Gas Prices: Peak Oil or Oil Company Conspiracy?

by **wintler** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:39 am

Peak oil fabricated? You'll have to do more than suggest a motive for doing so and citing gossip from your mileau to convince me. You don't say how. For e.g., do you believe all or any of the following are concious disinfo agents? Colin Campbell Jean Leherre Richard Duncan Les Magoon Julian Darley Matt Simmons Jan Lundberg (hint- they're all past or current proponents of 'peak oil' issues). Alternatively, or also, how do you believe the petro-geological fraud of declining discoveries and production is being perpetrated?

by **proldic** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:21 am

Thanks Prac, good one. Do you post here under a different name? If not, love to see more of your posts here. Wintler, short answer: oh yes, every one of them... Check out my long post on PO, where I show the false statements and questionable backgrounds of three of the major PO cheerleaders: <a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm19.showMessageRange?topicID=5.topic&start=21&stop=40">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...21&stop=40</a> The rest of them, besides their backgrounds, consistently engage in misrepresenting or actually falsifying data to suit their ends. What's most telling is how Colin Campbell refuses to debate one of the foremost anti-PO scientist-researchers, Michael Lynch, in a public setting. Because he knows Lynch'd kick his ass and make him look like the charlatan he is!

by **Prac** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:00 am

Proidic No; but I've posted here a few times usually making the observation that Oil Price spikes since the 1940's have always been followed by recession only to never ever have this obvious and to my mind fundamental fact followed up. It is important but not relevent because it is not sanctified by attention in the mainstream, or forums such as this. This long term scam has to be brought to the forefront... along with the sheer brutality extended to those working in the Free Energy area. They have branded as kooks with perpetual motion ideas. Many have been Welstoned or had there devices stolen or wrecked. And no-one could give a stuff. Its unbelievable... but our enshrined (by the Media) understanding of reality is locked in time with the mechanistic understanding of reality as seen by Isaac Newton (who was also the matser of the Mint in England). All of which leaves the Oil Inductry behind the curtain. Out of interest, the price of a barel of oil in January 2000 was about $12. Now it is near $70 and production from the Gulf of Mexico is smashed. Energy intensive General Motors and Ford are technically bankrupt andd no-one is concerned to bring the Oil connection forward. We've got to bring Oil and its connections to centre stage... and we've got to find a way to sever its power over us all. We've been had... and I've no doubt at all that most people know it. Oil is the System's jugular... and the Peak Oil diversionary PsyOp has been every well prepared. Will you help? ——————————— What's done in this world is what's paid for. ... Who's had the money?

by **proldic** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:50 am

Prac, It'd be nice to get some further posts from you on PO, economics, and related topics here if you've got the time. I don't know if you've followed the previous PO discussion, but a minority here, including myself, tend to agree with you. In this PO thread I touched on some of the things you're talking about in a mega-post of mine(scroll down a bit): <a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm19.showMessageRange?topicID=5.topic&start=21&stop=40">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...21&stop=40</a> I'd be interested to hear more of what you have to say regarding the suppression of free energy claims. Can't say I looked into it too deeply, but from what I could tell, I got the impression that a lot of those cases of harrasment were faked, or conflated beyond what they actually were. As far as "free energy" -- I've always been leery of endorsing it. In fact, I consider it just another side of the same coin, partner to the same scam as PO is. Considering that the ultimate "free" energy is solar and wind, and a combination of large-scale and decentralized solar and wind projects seems to be such an obvious answer to our energy needs, why debate over "free energy" too much? I mean, even PO-supporter Richard Heinberg, who I call the "pied piper of downsizing", says all it would take would be a 5x increase in wind turbine production to meet the majority of our domestic energy needs -- but of course he claims that that is politically impossible, and hence PO-induced cataclysm is our unavoidable future, so forget politics and build "lifeboats". Have you seen the movie "The End of Suburbia"? It is so insidious. A slick, well-produced piece of PO-downsizing propaganda that's making the rounds all over progressive communities in some mysterious concerted campaign led by crypto-fascist Ford-foundation think-tanks. Featuring James "clusterfuck" Kunstler, a real douchebag if their ever was one. Have you heard of it? If you're looking for activism, one thing to do is to seek out where that is playing in your area (if you are in an area that might host it) Check alternative weekly newspapers, Unitarians, enviro/left-group meetings. Show up with some info directly disputing the movie, and pointing out some of the many obvious (once people are shown them) flaws and false assumptions in it. Just to expose people to the other side of the debate is activism right now. It's sure to cause a dust-up, so think it out all the way, plan ahead, and have good material to hand out. It'd be a great service. Since National Geo front-paged it, the meme is everywhere. It's virulent as hell. The ultimate self-reinforcing big lie. I don't know if it's even combatable. But I guess we have to talk about our view now, or we're doomed for sure.

