation

Postby dbeach » Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:08 pm

Guy "Fawkes'<br><br>I will try to remember that name BUT with all the ckichenhawks runnin around these days.<br><br>hawks flew out of me. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Interesting speculation

Postby chiggerbit » Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:17 pm

Has it been firmly established that Cheney's office actually requested that the CIA send someone to investigate? Or did the CIA do on its own initiative? Asking that it be investigated seems so illogical, from the administration's perspective. <p></p><i></i>
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Jane Hamsher

Postby rapt » Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:32 pm

Thanks for the link to FireDogLake dequeue. So far the best most thorough info and commentary of the ongoing crimes that I've seen yet. I feel so much smarter now. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Jane Hamsher

Postby chiggerbit » Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:11 pm

Hope this hasn't been posted before. It starts to make sense. Wow, if Fitzy dug deep enough, this could possibly go all the way back to Iran/Contra. How about October Surprise? I must not have been paying enough attention. Is Franklin connected to PlameGate? If Manucher Ghorbanifar is involved in this, then CS's theory is beginning to look credible.<br><br>If that Niger letterhead later used for the fraudulent document was stolen even before Bush took office, then the Niger uranium story began before 9/11. Incredible.<br><br>Too bad there isn't more proof, that it relies so much on conjecture. Still doesn't answer my question about whether Cheney really requested that the document be investigated. IF he did, it was the biggest mistake of his life. <br><br> <br>See link for entire article. Emphasis is mine.<br><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/article318195.ece">comment.independent.co.uk...318195.ece</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>At the beginning of 2001, a few weeks before George Bush took office</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, there was a break-in at the Niger embassy in Rome. Strangely, nothing of value was taken. Months later came 9/11 and a month after that, as George Bush wondered how to get back at the terrorists, a report from the Italian security service (Sismi) reached the CIA: Iraq was seeking to buy uranium.<br><br>Disappointingly for the neocons, the CIA sent Ambassador Joseph Wilson to Niger to check the story: he reported that it was nonsense. When the story was repeated by Bush, Wilson went public. His wife, CIA agent Valerie Plame, was then outed by the White House. Hence Rove's predicament.<br><br>An organisation called the Office of Special Plans (OSP) was set up in the Pentagon by Douglas Feith, a former consultant to Israel's Likud party, to prepare for the war. In the words of Robert Baer, a distinguished former CIA man, it was a "competing intelligence shop at the Pentagon"..."if you didn't like the answer you're getting from the CIA". In short, bogus stories would get a second chance at the OSP.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>A clue to the ancestry of these black arts can be found in 1980, when right-wing Republicans wanted Ronald Reagan elected. They publicised a story that Billy Carter, the then President Jimmy Carter's colourful brother, had received $50,000 (£28,000) from the Libyan government.<br><br>The story was always denied by the President and no evidence of the payment was found, but the story helped to elect Reagan. Its source? Sismi, and an associate of a man called Michael Ledeen.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>Ledeen is an intriguing and enduring presence in the murkier parts of US foreign policy. He is an American <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>specialist on Italy</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> with a long-standing commitment to Israel. According to The New York Times, in December 2001, a few months after the CIA first heard the Niger claims, Ledeen flew to Rome with <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Manucher Ghorbanifar</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, a former Iranian arms dealer, and two officials from OSP, one of whom was <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Larry Franklin</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. In Rome they met the head of Sismi.<br><br>Some months later, the documents were published, having been sold to an Italian journalist by a Roman businessman linked to Sismi.So far, so circumstantial. One man who might well know the answer to all this is Vincent Cannistraro, the former head of counter terrorism operations at the CIA. His belief is that the documents were produced in the US but "funnelled through the Italians". When an interviewer asked Cannistraro "if I said Michael Ledeen", he reportedly replied "I don't think it's a proven case ...You'd be very close"<br><br>Ledeen, on hearing this, issued the following statement: "I have absolutely no connection to the Niger documents, have never even seen them. I did not work on them, never handled them, know virtually nothing about them, don't think I ever wrote or said anything about the subject."<br><br>It seems it wasn't Ledeen but someone close to him. So who was it who had been planning since before 9/11 to create a fraudulent casus belli against Saddam?<br><br>Norman Dombey is Emeritus Professor of Theoretical Physics at the University of Sussex and an expert on Iraq's nuclear capability<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Firedoglake and thenexthurrah

Postby Peachtree Pam » Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:32 pm

Thanks dequeue, for the link. I am sitting on the edge of the chair reading these brilliant analyses of all the twists and turns in this very crucial political situation.<br><br>Anti, I await your cogent comments from these two valuable sites. <p></p><i></i>
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fitzgerald day

Postby vondardenelle » Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:38 pm

guy fawkes tried to blow up parliament and nowadays he gets his own "day" (Guy Fawkes Day) when British people celebrate by shooting off fireworks (UK readers please correct me if I'm wrong about this).<br><br>If Fitzgergerald nails a bunch of these bad guys, maybe we can create a Fitzgerald Day, where everyone is nice to lawyers for a day or something. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: fitzgerald day

Postby Col Quisp » Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:30 pm

Firedoglake says Fitzi met with Judge Hogan privately yesterday, presumably to ask for an extension of the grand jury. <br><br>This could mean that the investigation is uncovering a lot more than turned aspens joined at the roots.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: aspens

Postby chiggerbit » Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:58 pm

~ahem~ I think the term for tress that are joined at the root is called "suckering". Honest! <p></p><i></i>
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Re: fitzgerald day

