Terrific article

by **chiggerbit** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:20 pm

Although I find some of the writer's points offensive, the overall theme seems to be whether the focus should be microscopic or macroscopic. And that is a vaild point. Should the point be HOW it happened or WHY it happened? When we ask whether 9/11 was a "success" for whoever did it, do we focus microscopically on squibs or do we focus on macroscopically on offensive foreign policy, racism, partisan journalism together with a miserably poorly-informed and less-than-educated American public? I believe that whoever did 9/11 considers it a resounding success. Shouldn't the question be about what we can do to prevent similar tragedies in the future? It seems to me that the same answers apply whether it was "Islamo-fascists" or whether it was a secret American "Christo-fascist" organization. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chiggerbit@rigorousintuition>chiggerbit</A> at: 9/23/06 12:25 pm

by **Hugh Manatee Wins** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:38 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Five years on, what was the rump of discussion? Not US foreign policy, not America's role in the world, not capitalism, not even oil, which always was too easy, and surely not Palestine. It was NORAD and Building 7 and "scrambling" and demolition charges.<hr></blockquote> Gee, and just how does 9/11 as false flag terrorism influence "US foreign policy, America's role in the world, capitalism, oil, and Palestine"? DIRECTLY. How fucking obvious is that? VERY.. The author of this article is either too clueless to dress themselves, a PNAC-lovin' fascist, or a disinfo artist attempting to slow the contagion of PTSD ('Post Thermate Swindle Discovery'). And there is a plethora of efforts to contain that truth virus which is such a threat to elite war-profiteering and social control. Don't let shit like this ride for a minute.

by **Dreams End** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:34 pm

Qutb always makes me think and I've been thinking some more. The statement that this sort of conspiracy theory has become the peace movement...that's interesting...wrong, but interesting. One thing that's interesting is a diametrically opposed article which was just posted there. Well, diametrically is too strong...it's a LIHOP with, consistent with COUNTERPUNCH views, Israel and Mossad as the primary instigators. <a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/johnstone09152006.html">www.counterpunch.org/johnstone09152006.html</a> Secondly, it is interesting also because Counterpunch does engage in Conspiracy theory regularly...the conspiracy that a group of neocons hijacked the entire US government at the behest of Israel. That's a pretty serious conspiracy in my view. The left still, for the most part, rejects the sort of theorizing that the article discusses, which is why the article's characterization of the anti-war movement consisting of this is rather odd. Check out ANSWER, check out "World Cant' Wait" and "Not in Our Name" or "United for Peace and Justice." No one is putting out this theme, with the one exception of the "Israel is the real culprit theme" there's no real discussion of this sort of conspiracy theory. But it is true that, despite the left's general rejection of Conspiracy, this sort of thinking has started to "invade" the left. It just started happening here in Nasvhille when both Peak Oil and Loose Change seem to have landed at almost the same time. But I happen to think this is deliberate and part of a plan...i.e. the spreading of conspiracy theories of an unlikely or unproveable variety is being done for a variety of reasons such as to create distraction and misdirections and to continue to promote themes that fertilize a growing neofascist movement. In fact, I will go so far as to say that much of this is being done as a prelude to basically setting Israel loose as that country has outlived much of its usefulness to the US. Obviously time will tell if I'm just as nutty as the rest of them. There are deep, deep politics at work here. I think Qutb found the Heinberg/Dugin stuff of interest. I now am fairly certain that local far "left" groups, the WWP (who work with Ramsey Clark) and RCP (behind "not in our name" and "world can't wait") are part of a growing "red brown alliance"...far right meets far left. National Bolsheviks, etc. I am almost certain that I saw an article showing the WWP embracing this sort of movement and I'll do my best to hunt it down. And I don't think this is just some organic phenomenon. Long before this current war and even before the left had completely rejected Israel, I had assumed RCP was an FBI/COINTELPRO operation. Many, many others I knew assumed the same thing. From their disruptive behavior in the US (disruptive to other left groups) to their embrace of "Shining Path" one of those "maoist" groups that seem to spend much of their time killing other leftists (and, I am almost certain) utilizing MC/brainwashing techniques a la Patty Hearst as part of the process...but that's speculation...but read about them...Jesus.) they were assumed by many to be provocateurs at best. Now they are at the heart of a variety of mainstream anti-war projects with a CIA agent as one of their spokespeople. Aha...and here's some info about WWP embrace of "left fascism". I wont' reprint, but it makes the point. It's not talking about the National Bolshevik party but the WWP's embrace of a similar pseudo-left fascist party, the RCWP. <a href="http://www.infoshop.org/pipermail/infoshop-news/2001-December/000339.html">www.infoshop.org/pipermail/infoshop-news/2001-December/000339.html</a> Anyway, I think Qutb that to reject conspiracy as a category is a mistake. I think most people are missing the real conspiracy here, because I simply cannot think that the WWP prominence in the anti-war movement is some accident. Not with Ramsey at the helm. I just can't imagine how a CIA agent working with avowed Maoists who are allies of Shining Path could also be some kind of accident of history. There's too much of this. Hope you are still reading. And if you leave the board, I hope you find someplace in this knot to keep untangling.