by **AnnaLivia** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:58 am

Hello, Coward. You can hurl false accusations, but you won’t answer for them, I see. Well now, isn’t that special? I guess you’re still getting off on your imaginings that you’re cool because angry drunken women…and men…are falling all over your charm? Listen up, Richard Cranium. Your words about peak oil are lethal if they help one person to keep thinking that there’s no need to start conserving earth-extracted-energy resources yesterday, or to modify our too-large-a-footprint lifestyles. Of course the profiteers are raking dough from the situation…DUH…HISTORY OF HUMANITY…but what part of “fossil fuels are a finite resource”, don’t you understand? What part of “digging carbons from under our feet and burning them into the air we breathe cannot continue at the escalating pace it’s on” don’t you understand? What part of “a gallon of gasoline does the work equivalent of two weeks manpower” don’t you understand? What part of “low prices = increased consumption” don’t you understand? i have already stated where the profits need to go. No, the powers that be are NEVER going to offer a decentralized source of energy voluntarily. That would go against the pillar that supports them all: cheap labor. Can’t be having that millstone taken from around the neck of joe lunchbox workingman, now can we? (would everyone please stop calling him joe-sixpack?) Whatever would the powers do if joe could make energy on his roof, and feed it back into the grid? Jesus, Joe might not be kept so over-a-barrel if that happened… But guess what. It takes energy from oil and products made from oil to make solar panels and wind turbines, and they need to be replaced eventually. Ready to help people realize they gotta conserve yet? and find new energy sources with all due haste? You sure seem to have an aversion to letting people know the inescapable truth. You proved you are looking desperately for a jew-hater behind every shrubbery when you accused Cindy Sheehan, but by going to the opposite extreme of warnings on peak oil, I think you’re a danger to everyone. People damn well better get a revulsion towards the idea of living unsustainably, or they’re DEAD.

by **Prac** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:06 pm

Proidic I've got limited time to post... owing as much as anything to Carer obligations for my aged parents. But I have been thinking about oil and the relationship between crude oil prices and economic experience for more than 30 years. Throughout this time I've tried to interest Media pundits in the fact that oil price spikes are always followed by recessions. I've tried to interest politicians, tried to get interest over the net at forums such as this. What you find is that people are locked into Left Right frames of thinking that may have had relevance once, but they don't now. Nowadays its top down, inLaw ouitLaw, mechanistic organic. The Left may have once been of the people but now it is just one side of the Elite coin. This is the source of the disjuncture of between ordinary people and the Left, ordinary people and the Right. It goes along wayto explain the gravitation of people to fundamentalist positions leading to serious social dislocation. For so long as the Left or Right can contain the anger of people in dificult circumstance the PTB win. This is the purpose of the Multitude of PsyOps to which we are subjected. With the New Orleans catastrophe, a new and compounding rascist element has been grotesquely introduced. And the PTB are clearly set to dump Bush... Who's the next 'Leader' on their agenda. People know now that elections can and have been rigged. So there are no guarantees that elected 'Leaders' will in any way represent the peoples' interests. And we also know from direct experience that all but everywhere Leaders surround thjemselves with Yes men and Media directed PsyOp managers. Even inteligence is being transformed so ensure that the facts can fit the Leader's or the Leader's handler's agenda. Since the 1980's (in response to the Oil spike induced recesions of the seventies) the fads promoted by Business Management Schools have gone like wildfire through all (almost all) of our pyramidically structured organisations. Workers became Human Resources, downsizing or rightsizing saw workers loose their jobs. Privatisation became a perfectly reasonable operational decision, and therefore none of the peoples' Government's businerss. New technologies opened up the classically mechanistic possibilty that Money savy Senior Manager's could do without Middle Management (drones) setting Missions, key performance indicators (add your own egs of managerial jargon. So it was that Middle Managers usually with some expeince of production were dispesed with. It didn't work... and a new swathe of Middle Managers were brought in, fresh from the business schools and filled with their crazy ideas. So the targets are set on high by people with almost necessarily no industry experience... and passed on by the new breed of Middle Manager, who lacks practical knowledge of the productive process. Communication, almost universally has lost any chance of being two way, bottom up as well as top down. Its top down only now, and the method the top uses is PsyOp. Problem reaction solution. Diversions to prevent people from acting in terms of what they know, irrespective of the Media spin, movie like trip thewir taking us through. But the Achilees heal of PsyOp is that these issues they continually put before us can only be successfully put there by hiding say 20% disinfo in a bed of 80% good oil. I'm all but sure now that the PTB knows that there is a Serious problem arising from Peak Oil. And remember that the Industrial economic frame sees Growth as made necessary and driven by population. From this point of view their is a macbre sense in seeing people as a drain of the productive system. This serious given the top down organisation stucture and the the Messianic agenda driven Leaders now about. The System shows every sign of splitting violently apart. Its a bit stange to take a leaf out of the patsy Neo-con book but things are to hang together we've got to focus on the driving force behind all this. What's done is what's paid for. And who's had the Money. BIG OIL and you can throw in the fiat banking system. This dreadful impasse is the product of their money logic based decsions. And everybody knows it. Its just that its not reality because its not covered on the Holy TV. And how could it be. It could be here. And if only we could get out of the Peak Oil PsOp's net we could go for it. The links of Oil to just about everthing are there to see. Give my a trouble spot anywhere in the world and oil is there. A word on free energy. All energy is essentially free. Oil is free. Its just that it costs to get it from where it is to where it needs to be. A physicist by training but not by profession, I've been intrigued by Tesla and others that have claimed to draw energy, not from matter like oil or coal... to which Newton's Laws of Thermodynamics apply... but from the electromagtic fields that are part and pacel of our universe. I don't remember how I found it but I joined a Yahoo group that turned out to be a group of tinkerers trying to replicate free energy devices. The thing that I like about this group is how co-operative they are, sharing information and celebrating eachother's success. And sharing gossip. They have got these devices to work. But the thing that stops them in their tracks is the impossibilty of getting funding for the next stage. And they show no real interest in self promotion. They continue on for survival reasons because they like everyone know that something is seriously amiss. If you are interested, I will check it out with them if they are prepared to come out from the cover of invisibility... which they value. Wasn't going to go on like this. I hope it makes some sense. I'd be interested in your comments. Hope its not too wacky.

