Belgium

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:33 am

DE If you read this blogpost and go down the comments about halfway there are some weird references to the name sarah, in case you haven't seen it already. <a href="http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/08/what-do-kids-know.html" target="top">jeffs blog - what-do-kids-know</a>

by **havanagilla** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:05 am

DE, I think you should open a thread on "Sarah"...you've been searching for this issue for a while, why not make it organized. -- RE Biao, Joe, yes, one has to go back to some basic law here, although I appreciate anthropological insights on social practices. There is a huge difference bn a popular, ancient, human custom (if that's the right word) and when a government or in fact "the world gov" adopts it as a governance method. I am not sure the aboriginals you refer to have reached that stage, or maybe they have at some point and not another. -- That's like the difference bn the fact that rape or pedo have always been around AND a situation when Ceasar makes it the law of the land/palace and orders every child to serve as his prey, etc. the Mk phenomenon might have just tapped into existing practices or mingled with them, but the fact that this is an official business and more so, by the Empire or the regime that de facto rules the world, is of importance, can't you see? Or is this just another step in the stareway...breaking the taboo that government should act for the people ? -- I have been vascilating myself about the what came first and who is wagging what, but if I stick to plain reason and the law, i tend to see Mk as more of a problem than you are describing here (not in the way of further demonizing the USA,CIA, just as an observation). -- The CIA might actually be happy with research pointing to RA as "natural human practice"/force majeur, and turning it into anthro, rather than political protest and action, specifically targetting the CIA, or the USA. Also, if aboriginals do it, this may sound like normalizing...the conduct...to some degree, and I am not saying you are doing it. The added I-T is not such quantitative, if you take the holocaust as an anthro comparison, you have again a "practice" (picking on minorities) that has been around with us forever, with the sole addition of modernity and i-t, becoming the hell it was. It is a qualitative addition, and so is MK (scientific, premeditated, planned, official etc.) reinforcing of RA traditions among elites OR commoners.

by **biaothanatoi** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:18 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>There is a feedback loop there. Powerful people live under a privelege. They corrupt the law to serve them more often than not.<hr></blockquote> You don't have to "corrupt the law" to sexually abuse children. Children have no standing before the law - they cannot testify against an adult because, culturally, we presume that children are cognitively inferior to adults (although research does not support this). This imbalance is a cultural prejudice that finds expression in law, rather then a corrupting of the law. Trials like McMartin and Mr Bubbles (RA case in Australia, for those who don't know) collapsed due to the issue of children's testimony - not due to the RA allegations or corruption. The children were not permitted to take the stand in the Mr Bubbles case which is when all charges were withdrawn - despite medical evidence that three of them had been penetrated, two prior convictions by the accused perpetrator, and the perps statement that Satan may have entered him and made him abuse the children. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>It is an interesting strain of human behaviour tho, in that it has to do with power and inflicting stuff on other people. At some point the connection between people and the common empathy between humans must have been damaged to enable it to continue. How could you do that to someone...<hr></blockquote> de Mause's theory is that RA works like a "container" for severely traumatised people - by inflicting pain on others, you reaffirm that you are not the victim anymore, you are in control. I've talked this dynamic through with survivors before - it certainly seems to hold true. All that rage and pain has to go somewhere. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Either that or some people are just plain nasty.<hr></blockquote> I'm sure that's true as well! <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I haven't actually read the stuff I am referring to now -> but i have been told that the postmodern philosopher, Focault, felt that rape was not really a crime.<hr></blockquote> No, that's a complete misrepresentation of his position. He proposed that rape was no different from any other form of physical assault. Feminist theorists have come down either way on this, although it's worth noting that Germaine Greer recently argued the same thing.

by **biaothanatoi** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:39 am

Hi Hav, <blockquote>Quote:<hr>There is a huge difference bn a popular, ancient, human custom (if that's the right word) and when a government or in fact "the world gov" adopts it as a governance method.<hr></blockquote> I want to put this as gently as possible, so please don't think I'm attacking you - but can you see the circular logic you are taking? "RA occurs around the world, therefore there is a sinister world govt, therefore RA occurs around the world." RA and MC are cultural practices. They are the Western version of the "ancient human custom" that you refer to above. They are customs, constructed by our society, our culture, a product of our history. Even the "robot" image that is invoked in MC - it's part of post-WWII popular culture, taken up by quacks and psychos as an inspiration for their crimes. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>the Mk phenomenon might have just tapped into existing practices or mingled with them, but the fact that this is an official business and more so, by the Empire or the regime that de facto rules the world, is of importance, can't you see?<hr></blockquote> I'll give you an example to explain where I think your reasoning is going wrong. Like RA/MC, drug trafficking occurs all over the world. Drug trafficking is a form of organised crime that has corrupted (to every extent) every govt in the world. However, it would be wrong to conclude any of the following: (a) because there is a there is a global drug trade, drug running is organised by a secret world-wide organisation. (b) because people who work for governments are involved in drug running, no government can be trusted? (c) because peopel who work for governments are involved in drug running, governments are running the drug trade? (d) because the CIA has been involved in drug-running, all drug-running can be traced back to the CIA. These arguments don't make sense in the context of drugs, but you seem to be arguing all of them when it comes to RA/MC.

