Amish school shooting

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Re: Similarities

Postby MASONIC PLOT » Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:03 am

DB thats true about the camps. I know the whole argument for and against and I have always been skeptical of the claims that they exist, at least on a large scale, big enough for all of us who like to run our mouths and stand up to the reichmasters. I was mostly being dramatic but the gist of my statement is likely at least somewhat accurate. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :eek --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eek.gif ALT=":eek"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=masonicplot>MASONIC PLOT</A> at: 10/4/06 9:04 am<br></i>
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Re: Similarities

Postby starviego » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:37 pm

<br><br> They are just trying to ramp up the anti-gun propaganda to a feverish pitch. The sexual assualt angle is the key here. Plain school shootings just don't cut it any more, so they have an extra-added horror. It's New and Improved! Call it "catapulting the propaganda."<br><br>I don't thinks its accidental that this started just after the Dawson College, Montreal attack, when the ghost of Marc Lepine's mass attack on women in the same city back in 1989 was resurrected. <p></p><i></i>
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Or maybe

Postby professorpan » Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:36 pm

He was just a very sick fuck. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Or maybe

Postby Dreams End » Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:55 pm

I really doubt the "it's to increase calls for gun control" angle. However, the cases are SO similar...even the number of female hostages was almost exactly the same. Anyway, here's the CIA torture manual on the use of hypnosis for interrogation. This isn't about Mind Control directly, but look at what is considered important and in the realm of the possible:<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>I. Heightened Suggestibility and Hypnosis<br><br>In recent years a number of hypotheses about hypnosis have been advanced by psychologists and others in the guise of proven principles. Among these are the flat assertions that a person connot be hypnotized against his will; that while hypnotized he cannot be induced to divulge information that he wants urgently to conceal; and that he will not undertake, in trance or through post-hypnotic suggestion, actions to which he would normally have serious moral or ethical objections. If these and related contentions were proven valid, hypnosis would have scant value for the interrogator.<br><br>But despite the fact that hypnosis has been an object of scientific inquiry for a very long time, none of these theories has yet been tested adequately. Each of them is in conflict with some observations of fact. In any event, an interrogation handbook cannot and need not include a lengthy discussion of hypnosis. The case officer or interrogator needs to know enough about the subject to understand the circumstances under which hypnosis can be a useful tool, so that he can request expert assistance appropriately.<br><br>Operational personnel, including interrogators, who chance to have some lay experience or skill in hypnotism should not themselves use hypnotic techniques for interrogation or other operational purposes. There are two reasons for this position. The first is that hypnotism used as an operational tool by a practitioner who is not a psychologist, psychiatrist, or M.D. can produce irreversible psychological damage. <br><br>The lay practitioner does not know enough to use the technique safely. The second reason is that an unsuccessful attempt to hypnotize a subject for purposes of interrogation,<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong> or a successful attempt not adequately covered by post-hypnotic amnesia or other protection</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, can easily lead to lurid and embarrassing publicity or legal charges.<br><br>Hypnosis is frequently called a state of heightened suggestibility, but the phrase is a description rather than a definition. Merton M. Gill and Margaret Brenman state, "The psychoanalytic theory of hypnosis clearly implies, where it does not explicitly state, that hypnosis is a form of regression." And they add, "...induction [of hypnosis] is the process of bringing about a regression, while the hypnotic state is the established regression." (13) It is suggested that the interrogator will find this definition the most useful. <br><br>The problem of overcoming the resistance of an uncooperative interrogatee is essentially a problem of inducing regression to a level at which the resistance can no longer be sustained. Hypnosis is one way of regressing people.