Pedophile's sentence too harsh, judge rules

by **AnnaLivia** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:53 pm

lucky thing for this man that he lives in a world full of people far, far nicer than he is, eh? I do hear your wise voices of restraint, blanc and hava – loud and clear. I’ve said before that I am against the death penalty because… but only because… there’s no way to assure 100% accuracy, no mortal errors. Not only that, but I wouldn’t want to spend the kind of public fortune I suspect it would take to MAKE it 100% accurate. So I guess we’re all stuck buying his meals for him, etc, but I sure don’t have to like it. Make no mistake, I would rather 10 guilty to go free, than to execute one innocent wrongly. AND, I do not intend to stand in the way and object, if society decides to show mercy to people who have forfeited their right to draw breath. I could even say that justice without merciful consideration isn’t even justice. But is there really NO LINE a person can cross, that means he has forfeited that right to draw breath? In a case with these specifics…with no evidence of his being coerced, and no chance of error (5000 videotapes with him on some of them), you’ll never convince me he wouldn’t deserve just what I said, were he to get it. It would certainly prevent his re-offending. how far should we go to prevent these crimes?

by **friend catcher** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:32 pm

I think the death penalty always becomes a political weapon of intimidation. Though their are always going to be people who quite frankly should be removed from the face of the earth(yes dick and george , I include you) and individuals whose crimes are beyond comprehension, the error rate due to malevolence and incompetence is glaringly large. Here in the UK there have been many miscarriages of justice involving murder verdicts that fourty years ago would have sent 50 or more to the gallows and the backlog of cases still waiting retrial is huge. I also think justice needs to remain calm and that certain crimes can be dealt with by a prison sentence that keeps the offender away from society for ever, even if they do find god/jesus. I think that any state needs to be responsive to the needs of its citizens for basic security and stability but revenge is not a basis for a justice system. Containment for life is an effective treatment for irredeemable crimes.

