Sport and War, wow they are so similar...

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Re: Sports as aggression

Postby professorpan » Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:16 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Big Foam Finger-ism.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Nice phrase, Hugh. Made me laugh out loud. <br><br>Also appreciated the football/war comparison article from Graham. And I agree that the intertwining of professional sports and militarism is seriously problematic. <br><br>But there are bright spots. At an Orioles game, Dick Cheney was booed when he threw out the first pitch. Several high-profile athletes have bucked the rampant nationalistic jingoism (some with success, others not so successfully). I don't follow sports that closely, otherwise I could remember their names. <br><br>But I know plenty of good, kind people who also enjoy sports. Like many complex phenomena, sports are a mixed bag, and so are sports fans. I do believe it's important to examine the problems with gung-ho spectacles, but it's only fair to examine the healthy aspects, too, and to avoid broad-brush condemnations of all "sports."<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Sports as aggression

Postby Et in Arcadia ego » Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:39 pm

[] <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=etinarcadiaego@rigorousintuition>et in Arcadia ego</A> at: 6/19/06 11:12 pm<br></i>
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Re: Sports as aggression

Postby bkkexile » Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:14 pm

As much of this board is devoted to the manipulation of history by the powers that be, I'd like to add a side note to Joe's explanation of Aussie Rules, that involves that theme.<br><br>Joe described Aussie Rules as a combination of Gaelic (Irish) Football and an Aboriginal game. However, most Aussie Rules historians that I've come across absolutely refuse to credit Irish Football with having any influence on the game. The rules between these two games are so similar that they are able to have "international's" between the two codes. <br><br>Why are these historian's so stubborn? Jingoism certainly plays a part: in the south east and west of Australia the game of Aussie Rules is almost like a religion and it's adherents are proud of it unique Australian-ness. However, I suspect that the major reason that the history of the game is denied is something else:<br><br>In Australia at the moment, Arab's are society's bad guys, before them there was a strong anti-Asian undercurrent and before that the post-war period brought in mediterranean immigrants and the subsequent prejudice against them. However, aside from the brutal and omnipresent oppression of the natives (who were pushed to the fringes anyway) there was one major divison in Australian society - between the British and the Irish, the settlers and their 'slaves'. <br><br>The games of these settler's are rugby and cricket, the Irish play their own traditional game but lack the money and infrastructure to build their own parks. So they take a rugby ball and they run onto the cricket oval (in winter, when the cricket season is in hiatus) and they play their old game, just with a different ball and on a different shaped oval. The game becomes popular, it is codified. Over time, slight differences evolve, but still, 140 years on, the game remains close to it was originally played in Ireland. <br><br>And yet.....the centuries old hatred of the Irish forbids the historians from acknowledging it's roots. This is a game that is played in some of Australia's finest protestant grammar schools, we can't be saying that it was brought over by bogtrotters.<br><br>Anyway...I'm rambling, but the point is - even on matter as trivial as this, history will be distorted. Even when the evidence is as obvious as the nose on your face, you will accept an alternative explanation if you don't like the obvious one. <p></p><i></i>
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re:ffotebale

