Who are the most respectable conspiracy theorists?

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Who are the most respectable conspiracy theorists?

Postby FourthBase » Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:17 am

Who are the conspiracy theorists whose resumes of conventional respectability are most likely to impress ordinary people?<br><br>Such as:<br>Professors at prestigious colleges...<br>Ex-government higher-ups...<br>Senior military officers... <p></p><i></i>
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Isn't 'respectable conspiracy theorist'...

Postby banned » Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:40 am

...an oxymoron? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Isn't 'respectable conspiracy theorist'...

Postby FourthBase » Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:46 am

Yes, I guess it is to ordinary-world people.<br>I'm talking to you and everybody else, though.<br>Who are the conspiracy theorists with the most respectable qualifications according to the ordinary world? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Isn't 'respectable conspiracy theorist'...

Postby AnnaLivia » Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:42 am

i got my computer repaired, but they say the motherboard is going bad, so thought i'd put this up while i can. i found this in comments on jeff's main page and thought it was most excellent, and it seems to fit this thread enough, so here ya are:<br><br>(and maybe i've missed this poster, but if he/she is still around, i'd like to thank them for this)<br><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/03/conspiracy-theory-made-easy.html">rigorousintuition.blogspo...-easy.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>stonefruit said...<br> <br>“The pervasive stereotype of the conspiracy theorist is that of a paranoid, hyper-vigilant figure synthesizing an epic quantity of signs and symbols to draw up idiosyncratic arraignments of shadowy forces directing world affairs from behind the scenes. This caricature of a hard-driven eccentric loner, battling the unseen wielding only the weapon of information, has been drawn in a variety of movies, television programs, and books. Paradigmatic examples include Mel Gibson's character in Richard Donner's film Conspiracy Theory, the JFK assassination researcher in Richard Linklater's groundbreaking indie classic Slacker, numerous characters in Pynchon and Delillo novels, and – of course – the Fox Mulder character on the hit series The X - Files. It was The X - Files that first brought this figure into the mainstream, by capitalizing on the broad overlap between conspiracy theory and UFOlogy. Indeed the program's mottoes ("Trust no one" and "The truth is out there") also exemplify the epistemological double-bind of many paranoid conspiracy theorists – or "conspiranoiacs." <br><br>In spite of the tremendous energy exponents of the conventional wisdom put into denigrating conspiranoiac social, political, and historical analysis, such ideas resonate with a large enough portion of the general population to support a substantial cottage industry. Entrepreneurs working in this field include people such people as Art Bell, David Ickes, Alex Jones, Russ Kick, and many others, all typically very savvy in cross-promoting their work through the internet, radio, books, video, and lectures. <br><br>Conspiranoiac leitmotifs are tremendously varied and often contradictory. One good example is the varied attitudes towards a perennial bete noire, the Council on Foreign Relations. While some see it as the high cabal steering America into godless subordination under a world socialist government led by the United Nations, others see it as the high cabal steering America into transnational corporate imperialism. Conspiranoiacs also have a wide variety of attitudes towards their material. Some exercise the detached, self-reflexive irony of The X - Files' Fox Mulder. Some, particularly UFOlogists, push this irony so far into high camp playfulness that a pilgrimage to Roswell, New Mexico or Area 51 in Nevada is more about whimsical affinity group bonding than true discovery. Some organize their lives around their beliefs, exhibiting all of the tedious zealotry of a True Believer. Some exhibit the dispassionate rigor of social scientists. <br><br>Contemporary America is of two minds toward conspiranoia. On one hand, it has become the default popular view, one of commodified skepticism towards history and government. This sentiment has proliferated rapidly since the 1960s and Watergate. With the collapse of the reassuring dualities of the Cold War over the course of the 1990s, it has culminated in a pervasive apocalyptic teleology. <br><br>On the other hand, the disavowal of conspiranoia has also become an integral part of the conventional wisdom itself, a social technology of control that establishes the boundaries of "responsible discourse” by reflecting elite consensus on the fundamental nature of social reality, in accordance with the elite's own class interests. This makes for an incredibly effective means of establishing ruling class hegemony by controlling dissent, foreclosing alternatives, engineering support, and transmuting the interests of the ruling class into that of the nation as a whole. <br><br>One is apt to be labeled a conspiracy theorist for merely