by **wintler** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:23 pm

Proldic wrote: -- Check out my long post on PO, where I show the false statements and questionable backgrounds of three of the major PO cheerleaders: p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...21&stop=40 The rest of them, besides their backgrounds, consistently engage in misrepresenting or actually falsifying data to suit their ends. What's most telling is how Colin Campbell refuses to debate one of the foremost anti-PO scientist-researchers, Michael Lynch, in a public setting. Because he knows Lynch'd kick his ass and make him look like the charlatan he is! -- A long, long post it certainly is, but in it Proldic shows nothing except that he's mastered copynpaste (needs to work on fixing the formating afterwards tho). So much nonsense where to start. - peak oil might be depoliticising for some (not necesarily a bad thing), but it is & will increasingly be radicalising for all, far more than reading spooky stories on the web anyway. - Dave McGowans faith in abiotic oil isn't matched by ANY oil actually making it to market, never mind 83mil/bar/day we currently burn. - You (or was it Dave M again) used very selective quotation and snide comment to 'prove' your points against Campbell et al, and blatently misrepresent many. E.g. to claim that Heinberg is against distributed solar PV and wind generation is a flat lie, and i'm fairly sure he has never said 'doomsday' (your word) was inevitable. Its also bullshit about Campbell refusing to debate Lynch, they regularly appear at same conferences, but theres little to debate - Lynch believes absolutely in the USGS 2000 'statistical estimation' method of determining reserves, faith based science rules again. -None of your claims in that thread or here are backed by links to evidence. -And you didn't even try to explain how this fraud was being perpetrated, apart from misrepresenting some vocal proponents of it. But say it enough times and its true eh proldic & prac. By Rightthinks works shall we know it.

