American Coup D'Etat:

by **rothbardian** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:01 am

A few added thoughts here: Another fundamental problem with coercive government (including so-called 'democracy') is that it violates natural rights-- If I work, I have therefore earned the fruit of my labor. For someone to forcibly confiscate any portion of that, is injustice. Someone might argue-"Well, the coercive collective (of "tax dolars") is for the "good" of the overall community." But....it's NOT being used for good, 90% of the time. It's being used for the evil purposes of the PTB. Democracy is a scam. It has no validity whatsoever. For example, a democratic majority have, as of recently, supported the murder of nearly 750,000 Iraqis (500,000 under the Clinton-backed embargo; 50-75,000 murdered by Bush Sr. during the bogus "Desert Storm"; 100-150,000 so far with the Iraq war). Any form of government that authorizes and perpetrates holocausts is an invalidated and discredited concept. To step forward with the proposal that we try "democracy" one more time, after having watched democracy succumb to, participate in, and wholeheartedly support...holocaust after holocaust, is irrational, IMO. The Civil War, the Philipines holocaust (courtesy of Theodore Roosevelt), WW1, WW2, the Vietnam war, on and on...holocaust after holocaust, all enjoyed rousing democratic support. "Democracy" has demonstrated time and again, that it will perpetrate mass murder. My idea is that nobody gets to have that kind of power. If you unwisely create centralized control mechanisms...bad people are attracted to those central controls, and when they get into that position they immediately seek to use that power monopoly to CONSOLIDATE their position and achieve totalitarianism. That's where we are today...on the verge of the entire planet being turned into a worldwide dungeon. Get rid of the coercive centralized powers so that evil people can no longer mass produce their evil. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rothbardian>rothbardian</A> at: 9/5/06 1:03 am

by **Gouda** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:31 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>KEN LAY AND ENRON The thing you don't seem to notice about Ken Lay and Enron is...that when they did a bad job, they went out of business. That is the natural accountability of the private sector that doesn't exist in the government...The other thing about Enron is that most of the blame for Enron's failure goes to, again, the government. <hr></blockquote> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The Enron execs were not able to successfully predict the Fed's counterfeiting and (artificial) inflation/deflation cycles. And because most execs are signed onto the Wall StreetJournal/ NYTimes/HarvardBusinessSchool/Keynsian economic theory/baloney...they had no sense of the danger they were in.<hr></blockquote>???????????????????????????????????????????????????????? I seem to have suddenly acquired one of your frequent bouts of confusion. Though it is pretty wild. I like it, on an uncomprehending level. A merciful plea: please don't try to explain this further.

by **Gouda** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:54 pm

Roth you have stated that corporate entities such as Halliburton have hijacked, or grabbed hold of the powers of government. Well, I agree this is an accurate observation of reality. However, your interpretation of this fact is faulty. The people (corporate lobbyists, corporate politicians, revolving door politico-businessmen) and the system (national security corporate capitalism) that have hijacked and abuse the government are to blame - not the inherent rightness or wrongness of that government’s structure or intended function. If Halliburton, for example, has got hold of government powers, let’s rise up and take them back, and cut off Halliburton. As a start. At minimum. You will say that the inherent nature of government is for these perverts to climb right back to the top - I say they don't have to: they have their global capital empire to rely on should government fall. Why are you blaming democracy or government when it has been undermined by the people holding de facto power? You are pinning the tail on the wrong ass. Blame them, not democracy. Democracy is a sham not because it is inherently a sham, but because capital monopolists have made it a sham; we never really knew it. That it may be too far perverted to be recovered is another argument. I do know it was never given a fair chance. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gouda@rigorousintuition>Gouda</A> at: 9/5/06 10:58 am