suggesting that there is a ruling class that seeks to maintain hegemony, to say nothing of the idea that the ruling class occasionally uses conspiratorial methods. Rather than conspiracy theory, most media and intellectual gatekeepers prefer to view elite behavior through the lens of "somnambulist theory," "coincidence theory," "incompetence theory," or "spontaneity theory." No amount of intellectual gymnastics will be spared to avoid arriving at the conclusion that the rich and powerful, like the rest of us, might possibly act in support of their own perceived best interests. This is, of course, in spite of a voluminous sociological literature on the power elite and “elite deviance,” a danger that laws against conspiracy are presumably designed to protect us from. <br><br>True freedom of mind requires not only the negative absence of constraint but the positive presence of other alternatives. Even though the rich and powerful have repeatedly used conspiracy to get richer and more powerful, to mention this sociological fact immediately draws the most vicious criticism, including charges of superstition, cynicism, paranoia, hysteria, and primitivism. <br><br>Conspiranoia can and should be a tool of empirical explanation - it is possible to point fingers and name names. The powers that be, thousands of people enslaving six billion, act not in conspiracy but in tacit collusion, supporting an agenda of domination fostered by the similarity of their backgrounds, calibrated at key forums and through key organizations. <br><br>Ultimately, however, the appeal of conspiranoia is that of narrative itself: narrative’s ability to explain, predict, motivate, and entertain. Although conspiranoia offers the aficionado an integrated worldview, a weltanschauung, it is also provides more than this. When confronted with the potential evidence of conspiracy, one must ask, as in criminal trials: "Is there motive, means, and opportunity?" All too often there is, especially at the intersection of politics, law, high finance, intelligence, diplomacy, covert military operations, narcotrafficking, organized crime, and the media simulacrasphere – the place where so much of 20th century history has been made, and the juncture the Bush family has been sitting at for the last four generations. <br><br>Life writing can be an effective means of examining this nexus because "like biography, human conspiracy originates in a preconception of the person as historical agent." Instead of the usual characterization of conspiracy theory as an individual psychopathology, conspiranoia can be better thought of as a populist fusion of life writing, historiography, and political science which provides explanatory narratives that void the epistemic warrant of the elite consensus on history, social reality, and the “conventional wisdom." This is a major development in the long tradition of popular resistance to state power and economic oligarchy, not of the right vs. left, but of the bottom vs. the top. <br><br>At its best, conspiranoia is a radical exercise of the skepticism and critical reason at the heart of the Enlightenment project. In this sense it represents a last-ditch effort by the supposed repositories of popular sovereignty – the people - to save liberal humanism and the Enlightenment from their demented doppelgangers – the program of perpetual war for perpetual peace and the enslavement of the autonomous bourgeois subject under regimes of panoptic control managed by technocrats serving the super rich, using all of the awesomely powerful tools made possible by the nation-state system established since the Treaty of Westphalia. <br><br>Conspiranoia narratives could be empirical explanations of social reality, since it can easily be argued that "conspiracy is the normal continuation of normal politics by normal means...and where there is no limit to power, there is no limit to conspiracy." The knee-jerk denigration of such attitudes by the mainstream, however, demonstrates that their disavowal has become a vital social technology of control in the late modern age. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, virtually all pre- and anti-capitalist systems have been colonized by "global monetocracy," a transnational corporate socialism that socializes the costs and privatizes the profits. This is kleptocracy by any other name, albeit a far more sophisticated version than that practiced by hacks like Marcos, Duvalier, Mobutu, and their ilk. <br><br>Although seemingly at its moment of universal triumph, this system may in fact be teetering on the brink of economic, political, and social collapse, which would surely usher in overt police state fascism in all of its core states. It is precisely the dramatically escalating accumulation of these fundamental contradictions within the global capitalist system that coincidence theorists try to deflect public attention away from with their vilification of conspiracy theories. This relentless disparagement continues even though, ala Occam's Razor, they often provide the simplest, most rational explanation. As Marx said in The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte: “Men make their own history, but they do not make it just as they please; they do not make it under circumstances chosen by themselves, but under circumstances directly encountered, given, and transmitted from the