<br><br>Martin T. Orne has written at some length about hypnosis and interrogation. Almost all of his conclusions are tentatively negative. Concerning the role played by the will or attitude of the interrogates, Orne says, "Although the crucial experiment has not yet been done, there is little or no evidence to indicate that trance can be induced against a person's wishes." He adds, "...the actual occurrence of the trance state is related to the wish of the subject to enter hypnosis." <br><br>And he also observes, "...whether a subject will or will not enter trance depends upon his relationship with the hyponotist rather than upon the technical procedure of trance induction." These views are probably representative of those of many psychologists, but they are not definitive. As Orne himself later points out, the interrogatee "... could be given a hypnotic drug with appropriate verbal suggestions to talk about a given topic. Eventually enough of the drug would be given to cause a short period of unconsciousness. <br><br>When the subject wakes, the interrogator could then read from his 'notes' of the hypnotic interview the information presumably told him." (Orne had previously pointed out that this technique requires that the interrogator possess significant information about the subject without the subject's knowledge.) "It can readily be seen how this... maneuver... would facilitate the elicitation of information in subsequent interviews." (7) <br><br>Techniques of inducing trance in resistant subjects through preliminary administration of so-called silent drugs (drugs which the subject does not know he has taken) or through other non-routine methods of induction are still under investigation. Until more facts are known, the question of whether a resister can be hypnotized involuntarily must go unanswered.<br><br>Orne also holds that even if a resister can be hypnotized, his resistance does not cease. He postulates "... that only in rare interrogation subjects would a sufficiently deep trance be obtainable to even attempt to induce the subject to discuss material which he is unwilling to discuss in the waking state. The kind of information which can be obtained in these rare instances is still an unanswered question." He adds that it is doubtful that a subject in trance could be made to reveal information which he wished to safeguard.<br><br> But here too <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Orne seems somewhat too cautious or pessimistic</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Once an interrogatee is in a hypnotic trance, his understanding of reality becomes subject to manipulation</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. For example, a KUBARK interrogator could tell a suspect double agent in trance that the KGB is conducting the questioning, and thus invert the whole frame of reference. In other words, <br><br>Orne is probably right in holding that most recalcitrant subjects will continue effective resistance as long as the frame of reference is undisturbed. But once the subject is tricked into believing that he is talking to friend rather than foe, or that divulging the truth is the best way to serve his own purposes, his resistance will be replaced by cooperation. The value of hypnotic trance is not that it permits the interrogator to impose his will but rather that it can be used to convince the interrogatee that there is no valid reason not to be forthcoming.<br><br>A third objection raised by Orne and others is that material elicited during trance is not reliable. Orne says, "... it has been shown that the accuracy of such information... would not be guaranteed since subjects in hypnosis are fully capable of lying." Again, the observation is correct; no known manipulative method guarantees veracity. But if hypnosis is employed not as an immediate instrument for digging out the truth but rather <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>as a way of making the subject want to align himself with his interrogators</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, the objection evaporates.<br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><br>Hypnosis offers one advantage not inherent in other interrogation techniques or aids: the post-hypnotic suggestion. Under favorable circumstances it should be possible to administer a silent drug to a resistant source, persuade him as the drug takes effect that he is slipping into a hypnotic trance, place him under actual hypnosis as consciousness is returning, shift his frame of reference so that his reasons for resistance become reasons for cooperating, interrogate him, and conclude the session by implanting the suggestion that when he emerges from trance he will not remember anything about what has happened.<br></strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>This sketchy outline of possible uses of hypnosis in the interrogation of resistant sources has no higher goal than to remind operational personnel that the technique may provide the answer to a problem not otherwise soluble. To repeat: hypnosis is distinctly not a do-it-yourself project. Therefore the interrogator, base, or center that is considering its use must anticipate the timing sufficiently not only to secure the obligatory headquarters permission but also to allow for an expert's travel time and briefing.<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.kimsoft.com/2000/kub_ix.htm">link</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Keep in mind, this is from the "Kubark" manual...written in 1963 and is also something deemed okay to declassify. Still, it says a lot. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Or maybe

Postby professorpan » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:32 pm

Are there any red flags about this guy's background? I know it's tempting to jump on the "he's a MKULTRA programmed killer," but I'd be curious about former military service, out-of-country travel, that kind of thing. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Or maybe

Postby starviego » Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:02 pm

DreamsEnd,<br><br>Thanks for the info.<br><br><br>ProfessorPan,<br><br>Look for a statement like "He was being treated for depression." That will tell you all you need to know.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Or maybe

