The Latest on Melted Steel

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The Latest on Melted Steel

Postby JD » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:56 pm

Now isn't this a hoot. An old article from 2002. They are trying to explain WTF the towers collapsed. Anomolous Sulpher due to....... "acid rain". Uh huh. Like it was ever raining INSIDE the WTC buildings. Ever heard of roofs? Has anyone heard about publication of their findings and promised followups? Anyways here it is for the laughs:<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/steel.html" target="top">www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/steel.html</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>The "Deep Mystery" of Melted Steel<br><br>There is no indication that any of the fires in the World Trade Center buildings were hot enough to melt the steel framework. Jonathan Barnett, professor of fire protection engineering, has repeatedly reminded the public that steel--which has a melting point of 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit--may weaken and bend, but does not melt during an ordinary office fire. Yet metallurgical studies on WTC steel brought back to WPI reveal that a novel phenomenon--called a eutectic reaction--occurred at the surface, causing intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese.<br><br>Materials science professors Ronald R. Biederman and Richard D. Sisson Jr. confirmed the presence of eutectic formations by examining steel samples under optical and scanning electron microscopes. A preliminary report was published in JOM, the journal of the Minerals, Metals & Materials Society. A more detailed analysis comprises Appendix C of the FEMA report. The New York Times called these findings "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation." The significance of the work on a sample from Building 7 and a structural column from one of the twin towers becomes apparent only when one sees these heavy chunks of damaged metal. <br><br>A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes--some larger than a silver dollar--let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes.<br><br>A eutectic compound is a mixture of two or more substances that melts at the lowest temperature of any mixture of its components. Blacksmiths took advantage of this property by welding over fires of sulfur-rich charcoal, which lowers the melting point of iron. In the World Trade Center fire, the presence of oxygen, sulfur and heat caused iron oxide and iron sulfide to form at the surface of structural steel members. This liquid slag corroded through intergranular channels into the body of the metal, causing severe erosion and a loss of structural integrity.<br><br>"The important questions," says Biederman, "are how much sulfur do you need, and where did it come from? The answer could be as simple--and this is scary- as acid rain."<br><br>Have environmental pollutants increased the potential for eutectic reactions? "We may have just the inherent conditions in the atmosphere so that a lot of water on a burning building will form sulfuric acid, hydrogen sulfide or hydroxides, and start the eutectic process as the steel heats up," Biederman says. He notes that the sulfur could also have come from contents of the burning buildings, such as rubber or plastics. Another possible culprit is ocean salts, such as sodium sulfate, which is known to catalyze sulfidation reactions on turbine blades of jet engines. "All of these things have to be explored," he says.<br><br>From a building-safety point of view, the critical question is: Did the eutectic mixture form before the buildings collapsed, or later, as the remains smoldered on the ground. "We have no idea," admits Sisson. "To answer that, we would need to recreate those fires in the FPE labs, and burn fresh steel of known composition for the right time period, with the right environment." He hopes to have the opportunity to collaborate on thermodynamically controlled studies, and to observe the effects of adding sulfur, copper and other elements. The most important lesson, Sisson and Biederman stress, is that fail-safe sprinkler systems are essential to prevent steel from reaching even 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit, because phase changes at the 1,300-degree mark compromise a structure's load-bearing capacity.<br><br>The FEMA report calls for further metallurgic investigations, and Barnett, Biederman and Sisson hope that WPI will obtain NIST funding and access to more samples. They are continuing their microscopic studies on the samples prepared by graduate student Jeremy Bernier and Marco Fontecchio, the 2001–02 Helen E. Stoddard Materials Science and Engineering Fellow. (Next year's Stoddard Fellow, Erin Sullivan, will take up this work as part of her graduate studies.) Publication of their results may clear up some mysteries that have confounded the scientific community.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: fire-wise professors

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:37 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Oh, this must be a description of the NIST report itself. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: The Latest on melted steel

Postby erosoplier » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:14 am

Quote:<br>________________________________________________<br>A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes--some larger than a silver dollar--let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes.<br>________________________________________________<br><br>Can everyone say "neutron bombardment"? (Emoticons fail me, but it's just something that caught my eye, and it felt sensible to point it out). <p></p><i></i>
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More on Steel