past.” <br><br>The power elite deliberately obscure the structural limitations on free will (that they themselves largely created) to mask the sad fact that, as human civilization has evolved from feudalism to democracy, we have traded kings and tsars for presidents and prime ministers but the money power behind the scenes has remained the same. Worse yet, it has allowed only the absolute minimum concessions to the establishment of a sane economic, political, and legal order needed to stave off social revolution. <br><br>This is not enough. The regime of capital accumulation survives by feeding off of the subject body while simultaneously stupefying the subject mind with the myth of individual agency and doing everything in the regime's power to ensure that this agency cannot be used in any meaningful way. In such an environment, denigrating conspiranoia becomes a means of cordoning off from the masses the facts that they are being lied to every day of their lives by authority figures, and that the consumerist hydrocarbon-based industrial civilization they live in is arguably psychopathic and quite possibly in terminal decline. <br><br>While the provisional government of politicians does the lying, they do so in the service of a permanent government above and behind political power, a secular oligarchy working in tacit collusion. In America they are the great commercial dynasties, 500 Fortune companies and their lobbyists, media simulacrasphere, civil and military services, and large research universities, law firms, and charitable foundations. They hire the politicians and establish the boundaries of the politicians' agenda. They authorize the production of regular elections/pageants to protect the brand name of American democracy. They convince a large enough portion of the general population that the system still works, so that the machinery of oppression, theft, enslavement, and murder can continue to operate without friction. <br><br>Camps within this oligarchy make effective use of the Bilderberg Group, World Bank, International Monetary Fund, World Economic Forum at Davos, Bank of International Settlements, World Trade Organization, Council of Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, Bohemian Grove, Group of Eight, Trans-Atlantic Business Council, and other organizations to calibrate their rhetoric, achieve consensus, and even set policy superceding that of sovereign governments. This isn't done in smoky star chambers, however, but in the miasmic group think of those with similar backgrounds, class interests, and institutional positions, all pursuing the interests of the global capitalist system by pursuing misguided senses of their own self interest. <br><br>As the key nations of transnational corporate imperialism degenerate into police states, they slowly strip citizens of their rights, periodically manufacturing “incidents and crises to use as excuses for increased governmental power. Meanwhile, the media toes the government line, lulling the people – or the “sheeple” – to sleep. Eventually, agencies such as the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF), and militarized local police will confiscate all weapons and imprison any citizens who dare oppose authoritarian rule.” <br><br>Although conspiranoiacs exist in great variety, many share a belief in the rough outline of this dystopian nightmare. If true, it is the truth which cannot be spoken. For that reason, the media gatekeepers will continue to dismiss anything that challenges the conventional wisdom as a "conspiracy theory" until some catalyst finally reveals enough of the horrible truth to enough people, facilitating a paradigm shift of world historical importance. <br><br>The ills of society can neither be ameliorated nor even adequately described by means of the law alone. Nevertheless, progressive efforts to ameliorate these ills cannot succeed without committed work in the legal field. However, such work will be necessarily defensive in posture until such time as substantial extraparliamentary pressure is brought to bear on the system by means of “either grassroots citizen participation in credible progressive projects or rebellious acts of desperation that threaten the social order.” With adequate reach into a broad enough segment of the general population by leaking past the media oligarchy, and armed with adequate credibility by weeding itself of the pervasive disinformation that so often taints it, conspiranoiac analysis has the potential to precipitate and consolidate a very significant portion of that extraparliamentary pressure. “Like it or not, the people of the fringe are in an apocalyptical struggle: either the elite techniques of control will be perfected to the level where dissent can be abolished, or heretics will mutate to some level of consciousness where they can do holy and miraculous works to resurrect the old dream of freedom for all.” <br><br>Although this may seem a millennial hope, it may also be a cogent empirical analysis of a decisive historical crossroads. In any event, until consciousness is liberated to such a degree as to enable the establishment of an abiding regime of peace, social justice, and sustainability, as Rousseau said, "Man is born free, yet he is everywhere in chains."<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Who are the most respectable conspiracy theorists?