Postby AnnaLivia » Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:59 pm

(dedicated especially to dbeach and seemslad) (and, aw, i can't leave out antiaristo)<br><br>The Twelve Days of Fitzmas<br><br>On the first day of Fitzmas, my true bills gave to me<br>Imprisonment for BFEE<br><br>On the second day of Fitzmas, more true bills gave to me<br>Cheney hung at dawn<br>And imprisonment for BFEE<br><br>On the third day of Fitzmas, more true bills gave to me<br>Rover in the doghouse<br>Cheney hung at dawn<br>And imprisonment for BFEE<br><br>On the fourth day of Fitzmas, more true bills gave to me<br>Scooter on a chaingang<br>Rover in the doghouse<br>Cheney hung at dawn<br>And imprisonment for BFEE<br><br>On the fifth day of Fitzmas, more true bills gave to me<br><br>Truth told freely!<br><br>Scooter doing time<br>Rover, too<br>Cheney hung at dawn<br>And imprisonment for BFEE<br><br>On the sixth day of Fitzmas, more true bills gave to me<br>Rumsfeld hung by thumbscrews<br><br>Truth told freely!<br><br>Scooter doing time<br>Rover, too<br>Cheney hung at dawn<br>And imprisonment for BFEE<br><br>On the seventh day of Fitzmas, more true bills gave to me<br>Novak unemployed now<br>Rumsfeld hung by thumbscrews<br><br>Truth told freely!<br><br>Scooter doing time<br>Rover, too<br>Cheney hung at dawn<br>And imprisonment for BFEE<br><br>On the eighth day of Fitzmas, more true bills gave to me<br>Condi walking hot coals<br>Novak unemployed now<br>Rumsfeld hung by thumbscrews<br><br>Truth told freely!<br><br>Scooter doing time<br>Rover, too<br>Cheney hung at dawn<br>And imprisonment for BFEE<br><br>On the ninth day of Fitzmas, more true bills gave to me<br>Armitage in handcuffs<br>Condi walking hot coals<br>Novak unemployed now<br>Rumsfeld hung by thumbscrews<br><br>Truth told freely!<br><br>Scooter doing time<br>Rover, too<br>Cheney hung at dawn<br>And imprisonment for BFEE<br><br>On the tenth day of Fitzmas, more true bills gave to me<br>Porter doing perpwalk<br>Armitage in handcuffs<br>Condi walking hot coals<br>Novak unemployed now<br>Rumsfeld hung by thumbscrews<br><br>Truth told freely!<br><br>Scooter doing time<br>Rover, too<br>Cheney hung at dawn<br>And imprisonment for BFEE<br><br>On the eleventh day of Fitzmas, more true bills gave to me<br>Asscroft’s speedy trial<br>Goss doing perpwalk<br>Armitage in handcuffs<br>Condi walking hot coals<br>Novak unemployed now<br>Rumsfeld hung by thumbscrews<br><br>Truth told freely!<br><br>Scooter doing time<br>Rover, too<br>Cheney hung at dawn<br>And imprisonment for BFEE<br><br>On the twelfth day of Fitzmas, more true bills gave to me<br>Guck in solitary<br>Asscroft’s speedy trial<br>Goss doing perpwalk<br>Armitage in handcuffs<br>Condi walking hot coals<br>Novak unemployed now<br>Rumsfeld hung by thumbscrews<br><br>Truth told freely!<br><br>Scooter doing time<br>Rover, too<br>Cheney hung at dawn<br><br>And imprisonment for BFEE!!<br><br> <br><br>(maybe there’s others who better belong in the top twelve, so pipe up with suggestions or verses, by all means. I used who came to mind, is all.)<br> <br><br>And just in case some have not seen this yet, it deserves more than another mention:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=66773">www.democraticunderground...c_id=66773</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>GO PADDY<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: aspens

Postby chiggerbit » Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:08 pm

Aspens connected at the root is called suckering:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/CoopExt/4DMG/Trees/aspencan.htm">www.colostate.edu/Depts/C...pencan.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Aspen reproduce not only by seed but also by extensive suckering. An aspen grove starts as suckers shoot off the roots of a mother tree, which arrived at the site by seed. This suckering habit can be a nuisance in the urban landscape, coming up in lawns and gardens.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Fitzmas

Postby antiaristo » Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:25 pm

Anna,<br>You ARE inspired! It trips off the tongue.<br><br>One quibble. Why let Hadley off so lightly?<br>He's the part of the WHIG that neutralised the CIA objections,<br>as personified by Alan Foley. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antiaristo>antiaristo</A> at: 10/15/05 12:48 pm<br></i>
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don't...

Postby dqueue » Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:36 pm

Don't forget Mr. Moustache, John Bolton. Please, please forcibly remove him from the UN. He's unfit. He's an embarassment.<br><br>So, with rumors of an extension, we're in a holding pattern. But, they're only rumors... and it may indicate that Fitzgerald has found something big. My concern is, these people remain in power, with security clearances. That seems dangerous in and of itself. I wonder, are the suspects or targets under surveillance?<br><br>I was in very different circumstances when Starr was special prosecutor, and was unable to pay as close attention; however, I do seem to recall more of a media circus then. Lots of Starr showboating... Am I way off? Fitzgerald seems to run a tight ship.<br><br>If there are indictments, is this a wedge to further divide the nation? Or will wingnuts wake up a bit? I'm really uncertain. I know the 2 party system is broken, and the divide benefits the system... <p></p><i></i>
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