by **havanagilla** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:57 pm

from ken wilber's blog - compassion delux ? <blockquote>Quote:<hr><a href="http://kenwilber.com/blog/show/33" target="top">Rabbi Marc Gafni and Sexual Improprieties</a> May 15, 2006 21:48 On Tuesday, May 9th, 2006, three women from Bayit Chadash, a spiritual community in Israel headed by Rabbi Marc Gafni, filed complaints of sexual misconduct against Gafni with the police. Upon reviewing relevant testimony, the steering committee of Bayit Chadash decided to remove Marc Gafni from the Bayit Chadash staff. (See below for the formal announcement.) Subsequently, rumors have been rife. After long conversations with many of the concerned parties, I have come to the following conclusions. At this time, these are my personal opinions, and are open to immediate revision in light of any further evidence. Marc Gafni is a close friend of mine, but in circumstances like this, friendship decidedly takes a backseat to ethics and justice. In my opinion, the viewpoint that takes the most number of perspectives into account is the more likely to be the better moral judgment, with the Basic Moral Intuition the ultimate guide. These are my conclusions at this time: 1. There is substantial truth to some of these allegations. 2. This has caused something of a feeding frenzy for the mean green meme, which is understandable but I believe inexcusable. Frankly, some of these have reached pathetic portions. 3. Nonetheless, there is some truth to these allegations because of grave wrongdoing on Marc's part, and I believe this wrongdoing is due not just to bad judgment on Marc's part, but to a pathology or dysfunction affecting Marc. 4. Marc, in a letter to Bayit Chadash, agreed that some of his actions indeed stemmed from a pathology or, as he termed it, a "sickness." 5. I do not believe that somebody with an acknowledged emotional illness or sexual pathology is competent to be a public spiritual teacher. Therefore, at this time, Marc will not be involved in public teaching or presentations of any sort at Integral Institute. 6. With Marc's agreement, I have asked Frances Vaughan to begin a consultation with Marc focused specifically on his dysfunction. 7. I have other suggestions for therapeutic work that I believe would be helpful to Marc, and I believe he is sincere in pursuing them. He will be stopping in Boulder/Denver periodically to consult with me and with Rabbi Zalman as to these directions. [Correction: Since having written this, I have spoken with Rabbi Zalman. Zalman has decided that it is best neither to meet nor speak with Mordechai until further notice.] 8. I realize that some people doubt Marc's sincerity. This is understandable. My strong recommendation has therefore been to create a board of advisors to oversee Marc's therapeutic work. This board would biannually review Marc's progress, and make specific recommendations at each juncture. This board would have to be composed of individuals completely acceptable to both sides (i.e., to Bayit Chadash and to Marc Gafni). 9. I have stated my conclusion, after reviewing the evidence and as many perspectives as I can, that there is truth to some of these allegations and that this is due in part to Marc's illness, and that as long as this dysfunction is not addressed, I do not believe that Marc should be teaching. But I want to point out that emotional illness can be treated and in many cases cured. Marc may or may not be sincere, and his therapy may or may not be effective-but that is exactly the purpose of the therapeutic board: namely, to make that decision, and not to let either of the partial sides do so. I do not know if this solution will work, but to date it is the only rational, compassionate, and fair one that I have heard, and therefore the only one which serves justice. 10. Whatever is decided on that issue, my understanding is that there is no objection to Marc pursuing his writing. We all recognize the brilliance of his contributions in this area. If we are accepting a "levels and lines" argument, then allowing Marc to pursue this line seems reasonable to me, and is something I would certainly recommend. This is an extraordinary difficult period for all parties concerned. Bayit Chadash has been hurt. Integral Institute has been hurt. Mordechai has been hurt by his own actions. And most of all, the parties directly involved have been hurt. But I beg all of you-all of us-not to inflame the situation further by demanding more pain, more suffering, more agony. Inflicting more pain on Marc will not take away the pain that all of us are already suffering. Let us not have an eye for an eye, but justice and mercy in equal proportions. Please don't let hatred into your soul, I beg you; that serves nobody, least of all those who offer hatred a home. My heart goes out to the women involved-I am so deeply, deeply sad at the pain and turmoil they have suffered; and my heart goes out to the men and women who have been affected by these tragic events. My heart goes out as well to Mordechai, a dear friend whose very bright light has cast a very sharp shadow, and in a way that has inadvertently caused such harm. I do believe, however, that emotional illness can be cured; I believe that reasonable restitution can be made; I believe that forgiveness and compassion are stronger than any evil in this world; and I know that the outreach of our own tender mercies and loving kindness will ultimately carry the day. Sending all of you much Love, Light, and Life, Ken Appendix: Stay tuned to this blog, and I will attempt to keep you up to date on these issues as best I can. Here is the formal announcement sent out by Bayit Chadash: Dear Ken, We must share with you that on Tuesday, May 9, 2006, three women from our community filed complaints of sexual misconduct against Mordechai Gafni with the police. We were aware of this situation because on Monday, May 8, 2006, we had previously read the depositions that these women had declared to an attorney. We also personally heard the testimonies of these women, as well as that of another woman from an institution where Rabbi Gafni previously worked. We shared our findings and recommendations with Shantam Zohar, a Bayit Chadash teacher and leader; and with Or Zohar, a Bayit Chadash teacher and our CEO. Our colleagues agreed with us that in the present situation, we should recommend to the Bayit Chadash steering committee that Mordechai Gafni's tenure in Bayit Chadash be ended immediately, or alternatively, we would collectively resign. After the members of the steering committee read some of the depositions, they decided to remove Mordechai Gafni from the Bayit Chadash staff. The decision of the steering committee was further reinforced in light of the complaints filed with the police. Were this was a matter solely related to Mordechai Gafni's private life, it would be of some concern to us and to the community. The problem is greatly exaggerated by the fact that this involves women from our community, staff members and students. It is our position that there is no place for relations like this between a rabbi and his students or between an employer and his employees, whether consensual or not. It would seem that this is also the opinion of Mordechai, since he swore all the women involved to eternal and absolute silence. Some women, however, decided to speak. We have no doubt that they speak truth, and willingly risk our personal credibility and integrity in support of their testimony. As to the criminal aspect of his actions, that is up to the police and the courts to decide. Beyond that, judgment is in the hands of the Judge of all the world. The sense of disappointment is very great, for us personally as well. Mordechai always treated us with friendship and respect. At times like this our sages say that one should scrutinize one's own actions, and meditate upon why one is part of such a story. Certainly there is much to learn from such a difficult and painful experience. May we all see, fear and tremble, may healing to our shared soul come swiftly, and may this healing encompass all involved and all who are witness, in this and all worlds. (end)<hr></blockquote> --------------------- while i don't advocate chemical castration, I think this is a bit too honey sweet...the men has a record for 20 years of mollesting students, and some minors as well, he now RAN AWAY from the police investigation, and is getting a "retreat" or "workshop" where he can have consultation de lux and go on writing...all under the seal of Ken Wilber. -- of course the israeli community as no less at fault for making him an adore guru after he escaped the USA 15 years ago from SIMILAR and worse allegations by congregants. the israelis decided this is BS, and ignored it. now...he just took the reverse route, and this time again, he is avoiding responsibility with the help of famous, new age people who "forgive" him. I saw him last year in passover which he ran next to my place, in a nice restaurant. he is charismatic and is clearly sexual-pro, he is eyeing every lady and makes her feel unique. He ran an "interfaith" Sedder, with both Jews and Moslem (WOMEN>>>) chairing. the food was hillarious, the music was terrific etc. However, I noticed among the honorary guests in his bench was an israeli general, and i remember having this uncomfortable feeling that he is being involved in shady stuff. but that's just my IDF allergy...:-), it never failed me though. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=havanagilla>havanagilla</A> at: 6/1/06 2:10 pm