by **Dreams End** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:21 pm

why oh why is peak oil resurrected? We were all getting along so nicely! Oh well, this board has the freest of free speech. proldic knows I'm with him on this one. Here is a quote from a scientist not discussing peak oil that may provide some good advice: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Bertrand Russel once remarked that whenever experts disagree on a given subject, layman would do better by abstaining from a definite judgement. This is, however, only one of his famous sayings. There is a complementary one which needs to be taken into account as well: "Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. <a href="http://quantumfuture.net/quantum_future/thoughts_1.htm">quantumfuture.net/quantum...ghts_1.htm</a> <hr></blockquote> I just don't know how any of us can possibly know enough to debate this reasonably. And those who actually do know enough of the technical side really can't make a case that we laymen/women can appreciate. while some have come on here suggesting that Peak Oil is consensus, I consistently run across mainstream articles that suggest this isn't so. Not saying that this lack of consensus makes it wrong, but just that, as a layman, it will be awfully hard for me to come to any scientific conclusions. I think, therefore, while a purely scientific debate would be preferable, it's really impossible here...at least for me. I'm reduced to looking at how I trust or don't trust the messengers. FIrst off, though, I don't know that we all even agree about what "Peak Oil" is. One doesn't have to assume abiotic origins of oil (though some scientists do...and why do non-specialists on this board scoff at other non-specialists who find this work at least to represent a reasonable theory?) to assume that we are not going to run out tomorrow. (Tomorrow here represents what I would call the "immenent collapse" peak oil theorists.) IN fact, I assume many who believe in "peak oil" don't necessarily believe that beginning in a couple years will be a rapid downward cycle leading to the end of civiliation within a decade or so. I guess I'm suggesting that if someone wants to defend "peak oil" you might want to say if you are suggesting doomsday around the corner or doomsday coming up pretty soon but can't really say when, or even doomsday, but in 20 - 50 years. It makes a difference, for if the scenario is doomsday starting this thanksgiving, it implies we are really at a point of no return and actions are pointless to alleviate the problem. If it is doomsday but a little later, maybe there's some point to action after all. Those of us concerned about the validity of Peak Oil, I think, are less worried about defending abiotic oil. I, at least, don't speak enough Russian to even begin to get into that. Actually, I don't speak any Russian. Actually, even in English, I'm not informed enough to judge the value of that work. All I know is that some scientists believe it. No, what we are most concerned about is that SOME people are pushing peak oil for an agenda. Surely, even if some version of Peak Oil is real, everyone can still be cautious of some who push this agenda. There is a whole circle of people who simply are pushing the idea that the world is headed for a population collapse down to 2 billion people or so. Those of us who've bothered to look at some of the very questionable people and foundations pushing the idea of "depopulation" get REALLY nervous when this theme emerges...whether in Peak Oil or anything else. (See remarks on Rockefeller, Pioneer Fund and various depopulation theorists quoted in the context of Peak Oil collapse scenarios) In addition, some of us get concerned with specific popularizers of Peak Oil, such as Mike Ruppert and the other writers on his site, because they hypothesize that Peak Oil is the only issue that is relevant and really the sole underlying cause of all the evil we see around us. (that's intentional hyperbole, but only slight, from my reading of Ruppert). So activists should stop wasting their time on things like 9/11. In addition, surely we can all agree that oil companies are not nice people (you did know that, in the US, corporations are persons, didn't you?). So, it's entirely reasonable to look carefully at any claim which would INEVITABLY LEAD TO DRAMATIC PRICE INCREASES IN OIL. I've seen some argue peak oil actually by tracking oil prices. Oh, prices are rising - this proves oil supply is diminishing. I think the Enron scandal has shown us that this is not a valuable technique. (No one on this board has done this, from what I remember.) The fact that peak oil has made it into the mainstream and that one participant in our last clusterfuck actually quoted a CHEVRON AD to make the point that we were running out of oil, suggests that, true or nor, the oil companies are going to spin it however they want to get the maximum profit. So I think we can agree that, even if Peak Oil is real, the THEME of Peak Oil can be manipulated in ways that are not for the benefit of the masses, to say the least. I think we can also agree that a lot of things that Peak Oil might lead to could also come along in the absence of Peak Oil but with the collusion of Big Oil. Engineered shortages, for example, will be hard for us to tell from real shortages. Finally, Peak Oil can justify to some (no one on this board, mind) that not only is the US policy of dominating oil producing nations a result of Peak Oil, but that, given our reality, such invasions ARE A NECESSARY EVIL. Again, no one on this board suggests this, but that is a true danger from this way of thinking. Notice, this could be true with or without the reality of Peak Oil. That is, there could be plenty of oil, but since so much of it is in a few countries, grabbing those countries makes sense whether we have 5 years of oil or 50. Whether or not Peak Oil is real, letting China or Russia have influence over those regions represents a violation of our interests (I'm talking "realpolitik" here...how THEY think, not me.). In fact, unless I'm very much mistaken, control over oil producing nations has been a theme in US foreign affairs since long before peak oil concerns came along. So both sides can see the US invasion of Iraq as being about oil even without agreeing that this is evidence that the world is running out of the stuff. Both sides can see oil prices rising but without agreeing that the cause is that we are at the "peak." Heck both sides can even agree that oil is biotic in origin and that it is a finite resource without agreeing about the exact timeline of the end of oil nor the role it plays in our immediate future. I'm going to end this by reprinting an article. This article is about Steve Forbes' analysis that high oil prices are a result of SPECULATION, and like the dot.com bubble, will come crashing down and make the dot com collapse look absolutely bullish. I print this, not because it "disproves" peak oil (I fully acknowledge that I am not equipped to do so) but because it is one of many articles I run across that contradict peak oil to some degree. It suggests, in other words, that those of us who are skeptical of peak oil are not blithering idiots. It suggests, in other words, that peak oil is not self-evident, axiomatic or in any other ways obvious to even those of moderate intelligence such as myself. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Forbes warns of oil bubble James McCullough and Mandi Zonneveldt 31aug05 PUBLISHING billionaire Steve Forbes has predicted that soaring oil prices will lead to a crash that could make the hi-tech bust of 2000 "look like a picnic". Mr Forbes, publisher of Forbes magazine, said the price of oil, which peaked at more than $US70 a barrel on Monday as Hurricane Katrina headed for the US Gulf Coast, was unsustainable. He said factors such as inflation and increased demand for oil from China and India accounted for only a small part of the price hike from $US25-30 a barrel three years ago. "The rest of it is sheer bubble speculation," he said. Mr Forbes, who was speaking at the opening of the Forbes Global CEO Conference in Sydney yesterday, said the higher the oil price rose, the harder it would eventually crash, creating more pain for hedge fund managers and their clients. "I don't think it's going to go to $US100 but if it does the crash is going to be even more spectacular," he said. "It will make the hi-tech bubble look like a picnic -- this thing is not going to last." He predicted that oil would fall to $US30-35 a barrel within a year. Mr Forbes's comments came as the price of oil eased following US Government comments that it could release some of its Strategic Petroleum Reserve. The 700 million barrel stockpile is set aside for emergency use and could be used to counter oil shortages caused by Katrina's impact on the Gulf of Mexico, which accounts for about a quarter of US output. <hr></blockquote>

