The Idiocy Behind the '9/11 Truth' Movement

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Re: THE BURDEN OF PROOF

Postby nomo » Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:27 pm

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>it still doesn't explain why you persist in shooting down truth seekers rather than seeking more truth.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Because I believe that people who put out theories about pods and holograms and thermate and missiles are NOT truth seekers. They may have the best of intentions, but they're muddying the waters with ridiculous conjecture, and they make the rest of us look like fools by association.<br><br>And sadly, the so-called 9/11 Truth Movement seems infested with these nutjobs. And as Matt Taibbi points out, their extreme right wing pedigree is another thing worth noting. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: yes, in fact

Postby pugzleyca3 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:30 pm

Nomo, you have to wade through a whole lot of bees to get to the honey and the way I see it, the "truth movement" has had to do just that. I believe this whole event has been a learning experience. If no one questioned any of the other events how could we ever possibly get to this point:<br><br>"Focussing on who did what, who paid for what, who benefitted is a helluva lot more useful than debating the size of the hole in the Pentagon."<br><br>My position is that we have moved past most of the nitpicking and round robin stuff and people are aware of what you quoted above. The writer of this article is the one spinning their wheels. We're already there. <br><br>One of the main things that caused me to dig deeper into 9/11 was the "who benefitted?" question. Without that, I probably would have continued to believe the official story. Who benefitted has been around since day one of the truth movement, otherwise, as far as I am concerned, there never would have been one. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: THE BURDEN OF PROOF

Postby Seamus OBlimey » Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:39 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>the "official story" at least as far as the mechanics are concerned, seems quite plausible to me.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>their extreme right wing pedigree is another thing worth noting.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :rollin --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>goodbye <p></p><i></i>
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asdf

Postby sln70 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:51 pm

I agree with pugzley's rebuttal to your last post, nomo.<br><br>pod people, etcetera are .. well they are what they are. I'm never threatened by theories that run along side of mine - I cannot stand it when people claim that other people's ideas make their own 'look bad.'<br><br>When I hear those words, I always wonder how weak their argument must be in the first place.<br><br>The truth is the truth, it stands on its own merits and will not be discredited by wacky theories. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: asdf

Postby pugzleyca3 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:07 pm

Something just occured to me. In opining about what they consider to be whacky theories, these writers only bring more attention to that which they don't want people to pay attention.<br><br>Like crisis management in big corporations, they always have to decide whether or not to acknowledge certain rumors (or truths), they know that rebuttal sometimes adds steam to the very issue they want squelched. <br> <p></p><i></i>
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who benefitted, and who has the power to cover it up

Postby wordspeak » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:26 pm

Nomo, mr. grown-up, sir- you're now changing your tone.<br>I agree, too, that <br>"Focusing on who did what, who paid for what, who benefitted is a helluva lot more useful than debating the size of the hole in the Pentagon."<br>But that's not what the Rolling Stone writer says. He says, paraphrased: "I'm ignoring all specific criminal-style evidence for now and focusing on the general implausibility of it being an inside job."<br>It's a joke to think 9/11 was an inside job, he says.<br><br>It's ironic, because all the circumstantial evidence- "physical" evidence aside, points to 9/11 being an inside job. You can say, "Oh, we'll never really know," but of course you can know. That "postmodernist" attitude has a crippling effect. We know who killed JFK. It's the "you can't really know" meme that's most harmful to actually understanding the worlds and changing it.<br><br>Matt Taibbi wants a story, OK. I agree with everything sin70 wrote, but it's not just PNAC, which gets far too much attention. There's a long history of psychological operations coming from an entrenched power elite that's transnational in nature but effectively hires out the CIA. It doesn't take much research to understand that the same handful of people operating through a handful of financial networks started all of the most powerful transnational organizations in the world- from the World Bank and IMF to the CFR and Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg Group, and U.N.- and these "globalists" have always had ties to the CIA. It's a far-right fascist cabal, and it was behind the assassination of JFK. Obviously, Bush Sr. is very much part of it. It's not Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfield sitting down making the plans for 9/11. It's a massive, highly-practiced black-ops operation funded by American tax money plus illegal drugs sales. You might remember BCCI and Iran-Contra, too, for some reference.<br>This is like intro-to-the-real-world, nomo. Am I talking down to you, to take a tactic from smug people like Matt Taibbi?<br>In the perpetual battle between fascism and people rising up and taking power (whatever you choose to call that; it's happening a lot around Latin America right now), psychology is the most important tool. 9/11 changed the entire global psyche, especially the American psyche, and opened the door not just for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, but for the rise of a domestic police state. It created a "permanent war." Who benefits from a permanent war? You tell me, nomo. <br>Matt Taibbi thinks he hits a home run by pointing out that the war-makers didn't need a 9/11 to invade Iraq the first time, or to invade Kosovo, etc. But "9/11" was much more than an excuse to invade some countries; it was about a dramatic shift towards living in fear of an outside threat; that was its result. Trust your leaders. There is an very treacherous enemy. We will take care of you. Never mind that we fund and arm this enemy, and that its soldiers were trained at our CIA-connected flight schools in Florida. Trust us, and you will be safe. <br>Everything about 9/11 represented a classic psychological operation.<br><br>Wikipedia on "psychological operations":<br>Psychological Operations (PSYOP[US] or PSYOPS[UK, GE, NATO]) are planned operations to convey selected information and indicators to specific foreign and (in certain countries) domestic audiences to influence their emotions, motives, objective reasoning, and ultimately the behavior of governments, organizations, groups, and individuals. Sometimes combined with black operations or false flag tactics, the purpose of psychological operations is to induce or reinforce attitudes and behaviors favorable to the originator's objectives....<br>This concept has been used by military institutions throughout history, but it is only since the twentieth century that it has been accorded the organizational and professional status it enjoys now.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: yes, in fact