by **AnnaLivia** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:21 pm

i'm going out to the garden to get on my knees in the dirt and pull some weeds, before i spontaneously combust from thinking about how casually societies treat rape. the average CONVICTED rapist spends less than 3 years in jail. and rape is used to terrorize and punish in wars all the time. and women and children keep suffering and dying, or suffering and remembering, while good people urge each other to be more noble. something is SO WRONG here

by **mother** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:40 pm

The Montreal anonymous offender was proven guilty, therefore he needs the harshest possible punishment. I don't care if anyone thinks I'm a right-wing whacko, or whatever, I don't care. That guy needs a dirt nap. The judge needs to spend some time thinking things over in a prison.

by **friend catcher** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:17 pm

There's nothing like vicarious justice to satisfy the endless catholic bloodlust. Locked away for life would surely be practical and fitting. Judge removed from office for life and a serious review of sentencing procedures.

by **mother** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:43 pm

No, friend. Your 'endless catholic bloodlust' is a phrase intended to bait. My wish for this monster to be gone has only to do with my own, personal emotional reaction , common among those who have chosen to care for injured children. What about the kids? Why should they have to worry about someone like that getting out and coming back after them? Havn't they suffered enough? friendcatcher, the enless bloodlust is in the hearts and minds of pedophile predators who make money destroying children. You've got your accusations mixed up.

by **friend catcher** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:43 pm

Vicarious , look it up. You advocate death on a case you know nothing about, in a country you do not live in (unless of course, you do)and after your recent postings about catholicism and the true nature of spirituality, the least you can do is hold up to the teachings of the one you profess to follow. Maybe I missed something in my futile jesuit education and Jesus did advocate death for crimes that personally piss us off. In short you might have trouble squaring this little paradox so get in touch with your pagan inner self and never bother anyone again with your spiritual baggage as it will not stand up to scrutiny. Utterley gutless at the drop of a hat. On the other hand I should thank you for reminding me of what pretentious, self absorbed ,hypocritical ,gob shites, catholics/christians are and always will be . Let the blood flow and you will be redeemed.

by **mother** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:59 pm

<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"> oh, mean old vicarious, pretentious me!! Sorry to be so mean about that poor child rapist! Now it proves that i am a gob shite! This cracks me up for real! Gob Shite! It's got a certain ring to it.

by **Chiaroscuro** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:05 am

idiot compassion is ignoring the destructive behavior and using demands for compassion to quash any action to limit further abuses. It is bull whether it is in the name of a new agey group or christians who have their young daughters write to murderers and rapists in prision. If one wishes to be compassionate by all means do so and consider this. Is it compassionate to allow someone to continue to cause great harm to others thereby endangering their souls progress? if it is compassionate to confront those who harm themselves such as drug addicts and take action to limit their destructive behavior why is it considered wrong by these idiots to stop abuse of others? now I am not saying sexual abuse is an addiction because it is not but all the same just as you would lock up the alchol when an alcoholic comes to visit it is not wise to let child abusers make friends with your kids.

