Sport and War, wow they are so similar...

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Re: Coaching Joe Hillshoist

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:26 am

Bringing troubled kids into the fold is a noble cause and I can only imagine how good it must feel to make a person's life better. I've done just a little mentoring myself and it feels great to be able to share the wisdom of your years with a younger guy who needs a surrogate family and a positive perspective. But this is positive only as long as that surrogate family is the human family and not just 'your team.'<br><br>What you wrote above about your attachment to your team reads exactly like what soldiers feel for their battle field buddies.<br><br>And in a fit of synchronicity, here is an article that just turned up online about sports as war and how Europe and America treat it differently with a quote from General-turned-president Dwight Eisenhower.<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0620-23.htm">www.commondreams.org/views06/0620-23.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>Published on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 by The Nation<br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Hey Guys, It's Just A Game</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>by Dave Zirin & John Cox<br><br><br>More than half a century ago, Dwight Eisenhower famously said, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>"The true mission of American sports is to prepare young men for war."</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> This is the undeniable downside of sports: the way teamwork, camaraderie, and competition can be used to desensitize a population to the horrors of war. And it is particularly part of the sporting DNA of what Americans call football, where games are routinely referred to as "battles" or "wars," and NFL quarterbacks are "field generals" who throw bullet passes and bombs for the purpose of advancing on enemy territory.<br><br>Consider the bellicose posturing of American striker Eddie Johnson at the World Cup, a few days before his team managed to tie the favored Italians in an ugly match featuring three ejections.<br><br>"We're here for a war," Johnson said a few days before the game, after visiting US troops at Ramstein Air Base. "Whenever you put your jersey on and you look at your crest and the national anthem's going on, and you're playing against a different country, it's like you do or die, it's survival of the (fittest) over ninety minutes-plus. We're going to go out there and do whatever we've got to do, make tackles, do the things when the referee's not looking...to get three points." Johnson concluded by saying, "It's do or die.... I don't want to go home early." Ironically, most of the American troops Johnson thinks he's supporting would like nothing better than to "go home early" from combat duty in Iraq. <br><br> The World Cup has historically aimed to be a counterweight to the passions of war. But Johnson's comments are consistent with the militaristic spirit that some US fans have brought to the games. Without question, England, Poland, Germany and other teams have their share of fringe hooligans, some openly racist. But Team USA's most prominent fan club calls itself "Sam's Army." While the fan club explicitly rejects racism and soccer hooliganism, its website is replete with martial imagery and belligerent anthems.<br><br>Johnson's comments illuminate <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>a crucial difference between how Americans and Europeans think about war--and sport. Europeans are not quite so blithe on these matters, having seen the continent decimated twice in the past century by war.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> It is not surprising that a number of Italian players were alternately bemused and repulsed by Johnson's war talk. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>more...<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Coaching Joe Hillshoist

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:50 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But this is positive only as long as that surrogate family is the human family and not just 'your team.'<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I fully agree. part of the deal is that what you learn on the field you take into the world. That feeling of respect for all of humanity is something I stress every chance I get. I also stress that what happens on the field stays on the field.<br><br>One of the great things about football is playing with your mates.<br><br>Funnily enough one of the great things about football is playing against your mates.<br><br>but again the socialisation thing is important. Respect for the opposition and all that.<br><br>Sometimes its hard to sit down and share a joint and a beer with someone you were actually loosing it at and perhaps even punching 20 minutes earlier, but (it happens - we are passionate and can llose it) that really should have no place in footy, and when inevitably it happens, the real trick is to be able to step away from it and interact like humans.<br><br>next time you are on the field you may try to main each other, but ... I know its not sane or rational, but often on field enemies become off field friends over the years.<br><br>Of course people involved in the sport who are fundamentally rude inconsiderate arseholes don't help this process. but they bring that energy with them everywhere they go.<br><br>I have respect for soldiers too.<br><br>What they do and the similarities of feeling are also similar to the feeling those of us in the volunteer emergency services have. There is no enemy there, and yet the danger is real. those feeling come from shared risk and responsibility, and from the knowledge that someone else has risked possibly everything they have for you. In Aussie rules there is the concept of shepherding, where you protect your teammate with the ball, by putting your body on the line. When someone that weighs 30 kg more than you is charging flat out at your friend (they may also be your friend) you will hopefully step in and wear the contact for your teammate as an individual, and the success of the side.<br><br>On the firefront we are all risking our lives to protect people and their property.<br><br>In war soldiers protect their fellow soldiers. And face death together.<br><br>This is where the bond comes from. Shared risk.<br><br>In itself its a brilliant thing. How that translates to the rest of humanity is a cultural one, and one can judge a culture by its ability to do this in my book.<br><br>Its one of those unfortunate paradoxes of life that even something as inately good as that bond can be perverted to suit agenda's that seem so opposed to it. <p></p><i></i>
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Orwell's view