by **Ike Broflovski** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:07 pm

I find it relieving to leave the conspiracist outlook behind for good. Haven't you been leaving it behind for good for like 2 years now? Melodramatic rants about "conspiracists" and invitations to ban you accomplish nothing. I agree that 9/11 "truth" is to some extent less important than understanding US foreign policy now....but understanding US foreign policy now is hard. Are we preparing to invade Iran? Collaborating with Iran? Both? I can't tell. What should we do? Demonstrate against a war that may never happen? Have an all-purpose "Stop bullshitting us" rally? As has been pointed out many times, there are many well-established facts about 9/11 and its aftermath that put the lie to the whole "turrrists attacked us and we struck back for freedom" narrative. This has nothing to do with CD, missiles, remote control, or what-have-you. If more people were more aware of more of the story, it would be more difficult to use this crap to whip up public support for imperial wars. I fail to see how that would be a bad thing.

by **Project Willow** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:33 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>But their presence in the absence of anything else spelled just how far we've fallen. The peace movement, nowhere. The justice movement, nowhere. Any tendency toward a humanistic, liberated future, nowhere. .... Here was the ultimate failure of politics... <hr></blockquote> That's the tell all line in the article. The most uncomfortable and apparently unacceptable truth that "conspiracy theories" point to is that the old politics is dead. It's no longer about the what but the how in confronting such a power structure, and there's too much grief in that realization for these leftists to embrace it. We have seen time and again the corruption and failure of our basic institutions. The old avenues of affecting change are dead. None of these people wants to acknowledge the reality that discussions of foreign policy mean nothing in our current context, it's only hot air. There is no means to affect foreign policy. 911 truth and related conspiracy theories show us we have moved from an impaired democracy into proto fascism and top-down control. Accept what they tell us about our government and suddenly activism may not just mean ostracism and potential jail time, but in the not too distant future real or perhaps permanent physical harm. It is this realization and its attending feelings of grief, powerlessness, and fear that are behind the continued bashing of the 911 truth.

by **sunny** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:18 pm

Pardon me, Project Willow, while I shamelessly quote you: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The old avenues of affecting change are dead. None of these people wants to acknowledge the reality that discussions of foreign policy mean nothing in our current context, it's only hot air. There is no means to affect foreign policy. 911 truth and related conspiracy theories show us we have moved from an impaired democracy into proto fascism and top-down control.<hr></blockquote> Essentially what my son and I were discussing today. That there is nothing, not protests, voting, media, or anything else citizens can use to change the course of events in this country. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Accept what they tell us about our government and suddenly activism may not just mean ostracism and potential jail time, but in the not too distant future real or perhaps permanent physical harm. It is this realization and its attending feelings of grief, powerlessness, and fear that are behind the continued bashing of the 911 truth.<hr></blockquote> Yes, most so-called leftists who have a voice in this country are really what I like to call "feel-good" liberals, who try to put the best, most optimistic spin on every situation. They even go so far as to intone that while Bush is misguided on policy, he's really a good guy, blah blah blah. Bill Clinton is the worst offender in this category. It's over and done, Babies, stick a fork in us. I found the following comment at Cannonfire today: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The devil was here... right here... you can still smell the sulfur... The pogroms are coming. Fox today told its viewers that if you buy Citgo gas you are sending money to Al Qaida. The rhetoric has been ramped up beyond belief, and Karl Rove is promising an October surprise. "Real" people will be the first targets, keep yourselves safe if you can. Welcome to the Penal Colony... # posted by Anonymous : 12:22 PM <hr></blockquote>