Postby Col Quisp » Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:39 pm

“Even a terrorist I wouldn’t expect to shoot, execution-style, young girls ... especially someone who appears to be a normal, regular family guy,” said Steve Sipos, another of Roberts’ neighbors.<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/26364">local.lancasteronline.com/4/26364</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>Doesn't sound like a sick fuck. Sounds like a sleeper. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Or maybe

Postby dugoboy » Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:56 pm

DING!<br><br>we have a winner.. too bad it can never be proven. <p>___________________________________________<br>"BushCo aren't incompetent...they are Complicit!" -Me<br><br>"Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act" -George Orwell<br><br>"When I despair, I remember that all through history the ways of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it - always." -Mahatma Gandhi</p><i></i>
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Or maybe this is par for the course

Postby johnny nemo » Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:38 pm

I lived in that area for some time growing up, so I have a unique perspective on this.....which is that there alot of insane people running around those parts.<br><br>It's the land of the "pizza bomber",<br>the land of nazi skinheads who murder their parents,<br>the land of 3 home invasions in the state capital in a week (Harrisburg, which is about 50 miles away from where the Amish shooting occured).<br><br>It's the land where children found a body in a field and reported it to the police.<br>When they were done digging it all up, they had found the remains of at least 10 teenage girls from nearby neighborhoods, who had been raped, murdered and buried.<br>Speculation was that it was someone who lived near them, but since there were no suspects, the whole story just disappeared.<br><br>It's the land where a former co-worker of mine was fired, then threatened to come down and shoot everybody at the job.<br>He was stopped entering the industrial park where the company was located.<br>He was drunk, armed and in posession of rope and zip ties (presumably he envisioned a hostage scenario).<br><br>So......It could be MKULTRA.<br><br>It could also be the product of someone spending countless hours watching TV under the cold, gray sky and finally snapping.<br><br>EDIT: Forgot to mention....it's also the land where a 14-year-old girl was strip-searched and suspended for two weeks from her school (near Harrisburg, Pa.), because during a classroom discussion about the Colorado shootings she said she could understand how unpopular students could be pushed so far that they would lash out violently. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=johnnynemo>johnny nemo</A> at: 10/4/06 5:41 pm<br></i>
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Re: Or maybe this is par for the course

Postby rain » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:27 pm

all good points, johnny n., and I thought about these, and more, before coming to the conclusion that the highest probability had to be m.c.<br>compare and contrast between bailey and the lancaster shootings. the m.o. and the thematics. <br>I'd even go so far as to suggest that these two guys were programmed by the same individual.<br>'cui bono' is easy, it's the 'how' that's more difficult.<br>there's already been hints dropped on this board that 'ways and means' are being used that are way out of the comprehension of the 'average' reader, even here. <br>for instance, my instinct on the amish incident is that, even if a history of 'therapy' or military service was available, it would more likely be a report of 'missing time', and I doubt very much that's going to happen .<br>and no, I don't think someone goofed, and sleepers got triggered prematurely. it looks way too strategic. although Masonic Plot's consideration of whether these shootings were 'tit for tat' for the 'pagegate' outings exercised me for a bit, I'd have to say it's more like a pincer movement on the collective psyche. and let's just throw in Hamlyn's sentencing for good measure.<br>the links with bush and montreal are worthy of note. l'd come to the tentative conclusion that the recent montreal incident, apart from serving to condition the public mind, was also like a 'live practice' session <br>as Jeff notes in his recent blog, there's a deafening silence around the 'mind control' issue, some of which I take to be like a 'gentleman's agreement' between the two camps of professionals.<br>and, there's no doubt, as Scott Dyleski reportedly said 'those things happen', (which is kind of ironic, because I, for one, believe him to be innocent), and let's face it, America, sure as hell is a weird place and a weird culture, where many just see these kinds of behaviour as well within the bounds of normality. but when, is a significant proportion of the population going to get it in their heads, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>the dices are loaded.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rain@rigorousintuition>rain</A> at: 10/4/06 8:42 pm<br></i>
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Re: rain's comment, gendercide, US wars

