It was the babysitter???

by **biaothanatoi** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:09 am

I wasn't involved to that extent - mostly reading, online stuff. The extent of my participation was fortnightly meetings at the local pub in England. These days, Wicca is pretty much content-free, a collection of symbols and practices that people put together however they want. So there are lots of puddles that you can splash around in, and that's what most people do. So, in short, nope, I was never in a cult. The BDSM/ritual sex was the stuff I observed (as in: people talked about what they had done/were going to do) and thought was really weird. But that wasn't why I left - I left because there were too many lies, too much talk about "feel, don't think", too much "don't ask, just go along with it". As I said, it's a cultic atmosphere rather then a cult per se. And, just to clarify, my decision to go was made before I ever knew about ritual abuse or the occult aspects of my friends exploitation.

by **Dreams End** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:26 am

There was other nonpersonal stuff in this post...but I'm to lazy to pick and choose.

by **blanc** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:31 am

When I wrote that it sounds r.a., I did not mean to be very prescriptive, only that the sum total of all these things don't sound like an occasional, single perpetrator abuse set up. It doesn't lead anywhere until Debbie herself can remember. Somewhere in her mind, she will definitely know, and no-one can safely 'prompt' that remembering. I know what you mean about scepticism about r.a. - I came to know it through personal experience, and since the first apocalyptic realisations, tried to fill in the gaps of my knowledge - but never really approaching it in as thorough, organised, well-filed way as you DE or Biao. I am part of a set up of people who try to help survivors, and there are fifty or so cases concerned. Only a few weeks ago, the subject of Wicca came up, because it was involved in one case, which I cannot give Avalon details of because it is both the subject of a police investigation and sub judice in a private case ; and secondly because it is involved in another case, where the survivor is quite ill, and the family of the survivor has been threatened, and again there is a police investigation in progress. In a third case, no onger active because the survivor is doing well, there is historic evidence of involvement of Wicca. I have capitalised Wicca according to Avalon's request, but tend to think that it would not be a bad convention to adopt if when referring to a religion which had been distorted or aborted from its primary text one used a lower case letter. It gets complicated because religious groups contain perpetrators and non perpetrators quite often, naturally the non perpetrators being absolutley sure that nothing nasty could possibly be going on. Wiccan's who have a knee jerk reaction to information or accusations that their religion has involvement with crime in some cases merely serve as gatekeepers - all be it unconsciously. Same goes for any other group, religious, professional, race, nation - who shut their ears to the info out there.

by **blanc** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:02 am

just to add that in neither of the ongoing investigations do I hold out much hope of prosecution - and this is entirely typical. In one the perps selected already very vulnerable children, whose testimony would not be likely to be accepted because of their capacities, and in the other, the person concerned is suffering from a mental illness now as a relult of the abuse, and this also generally rules out being able to testify. There is an interesting paper btw from Psychiatry (Winter 2001) entitled "The contribution of Early Traumatic Events to Schizophrenia in Some Patients: A Traumagenic Neurodevelopmental Model", which re-inforces the work already posted about from Manchester Uniresearcher Paul Hammersley