by **Seventhsonjr** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:25 pm

Dear Jeff et al - I think that what was truly troubling about that article was the fact that it cuts so close to some truths or maybe just themes that are so disturbingly uncomfortable. For everyone's information, I have been in deep refelction and going through some horrifying and profound and ethereal life changes - a shift in my paradigms if you will - mostly of an interpersonal nature. Despondency and depression have been the hallmark and deep chinese medicine, shamanism, buddhism and even the initiation philosophies (from Egypt to Greece, and Jerusalem to Mecca) have been the road out of the depths more or less. I am nowehere near fully recovered from some serious recent personal losses or possible losses (my life partner and I are separating for good or maybe not for good - who knows - and our beautiful kids and home and pets and job and hope and future are all tossed into the whirlwind of the future to come with no way of knowing whether I will even survive it all - or them either). The reason for mentioning all of this (in part probably cause I cannot afford a therapist and my work has gone mostly to sh*t as I am consumed with grief and desperation) is MOSTLY to tell you that all of this grief and facing the devil nightly has brought me to some new and pretty profound understandings and a no bullshit attitude (not that I didn't really have a no bullshit attitude before but my understanding was not so profound). I have been almost breathless and felt as though I was kicked in the stomach so I read the blog and soome posts but have been mostly unable to muster a voice or cry other than to weep at hom. SO_ QUTB - Seems to me you have been leaving this board for years and coming and going. Dramatics aside, what is the point. To be derogatory towards Jeff? To taunt him? To ridicule him? To join the neoright's assault on reason? Are we to fall for the tarbaby trick and cries of "go ahead and hit me" or "please don't hit me" to make us get stuck in the mire of false logic? Hell - I am deep into the Reichstagian logic of 9-11 and am convinced it was remote controlled planes (as reported to be a neonazi/islamofascist set up with the Bushes by the suicided James Hatfield in July 2001 - he was dead two weeks later) It is the most rational explanation for that day and that attack. We ALL KNOW IT WAS A CONSPIRACY BUT "QUI BONO"? Who benefitted? The right wing, Halliburton, Bush Rummy Cheney et al and the new american Fourth Reich (same as the old reich). Qutb - if ya wanta flee from thinkin' on it or even tolerating hearing about it then don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Bye. Or stay. i enjoy a hot debate and you give pretty good - even though I think it is just a meanspirited distraction in this instance. Back to the damn article: I see it as blackops propaganda: poor us - poor us liberal whiners with no organizers and no plan and only a pity party circle jerk on the internet to keep us from lemmingating ourselves. But it IS damn annoying that this is what we are so easily seen as and perceived as: it has some ringing of truth, some whiff of sulphur AND the stuff of valid self-criticism (which makes it so effective as propaganda). But when you combine that with the attack on the 9-11 truth movement etc from counterpunch and, while I agree that the details of some 9-11 BIG QUESTIONS are a major distraction and another set of tar babies, the whole host of glaring pieces of evidence that 9-11 was an inside corrupt intel/military political strike by the BushCheney Nazi legions of death (and after all they did finance Hitler through the whole damn war and the Nazis afterwards to escape with the gold ripped from the mouths of innocents) it is something which DEMANDS that Jeff cry BULLSHIT. The article - and Qutb's unconvincing response to this thread - is a massively offensive blackops type smear on US. On many Americans. On the soldiers in Iraq who see the truth and the bullshit and on all those in the world trying to hold back or thwart or somehow avoid the global holocaust pouring forth from this Fourth Reich. It is s mear to the victims of these wars and to those who seem to be getting killed for nothing but greed, avarice and power (not to mention the efforts for Bush et al to avoid genocide and crimes against humanity charges and treason). As for the socalled Israel link: let me be clear - it pisses me off to hear this shit said in such broad strokes. Israel, Zionism, Jews, even the Mossad are NOT monolithic spectres. Among them are certainly the same sort of Judenrat and the capos and zionist leaders who collaborated with the Nazis in the deaths of their own people during the Shoah (in my opinion and the documentation of this really requires going no further than Jewish historian/philosopher Hannah Arendt). But mainly this whole Fourth Reich, just like its corporofascist predecessor in Germany, is run by an Anglo-American-Aryan-Nordic cabal of WASPs. I come from this background and know whereof I speak. It is some nasty sh*t. And they have collaborators from the Saudi islamofascists to Mossad to Likud to the CIA to ISI to every vessel and vein of our society. ANY asshole can be a greedy fascist monster. But the ones who are best at it are the ones who have been at it the longest with the best resources: i.e. the alliances of WASPs in the US and Europe and on Wall Street (and now collaborating with fasicsts from Beijing to Islamabad etc) I have been out of the loop and trying to get my legs back but will post nmore on this as time goes by. As a researcher it has been my main focus. How in the fuck did this shit fucking HAPPEN in America??? How am I doing so far? Love and peace seventhson

by **Rigorous Intuition** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:38 pm