by **AnnaLivia** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:01 pm

i'll put it up one more time: <a href="http://smalley.rice.edu/smalley.cfm?doc_id=4862">smalley.rice.edu/smalley.cfm?doc_id=4862</a> choose from the list, the video where he speaks at Columbia University. yeah, folks, it's long, and it's a lecture. but you won't find better information. Richard Smalley is a REAL SMART man who says we need miracles, and has already made the kind of miracles he speaks of. and notice how he has not at all forgot the poor of this world. go ahead, Proldic. watch the damn thing and then expose for us why Richard Smalley should be dismissed. he seems pretty concerned about the whole situation since it's a rate and magnitude problem, yet, like me, he knows we could get out of this if we only would. the consequences of ignoring the fact that no one has a crystal ball on this and we will only ever know when the peak happened by looking in the rearview mirror....... are staggering. place your bets.

by **Prac** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:11 pm

Wintner, You lump me in with proidic when all I've been trying to do is get beyond this Peak Oil is real, no its not, inconclusive issue. For the record, I don't know whether Peak Oil is imanent or not. On balance I think is. But how can I know? How can you? What I do know is that Peak Oil, the issue, is very good for OilCo profits, and very bad for the economy generally. Its the ultimate geo-political concern... and isn't interesting that anxiety inducing events seem to be attracted to places blessed with or cursed with oil reserves, like flies to a light. I can't give you evidence that would resolve the Peak Oil issue one way or the other to everyone's satisfaction, despite the fact that I've been living with this issue since the late sixties. But the issue has a purpose and that's to hide from our view the fact that Oil-cos have been running a scam for a very long time. That's all I have been trying to say. And I get really pissed when I get lumped in with one side or the other in this diversionary argument. I get pissed because all we do is fiddle, as is the custom these days, whilst Rome burns and people die, unecessarily. The way out of all this is to rely on what we know... scaping the bullshit from the truth which always is to be found as cover for disinfo designed to always sucks us into mindless inconclusive and frightenly divisive argument and violent behavior. Oh yeah. Back to the argument. I'm right, you're wrong. Its such fun. And it passes the time.