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:53 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> l'd come to the tentative conclusion that <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>the recent montreal incident</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, apart from serving <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>to condition the public mind</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>How about the 1989 Montreal incident two weeks before the US invasion of Panama?<br><br>Two characteristics that concern me-<br>1) The anti-female element. Misogeny is used to propel men into militarism by discrediting nurturing and tapping primal resentments against Mom, wife, lovers, even women transgressed against as seems to be the case in the Amish massacre.<br><br>2) There were 2 other massacres in proximity of US wars I can think of<br><br>>The Dec. 20, 1989 invasion of Panama which killed several thousand Panamanians while 'Vietnam Syndrome' was still in effect -<br>(14 women in Montreal allegedly killed for being "feminists" on Dec. 6, 1989) <br>>and the Mar. 23, 1999 NATO-Clinton-Clark bombing of Kosovo (13 people killed at Columbine high school April 20, 1999 with many unanswered questions and subsequent cover-up).<br><br>April 23 was a date that NATO used to re-state their position after killing many civilians and destroying infrastructure in violation of the Geneva Conventions. How convenient to have Columbine cover for them, ay?<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.nato.int/kosovo/history.htm">www.nato.int/kosovo/history.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> NATO's objectives<br><br>NATO's objectives in relation to the conflict in Kosovo were set out in the Statement issued at the Extraordinary Meeting of the North Atlantic Council held at NATO on 12 April 1999 and were <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>reaffirmed by Heads of State and Government in Washington on 23 April 1999:</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>So when an atmosphere of senseless domestic massacre arrives I, too, wonder if this isn't either psychic preparation for mass casualties in government war or distraction from the same.<br><br>See this website about 'gendercide' and the 1989 Montreal massacre-<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.gendercide.org/case_montreal.html">www.gendercide.org/case_montreal.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The act of gendercide<br><br>On the evening of December 6, 1989, shortly after 5 o'clock on the penultimate day of classes before the Christmas holidays, Lépine carried a concealed Sturm Ruger Mini-14 semi-automatic rifle into the École Polytechnique. His first female victim, Maryse Laganiere, was killed in a corridor. He then proceeded to Room 303, a classroom which held 10 women students and 48 men, along with a male professor. Firing two shots into the ceiling and shouting, "I want the women. I hate feminists!," Lépine enacted a gendercidal ritual that will be familiar to readers of other case-studies on this site (Kosovo, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Colombia) -- only this time, the victims were female. Separating the men from the women, he expelled the men at gunpoint, lined up the remaining women students against the wall, and began to fire. Six women died; the others were injured, but survived. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hughmanateewins>Hugh Manatee Wins</A> at: 10/4/06 9:53 pm<br></i>
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Re: rain's comment, gendercide, US wars

