Pope 'sorry' his speech is seen as hurtful to Muslims

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Re: Deus Vult

Postby Sweejak » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:17 pm

I don't know yet. If you look at other statements I'm not able to arrive at a conclusion.<br>There is no doubt that it was impolitic.<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Ratzinger threw the pitch and the corporate media hit it right up the middle. <br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Yes that's what I see, but he throws a lot of pitches.<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=84185&eng=y">www.chiesa.espressonline....4185&eng=y</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br> Nevertheless he or his advisors should have known that this pitch would be inflammatory. Personally I would have liked him to balance the statement by tending to war party christofascists or dare I say Jewish supremacists.<br><br>And on a related story:<br><br>While not a classic psy-op there are indications that the killing of Fr. Andrea Santoro has motives other than religious fanaticism, and the possible use of religion to shield another motive. This is not to say that there is no religious hostility, but that at least in this incident it may be something entirely different. In any event the division and suspicion is a perfect feeding ground for manipulation.<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=5310">www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=5310</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The second line of inquiry suggests possible links to trafficking in Christian prostitutes from the former Soviet Union. Since his arrival in Trabzon two years ago, Father Andrea was involved in helping young women get out of the sex business. Recently, he had travelled to Georgia to establish contacts with the local Church and find support for these women. According to this hypothesis, traffickers in women might have hired a hit-man telling him to shout “Allah Akhbar” to hide the real motive and set the police on the wrong track.<br><br>Trabzon’s Prefect Huseyin Yavuzdemir told Turkish daily Vatan that the Italian priest had received threatening phone calls and death threats in the past.<br><br>The murder is front-page news today in the Turkish press with opinions unanimously disconcerted and saddened. Even the Islamic paper Yeni Shafak called the incident a “Cowardly provocation”. For its part, the daily Milliyet said that a religious-political motive is likely behind the murder whose instigators are probably bent on provoking a conflict between Islam and Christianity, which currently does not and has no reason to exist in Turkey.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Maybe this was a 'lone gunman' episode. But I note that the Danish Cartoons play a part, and that was an intentional, designed psychological operation, one that is apparently still bearing "fruit".<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/word021706.htm">www.nationalcatholicrepor...021706.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Muhammad's sword

Postby AlicetheCurious » Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:12 am