by **biaothanatoi** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:03 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Interesting stuff. Be interested in your sources on gnostic practices.<hr></blockquote> As you probably know, there are a variety of reports on Gnostic practices from that era, and some are polemical. We have no way of verifying the basis of historical documents from two thousands years ago, but what the Gnostics were accused of doing has an ethnographic precedent in the ritual paedophilia/sacrifices of the Bacchic cults. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The "icky" stuff that I know about came from descriptions by their enemies...much like Caesar's description of the Druid's.<hr></blockquote> It's not that ritual abuse doesn't get caught up in rhetorical/theological spats, it does - then and now. However, we can't presuem that historical allegations of ritual abuse are only rhetorical spats. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Also, of course, and ironically, tales of "cannibalism" and "drinking of blood" were told of early Christians...because...that's what they do at Mass.<hr></blockquote> Yup, the pagan apologists made hay with all that. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Yes, if Inquisitors could think it up, then so could actual practitioners...but we can't leave out the political purpose of the Inquisition.<hr></blockquote> Yup, but the fact that something is alleged in a political context does not mean it is only political hype. It just means the claimsmaker has a specific motivation beyond simple truth-telling ... but that doesn't mean they are lying. Doesn't mean they are telling the truth, either! But too often in these debates an implicit relation is drawn between the (usually presumed) motivation of the speaker and the factual basis of their claims, when there is no such relationship. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>1. To what extent does the stereotype of the witch's sabbath as "discovered" by the Inquisitors resemble actual practice of people?<hr></blockquote> Well, it resembles actual RA practices now. Either people adopted these practices after the Inquisitors "invented" them and they have persisted for hundreds of years, or the Inquisitor's accounts of witchcraft had some basis in fact. And we have to ask: If accounts of the "Sabbath" garnered by the Inquisitors were false, how is it that they appear to include descriptions of dissociation and traumatic amnesia? Such concepts didn't exist at the time, but we have accounts of them as experiences - in the same sequence as they are experienced by ritual abuse victims today. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>2. How widespread and coordinated was this?<hr></blockquote> The question on prevalence is important, but as for "coordinated" ... ? I think RA/Satanism is part of a subculture like any other. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>It is, of course, not important to the day to day survival of an RA victim whether it goes back this far, but I've not been impressed with the claims of such continuity...don't even know if that's your perspective.<hr></blockquote> You mean the stuff about pre-Christian gods to the Gnostics to the Templars etc? Absolutely not. I think it's out and out bullshit that could only be written by people with no training in research and no grasp of history whatsoever. I don't agree with "ritual abuse" in the way it's usually framed but I use it as a short-hand, which can be confusing. People look for big explanations of RA because the ritualistic behaviour seems so bizarre to them, but I don't think RA is bizarre. Ritual is an expression of cultures and subcultures - the Boy Scouts have rituals, why wouldn't some perpetrator groups? The real question we need to ask ourselves is "What is the purpose of ritualistic activity in organised child sexual exploitation? What do these ritual acts mean? What are they a marker of? What is the difference between ritualistic perpetrator groups and non-ritualistic perpetrator groups?" All this crap about the Illuminati and historical conspiracies and world domination is just that - crap. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I think, further, that at times I'm being manipulated by Debbie...or parts of her.<hr></blockquote> If you can get your hands on it, Colin Ross wrote a book of case studies on multiple personality disorder called "The Osiris Complex". You might find it useful. He talks about his experience of manipulation with MPD patients in very empathic and understanding terms. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>My own therapist doesn't know much about DID but advises me along the lines of dealing with borderline personality disorder.<hr></blockquote> They are basically right, but BPD has two functions (a) It describes the problems that some trauma survivors have with relationships and interpersonal skills while (b) obscuring the traumatic origin of their symptoms and implying little capacity for healing. The first bit is useful, but the second - basically BPD can become a dumping ground for difficult clients. I think it's James Noblitt who suggests that many clients diagnosed with BPD are having trouble with internal voices and representations, and some may actually have MPD. It's telling that one of the most effective treatments for BPD is Dialectic Behavioural Therapy, the basis for which is that people with BPD are struggling with contradictory internal urges/voices.

by **blanc** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:56 am

One purpose is that it works. Doing the same things, which one has done before and found to work, isn't unusual. It binds the perp group and isolates the victim, creating at same time a dependence in that victim on the abuser group for the only human interaction they know. Its like a teaching/learning experience, people are changed by going through it and moulded into roles. (teaching learning which is closer to the drill seargent than the enlightened helper to discovery we'd ideally want our children to meet in their classrooms.)Ritual objects, I think, serve as memoranda, to mark events and carry the significance of those events. Hence my lack of enthusiasm for survivors being exposed to even benignly intentioned rituals which use ceremonial daggers, hooded robes, and circles in fields,woods, gardens. A useful side effect of using ritual objects is that it feeds the debunkers with a ready 'proof' that survivors are fantasists, or just plain mad.