"How am I doing so far?" You're doing just fine, Seventhson. And amen as always to your calling out the Nazis. Peace to you through your hard times.

by **El Tedo** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:54 pm

I think the sentiment of that article aptly conveys the sour grapes of the so-called "Peace Movement". The die-hard (and completely inconsequential), D.U., NDP lefties look at the rapid grassroots success of the "911 Truth Movement" with envy, thus the obnoxious 'You're forgetting the peace movement' whining. The time for the so-called "peace movement" is over and done with. I marched against the war in Iraq and look at how much good that did. The only way to get the war mongers out of power is to get the dirt on them-- impeachable, criminal dirt. There's plenty of it out there.

by **chiggerbit** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:38 pm

Having attended Quaker (Friends) Sunday School as a child, I willingly count myself in the maligned peace movement, even though ages before the Iraqi war peace movement, El Tedo. One thing I have learned is to have patience. Our country has become a society of instant gratification. That is the way of failure. Have trust: patience, information, time, perseverance on the true moral path is the way forward, step by step by step. Sometimes a step back for every two steps forward, but always forward over the long run. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chiggerbit@rigorousintuition>chiggerbit</A> at: 9/23/06 9:45 pm

by **yesferatu** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:42 pm

Thank you, sunny, for emphasizing the most salient points which project willow gave. Also, something you said... <<Essentially what my son and I were discussing today. That there is nothing, not protests, voting, media, or anything else citizens can use to change the course of events in this country.>> ...made me think of something bouncing around in my head. It seems there is this notion that the shit will hit the fan regarding the comeuppance of the criminals in control. The phrase "shit will hit the fan" kind of got me to thinking. For the phrase to mean anything, the fan has to have a motor spinning it's blades in order to radially disperse the shit for proper reactions and to see where and who it hits. And I have thought this: the fan has been stripped of it's motor. It is dead. Go ahead, throw the shit at the fan. The shit will eventually bury the fan and no one will ever know there ever was once a fan, or what it was capable of. And so to agree with you and project willow, with my humble metaphor, that is where we are. The fan is inoperable. To comment on the rest of this thread, I feel there is a glaring problem with the whole argument of the article: that groups and/or individuals can't walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. I got the feeling I was being played in the way it was presented as well: "You should be ashamed for not having a MLK-type as your leader! This is proof you are mere children playing in a sandbox off in a corner while the grave matter of liberation and transformation is going to be left up to others...so go on and play in your sandbox." Sounds like a psy-op. Appealing to the leeeberul hankerin' for justice to get some good ol' bleeding heart guilt going, and thus move a sector of such folks out of the arena of pressing for investigation, and taking the head off the building steam. Looks like it is working. I know. I sound like I am contradicting my futility "IT'S OVER" mode of thinking above in the first half of this post, by suggesting that the pressure of making facts known should continue. Call it contradictory, or a paradox, it is merely walking and chewing bubble gum at the same time. I have confidence in my ability to do that. Too bad some feel multi-tasking is such a difficult endeavor, and so attack one task and embrace another, as if the tasks are mutually exclusive of one another. How foolish. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=yesferatu@rigorousintuition>yesferatu</A> at: 9/23/06 11:19 pm

by **Et in Arcadia ego** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:05 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The reason for mentioning all of this (in part probably cause I cannot afford a therapist and my work has gone mostly to sh*t as I am consumed with grief and desperation) is MOSTLY to tell you that all of this grief and facing the devil nightly has brought me to some new and pretty profound understandings and a no bullshit attitude (not that I didn't really have a no bullshit attitude before but my understanding was not so profound).<hr></blockquote> Rough times here, no doubt. I'm seperated from my wife and kid 4 days out of the week by more then 250 miles and it makes me crazy. Lots to ponder in the Dark when you're alone; if you ever need to talk, PM me; and don't worry, I'm far more unstable than you are(ask Jeff), so you'll get to play the reasonable one and still feel crappy. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> As far as Qutb goes.. Once in, there's no out. These things stood on the skin of my eyes for decades like shadows of microscopic objects floating past my retinae till places like RI brought them into focus and a withering refusal to look away on the group's part. The individuals, however, frequently need rest, so take yours. You'll need it for later. ____________________ Some are born to sweet delight, some are born to endless night.Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=etinarcadiaego@rigorousintuition>et in Arcadia ego</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://www.sickle666.com/images/Arcadia.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 9/23/06 10:06 pm