by **Dreams End** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:23 pm

I'm reminded of the "can we create hurricanes" thread, which then links to people discussing hyperdimensional physics. Come on, folks. Be honest. How many of you really understand hyperdimensional physics that well? I used to, of course, buy my subscription to Hyperdimensional Physics and Home Decorating Weekly expired last year. Same with Peak Oil. ALP, you can quote or cite all the smart people you want. I'm sure they are. But there are other smart people who say differently. That doesn't disprove anything, of course, just shows why there can be genuine disagreement not born of obstinancy and stupidity. By the way, no one who is skeptical of peak oil is, by definition, advocating that we have no conservation measures. Even if there were a fairly abundant supply of oil, conservation makes sense. Again, being skeptical of Peak Oil really is about questioning the claims that a) there is an impending collapse that is nearly totally a result of peak oil and will likely result in a "die off" and b) that peak oil is really the only issue worth analysing or organizing around. THIS is what we are most concerned about...well, that and the fact that if Peak Oil is accepted rather uncritically by the masses then no one will protest when gas is 8 bucks a gallon. Again...these concerns don't disprove peak oil, but we wonder why pro-peakers find these concerns irrelevant? Oh, yes, because the science is so clear that to question it is stupid. Well, my stupid brain finds a variety of scientific opinions out there, so I will have to keep stupidly being cautious about peak oil claims. (Note: no one actually called me stupid...just making a point in shorthand).

by **AnnaLivia** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:53 pm

it is very risky to feed the inertia even a morsel. Richard Smalley will not lead you astray, my friends. AnnaLivia promises you this.

by **Prac** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:50 am

The Lies To Hike The Price Of Oil From David Icke's Email List Sept-03-2005 A more appropriate title for this piece would have been "Orchestrating Financial Collapse". Admittedly the hardest part of observing the unfolding of a prearranged history is connecting the dots. More to the point, to be able to see how all things are connected and work in concert to achieve a desired goal. So I'd like to throw some things out that the public at large doesn't know and never would. What I am about to tell is common knowledge in oil circles but the worker ants at the bottom of the pyramid never question what they see. I was an eye witness to what I am going to relate and there are a good many others who could come forward if only they will. In 2000, I worked in the Gulf of Mexico for two different OSV companies that provided support services to the "oil patch". The two companies did very different work for the oil companies so I got to get an eye full. The first thing that I'd like to expose is the fact that nearly all of the new wells in the gulf are immediately capped off and forgotten about. I saw well after well brought in only to see them capped off and left. Oil or natural gas it didn't matter. I asked a couple of petroleum engineers what exactly was going on and I was told by both (they worked for different companies) that there was no intention of bringing that oil to market until the "price was right". That wasn't the only bogus thing that was happening. Seismic technology had developed to the point that they could not only tell the companies where the oil was but how much oil was there. All they had to do was go out and stick a straw in and suck it out. They didn't. Once again, the oil prices weren't right. When they are ready and want it they know right where to go get it. Another lie I'd like to lay to rest is the one about all of the "terrible damage" done to the oil platforms and rigs in the gulf during hurricanes. This is how they justify the price spikes that occur because of lost production. If anyone cared to see this for themselves they could travel the entire Gulf of Mexico in search of destroyed oil rigs and they won't find any- not one. There is a damed good reason that this is so and that reason is that they are built so well that a hurricane can't touch them. Think about it . If you're going to build something in an area where you are guaranteed to see 150-180 mph winds, storm swells up to 60-80 feet and it will happen year after year, how would you build them? Out of chicken wire and duct tape? Hell no and they don't. The platforms are designed to offer almost no wind resistance and the majority of platforms are at least 120 feet above the water level. They are built so well that several of them have suffered direct hits by watercraft of all sizes with little harm. They were damaged but they were far from destroyed. The reason that I know how well they are constructed is because for awhile I worked with a company that salvaged derelict oil rigs. When the wells ran dry and the oil companies didn't need them any more the company that I worked for would buy them, take them apart, haul them back to land, refurbish and then resell them. It is an incredible process to take these things apart because they are constructed so well. I've worked on the boats that hauled explosives to the job sites to speed the disassembly process. Another lie regards the "burp" in the supply line. Oil companies are as stingy as any on earth and one of the ways that they cut costs is to eliminate the number of people that they need on a rig to keep it running. Most active wells are totally automated and require almost no human intervention. The oil companies have guys that travel from rig to rig via helicopter to check on things periodically but most never see a human on them unless something goes wrong or some maintenance is needed. During a hurricane about the only rigs that need to be evacuated are the drill rigs that have workers on them. The active wells and pumping stations are controlled by remote control from the shore and if it weren't for the evacuation of land based personnel from areas where there is danger from the hurricanes these things could continue to pump right through the worst hurricane. So, regarding a burp in the supply chain there shouldn't be one and that is because most of the oil from the Gulf of Mexico goes to the refinerys at Port Arthur or other points in Texas and the tankers from the middle east go to Galveston to offload. When oil moves across the Atlantic during hurricane season the tanker traffic may have to kill some time to let a storm get ahead of them but once it does they haul ass right behind it. Anyone who has seen how fast an oil tanker can move in open water will tell you that they don't dawdle around. Most of them can move around 30-40 knots and for a ship that size that baby is moving on. The only reason they would have to kill any more time would be if a hurricane suddenly changed course and was headed for Galveston. So far this year that hasn't happened. So why the "break" in supply? Everything that we hear about oil from the oil companies is a big fat lie. Have we hit "peak oil" as a good many insist that we have? I'll make a wager with anyone who would care to take the bet. I bet that when oil hits $100 a barrel (I have a hunch that's the target price) there will be no shortage. Any takers? One of the most astounding things to watch when the elite swing into action is what I call conservation of movement. If you had three events that you wanted to set into motion you could apply the necessary pressure separately to all three to get them moving. Or you could do what these guys do and wait patiently until you see the right opportunity to apply the pressure in only one spot that will move the other two with the momentum from the first. The difference is whether something is pushed or pulled along. It"s as graceful as a ballet to watch in motion. No wasted motion, no wasted energy, it would almost be a thing of beauty if it weren't for the rotten purposes behind it all. So for all of the kiddies that are waiting for their draft notices I would say don't bother, I don't think that there will be a draft. They won't need one. Since the all volunteer military came into being recruitment has always had an inverse relationship to the economy. The better the economy the harder it is to get recruits. We're facing a winter season in North America that may see heating costs equal to a family's house payment. If our weather is being controlled expect it to be a bad one. With $100 dollar a barrel oil on the horizon and the ensuing loss of jobs because of energy costs the military will be one of the only places a young man or woman will be able to eat on a regular basis and keep a roof over their heads. The beltway fascists have said all along that there would be no draft because they wouldn't need one. Don't you have to wonder how they knew this (what is it you say- just a coincidence nothing to worry about)? God does work in mysterious ways. The neocons need cannon fodder for their war machine and lo and behold mysterious market forces drop it on their doorstep. For another coincidence take a look at Social Security here in the US.Amazing how the price of oil began a sudden rise when it became apparent that the American people weren't going to allow their retirement money to be "privatized". When the carrot didn't work the stick wasn't far behind.