by **Dreams End** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:16 pm

I went to a bookstore today and found two books on dbt. One was a sort of text about using it in the treatment of borderline personality disorder and the other a more popular treatment (using Snow White characters as metaphors...(??)_ Anyway, what was fascinating was that neither had ANY mention of DID. ONe mentioned dissociative states, but that was it. How really strange. Both books accept the studies that show around 75% of BPD folks have been sexually abused. And what the two have in common is so striking. It may be that in those circles DID isn't considered a "real" diagnosis? My own therapist, as I said, advises me in terms of dealing with a bpd loved one as he admits he doesn't "know much" about DID...maybe a polite way to say he's skeptical. But the advice is still good and applies much of the time. (Mainly about maintaining my own boundaries, etc.) If you look at difficulty "regulating" emotional responses in the face of "triggers" (a word that is used with bpd) and the idea of lack of stability in affect (actually described in terms of looking like "different people" at times in these books, it's very similar. The differences are there too, of course as somehow DID folks have split these states off into more independent states that have their own memories, traits, etc. Both books had a good view on what I called "manipulation"..that this implies deliberate intent on the part of the "manipulator" and usually a bpd or aspect of someone with DID is simply reacting to various internal crises...often in maladaptive ways but not, I imagine, often with the expressed intent of manipulating others. Still...lots of discernment needed in relationship with someone in either of these categories.

by **biaothanatoi** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:45 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I went to a bookstore today and found two books on dbt.<hr></blockquote> It's only been around since the mid-90s. Despite the BPD connection (and I think BPD is a crock of shit diagnosis) I have to say I think DBT is fantastic. It's pretty much skills-based - trying to get people to relearn the life/relationships skills that trauma has taken away. It accepts that this group of people have big problems with attachment and so it's difficult for them to stay in therapy, trust their therapist, etc. Instead of blaming them for that, DBT is a framework that provides them with the support they need to complete psychotherapy and skills training. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>It may be that in those circles DID isn't considered a "real" diagnosis?<hr></blockquote> I think it's more that DID challenges the fundamental tenets of psychology and psychiatry. For many psychs, understanding DID means re-evaluating most of what they think professionall (and personally). <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Still...lots of discernment needed in relationship with someone in either of these categories.<hr></blockquote> With DID, "BPD", etc - with anyone that's survived sadism and betrayal - my advice would be: Expect to be manipulated. Emotional coercion is normal to survivors - firstly because that's what was done to them, and secondly, because they were never allowed to ask for what they want/needed directlyk (or were told they didn't deserve it) so they developed other, less direct ways of getting things they need. This type of manipulation can be really difficult to navigate in close relationships with survivors, because the survivor is usually not doing it deliberately. They really are in need. The problem is often that they don't understand why they feel the way they do, and so they try to make it better the "wrong" way, which doesn't answer the original need in the first place, and so the feeling starts spiralling etc. Behind it all is a terrified person who may not have the skills or experience to regulate their emotions or bring order to their social world. Which is why DBT is so fantastic - it can provide these skills, so that when the survivor has to deal with memories, trauma, etc, they are have a much greater capacity to do so.

by **blanc** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:39 am

that's a really good explanation of manipulation biao, to which I would add the most difficult scenario is when the survivor is manipulating you into providing what ultimately is not of benefit to her/him, but (one suspects) is a programmed response to a programmed need. Frequently, impatiently, I'd be thinking 'you are finsihing off the job the perps did' - ie wrecking self and isolating self