Postby JD » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:17 pm

This is actually pretty interesting.<br><br>Go to the original link to see the photos.<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Biederman/Biederman-0112.html" target="top">www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Biederman/Biederman-0112.html</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>A section of an A36 wide flange beam retrieved from the collapsed World Trade Center Building 7 was examined to determine changes in the steel microstructure as a result of the terrorist attack on September 11, 2001. This building was not one of the original buildings attacked but it indirectly suffered severe damage and eventually collapsed. While the exact location of this beam could not be determined, the unexpected erosion of the steel found in this beam warranted a study of microstructural changes that occurred in this steel. Examination of other sections in this beam is underway. <br><br>ANALYSIS<br><br>Rapid deterioration of the steel was a result of heating with oxidation in combination with intergranular melting due to the presence of sulfur. The formation of the eutectic mixture of iron oxide and iron sulfide lowers the temperature at which liquid can form in this steel. This strongly suggests that the temperatures in this region of the steel beam approached ~1,000ºC, forming the eutectic liquid by a process similar to making a “blacksmith’s weld” in a hand forge.<br><br>$$$$$$$$$$$$$<br><br>I looked for more publications and found these. The first one isn't on line.<br><br>R.R. Biederman, Erin Sullivan and R. D. Sisson, Jr., George F. Vander Voort, "Microstructural Analysis of the Steels from Buildings 7, 1 and 2 from the World Trade Center", International Metallographic Society Meeting, published in Microstructural Science, San Antonio, TX, August 3-7, 2003<br><br>The second one is though:<br><br>J.R. Barnett, R.R. Biederman, R.D. Sisson, Jr., FEMA Report: World Trade Center Building Performance Study: Data Collection, Preliminary Observations and Recommendations - Appendix C: Limited Metallurgical Examination, April 2002<br><br>See it here: <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_apc.pdf#search=%22%22Appendix%20C%3A%20Limited%20Metallurgical%20Examination%22%22" target="top">www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_apc.pdf#search=%22%22Appendix%20C%3A%20Limited%20Metallurgical%20Examination%22%22</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>It's a quick read. Check out how eroded and corroded the steel is. Wow. This is very weird. I've seen lots of steel in my day but nothing like this. <br><br>The FEMA "Suggestions for Future Research"<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The severe corrosion and subsequent erosion of Samples 1 and 2 are a <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline">very unusual event</span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END-->. <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline">No clear explanation for the source of the sulfer has been identified</span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END-->.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It is also POSSIBLE THAT THE PHENOMENON STARTED PRIOR TO COLLAPSE AND ACCELERATED THE WEAKENING OF THE STEEL STRUCTURE. (my capitals)<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>This is from the FEMA report everyone. They have no explanation for what they admit to be bizarre steel samples, and that it is possible the alteration of the steel may have happened PRIOR to the collapse of the structure. (like 2 seconds before one wonders he he)<br><br>I'd completely missed this; haven't been following the arguments on physical matters at all.<br><br>Sadly I'm not a metalurgist and struggle to remember much about austenitic steel etc. so can't offer much more opinion than what is obvious visual inspection that a layman would also make.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: More on Steel

Postby isachar » Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:23 pm

This acid rain angle is likely a cover story - intended, or otherwise.<br><br>Think about it. Kevin Ryan at Underwriters has already documented that the steel used in the WTC's 1 and 2 was rigorously tested, evaluated and certified. I don't know if WTC 7's steel was required to meet the same rigorous standards as its construction was far more conventional (though it did envelop an existing Con Ed station).<br><br>So, if acid rain can attack structural steel used in a rather conventional frame office building (WTC 7), then why haven't other such structures that have experienced fires in NYC or other areas subject ot acid rain melted as well?<br><br>The only physical evidence necessary to prove that means other than an airplane were used to bring down the WTC's is the presence of the melted steel of which the above mentioned beam, along with the 'meteorite' of melted steel being held at a hangar at Kennedy airport should be the primary exhibits in mass murder/war crimes indictments against much of the Bush admin and their accomplices in Congress.<br><br>Those 'researching' this subject fall back to acid rain to explain the effect they are observing because they buy into the phony cover story and do not consider other more likely causes that would produce the exact same effect - like, say thermate. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: More on Steel

Postby anotherdrew » Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:01 am

it's the quantity of molten steel that bothers me most, I just watched the 18min 70's construction video, those buildings were so strongly built, such vast quantities of steel should absorb vastly more heat than the jet fuel/office furnature should have been able to generate. it just doesn't make sense.<br><br>personally I'd prefer to see them rebuilt, nearly identicly "but a bit bigger". but frankly I'm not sure we have the skilled workforce/industry anymore to do it. <p></p><i></i>
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