by **blanc** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:27 am

I feel let down when discussions on this board develop into personal slanging matches tangential to the issues.This subject is the most emotive one. I would be a hypocrite if I said I had never entertained PLAN B, in respect of offenders, in fact when my eyes were opened for the first time I spent about 5 hours every night for many months devising variations on the retribution theme (only way I could get any sleep). You can be sure I've thought of them all. We all have dualities - impossible to resolve inner conflicts. The closer you come to direct experience of extreme evil, the harder it is to retain moral absolutes. I don't think its appropriate to preach forgiveness at victims or their carers. Its too cosy and too smug. In my experience the same people who say "forgive and forget" to victims looking for basic justice go ballistic if their mobile phone is stolen or their home broken into. But there is no practical way in the legal system of being 100 per cent certain in any given case. A long sentence at least gives some window of hope that a wrong conviction will be overturned. A short sentence ensures that a guilty offender will be free to offend again and sends a message to all other covert offenders that their offences are really no big deal. Stefan Kisko was wrongly convicted of the murder of a child in the UK some years ago. Police at the time did not reveal the piece of evidence which would have proved his innocence, and the alibi that he was with his mother at the time was not believed by the jury. He was released a very short time before his death. The case has been re-opened using dna obtained from the original material which was archived. Only problem, many, many accusations of child rape brought by adults who have finally found the courage or way to speak, and many accusations of rape brought by the primary carers of children, are discounted by UK police, with little or no investigation following. That inevitably means that there are many many possible offenders, (any one of whom may have been the murderer in that or any other case) whose personal dna is not on record. I leave out the question marks over the dna process itself - that material can be planted on the victim, and that chimeras exist and we don't yet know in what number. I chose that case as illustration of the point because there are many cases in that area of the country, served by that police force, which have not been pursued - ie its a haven for paedophiles. Following a recommendation on another thread I've just read "People of the Lie" by M. Scott Peck, which argues the case for developing a psychology of evil - to better understand it. The title is helpful - people who do evil, as opposed to those who are sick, go to great lengths to lie and cover up that evil. (One of the reasons why its so hard to be sure you have the right man, unless you are the victim, or very close to the victim) Its not impressive when someone goes for therapy ONLY when he is outed, to escape justice. What does that mean? He has not sought help, he has sought more cover. Just about all of the people who offend are nice men, (sometimes nice women). its the modus operandi.

by **havanagilla** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:58 am

I hope I didn't sidetrack too much from the original post, in bringing in the sensual new age rabbi...but I feel this is related to how we treat "crime and punishment" and more so in relation to sex offenses, pedophilia and other things that happen in the dark, in privacy and under "trust relations". -- The various spiritual systems have different concepts on crime and punishment, some are more focused on forgiveness and other on retribution. In all these cases, it is extremely important to examine how the establishment itself (the spiritual leadership) is treating ITS OWN. Not coincidentally, we see increased interest in priest pedo in the catholic church, and we have the same issue in Israel/Jewish congregations, and the "new age" community is rampant with mollesting gurus (Rick Ross is a good source). -- The arguments within the Catholic church are important in that they can bring more balance between the preaching, teaching and practice. In Judaism, the official teaching is retributive justice (Eye for an eye...), Jewish law has capital punishment for any sexual deviance but Israel doesn't. HOwever, recently, there are too many schmoosing and mollesting Rabbis and more so "faith healers" (let me get that demon from you vagina...). Suddenly, all those hell and fire rabbis, are advising "forgiveness and compassion" to their colleagues... I am not sure I believe in "energies" but if the head is rotten, the whole body follows, and by head, I mean those who set example. I thought the new age rabbi was a good example how hard it is for spiritual communities to get rid of perverts if they bring in fame, money, charm, brilliance...and so, the corruption begins this way. -- If any sex offender should get the gallows its one of those sanctimonious holy figures, but then I am truly against death penalty because no doubt in our corrupt world, it will be used to execute the next Rosenbergs for being too lefty on something. Its easy to frame anything on anyone these days. -- One issue I was trying to grapple with years ago is a jewish law rule, pertaining to females who were mollested/raped as minors. If a girl was mollested even at age 1 year old, she cannot marry a priest, because she is "disqualified" somehow, impure. these are the kind of basic rules that need to be discussed in terms of culture and biases. I asked someone how come a baby is held "in consent" and he said that in a system of "incarnations" etc., nothing happens by coincidence and this is the "correction of Eve" who enticed the snake into having anal sex. (ahm...). - So, perhaps those arguing here about catholicism can point to the doctrinal issues, rather than resorting to namecalling. The issue is relevant, IMHHHHO.