Postby Rigorous Intuition » Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:17 pm

Peter Dale Scott is near the top of my list. <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Deep Politics and the Death of JFK</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> is one of the most important books I've ever read. <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/">He's</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> a former Canadian diplomat and a professor of English at Berkeley.<br><br>Jacques Vallee has a <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.jacquesvallee.net/">bio</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> that has impressed even those who think UFOs are a joke.<br><br>Gary Sick, author of <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>October Surprise</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->, served on the National Security Council staff under three presidents, and was the principal White House aid for Iran during the hostage crisis.<br><br>John Newman, author of <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Oswald and the CIA</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->, is a professor with 20 years of experience as a military intelligence officer.<br><br>Gaeton Fonzi, author of <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>The Last Investigation</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->, was a senior staff investigator for the House Select Committee on Assassinations.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Thanks Jeff!

Postby FourthBase » Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:43 pm

Those authors are indeed conventionally respectable.<br>Especially Vallee, whew, quite the resume.<br>Class up the ass, we'd say in Southie.<br><br><!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :lol --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br>I was also interested in not just conspiracy theory authors, but conventionally respectable people who expressed a belief in conspiracy theories.<br><br>E.g., Professors, ex-diplomats, etc. who buy into 9/11 being an inside job but have only expressed it on the radio or in a magazine interview, not necessarily in a book of their own research. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Thanks Jeff!

Postby Qutb » Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:14 pm

Peter Dale Scott is writing a book on 9/11 I think. And Daniel Ellsberg (of Pentagon Papers fame, CFR member) has said that since Pakistani secret services appear to have been deeply involved in 9/11, it's logical to assume that the CIA had a pretty good idea of what was going on. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Thanks Jeff!

Postby marykmusic » Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:02 pm

Dragon, who's been down the rabbit hole (especially about UFO's and conspiracy) since 1964, says:<br><br>Vallee is an agent. <br><br>Anyone who served "under three Presidents" is suspect.<br><br>David Icke is one of his most-respected authors. His video with Credo Mutwa is incredible.<br><br>Jim Keith is a must-read. He was taken out.<br><br>Peter Moon, Preston Nichols, the Montauk series and all their books are on our shelves. <br><br>Alex Constantine is informative and intense.<br><br>Jim (not Tex) Marrs has some books worth reading.<br><br>(This is by no means a comprehensive list; some of our books haven't been unpacked.)<br><br>Pretty much the whole UFO group is infiltrated and controlled by the Other Side; UFO Magazine was published by a woman who was busted with the "Mayflower Madame" scene; she was given the "choice" of publishing the magazine or going to prison... People are encouraged to REPORT their sightings and lulled into not DOING anything, except blabbing. The whole Disclosure Project is an op, and unlikely to happen unless it is totally controlled and promotes an agenda.<br><br>We are constantly working to help upset that agenda. Knowing what authors are promoting it is important. --MaryK <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Thanks Mary

Postby FourthBase » Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:24 pm

But I'm looking for bastions of respectability.<br><br>The Montauk stories are not respectable.<br>Peter Moon is a Scientologist, the stories are like comic books.<br>There's also no evidence to support them besides one madman's ramblings.<br>Of course, if there <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>is</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> evidence, I'd be open to it.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Peter Moon, Preston Nichols, the Montauk series and all their books are on our shelves.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I'll look into reading Keith, and I've always liked Constantine and Marrs. <p></p><i></i>
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I prefer the term "conspiracy investigator"...

Postby robertdreed » Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:00 pm

HTML Comments are not allowed <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 11/23/05 11:43 pm<br></i>
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Re: I prefer the term "conspiracy investigator"...

Postby Dreams End » Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:20 pm

rdr, you were playing so nicely till the end. In fact every name I recognized on your list, I agree with. I'd go out and buy books by ALL those authors tomorrow, but I am short of cash and I'm afraid our local public library is a tad limited. <br><br>In general, however, try not to feel too bad that people have their own lines of inquiry which may not match yours. And if you don't understand the political significance of the occult stuff, then you haven't been paying attention.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: I prefer the term "conspiracy investigator"...

Postby FourthBase » Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:23 pm

Thank you RDR! <p></p><i></i>
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Respectability...