by **wintler** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:15 am

I apologise Prac if you do not concur with Proldic's copynpaste smearing of Campbell et al. I'll spare you my excuses, they couldn't justify misrepresenting you. I'll be brass-necked (slang - shameless) enough tho to run with a few points you made: >"For the record, I don't know whether Peak Oil is imanent or not. On balance I think is. But how can I know? How can you? >What I do know is that Peak Oil, the issue, is very good for OilCo profits, and very bad for the economy generally. Its the ultimate geo-political concern... and isn't interesting that anxiety inducing events seem to be attracted to places blessed with or cursed with oil reserves, like flies to a light." Prac Nobody can or will know when the peak of oil production hits, thanks to the secrecy of exporting nations and oil co's. We might notice it some years after the fact (e.g. just now reports emerging that OPEC appears to have peaked for sweet light crude last year). 'Fortunately', the actual date/year is of less interest than the fact it WILL happen (which, finally, nobody is denying), and that we're WOEFULLY unprepared for it. The Hirsch DOE/SAIC report of 2004 said if had ten to twenty years preparation, might scrape thru with minimal inconvenience, and only the fundamentalist economists of USDOE & IEA think we've possibly got more than that. So worry less about when, more about how to cope. That oil production will peak/has peaked and will decline doesn't preclude any number of other conspiracies being true, such as price gouging by oil co's, or sabotage of extraction-production, etc. But they're separate issues. Proving oil co's are greedy doesn't prove theres infinite oil. Observing that the Iraq invasion hiked the oil price doesn't prove theres infinite oil. Claiming the a very few special wells appear to be refilling very slowly (the ''abiotic oil' case) doesn't prove theres infinite oil, not in the context of a planet that burns 83mil/bar/day. Dreams End, thanks for pasting Steve Forbes very public prediction on oil price, but have you heard what Steve Forbes is saying to SUBSCRIBERS of his investment advice newsletter? <a href="http://www.kerrynettle.org.au/600_media_sub.php?deptItemID=433">www.kerrynettle.org.au/60...ItemID=433</a> The subscriber only Forbes Professional Timing Service states: "THE MOST IMPORTANT ADVICE I HAVE GIVEN IN 20 YEARS" "expect to see crude move to $65.00 this summer and to $76.00 by early next year." "..the so-called terror premium in crude prices - which will remain until we see at least three years of peace in the fertile crescent". And, "We are at the point where the rubber hits the road, and the only rationing mechanism for whomever gets the available supply will be higher prices." So Steve Forbes is conning his subscribers and levelling with JoeQCitizen? Not likely. Which fades nicely into a point Mr Icke makes, predicting there will be no lack of supply at $100/barrel - he's right (even a broken clock..), because nobody will be able to AFFORD those prices, indeed thats exactly what the IEA etc mean by demand destruction, their preferred method of dealing with supply constraints - starve the serfs out of the market. Its already happening in Africa and SE Asia. The rest of Mr Icke's piece throws little light on the subject, consisting of no actual evidence but much opinion on the value of some capped wells in the GOM (prob the most heavily explored region on earth after Texas). There are long arguments on why thats nonsense, i'll cut to the shortest one: after 5 years of rising oil prices, after multiple calls from GWB & the IEA for everyone to pump all they've got, how come those wells are still capped? Why aren't the capitalists capitalising on their exploration investment? Mr Icke's opinions on the robustness of rigs are fascinating, wonder if he'll call FRAUD on the 20 rigs already noted as lost and no doubt being claimed for insurance? No doubt he's compiling EVIDENCE of his claims as i type, but convincing ppl that Chevron would turn down $70/barrel and use of a rig for the sake of an aged insurance payout will take some serious evidence. I could go on, but oil depletion isn't RI's focus (see peakoil.com, peakoil.net, energybulletin.net, ...). I will however take any (what i see as) misrepresentation of the depletion case to task. Again, i apologise to Prac and thank him/her for helping to keep the standards of this board high.