Postby rain » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:19 pm

this is an unedited, first draft essay by a 17 year old melbournian. used with permission. oh. ok. I had to twist her arm a bit.<br>****<br>Ah, the footy season! It's never seen coming and never seen going, mainly because the few mebournians who maintain some semblance of sanity determinedly turn a blind eye at the sight of it while the rest of the footy-neurotic rabble are too busy jumping up and down about it to pay much attention to the finer details. What is it about football that has the ability to affect the masses in this way? As the australian rules football season comes back around again disputes are seen to break out nearly everywhere. Years ago before football was such an enormous money spinning industry, viewed nationwide, terms and language which can be heard to pour forth from nearly any "decent" supporter's mouth would've been saved for the like of church or politics. These days the main focus of your average citizens passion, is football. <br>Is this a worldwide conspiracy to prevent people thinking? While our common sense tells us all that football is only a game vast amounts of time, energy and money are spent presenting this spectacle to the masses. Many people that would otherwise be accepted as normal individuals are seen spending money to see two groups of grown men try to kick a ball from one end of a stadium to another! Now we realise why gladiator fights were so popular in ancient rome compared to this form of entertainment it must've been thrilling. However lets not go too easy on the society that surely played a part in the genetics that allow your average human to switch off at the sight of conflict and transform into a maniac screaming threats at the team they claim to be supporting. It is simply a case of having a better place for it than at the footy stadium at the time. Although, the Roman writer Cicero writes of one case in which a man was killed whilst having a shave when a ball was kicked into the barbers shop.<br>Perhaps the fact that kicking at objects with our feet seems to have been bred into us now contributes the the way peoples' passion for it has grown. Although the earliest forms of football are not known the first known reference to football in England was given by Willian FitzStephen :<br>After lunch all the youth of the city go out into the fields to take part in a ball game. The students of each school have their own ball; the workers from each city craft are also carrying their balls. Older citizens, fathers, and wealthy citizens come on horseback to watch their juniors competing, and to relive their own youth vicariously: you can see their inner passions aroused as they watch the action and get caught up in the fun being had by the carefree adolescents.<br> <br>Throughout the history of mankind the urge to kick at stones and other such objects is thought to have led to many early activities involving kicking and/or running with a ball. Football-like games predate recorded history in all parts of the world, though the earliest forms of football are not known.<br><br>There are a number of less well-documented references to prehistoric ancient or traditional ball games, played by indigenous peoples all around the world. For example, William Strachey of the Jamestown settlement is the first to record a game played by the Native Americans called Pahsaheman.Iin 1610 In Victoria, Australia Indigenous Australians played a game called Marn Grook An 1878 book by Robert Brough-Smyth The Aborigines of Victoria, quotes a man called Richard Thomas as saying, in about 1841 that he had witnessed Aboriginal people playing the game: "Mr Thomas describes how the foremost player will drop kick a ball made from the skin of a possum and how other players leap into the air in order to catch it." It is widely believed that Marn Grook had an influence on the development of Australian Rules Football <br><br>The first description of football in England was given by William FitzStephen (c. 1174-1183). He described the activities of London youths during the annual festival of Shrove Tuesday <br>After lunch all the youth of the city go out into the fields to take part in a ball game. The students of each school have their own ball; the workers from each city craft are also carrying their balls. Older citizens, fathers, and wealthy citizens come on horseback to watch their juniors competing, and to relive their own youth vicariously: you can see their inner passions aroused as they watch the action and get caught up in the fun being had by the carefree adolescents.<br><br>By 1608 , the local authorities in Manchester were complaining that:<br>With the ffotebale...[there] hath beene greate disorder in our towne of Manchester we are told, and glasse windowes broken yearlye and spoyled by a companie of lewd and disordered persons using that unlawful exercise of playing with the ffotebale in ye streets of the said towne, breaking many men's windows and glasse at their pleasure and other great inormyties<br>That same year, the modern spelling of the word "football" is first recorded, when it was used disapprovingly by William Shakespeare Shakespeare's play King Lear (which was first published in 160<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 8) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> contains the line: "Nor tripped neither, you base football player" (Act I Scene 4). Shakespeare also mentions the game in A Comedy of Errors (Act II Scene 1):<br>Am I so round with you as you with me,<br>That like a football you do spurn me thus?<br>You spurn me hence, and he will spurn me hither:<br>If I last in this service, you must case me in leather. <br>("Spurn" literally means to kick away, thus implying that the game involved kicking a ball between players.)<br><br>Football had come to be adopted by a number of public schools as a way of encouraging competitiveness and keeping youths fit. Each school drafted their own rules to suit the dimensions of their playing field. The rules varied widely between different schools and were changed over time with each new intake of pupils. Soon, two schools of thought about how football should be played emerged. Some schools favoured a game in which the ball could be carried (as at Rugby, Marlborough <and Cheltenham ), whilst others preferred a game where kicking and dribbling the ball was promoted (as at Eton, Harrow , Westminster and Charterhouse. The division into these two camps was partly the result of circumstances in which the games were played. At Charterhouse and Westminster the boys were confined to playing their ball game within the cloisters making the rough and tumble of the handling game difficult.<br><br>Tom Wills began to develop Australian rules football in Melbourne during 1858 . Wills had been educated in England, at Rugby School and had played cricket for Cambridge University. The extent to which Wills was directly influenced by British and Irish football games is unknown, but there were similarities between some of them and his game. There were pronounced similarities between Wills's game and Gaelic football (as it would be codified in 1887). It appears that Australian Rules also has some similarities to the Indigenous Australian game of Marn Grook.<br><br>In most English-speaking countries, the word "football" usually refers to Association football , also known as soccer (soccer originally being a slang abbreviation of Association). Of the 45 national FIFA where english is an official or primary language, only four - Canada , New Zealand , Samoa and the United States - use soccer in their name, while the rest use football. In Australia, the governing body's renaming and increased usage of "football" rather than "soccer" has caused controversy as the word has traditionally been used to refer to Australian rules football and rugby league. It should be noted, however, that the Austalian association football team are still known as the "Socceroos".<br><br>consumer fanaticism - the level of involvement or interest one has in in the liking of a particular person, group, trend, artwork or idea <br>religious fanaticism - the most extreme form of religious fundamentalism which typical takes on violent, and potentially deadly dimensions <br><br>*****<br><br>a tip to intrepid travellers: never, ever, unless you're already that way inclined, mention the 's' word or the 'f' word to an aussie, particularly if they're from melboune, as the response leads to speculation that the dna responsible for said response must be hardwired right between the primitive flight and/or fight response.<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Sports as aggression