by **dugoboy** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:29 am

sorry for your troubles Seventhson. i completely understand. in the last few weeks, i havn't told anyone here about this until now but, i have begun to have panic attacks and bad headaches because of this stuff but other things as well. i went to the doctor and i have been trying to get the situation under control but i hadn't been giving myself what i needed and had pretty much drove myself to complete burnout. so i just had to learn to do things at a more normal human level. but for a week or so here i thought i was out of control but i began to realize it was all in my head, the anxiety i was feeling i mean to say. i'll just leave it at this: the mind is a powerful thing. i had entrapped myself in worry and i had to do something positive with all this fear if i wanted a way out. its still scary..but i have to try.. ___________________________________________ "BushCo aren't incompetent...they are Complicit!" -Me "Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act" -George Orwell "When I despair, I remember that all through history the ways of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it - always." -Mahatma GandhiEdited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=dugoboy@rigorousintuition>dugoboy</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://www.geocities.com/orcthrasher/files/images/Qn38113.gif" BORDER=0> at: 9/23/06 10:35 pm

by **Seventhsonjr** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:43 am

Yeah - I have been experiencing the hardest dark nights of the soul just about ever. I have found that st john's wort at night with hops (the flowers not ina brewsky), passion flower and chamomile help as does red panax ginseng, astragalus (amazing help), Roiibus (Redbush/honeybush. Eleuthro and even a small dose of occasional yohimbe seems to help me persevere during the day. And some cafe bustelo with cardamom. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> As i mentioned in the NYC radiation thread, I and my family were damaged by our proximity (and swimming in waters near) a nuke plant. This harm to us as "downwinders" has made us all fucked up hormonally and has added to the stress of life and relationship. We have a formal diagnosis from an MD who says the harm was from high levels of radiation exposure. I have been reticent to discuss this much online as it causes me, as an antinuke activist, to probably increase the odds that I will be singled out for whatever by bozos who do not understand that to oppose things that are killing us is not terrorism or a threat of such but is actually patriotic and our moral duty. As a total pacifist almost, I do not believe in preemptive action - or, for that matter, violence in any form (though I support passive resistance and satyagraha and protests and action) except where force is required for self defense. But the powers that be who control the commercial nuke and nuke weapons industries (and Halliburton is one of them) are IMHO the same bastards who backed Hitler and the extermination camps where their political and social opposition was exterminated for profit and power and who reduced the populations of Europe by ethnically and politically "cleansing" it during the Shoah and afterwards. These IMHO are the same bastards who "did" 9-11 to further consolidate their power and put off their ever being called to task in the international court of justice for crimes against humanity and genocide or war crimes - or in the US for treason. Why in the hell would they be reluctant to kill thousands on 9-11 if they are already killing MILLIONS with their global nuke industries commercially and militarily? To Qutb: I may have implied or even explicitly said earlier in this thread that your post was part of blackops propaganda. i did not mean that at all. I did mean that your position strengthens such propaganda though.

by **sullymandias** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:34 am

Q-TUB -- fuckin awsom! keep it up brutha! -s "use emoticons"

Terrific article

Re: The best definition of "Truth"....

Re: Incoherent article...or worse.

Re: Incoherent article...or worse.

Leaving it behind....and leaving....and leaving...

Re: Leaving it behind....and leaving....and leaving...

Re: Leaving it behind....and leaving....and leaving...

Hey all. HOW The F*** is everybody????

Re: Hey all. HOW The F*** is everybody????

The "Peace" Movement

Re: The "Peace" Movement

Re: Leaving it behind....and leaving....and leaving...

Re: Leaving it behind....and leaving....and leaving...

Re: Leaving it behind....and leaving....and leaving...

Thanks Et and Jeff for the kind words

Re: Thanks Et and Jeff for the kind words

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