Postby rapt » Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:26 pm

4th Base, I don't claim to be fully up-to-snuff on all this stuff, but from what I do know, respectability has some limits here.<br><br>Yes one can be pressed to provide evidence, as I do all the time for those who are in denial. There is an "odd" way of looking at things though, which has some value, maybe a lot of value, in that the traditional methods of seeking the truth may have some fundamental flaws.<br><br>I read your demand for respectability as a requirement that whatever one offers as a premise, it must pass muster according to some established rules of credibility, based on an agreed set of standards. SOME of us question those standards, a scary and dangerous position, since to US, that group defined by SOME, an entirely separate set of standards can be seen (not that we necessarily agree with them) which define the values of an alien culture.<br><br>So far I have been foggy, so lets get down to factual reality. Take Cheney, or you can pick Rumsfeld. Perhaps Sharon is a better example. Any one of these represents a leading spokeman for an ideology, or perhaps just an approach to life, that is altogether alien to our "normal" comfortable position. Torture is not only OK but it is to be policy. No reason - it just is according to these aliens. They like torture, they have the power to do it, so it is done. Is that respectable? No, but it is policy.<br><br>My point is that you may drag up that concept to denigrate "Montauk", but in fact it is only as good as the certifiable facts behind it now. (For awhile it worked as a scam, but no more)<br><br>Respectability is only as good as can be proved any more; so much of it is bullshit. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: I prefer the term "conspiracy investigator"...

Postby robertdreed » Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:31 pm

"rdr, you were playing so nicely till the end."<br><br>DE, I can't afford to jeopardize my candidacy for World Intellectual Wrestling Foundation Villain Of The Year. <br><br>Anyway, I was hoping to raise up a champion from among you lot, by gently prodding you to intensify your research efforts. <br><br>A very incomplete sample of the occult/UFO reading I have under my belt, thus far:<br><br>3 or 4 of the Manson books, including Ed Sander's 1st printing of <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>The Family</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->, and the one that includes the Manson interviews- I think it's called The Manson Papers? Also one written by one of Manson's California prison guards...<br><br>Leslie Van Houten's autobiography<br><br>A book on Jesus de Constanzo, the name escapes me at the moment- an abridged summary may be found at <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/weird/constanzo/1.html">www.crimelibrary.com/seri...nzo/1.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>The Occult Conspiracy, by Michael Howard<br><br>Masters of the Occult, by Daniel Cohen (contains a complete chapter on the Process Church of the Final Judgement. )<br><br>The Occult and the Third Reich<br><br>The Spear of Destiny, by Trevor Ravenscroft<br><br>Holy Blood, Holy Grail and Temple and Lodge, by Baigent, Lincoln, and Leigh<br><br>All of the Robert Anton Wilson material, except for his newest book on conspiracies<br><br>4 or 5 books by Jacques Vallee- including Passport To Magonia, and the trilogy that he did<br><br>Left at East Gate, by Larry Warren<br><br>Above Top Secret, by Timothy Good<br><br>The Day After Roswell, by Philip Corso<br><br>the Geller Papers, edited by Andrija Puharich<br><br>The Ultimate Evil, by Maury Terry<br><br>a couple by Alex Constantine, who has also done some very intriguing political work<br><br>a couple by the late Jim Keith<br><br>a couple by Whitley Steiber- <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Communion</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->, and the immediate follow-up<br><br>one by Eliphas Levi<br><br>a couple by Francis King, including the Aleister Crowley bio<br><br>Israel Regardie's Crowley bio<br><br>A few by Alerister Crowley himself<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>The Control of Candy Jones</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->, by Donald Bain<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>When Rabbit Howls</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> (truly harrowing- I'll tell you from experience, it makes poor summer pastime reading )<br><br>various by Alphonse de Sade<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Bluebeard</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->, a biography of Gille de Rais<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Easy Money</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->, by Donald Goddard<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>The Mothman Prophecies</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->, by John Keel (for some trenchant insight into where Keel is coming from in terms of world view, I recommend the two-part <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>High Times</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> interview featuring him, from the late 1970s-early 1980s)<br><br>2 of Charles Fort's series, which I believe ran to 4 volumes<br><br>etc., etc...<br><br><br><br><br> <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br> <br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 11/23/05 10:17 pm<br></i>
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most respectable

Postby mother » Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:37 pm

The most respectable conspiracy theorist is Saint Pope PiusX and before him Pope LeoXIII. They knew the plans of the secret societies, they saw the writing on the wall and declared the plans of the bad guys "anathema". <p></p><i></i>
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