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:22 pm

Bkkexile,<br><br>Thanks for bringing that up.<br><br>That bit about the Irish is very true, but the history of football in general follows your description of Aussie rules very well. Apparantly when the rules of soccer and rugby were formalised it was the protestant aristocracy that favoured socced, with its skills and elitist attitude, and the working people that favoured rugby, which had a bit of biff.<br><br>SBS had a doco on it the other week.<br><br>The aboriginal bit comes to me by word of mouth from someone whose family have been involved in the sport from the beginning. There were massacres of tribes in the Richmond Collingwood areas, and the shame of the acts still prevents people from discussing it.<br><br>Kind of fits with the shame the rah rah boys (as "Rah rah rah we're going to smash the oinks"), would feel about their game coming from such piffling Irish roots.<br><br>Anyway I can often see football as a metaphor for life. Laugh at that all you like, And I stopped playing from the mid eighties till 2002, I moved to melbourne and the place was footy mad. It put me off the game.<br><br>I will get to those other points later.<br><br>I am as nationalistic as anyone when it comes to my countries teams playing sport, and defeating the opposition has a fair bit to do with it.<br><br>But the game against Brazil is a case in point. To me the concept of warfare is about as far from watching that game as I can get.<br><br>Sure there are elements of competition, beating an opponent etc, And courage committment and determination, which all soldiers must possess in relation to their fellow soldiers, cos they are all relying on each other for their mutual survival, their leaders and the instigators of war don't necessarily need or possess these characteristics.<br><br>I was disappointed at the game, at the ref, and that we missed our opportunities (we? I'll get to that). you can't be disappointed at a ref in war BTW.<br><br>But also proud of the effort, surprised by how good they actually were compared to Brazil, and dazzled at the levels of individual skill and sheer magic that some of the Brazillians could generate.<br><br>the boys on that field were representing me. they were wearing a jumper that stands for the land I live on and brings pleasure to those that live here with me. They were taking elements of what we consider important as a people, and carrying them on to a world stage, to compete in a game.<br><br>They were representing some of the best aspects of my culture and home to the world. Sure its a symbolic thing, not literal, but that side has less to o with beating the opposition and more to do with saying "look at me, look at what I can do".<br><br>now maybe that seems immature, but it is a vital part of human life. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Et in arcadia ego

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:50 am

yoiks. Can ya find smaller pictures? Now the text is very hard to read for some of us with square monitors. For Art's sake.Thanks. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Sports as aggression