by **havanagilla** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:39 pm

first i want to mention that this thread is very good ! if I didn't mention before, Biao, your vast knowledge from all corners of the field is amazing , interesting and a very rewarding reading for a survivor, but not only I am sure. bravo to you, and i am sure whatever you publishe/research is going to be a "bible" for the subject. so, also if you ever look for info on Israel, where I can be of googlehelp or library etc., feel more than welcome to ask, and if a footnote about israel appears that will be enough of a reward (namely, that the issue happens here as well etc.), but even without it... --- Blanc, i jsut want to add something little about manipulation, self defeating behaviors and isolation. First one, from my own experience. I divide my life between being unaware and UNDER the control of the abusers, AND what came after, namely, gradualy awakening which never ends, so it seems. In the first period I can describe myself as friendly, too friendly, i had many contacts and connections, but I was totally isolated from myself therefore from any person I met. actually, i was considered manipulative then, more than now, and I do remember those uncontrolled behaviors because i was not "there" at all. but was very angry, needy, scared. Since my awareness began to what I am really experiencing, that's about a decade ago, I have become a very unsocial person, almost recluse, however I am more in touch with myself. isolation is almost natural after being through such huge betrayals, and frankly now I suspect everyone, because the people who hurt me then, also seemed nice and kosher, so how should i know, and in fact when I do open up i ALWAYS as a rule find creeps with ulterior agenda, or perhaps that's life. But on a more practical level. People with history of MC (quite sure RA too) are controlled for all eternity, unless very lucky. some are slightly monitored only to make sure they don't "do anything foolish" with the information some are totally controlled even if not actively exploited. MC victims for sure are controlled in social and even therapeutic connections, since the gov can do that. and does. I have had numerous situations when I hooked up with good people and "things happened", such as in one case the guy's house was ransacked, his car stolen and then wrecked and we both felt it was connected, certainly it puts a strain on the relatoinship and usually I am the first to quit, feeling guilty for bringing this crap to an innocent and good person. such things happened many times, to the point that I don't try anymore to break the blockade so to speak. Also, once a good person is found sometimes the tendency is to say everything too fast, and a person who is not familiar with this crap runs for their life, usually thinking this is sign of madness, and if not, they are scared. -- Last, but NOT least. Saying this is "self defeating" is not accurate and assumes choice. I think we should look at programming damage as near biological if not outright biological, namely the pavlovian reaction and more. A native american healer who saw me for a few sessions, said I have the signs of someone who was hit by native black magic, which damages what she names the central nervous system and creates a slow or fast mechanism of self destruction. we KNOW now for a fact that the ptb are interested in the taxoplasma for that reason (it creates a biological defect causeing the obstruction of natural defense mechanisms from enemies) and the parasites and worms that cause suicide in mammals and insects. So we certainly can point to a biological process of what you will name "self defeating behvior" or BDP, or stockholm syndrome of battered wife syndrome. I doubt this is "psychology anymore. naturally it is reinforced by the perps at any chance they have, so, you have a very secure, perpetuating and biological process. In order to stop it, you must do - 1. create safety (enormous challenge for MC victims, if possible at all). 2. think up biological "off setting" maybe food, additives, certain physical activities or massages, water therapy etc., seeing it more as cancer, or AIDS, than "choice" of a screwed up person (that too, of course is true).

by **blanc** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:12 pm

That is pretty interesting Havanagilla. I tried to indicate what it appears like from the outside, looking at that set of self destructive behaviours ( I don't here mean the obvious self destruction of cutting etc, more the bad choices, the false goals etc). You have thrown in a vital piece, the insider pov. It would be good to have a better knowledge of what resources might combat the effects of the prolonged and repeated stress, I wish we had medical researchers on board, but it is left to people to try to work something out.

by **havanagilla** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:31 pm

bad choices...emmm...rings a bell. I can point to more specific "decision making" (bad one) processes, perhaps it resonates with others' experience. 1. not listening to clear "inner voice" guidance. I used to receive very clear inner voice, either in dreams or gut feeling, and act in the contrary. If I am trying to pin point the set of rationalizations or reasons - anxiety that requires immediate relief supersedes any long term or "rational" consideration. the fear is overwhelming and very uncomfortable even physically. 2. in case programming or control is still around, sometimes the manipulation is very sophisticates. for instance, i would get a message, say via email or phone that in fact supports my "good" decision. but since it comes from them, I automatically rebel and do the opposite, so it becomes easy to manipulate towards bad choice, if one wants to. 3. basic death wish is always present which I can equate to lack of "faith" in the old religious sense. namely, years of being in captivity and deprived of anything I ever cared for, creates a deep depression that is never taken care of, and this CAN influence decision making towards a wish that "this is will end the suffering" namely, actually committing a symbolic suicide by delegating the power of decision to the perps, hoping the "will do it" for me. (the death). 4. inability to identify and classify feelings. for example, i might be doing ok, but experience "nostalgia" but cannot brand the feeling correctly and contain it, rather i will act on it, as if the feeling is obliging me to act immediately to satisfy the "nostalgia" and even if the object of longing is away, evil, or just irrelevant. lack of differnetiation between present and past, lack of "future" perception. what judith hermann calls "futurelessness". so this is a constant present in fear, without the epxerience of ever having anything else, some normal contuity where things carry depth, evolve naturally or where efforts carry results and fruit. All this, under group abuse and total control, is never actually developing in a child.