by **AnnaLivia** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:49 am

While I was in the garden yesterday, the children were at play on the elementary school playground that’s across the street from my house. You can feel their energy in the sounds they make; giggles and laughter and shrieks of delight, dares and races and cheering and jeers, swings creaking and balls bouncing, and lots of hollers for friends to come here… …and as I pulled weeds, i gradually became conscious that a sort of “chant” had been running through my head for a few minutes, and that I was working at the pace of its rythym. I was rather surprised to realize it. I had been conscious of listening to the childrenoise, and thinking about the baby girl in this case in canada, nothing more. (I was wishing and willing and picturing, her having the same childfun freedom and happiness as those other kids, so much of it that it might crowd out the terrible things done to her previously.) (Yeah, hope dies hard.) The quiet chant went like this: “I pull these weeds so the good things can grow. I pull these weeds so the good things can grow. I pull these weeds so the good things can grow…” I think it’s possible that that was The Mothermind at work. (where ya been, Babe? Good to hear from you…) I want to reflect on what Shee meant, really, by ‘weed’. Is it the man? The crime? The overzealous pursuit of justice? Something in me? So, I’ll be trying to sort that for myself, but I sure do think it’s fair and important to ask “just how much of an invitation to destroy lives and trust DO we engrave, by not imposing severe sentences on these sorry excuses for a human?” I really appreciate this discussion, guys. Thanks. In the mean time, I’ve written a note and a couple questions for god, though I’m not holding my breath ‘til Shee answers me personally. Goes like this: Listen up, you Rascule…Would it have killed you to make life just a little fucking easier? You are all there is and all of us. You’re not easy to understand. You are intersection, plus and minus parallel, multiplied – yeah, I get it, I get it. And I know evil exists by necessity, so we can have and recognize good. But, since you, Existence, are all, everything, and only, couldn’t you have devised a way to create imperfect finity out of perfect infinity (Your original sin), besides using the alchemy of opposites? ‘Cause god? It really really sucks sometimes…this necessariness of opposites. It frequently makes our heads want to explode. I think you oughta think twice next time about how to go about it, when you feel like creating there, Creator. This species is about to blow ourselves and our globe to smithereenies, God, so there’s going to be some prime territory left in space, in which i know you'll rebuild. Next time, maybe not so much with the opposites thingee, eh? Yours in love and frustration, Anna Livia Plurabelle

by **Gouda** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:02 am

"O Children" Pass me that lovely little gun My dear, my darting one The cleaners are coming, one by one You don't even want to let them start They are knocking now upon your door They measure the room, they know the score They're mopping up the butcher's floor Of your broken little hearts O children Forgive us now for what we've done It started out as a bit of fun Here, take these before we run away The keys to the gulag O children Lift up your voice, lift up your voice Children Rejoice, rejoice Here comes Frank and poor old Jim They're gathering round with all my friends We're older now, the light is dim And you are only just beginning O children We have the answer to all your fears It's short, it's simple, it's crystal dear It's round about, it's somewhere here Lost amongst our winnings O children Lift up your voice, lift up your voice Children Rejoice, rejoice The cleaners have done their job on you They're hip to it, man, they're in the groove They've hosed you down, you're good as new They're lining up to inspect you O children Poor old Jim's white as a ghost He's found the answer that was lost We're all weeping now, weeping because There ain't nothing we can do to protect you O children Lift up your voice, lift up your voice Children Rejoice, rejoice Hey little train! We are all jumping on The train that goes to the Kingdom We're happy, Ma, we're having fun And the train ain't even left the station Hey, little train! Wait for me! I once was blind but now I see Have you left a seat for me? Is that such a stretch of the imagination? Hey little train! Wait for me! I was held in chains but now I'm free I'm hanging in there, don't you see In this process of elimination Hey little train! We are all jumping on The train that goes to the Kingdom We're happy, Ma, we're having fun It's beyond my wildest expectation Hey little train! We are all jumping on The train that goes to the Kingdom We're happy, Ma, we're having fun And the train ain't even left the station *** NICK CAVE & THE BAD SEEDS from The Lyre of Orpheus (2004)

by **blanc** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:58 am

Hava, you make a very important point about the scapegaoting of the victims, and how this is in tablets of stone in different religious communities - the "she made me do it" meme. And the different standards applied to "good" men, men of the cloth, aristocrats, rulers, etc. the "overlook their little weaknesses" message, which reinforces their position rather than undermining it. AnnaLivia - you do not pursue justice too thoroughly, you react with understandable revulsion and horror to revolting and horrible crimes and those who CHOOSE to perpetrate them. The message of light sentences is all too clear, it says no big deal. Sentences should be very long - long enough for therapy if this is possible. long enough to keep them of of society. long enough to allow appeals if there has been a miscarriage of justice. To those worried about the cost of justice - and I think this is a big reason why cases are not pursued, look at the costs of no justice. Offenders don't offend once and then think better of it, they don't stop until they are stopped. The forgive and forget brigade seem to think that rape and torture in infancy is something that can just be put aside with a bit of will power and common sense. Not so. Its a life sentence. They should work with survivors and learn .

Pedophile's sentence too harsh, judge rules

it's a mighty good and

Re: it's a mighty good and

Re: if you happen to sex offend, better have good friends

Re: if you happen to sex offend, better have good friends

he was guilty

Re: he was guilty

"endless catholic bloodlust"

Re: "endless catholic bloodlust"

what's a gob shite?

Idiot Compassion

disappointment

Re: spirituality, religion and criminal justice

Re: spirituality, religion and criminal justice

Re: spirituality, religion and criminal justice

doctrinal scapegoating/pursuit of justice

Who is online