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:24 am

Found this by accident searching up early spook Gordon Gray who first chaired the 1951 Psychological Strategy Board.<br><br>(By the way, technorati.com doesn't like some of my searches about CIA. Pages I had seen became '404 not found' a few minutes later.)<br><br>Doesn't get more obvious than this: <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Disney, Football, and War.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>Looks like the Pat Tillman sports-hero turned into betrayed casualty story is getting displaced by another recruiting success story.<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://nflbiz.blogspot.com/2006/05/nfl-disney-collaboration-produces.html">nflbiz.blogspot.com/2006/...duces.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br> <br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.sportsbusinesssims.com/13%20Heroes%20of%20War.m4p">www.sportsbusinesssims.co...%20War.m4p</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br>Click to hear <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>"Heroes of War" - featured music from NFL Films.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>NFL / Disney Collaboration Produces "Invincible"<br></strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>As part of the events for NFL Draft week in New York, a press conference was held at Gustavino's and on "Invincible", a new Disney movie about Vince Papale, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>a walk-on who became a star </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->for the Philadelphia Eagles. Mark Walburgh (who plays Vince), Papale, Grer Kinnear (who plays Dick Vermiel), and producers Mark Ciardi and Gordon Gray (The Rookie) are in this, as are the NFL's head of marketing, Phil Guaras<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Et in arcadia ego

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:49 am

rain what an awesome essay. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Sports as aggression

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:31 am

I know its gone now but thanks for the art arcadia.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Is this a worldwide conspiracy to prevent people thinking?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I used to feel that way living in melbourne. Yet as soon as i left, and before I got there. I thought Aussie rules was awesome (mostly awesome fun to play).<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>consumer fanaticism - the level of involvement or interest one has in in the liking of a particular person, group, trend, artwork or idea <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>religious fanaticism - the most extreme form of religious fundamentalism which typical takes on violent, and potentially deadly dimensions <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>To me football is a very good channel for religious fanatacism.<br><br>The Taliban turned football grounds into execution sites, and while that may seem to invalidate my point, I'd simply ask what the difference is.<br><br>Consumerism is a sad way to refer to culture, ie a person, group, trend, idea or artwork. Its propaganda, used by people who want to define all human interactions as commodifiable. Its unfortunate that sport at a level other then local and possbly regional levels does such a good job of promoting that meme, but its even more unfortunate that sport is only one example of the trend.<br><br>Like the former dutch coach on the Age site, what you bring to the situation is part of what it will produce. That individual obviously had a militaristic streak, and constructed his worldview to reflect the priimacy of the military way of doing things. One side of the military way of doing things is its understanding of space, logistics, assets and threats and how to use the relationships between these things to ones advantage.<br><br>That translates well to sports, but also to many other things. the heirarchial nature of my local bush fire brigade, the fact we wear uniforms, and that we follow standard procedures (where possible) follow a chain of command may make the organisation seem like a fascist militaristic fun house.<br><br>But it isn't.<br><br>Hugh in reference to your last posting, I can't speak about american football, or gridiron in terms other than its a Nazi's wet dream.<br><br>Even the fact that people wear protective padding takes away from some central humanity that other sports convey.<br><br>However as far as aggression goes.<br><br>Chanelled aggression is vital in sport, and understanding it is vital for success in sport. But also in life, if only to maintain ones personal safety and dignity.<br><br>I personally love the contest, and the competition, and I love winning. Thats hardwired into me, and could turn me into a complete arsewipe, if I hadn't learned some human qualities that i am proud of and thankful for, playing football.<br><br>but having a ritual space to invoke the forces that inspire aggression, and the desire to do amazing physical feats is a good outlet.<br><br>It also enables me to invoke other forces. self sacrifice, not "quitting" cos its hard and painful, teamwork, respect for opponents who's actions have commanded my respect.<br><br>And a genuine social relationship that leaves the aggro on the field, with the people I compete against. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Sports as aggression

Postby professorpan » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:36 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>but having a ritual space to invoke the forces that inspire aggression, and the desire to do amazing physical feats is a good outlet.<br><br>It also enables me to invoke other forces. self sacrifice, not "quitting" cos its hard and painful, teamwork, respect for opponents who's actions have commanded my respect.<br><br>And a genuine social relationship that leaves the aggro on the field, with the people I compete against.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>That's a damn good summary of the positive aspects of sports, Joe. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Coaching Joe Hillshoist