Postby friend catcher » Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:59 am

<br>        "Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war minus the shooting."<br>George Orwell<br>A recent comment on the BBC whilst covering last weeks Portugal v Angola match was "the masters are beating the servants" - a reference to Angolas fairly recent status as a Portugeese colony. The outright racism of football pundits is fairly legendary but this quote from the Ukraine Manager, Blokhin, is probably normal behind closed doors. <br> “Let them learn from a Shevchenko or a Blokhin and not from some Zumba-Bumba whom they took off a tree, gave him two bananas and now he plays in the Ukrainian league.”<br><br>The Dutch fans who dress in Orange and have a local beer logo on their trousers were forbidden to enter a stadium because Budweiser owned the beer rights to the world cup- not a problem said 1000 Dutch supporters, so they took off their trousers and enjoyed the match in their underwear.<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://football.guardian.co.uk/worldcup2006/story/0,,1800885,00.html">football.guardian.co.uk/w...85,00.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Orwell's view

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:31 am

Probably the most famous quote about culture, war, and sports is s attributed to the Duke of Wellington after he defeated Napoleon: <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>"The Battle of Wateloo was won on the playing fields of Eton."</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>Whether this was actually said or not, the idea of structured competition as socialization is an old one. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Orwell's view

Postby existentialist » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:03 am

Competitive sport is an example of what is wrong with the thinking in our societies. It makes us feel good to '<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>beat</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->' the opponent. We don't want to be '<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>losers</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->', do we? It's a perfect symbiosis of expectation and disappointment; fear and triumph.<br><br>Sport is fast becoming the new opium of the masses. <p></p><i></i>
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Single combat

Postby yathrib » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:22 pm

I've said it before, I'll say it again. We need to bring back single combat, as in the time of the Iliad. Bush one-on-one w/ Saddam. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Single combat

Postby Iroquois » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:20 pm

The right of single combat, another Irish tradition. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Single combat

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:10 am

Yeah bring back single combat. And assassination, lets do away with standing armies all together.<br><br>I have never understood why ordinary citizens winge about politicians then get offended if someone tries to assassinate one.<br><br>Probably jealousy... <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Orwell's view

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:38 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>“Let them learn from a Shevchenko or a Blokhin and not from some Zumba-Bumba whom they took off a tree, gave him two bananas and now he plays in the Ukrainian league.”<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I can't deny the underlying racism of the prick, but he may have a fair point.<br><br>The addition of a Dutch coach to the Australian soccer side made a huge difference.<br><br>Coachs in AFL who have professional League experience know so much more about the game.<br><br>This is the same with everything, not just sport. I'll bet you could hear some pretty similar comments from orchestra managers, or heads of European art schools. Behind closed doors.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The Dutch fans who dress in Orange and have a local beer logo on their trousers were forbidden to enter a stadium because Budweiser owned the beer rights to the world cup- not a problem said 1000 Dutch supporters, so they took off their trousers and enjoyed the match in their underwear.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>See sport teaches creativity and a lack of ego based in material goods and body image.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"The Battle of Wateloo was won on the playing fields of Eton."<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I don't know if this is actually a bad thing. I think it actually refers to the characters that people grew and formed on those playing fields. Not some central issue with the culture.<br><br>Is industrialism a bad thing? Is the state a bad thing? - both of these elements of society are vital to our modern world. the first is more central to war than sport and the second vital to it, the reason for wars existance.<br><br>I am digressing here. back to wellington. I don't think that comment applies really, except to say that on the ground, if weapons are equal, whoever wins a war is the side with more herart, courage and ferocity, and tenacity. This is not necessary a bad thing for a culture. Provided it also has maturity and compassion.<br><br>The ability to generate these qualities and apply them where necessary served British culture well, but it was the repression that was passed on thru families that really shaped the ability to apply warlike qualities when necessary. IMO.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Competitive sport is an example of what is wrong with the thinking in our societies. It makes us feel good to 'beat' the opponent. We don't want to be 'losers', do we?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>When I came back to footy, I rang the team, Nimbin, the guy I spoke to said "We haven't won a game all year."<br><br>Doesn't matter. I have lost more games than I have won playing for that side. if anything it taught me how to accept defeat gracefully.<br><br>We also took that side from worst in the league to unbeaten in 12 games over 2 seasons, and I get more out of the way we brought it together as a group, than the wins these days. Pity the 13 th game was the Grand Final.<br><br>But competition is good, healthy and winning feels good.<br><br>"If you can meet with triumph and disaster and meet those two impossters just the same."<br><br>As some colonialist wanker once said.<br><br>It also taught me how to never ever give up, no matter how great the odds and how impossible the chance of winning. If the mess thats been of world is to ever be cleaned up it will need that attitude in spades.<br><br>Quote of the day so far (off topic, just on the radio)<br><br>"It was like an oil painting, with ....<br><br>rhythm."<br><br>I guess you had to be there. I am off to footy training. cop ya later. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Sport and War, wow they are so similar...