<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>The story about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims - the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>In his lecture at a German university, the 265th Pope described what he sees as a huge difference between Christianity and Islam: while Christianity is based on reason, Islam denies it. While Christians see the logic of God's actions, Muslims deny that there is any such logic in the actions of Allah.<br><br>As a Jewish atheist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate. It is much beyond my humble abilities to understand the logic of the Pope. But I cannot overlook one passage, which concerns me too, as an Israeli living near the fault-line of this "war of civilizations".<br><br>In order to prove the lack of reason in Islam, the Pope asserts that the Prophet Muhammad ordered his followers to spread their religion by the sword. According to the Pope, that is unreasonable, because faith is born of the soul, not of the body. How can the sword influence the soul?<br><br>To support his case, the Pope quoted - of all people - a Byzantine emperor, who belonged, of course, to the competing Eastern Church. At the end of the 14th century, Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus told of a debate he had - or so he said (its occurrence is in doubt) - with an unnamed Persian Muslim scholar. In the heat of the argument, the emperor (according to himself) flung the following words at his adversary:<br><br><br>Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached. <br><br><br>These words give rise to three questions: (a) Why did the Emperor say them? (b) Are they true? (c) Why did the present Pope quote them?<br><br>When Manuel II wrote his treatise, he was the head of a dying empire. He assumed power in 1391, when only a few provinces of the once illustrious empire remained. These, too, were already under Turkish threat.<br><br>At that point in time, the Ottoman Turks had reached the banks of the Danube. They had conquered Bulgaria and the north of Greece, and had twice defeated relieving armies sent by Europe to save the Eastern Empire. On 29 May 1453, only a few years after Manuel's death, his capital, Constantinople (the present Istanbul), fell to the Turks, putting an end to the empire that had lasted for more than a thousand years.<br><br>During his reign, Manuel made the rounds of the capitals of Europe in an attempt to drum up support. He promised to reunite the church. There is no doubt that he wrote his religious treatise in order to incite the Christian countries against the Turks and convince them to start a new crusade. The aim was practical, theology was serving politics.<br><br>In this sense, the quote serves exactly the requirements of the present Emperor, George Bush II. He, too, wants to unite the Christian world against the mainly Muslim "Axis of Evil". Moreover, the Turks are again knocking on the doors of Europe, this time peacefully. It is well known that the Pope supports the forces that object to the entry of Turkey into the European Union.<br><br>Is there any truth in Manuel's argument?<br><br>The pope himself threw in a word of caution. As a serious and renowned theologian, he could not afford to falsify written texts. Therefore, he admitted that the Qur'an specifically forbade the spreading of the faith by force. He quoted the second Sura, Verse 256 (strangely fallible, for a pope, he meant Verse 257) which says: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith."<br><br>How can one ignore such an unequivocal statement? The Pope simply argues that this commandment was laid down by the Prophet when he was at the beginning of his career, still weak and powerless, but that later on he ordered the use of the sword in the service of the faith. Such an order does not exist in the Qur'an. True, Muhammad called for the use of the sword in his war against opposing tribes - Christian, Jewish and others - in Arabia, when he was building his state. But that was a political act, not a religious one; basically a fight for territory, not for the spreading of the faith.<br><br>Jesus said: "You will recognize them by their fruits." The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: how did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to "spread the faith by the sword"?<br><br>Well, they just did not.<br><br>For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.<br><br>True, the Albanians did convert to Islam, and so did the Bosniaks. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopted Islam in order to become favourites of the government and enjoy the fruits.<br><br>In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith - and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.<br><br>There no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the "spreading of the faith by the sword"?<br><br>What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics reconquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi ("Spanish"<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START ;) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.<br><br>Why? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book". In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll tax, but were exempted from military service - a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion - because it entailed the loss of taxes.<br><br>Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.<br><br>The story about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims - the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions.<br><br>Why did he utter these words in public? And why now?<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>There is no escape from viewing them against the background of the new Crusade of Bush and his evangelist supporters, with his slogans of "Islamofascism" and the "global war on terror" - when "terrorism" has become a synonym for Muslims. For Bush's handlers, this is a cynical attempt to justify the domination of the world's oil resources. Not for the first time in history, a religious robe is spread to cover the nakedness of economic interests; not for the first time, a robbers' expedition becomes a Crusade.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>The speech of the Pope blends into this effort. Who can foretell the dire consequences? <br><br>Uri Avnery is an Israeli author and activist. He is the head of the Israeli peace movement, "Gush Shalom". <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en">zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15089.htm">www.informationclearingho...e15089.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Muhammad's sword

Postby AlicetheCurious » Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:11 am

One of the many bitter ironies of history, is that if it weren't for ('fascist', 'fanatic', 'terrorist') Islam and Muslims, there would probably BE no Jews left today. They would all have been killed or forced to convert by the so-called Christians, unlike those who fled to Muslim-controlled lands. <br><br>Today, the neocons, "Christian Right" and the Zionists, claiming to represent Christianity and Judaism, have joined forces to dehumanize and enslave and rob Muslims in their own lands.<br><br>As some would say, no good deed goes unpunished, eh?<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Pope did it deliberately

Postby sarabite » Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:38 pm

I have no doubt that Papa Ratzi thought the geopolitical implications of his speech out very, very carefully. First, the timing was symbolic. It was done at the very time of year that his predecessor would often go up to Assisi to hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" with the heathen.<br><br>Secondly, the venue was his old school where he had taught. He was surrounded by people who would understand, and it was a lecture, so he had the excuse he was just talking with his homies. Of course, as Pope, he or his advisors would know that his every word would be scrutinized far beyond.<br><br>Thirdly, he dug up an obscure ancient quotation he could easily distance himself from.<br><br>However, one has to admire the sheer chutzpah of the Roman Pope and former head of the modern Inquisition, to actually suggest with a straight face that using violence to create converts is <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>wrong</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->! Wow!<br><br>A few paragraphs on, however, he suggested something even worse, that fortunately has not been caught by the outraged Muslims, as far I know. It is a point he obviously wanted to make and at the same time keep a good distance from himself.<br><br>This time he again quotes a scholar who quotes another scholar who quotes a Muslim scholar who said that <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>“God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God’s will, we would even have to practice idolatry.”</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Now that sounds just a little to me that he’s saying that to Muslims God could be a <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>crazy liar and a devil</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->!<br><br>If that ain't inflammatory, what is?<br><br>The reason he did it? Simple. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>The Roman Church is opposed to Turkey entering the European Union</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> because they want it to remain a Christian (or former Christian) club. Ain't hard to guess why, considering who the top dog Christian in Europe is.<br><br>Yea, blessed are the peacemakers...<br><br>Jay<br>www.renegadecatholic.com/blog <p></p><i></i>
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