Postby rain » Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:16 am

thanx HMW.<br>'89 is also of interest here -<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.newsmakingnews.com/sexandcapitol7,18,01.htm">www.newsmakingnews.com/se...,18,01.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>on edit - perhaps I should put just a few of these here, although they'd go just as well in other threads -<br><br>........<br><br>In which we hear of the appointment of a coroner who had been convicted of bribery and who supposedly had been married to a Henry Vinson, a mortician who had operated a "call boy" service utilized by White House officials <br><br>This is the hook into a long story. <br><br>We now turn to some news stories that appeared in the Washington Times more than a decade ago, but apart from a few having to do with Barney Frank, these stories have never generated much attention. We then recover as full a story as can be constructed from accounts in the press, in chronological order. <br><br>"'CALL-BOY' SERVICE PROSPERS USING HIGH FINANCE, HIGH TECH," Paul M. Rodriguez and George Archibald , The Washington Times, June 20, 1989 <br>In which we see Henry Vinson's name first surface, along with Robert Chambers, a funeral director, who operated a call boy network that laundered money through umbrella organizations in the District of Columbia area, Florida, Kentucky and West Virginia. <br><br>"POWER BROKER SERVED DRUGS, SEX AT PARTIES BUGGED FOR BLACKMAIL," Michael Hedges and Jerry Seper, The Washington Times, June 30, 1989 <br>In which we learn of Craig J. Spence, who arranged midnight tours of the White House, threw lavish parties for the famous and powerful where cocaine was generously served, spent $20,000 a month on male prostitutes from a D.C. prostitution ring, and bragged of connections to the CIA, whom he worried might kill him and then make it look like a suicide.<br><br><br>"RNC CALLS SCANDAL A 'TRAGIC SITUATION,'" George Archibald and Paul M. Rodriguez, The Washington Times, Friday, June 30, 1989 <br>In which we learn of the resignation of an aide to Secretary of Labor Elizabeth Dole, and of the reaction of Rep. Barney Frank, who is "not surprised" by the revelations. <br><br>"White House mute on 'call boy' probe," Frank J. Murray, The Washington Times, July 7, 1989 <br>In which we learn that President Bush followed the story, and that a Uniformed Division officer of the Special Service, Reginald deGueldre, arranged the midnight White House tours for Craig Spence and two male prostitutes, and was moonlighting as Spence's bodyguard. <br><br>"Spence was target before raid on ring," Jerry Seper, and Michael Hedges The Washington Times, July 10, 1989 <br>In which we learn that Craig Spence brought a 15-year old boy on at least one of his midnight tours of the White House, that Spence asked detailed questions about the Delta Force operations, that he partied with former U.S. Attorney Joseph diGenova and his wife, Victoria Toensing, and that he bragged of having blackmailed a high-ranking Japanese politician, Motoo Shiina. <br><br>"Spence ma[y] be Shiina's downfall," Edward Neilan, The Washington Times, July 18, 1989 <br>In which we hear of the connections between Motoo Shiina, groomed to be a future prime minister of Japan, and Craig Spence: how Spence had made more than $700,000 from Shiina's Policy Study Group, and how Spence had refused to pay back a loan made by Shiina for the purchase of Spence's house. <br><br>"First lady not worried about hookers' tour of White House," Paul Bedard, The Washington Times, July 10, 1989 <br>In which we learn that First Lady Barbara Bush was not concerned about the security questions raised by midnight White House tours, but did think it good that the Washington Post had not followed the Times' story. <br><br>"Secret Service furloughs third White House guard ," Jerry Seper, and Michael Hedges, The Washington Times , July 26, 1989 <br>In which we hear that, contrary to earlier White House claims, 1 a.m. tours were "totally out of the ordinary." We also learn that Spence introduced a 15-year old boy to Ted Koppel in the Nightline studio right before one of the tours. <br><br>.........<br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rain@rigorousintuition>rain</A> at: 10/5/06 12:46 am<br></i>
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Re: rain's comment, gendercide, US wars

Postby streeb » Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:50 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>So......It could be MKULTRA.<br><br>It could also be the product of someone spending countless hours watching TV under the cold, gray sky and finally snapping.<br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>What's the difference?<br><br><br>ps. Yes, I'm being facetious. No, I'm not making light of a tragedy. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: rain's comment, gendercide, US wars

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:54 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Quote:So......It could be MKULTRA.<br><br> It could also be the product of someone spending countless hours watching TV under the cold, gray sky and finally snapping.<br><br><br><br>What's the difference?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Not at all facetious. Very astute.<br>Read up on hypnosis and behavior modification using imagery conditioning.<br><br>I've posted many times that TV and movies are filled with things learned from MK-ULTRA, right out in plain view and fed to our kids relentlessly.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: rain's comment, gendercide, US wars

Postby rain » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:27 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What's the difference?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>matter of degrees perhaps.<br><br>most, if you're to presume that that's what Roberts was doing, would / will just continue 'spending countless hours watching TV under the cold gray sky'.<br><br>whereas, a 'programme' will, what's that quote, 'apply the right amount of pressure, in the right place, at the right time'<br><br>but where's the leap of logic that an apparently 'average joe' kinda guy like this will 'snap' in this rather specific direction. and why just one? wouldn't you think there's enough people out there ready to 'snap' they'd be going off like fire-crackers all over the place.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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