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:41 am

Joe H, I appreciate your comments on the healthy aspects of sport you know from experience and I can understand why blanket generalizations from non-participants would make you wary.<br><br>I'm glad you agree thing has a cultural context quite apart from the absolute experience for participants.<br><br>As you also note, the phenomenon for the American TV Nation is more Nuremberg rally with all the appearance of Leni Reifenstahl's 'Triumph of the Will.'<br><br>Smells like-<br>Ritual affirmation of industrial war between competing tribes and might-makes-right social Darwinism.<br><br>The Super Bowl Half Time Show right after 9/11 was awesome power theater mixing football, war, and rock music.<br><br>One of the 14 attributes of fascism common to culture's that succumb to the disease is 'a fascination with power,' like sports, NASCAR, rodeo, rock music, etc. <br>These mostly male energies are easily channeled into human war.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Support

Postby shaver » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:46 pm

<br>I followed professional sports, baseball religiously, as a youth and teenager, and loved playing them. <br><br>But seeing through the baseball strike of '94(<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_baseball_strike)">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/199...ll_strike)</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br>that concerns were focused no longer on the sport and were just about the money, my childhood idealism of the game was forever shattered. <br><br>Back to the discussion through... driving home last night I was behind a monster SUV with the "Support Our Troops" yellow ribbon car magnet. And it dawned on me that this was just the same as someone with a sticker for the Redskins or the Cubs. With the disasters repeatedly played out (and lack of peace) in any foreign war that Bush engages in, it seems war is just about the money and his rich friend's enrichment. I guess these "Support Our Troops" folks don't come to the same conclusion about his wars that I do. <br><br>professorpan, Cheney got booed when he threw out the first pitch at the Washington National's season opener this year too. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Support

Postby professorpan » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:39 pm

Shaver, I confused the Nationals with the Os. Thanks for the correction. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Coaching Joe Hillshoist

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:51 am

Even the professional sport has its moments. For all my bagging of grid iron, the actaul play can be incredibly athletic and skillful.<br><br>But that's just not enough to save it in my view.<br><br>There is another side to following a team, I support the North Melbourne Kangaroos, in the national AFL.<br><br>It is a hard thing to explain...<br><br>My ideas on politics, religion, science you name it. they are all open to change, everything is. except my team.<br><br>I like the abstraction of that fundamentalist side of my nature. Cos it puts it in a context where it does no harm. After all its only footy. ("Only footy? surely thats blasphemy " - Joe's other selves pipe up).<br><br>But I still bleed blue and white.<br><br>I have stood in the outer watching "my boys" getting flogged by 20 or 30 goals in the rain. Wondering what the hell I was doing there, but unable to leave, and leave them with no support (despite the fact they didn't really deserve it).<br><br>Some people might think such dumb loyalty is foolish, and maybe it is, but it has helped build my character over the years.<br><br>And the joy I got 11 years later when they won their first flag since I was a kid...<br><br>I met their captain on a plane at the start of that year, had a magic talisman that I left him use to focus on winning that flag...<br><br>Another thing about AFL, it is still based heavily in local suburban clubs from Melbourne.<br><br>It is not so far removed from everyday life as pro sport is in the states. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Coaching Joe Hillshoist

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:09 am

well coaching is an interesting thing.<br><br>I played for a town called Nimbin up until this year. That town has its problems, but taking some of the street kids into the club did wonders for some of them.<br><br>you could see the growth in honour,dignity and decency.<br><br>Sure most of them still deal on the street, still fight and still run amok, but some have just respect for themselves and others as well.<br><br>That is something i will always be proud of. My involvement in those kids, I wasn't the coach there, but I assisted and was in the "on field leadership group". we were able to turn trouble making thugs into good people. some of those kids were on the verge of hospitalisation or worse, and I was one of the people about to be involved in putting them there too.<br><br>But instead i swallowed me pride and anger and made an effort with some.<br><br>I am so glad I made that decision, and the following years have brought rewards for that decision that I would never have forseen.<br><br>i guess what i am getting at is that like everything else in life whaty you bring to a situation determines what the situation will bring into the world at large.<br><br>I am well aware of football's fascist potential, I first read the mass psychology of fascism in the late 80s.<br><br>I would like to think in some small way I trying to keep the anti fascist elements of football alive. Just to try and balance the mess. Ole Joe is probably delusional, but its worth a try. <p></p><i></i>
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