Postby elfismiles » Sat Aug 27, 2016 1:54 pm

Colin Kaepernick explains why he sat during national anthem
By Steve Wyche
NFL Media reporter
Published: Aug. 27, 2016 at 10:04 a.m. Updated: Aug. 27, 2016 at 01:35 p.m.

SANTA CLARA, Calif. -- San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick has willingly immersed himself into controversy by refusing to stand for the playing of the national anthem in protest of what he deems are wrongdoings against African Americans and minorities in the United States.

His latest refusal to stand for the anthem -- he has done this in at least one other preseason game -- came before the 49ers' preseason loss to Green Bay at Levi's Stadium on Friday night.

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game. "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."


The 49ers issued a statement about Kaepernick's decision: "The national anthem is and always will be a special part of the pre-game ceremony. It is an opportunity to honor our country and reflect on the great liberties we are afforded as its citizens. In respecting such American principles as freedom of religion and freedom of expression, we recognize the right of an individual to choose and participate, or not, in our celebration of the national anthem."

The NFL also released a statement, obtained by NFL Media Insider Ian Rapoport: "Players are encouraged but not required to stand during the playing of the national anthem."

By taking a stand for civil rights, Kaepernick, 28, joins other athletes, like the NBA's Dwyane Wade, Chris Paul, LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony and several WNBA players in using their platform and status to raise awareness to issues affecting minorities in the U.S.

However, refusal to support the American flag as a means to take a stand has brought incredible backlash before and likely will in this instance. The NBA's Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf of the Denver Nuggets, formerly Chris Jackson before converting to Islam, refused to acknowledge the flag in protest, citing similar reasons as Kaepernick and saying that it conflicted with some of his Islamic beliefs.

Abdul-Rauf drew the ire of fans and was briefly suspended by the NBA before a compromise was worked out between the league and player, who eventually stood with his teammates and coaches at the playing of the national anthem.

Kaepernick said that he is aware of what he is doing and that he knows it will not sit well with a lot of people, including the 49ers. He said that he did not inform the club or anyone affiliated with the team of his intentions to protest the national anthem.

"This is not something that I am going to run by anybody," he said. "I am not looking for approval. I have to stand up for people that are oppressed. ... If they take football away, my endorsements from me, I know that I stood up for what is right."

Kaepernick said that he has thought about going public with his feelings for a while but that "I felt that I needed to understand the situation better."

He said that he has discussed his feelings with his family and, after months of witnessing some of the civil unrest in the U.S., decided to be more active and involved in rights for black people. Kaepernick, who is biracial, was adopted and raised by white parents and siblings.

Kaepernick's Twitter feed is filled with civil rights messages.


The former Super Bowl starting quarterback's decision to go public comes while he is fighting for his football life with the 49ers, who drafted him in the second round in 2011. He lost his starting job last season after being one of the most promising players in the NFL during his run under former coach Jim Harbaugh.

Over the past few months, his relationship with management has turned sour. He requested a trade last spring, which never came. He also has spent most of the offseason rehabilitating from operations to his left (non-throwing) shoulder, his hand and knee. His recovery left him unable to fully compete with Blaine Gabbert for months and has him seemingly in a bind to regain his starting job.

He made his preseason debut against the Packers and played in the second quarter, completing two of six passes for 14 yards. He looked as rusty as you'd expect from someone who has not played since last November.

Following the game, and without any knowledge of Kaepernick's non-football behavior, coach Chip Kelly said that there has never been any discussion about cutting Kaepernick. Rapoport added Saturday that Kelly will make "football decisions" on Kaepernick, despite the quarterback's comments.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000 ... nal-anthem
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