by **Gouda** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:23 pm

You say: “Get rid of the coercive centralized powers so that evil people can no longer mass produce their evil.” Sorry, but Government as it exists only in your books has been sold off or is being sold off by the power brokers working both inside and outside government structures, as according to plan. Your blindness to this fact perpetuates the ignorance enabling it. Fascist (in this case corporate) power exists whether there is government, democracy or not. Just because they find government and the façade of democracy convenient, does not mean there is something inherently wrong with government or democracy. It does mean there is something wrong with them and the system they seek to expand. In recent and present history, they use government (and even corporations) as a legitimizing façade so that people do not easily recognize what is happening and rise up against it. And they continue building their parallel empire behind this curtain of state. I think it is pretty clear that corporate & financial white supremacist oligarchs have been preparing for the day (subverting legitimate government functions along the way) when the government façade and nation-state borders can be safely discarded to expose that which is hidden. “Getting rid of government,” is already part of the plan. You have to look at the situation, the world as it is NOW. We have a sick, fucked up government NOW, so what are you going to do? Not vote? Not get together and work for changes to the electoral system? Not participate at all - and have us all follow you? That, I think, gives the fascists exactly what they want: a complete erasure of any power we may have left as a collective civil society. You will wake up the next day in a harsh tyranny far worse than any bumbling bureaucracy could devise. I understand the threats and abuses of state power, (left) libertarian & anarchist arguments against the state, etc. and agree for the most part - but the critique is not feasible from the capitalist, corporatist, free-market right. State power used to be more of a danger, but that is not the case anymore: it has become something else. They dance across borders and transgress all law. They build behind the facade. We ought to focus on that, go straight to the jugular, disempower it. Once the animators have had their power zapped, then maybe we can talk about reforming, downsizing, decentralizing, and/or eliminating state too, if even necessary at that point. First things first. In the last analysis Roth, I would be more inclined to discuss with you ways to unite and take down the ruling system alongside a libertarian-left p.o.v, but certainly not from the anti-social capitalist-libertarian right. There is some revolutionary potential in left-libertarianism. I’ve said all of the above with a full awareness of the abuses of state against civil society and the dangers of centralized power – but for me to take (temporary) leave of that and focus above and beyond and behind the huge problems with State, it really takes some really really bad fellas to do that. Maybe someday we will be in a position to entertain a form of participatory anarchy, but right now, in the real world, pragmatic compromises and alliances are essential insofar as one thing is certain: we give no oxygen to fascists, racists, bigots, misogynists, misanthropes, synarchists, elitists, totalitarians or theocrats. But you might have to renounce some of your "free individual" dogma and unite with others so that the elite perps are unable to continue to divide us. If we unite against them, then we are on the right path. However, I fear you are not willing to play with others. And I am sorry you hold such a low opinion of people. It shows in the ideology backing your political economy and it shows in your championing of corporate policy in the third world and economic injustice. It is functional, ideological, not based on facts or present realities, and seems completely divorced from human potential. Best of luck with your separatist revolution.

by **rothbardian** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:15 pm

You stated: "I say they don't have to: they have their global capital empire to rely on should government fall." How can you go and say such a thing, again? You claim that Halliburton is self-sustaining. You even used Halliburton as the example in the very paragraph from which I drew the above quote. Halliburton has nothing to "rely" on should government dollars be cut off. That's amazing that you just trot that concept right back out again. How is Halliburton self-sustaining?? If the bad guys had to rely on their own money to take over the world, they'd be out of money in half an hour. You also state: "Blame them, not democracy." For you as a 'progressive' to say that, seems ironic. Apply that reasoning to guns, and the NRA would love you-- "Blame the criminal, NOT the gun he used." I say--dismantle the 'gun' (of democracy). It's too much of an attraction to bad people. AND it's an unjust system-- 60% of the population could vote to kill the other 40%. Somebody might respond-- "That's absurd! That'll never happen." Wait a minute...60% (or so) DID support the mass murder in Iraq, over the last many years. A system that is capable of allowing, or perpetrating, or stumbling into (take your pick) such huge and evil disasters...needs to be done away with. Who needs democracy? Why do I need coercion from 'above' to live out my life? Think about it. Now that is truly absurd. This notion that we require a coercive government to be able to live our lives...is just a notion. A false notion. A notion that has had extremely tragic results, over and over. This unfathomable notion that we would be unable to organize our own lives unless certain ones of us put on baseball caps that have the word "bureaucrat" on them. You didn't touch on my central comment. I'll just repeat it: It is precisely BECAUSE OF the fallibility of human nature that we should NEVER EVER have positions of coercive authority. With the PTB having used the centralized coercive system of democracy to perpetrate holocaust after holocaust, you still want to cling to this system? It has proven to be a failure. The world as we know it, is about to end because the PTB have used the vehicle of democracy to drive us to the edge of totalitarianism.

by **Gouda** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:52 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>You didn't touch on my central comment. I'll just repeat it: It is precisely BECAUSE OF the fallibility of human nature that we should NEVER EVER have positions of coercive authority.<hr></blockquote> We should never allow centralized comments. How do you propose to keep fallible humans from building and acquiring positions of coercive authority in your for-profit, capital gains system? *** PS: My drinking is more progressive than my politics. After a few just right, it's all glorious anarchy and dionysian bliss.

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