Postby Rigorous Intuition » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:33 pm

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>My issue (and Taibbi's as well) is the emphasis that is being put on bombs and missiles when in reality, the "official story" at least as far as the mechanics are concerned, seems quite plausible to me.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>I think Taibbi's issue also entails the discrediting of all inquiry by having the least sound arguments stand for the whole. I don't see him interested in asking "who did what, who paid for what, and who benefitted."<br><br>Fixation upon CD has meant the death of an <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>effectual</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> 9/11 movement. Sure, it's bigger than ever, but it's more of a chaperoned lifestyle choice than a vector of justice. And without justice, what's the point? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: The Idiocy Behind the '9/11 Truth' Movement

Postby isachar » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:56 pm

nomo, the articles you posted and your 'entirely possible' argument are nothing more than cherry-picked strawman arguments.<br><br>Here's a couple of facts:<br><br>1) No airplane/building crash scenario can account for temperatures sufficient to melt structural steel as was found in the WTC's.<br><br>2) If you read her extensive letters and various interview and articles, Sibel Edmonds - the FBI translator against whom the Bush admin has obtained a gag order to prevent her from presenting evidence/testimony - has already given us means, motive, opportunity and perpetrators behind the 911 attacks.<br><br>3) Two of the hijackers - who were actively being sought before 911 - were given lodging in the LA area with an active FBI informant.<br><br>4) Higher ups at the FBI deliberately suppressed all active investigations by field agents who had identified a number of the hijackers prior to 911.<br><br>5) Mineta's testimony to the 911 Whitewash Commission clearly indicates Cheney ordered Flight 77 to NOT be shot down (otherwise it would have been shot down, or at the minimum fired upon).<br><br>Of course the multiple war games that provided the cover for the attacks on 911 are entirely ignored. As is the fact that not one of the pilots of the four airliners involved bothered to follow standard active hijacking protocols by taking 2-4 seconds to enter a (four?) digit universally recognized active hijacking code while their planes, crew, passengers and finally, their cockpits and own selves were being assaulted, and prior to the transponders being turned off.<br><br>There's soooo much more, but you and the pissant author who's intellectual garbage and verbal vomit you've credulously posted clearly have another agenda so I won't bother to pursue this with you any further in this forum. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=isachar>isachar</A> at: 10/25/06 4:33 pm<br></i>
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the story

Postby sln70 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:15 pm

I think the same way, wordspeak. I too believe that the Senior Bush is an ENORMOUS player - read somewhere (maybe here?) that it can be argued that he controlled more of the world than anyone in recent history what with his "friends" in other governments.. and his own.<br><br>I take it for granted at this point that the CIA is a tool of the elite and has no allegiance but to them. <p></p><i></i>
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i think CREATIONISM is utter BULLSHIT

Postby nashvillebrook » Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:48 pm

in order to argue this point do i need to formulate MY OWN THEORY of the emergence of life?<br><br>that's what nomo would have us believe. we can't critque arguments that are showing holes UNTIL and UNLESS we have a complete ALTERNATIVE CONSTRUCTION. <br><br>discuss. <p></p><i></i>
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Nomo's Antithought

Postby Bismillah » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:01 pm

nomo:<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"Oh really? Got any cites for that? I mean, credible cites, not some theology professor waxing euphorically about structural engineering and explosives."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>See Jeff Wells' "Coincidence Theorists' Guide to 9/11", on this very website.<br><br>And stop wasting everyone's time with your hit-and-run exercises in smug antithought. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: i think CREATIONISM is utter BULLSHIT

Postby pugzleyca3 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:04 pm

I find it interesting that mainstream news only covers 9/11 truth in the context of the holes in the 9/11 truth theories. But, the problem with that is, I never seem them actually point out the holes other than to lump everyone in with what sounds (to someone who has done no research on the subject and this is who they want to reach) the whackiest.<br><br>I am not saying anyone's theory is whackier than the other, because I don't think it matters exactly what you believe when it comes to the minute details, what matters is that people know there is something wrong with the GOVERNMENT'S theory and that is what needs to be addressed and the holes in it.<br><br>It is not up to the public to explain what went on that day, it's THEIR job. <br><br>Why isn't the focus ever on what it is supposed to be and that is the IMMENSE GAPING HOLES in the White House's account of what happened on 9/11? (in the news)<br><br>God, this pisses me off. <p></p><i></i>
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*no critique without offering new theory*

Postby nashvillebrook » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:24 pm

what the hell kind of rhetorical fallacy is this? there has to be a fancy latin phrase... reducto ad alternum? <p></p><i></i>
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why doesn't the media cover the story?!?

Postby wordspeak » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:25 pm

Uh, that would be because the mainstream media at the highest levels is very controlled by the CIA and CFR. The film "9/11: Press For Truth" does a good job cover this angle, IMO.<br>The fact is, though, a lot of important little pieces of the story of what really happened on 9/11- that could be sorted through and made sense of if a real investigation ever were to formally take place- have been broken by reporters of "mainstream" news outlets throughout the world, as Paul Thompson has shown by compiling them on his valuable timeline, www.cooperativeresearch.org. Very few reporters, though, have "connected the dots" and challenged the official story of 9/11 in any significant way, with a few exceptions, such as James Ridgeway of the Village Voice and Gail Sheehy of the New York Observer.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: why doesn't the media cover the story?!?

Postby pugzleyca3 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:46 pm

Hi Wordspeak, you're absolutely correct and I know it. I was just blowing off steam I guess. Without it, the top of my head might pop off and roll across the room when thinking of all the bs about 9/11 and the lapdog media. <p></p><i></i>
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