by **Prac** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:46 am

Thanks Wintner, Appologies accepted. I absolutely agree with you (and probably those on both sides of the "Peak OIl" PsyOp do also) that we'll have to learn how to cope without oil. It doesn't matter how much oil the OilCos may have squirreled away till the price of crude is right, $100... and then $200... and then? They're bastards, just like herion dealers taking advantage of their having got us cheaply to the point of total dependency. Its not just now that they've done us ill. Their game goes back a long way.... and I contend it warrants scrutiny much more than whether or not Peak Oil is here, or soon will be. How is it that the Rockefellers have been able to use their wealth to shape just about every aspect of our lives? (Think Education, think Big Pharma) Why is it that so many Oil people are in and close to the Whitehouse... and why is it not a scandall? BigMedia. How is it that the crazy neo-cons have been able to gain their influence and set the US on insane imperialist adventure BIG OIL is everywhere. And why? Simply because of consummate, ever increasing wealth stemming from the massively and grotesquely increased margin they got controlling the taps in the Middle East, post WWII; all the while reaping advantage of natural or stimulated geopolitical events (everywhere there was oil) to ratchet up the oil price. So hooked are we on the drug that only they can provide that every oil price spike since the 1940's has been followed by recession. Why does that fact not lead to action to find alternatives? First, everyone knows it even as it is never acknowedge in the Holy media. And because there is nothing new in the observation, when it is made it attracts not attention. What's known can't be that significant, can it? The OilCos have been so obscenely enriched that their actions are beyond scrutiny. Everyone has bought off so well that they can hide behind the curtain, leaving it the elCIAda, Mossad, the CIA, and GBW now, to take the rap for failure or disater incredibly vulnerable world their ivestment decsions have us placed in. Their product has been energy, and what we live in is a machine that only they can power. How to cope in the face of all this? Another time... if anyone is interested... but we won't be able to whilst the OilCos call the shots. They have to be put under scrutiny... along with the whores in the Media and just about everywhere else who've been bought off in return for their never, ever, looking behind the curtain. "Peak Oil", the PsyOP, is real, and a distraction, along with all the issues put before us for debate.

Gas Prices: Peak Oil or Oil Company Conspiracy?

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Peak Oil = Psy Op

Peak Oil = PsyOP

PO = PsyOp

Re: Prol-op

Peak Oil = PsyOp

don't you worry about that

Re: don't you worry about that

Re: science

"Peak Oil" = PsyOp

Re: "Peak Oil" = PsyOp

Re: gambling

The OilCo scam

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The Long-going and On-going OilCo scam

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