by **blanc** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:57 pm

Hmm - control (not just mc/ra but even 'normal' control freak parenting or spousing,) must logically set up a vipers nest of problems around decision making, even at its most mundane. Is it my idea, or not? How to know. If its not too pesonal, I wondered if you can describe the difference between what you can observe in behaviour in adults/children who haven't had to cope with 'control', and own experience, vis a vis decision making.

by **havanagilla** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:39 pm

i'd say there's a difference bn a mad parent and a web of MC controllers with immense powers to change ones reality. its a matter of how much power your controller has. even in childhood, if its "just" a parent, so, theoreticaly you can approach other adults with some success. As for a "normal" decision making process, I cannot know, can I? but I think it is less "magical" in the sense of making long calculations on how to thwart control...it doesn't look like a chess game, I suppose, but more like a monopoly game :-). Normal decision making will not assume someone is second guessing you so you have to disguise your own thoughts from yourself, for instance, or disguise your decision etc. Also, the imminence of disaster would not be present, i suppose in normal cricumstances, so you don't have a set of choices as in "a or b or death ?" (or rape, or framing, or what not). namely, when decision making is in fact a constant survival process, there is a reversed, defensive thinking (I don't choose what to do, but I am choosing which way is less lethal). And, lastly, I think that "sticking" to a decision, or a choice..that's a major pitfall under Mind control, but perhaps not under controlling parents. Since you learn not to trust your decisions (because many of them were programs) but you do remember your obstinacy or persistence in rationalizing someone else's orders, so that each decision, at some point, may appear suddenly as one of those 'trances' namely, post hypnotic rationalizations. I'd put it this way, once you become aware of the possibility to make you decide something by control, and make you think its your OWN decision, there is a lack of anchor in 'feeling' how a really autonomous decision should be. For me, until now, there is no way I can be sure that a 'decision' is actually mine, so I re-invent the choice continously, and then one day I might be convinced it is a suggestion, and another day, it seems authentic. this is NOT a decision making process, its closer to chaos, or "flipping a coin" to remove the stress. Basically, the stress of decision making is so huge, that I came to a situation when I prefer someone else to decide, which is the biggest pitfall, of course. Or, to just "not live" or minimize the need to choose, by minimizing engagement in life. So, I can decide whether to eat a toast or an apple, and that's that. In a controlled parent situation, I would imagine (as was my case) there is also the crazy parent's voice constantly saying something "so...you did that again, you blew it up...you did this horrible mistake..." as an echo to any decision. -- But most importantly, I beleive, is the lack of validity to your decisions anyway. when you live under terror and constant control, your choices, decisions, wishes, MEAN nothing, on the contrary they might create a challenge for the perps to thwart it, just for the fun of it, or to retain control. So you don't get to make a normal brain/logical connection between 1. your will 2/ reality and possibilities 3/ choices and accountability. Basically, insteat of decisions you have impulsive or compulsive actions, that are usually meant to provide quick release for fear, anger, shame, depression etc. hope that kind of answers that. best that I could come up with right now.

by **blanc** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:58 am

That answer is v. helpful. I became aware in writing answers to DE that I was talking about what I observed but not 'knowing' what I observed, the underlying mechanisms. I hope that by decrypting these processes a bit, it might be possible to try to see ways of counter-acting their effects. Like on a simple level - once it mattered whether you picked apple or toast because it could be a trick, but now either will be ok. Apple and toast are easy of course, but in observing a person going to yet again put herself in danger or difficulties, or being too accepting of someone they should be at least holding back from, finding a key to the inner processes which are interfering with rational actions would be good. The ideal would be for the person herself to be able to 'simplify' decisions, and have ownership of them.

It was the babysitter???

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