by **havanagilla** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:22 am

Oh, BIao atteckez vous as you please, i do it all the time. I disagree with the comparisons and analogies. first of all i never mentioned "one world government" etc. etc. I mentioned a concrete and very real org called CIA, which exists in reality (proof - it has a website !). Secondly, this organization has been legally implicated in said activity. You have much more evidence for mk than anything else. The assertion that MK is also an anthropological fact, from days immemorial needs to be proved, and it hasn't. (namely, government experimentation in humans for the purpose of subverting the political process by intelligence/military organs of the state/kingdom, using i-t, sexual depravity, and spiritual/religious/ESP phenomenon, AND spreading this all over the vassal countries of said gov). Yes, drugs were always trafficked, and NO, not always (or not trivial) that the strongest empire in the world (with de facto dominance over the entire world, a new fact altogether without historical precedent) is officially doing it and encouraging it all over the world, and at the same time using propaganda to the contrary (as a "police force" for the world) from which it derives some of its domestic power. Not same. And while personally I am not entirely interested in crime (and drugs included) I am very interested in how the CIA is incorporating this trade into its official policies, domestically and abroad. Fascinating subject. Also, I would be interseted to know the range of the effect of the CIA involvement in drug trafficking on the volume of this habit and on its inflitration into gov activity, immunity, development of new drugs etc.. I am not challenging your line of inquiry, i am just saying that it appears to me, without ANY PROOF, that we are looking at a phenomenon that may have been on the margins of human civilizations ALWAYS, and is now becoming POLICY. I think that does make a difference. Re Dutroux, could we speculate on how much the creeps ring would have succeeded in its slimy projects had been strictly criminal anthro activity of pervs and spiritual freaks ? (that is without CIA, without arms dealers, without NATO, without the possibly cooperation bn this ring and mk projects ? if I am looking at myself only - and that's not scientific, i admit, - i would say that immunity has to do with CIA projects involved in this crap, whereas, chances are that even if the king is a pervert and some of his friends were partying with kids, the matter would have been prosecuted differently. We have seen the UK press backing Regina Louf, and demonstrations and the people were doing their job ! and I am sensing much larger forces there, and in fact if that's the case, then Belgium as a state cannot do anything at all. Its too small and insignificant to risk a rift with the masters. I am seeing the same situation with a differnet case here in Israel where it now becomes clear that the essential hurdle to some justice, is coming from the pentagon. And while y'all think israel is super power, there is lack of ability to withstand those pressures. There are some small gradual steps that are hopeful, if we are looking at the change of gov in Italy, and the arrest warrants against CIA agents and some independent investigation of the "black flights/prisons" in Europe etc. But who give a s..t about a few dead girls, if uncle scam doesn't want the secrets out ? it could very well that the official part in this activity was indicental to the main chunk of criminal activity, but those "little" things are calling the shots. In which case, other rings can flourish and become bigger and more immune all over the world. I am not talking about lizards and dynasties, rather politics and a sinister practice in a certain big org, with lots of power and money, standing against girls, women, and their shattered families ? -- Now, I imagine priests were in the business of raping little boys while chanting diabolic mantras, before the CIA, but the question is how much of the current epidemy is induced by "scientific, intel, political' intervention ? we don't know. I say the influence is huge. And I don't think it can be categorized as "human activity" that we have known in history. creepy monarchies were around but they were not the usual case and the do, until now, serve as a subject for investigation and research. (rome since augustus etc.).

by sw » Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:39 am

by **Dreams End** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:54 am

No worries. For awhile blogs were getting filled with automated spam in the comments. Now that people have to enter a code each time they post has made that impossible but for awhile it was ugly. I can't remember which circle of hell is reserved for spammers. I think it's the 8th.

by **blanc** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:04 pm

I sometimes have trouble Joe, understanding the whole drift of your arguments, but if you suggest that perps do feel themselves 'special' and not subject to taboos which apply to the herd, the rest, the non-powerful, then I think you are on the right track. And that is a valid point to consider in comparison with what the anthropologist (Chanon? I remember reading this , his work with Amazon tribe??) observed about his breaking of a taboo. Perps don't think they are powerful because they break taboos but think that taboos are not made for them. The taboos which ra perps are breaking are of a different order to the taboos which re-inforce family structures in tribal regions, or in our own societies. In fact they are not, I think, really taboos as such, they are the elemental structures of our humanity, and as such have served all peoples for all times. IThe crimes committed in Belgium would commonly be called 'inhuman'. People who indulge in these behaviours have turned their backs on their own humanity, on the behaviours which created the human race. they seek to undermine the psychological structures of free will, emotional bonding and empathy. those are essential to humanity. mind control is a contradiction in terms. a controlled mind is not a mind. the proposition that anthropologists would recognise these behaviours is sometimes bandied about in apologist articles in newspapers but I've never seen any solid evidence quoted. such texts in anthro as I have so far come across seem to point in a different direction. these behaviours, rape torture mutilation and murder, are not unique to our time, but yes, hava, I do think that the co-opting of the worst criminal activity against the most helpless and innocent and uninvolved subjects by govt agencies, on the scale it is going on now, is something new and different.

by **blanc** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:10 pm

ps - not an anthropologist, so if anyone has some references to bring in here I'd be interested.

by **HMKGrey** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:24 pm

I tried to get a thread started on this just 2 weeks ago... Belgian police find girls' bodies The bodies of two young stepsisters who disappeared in the eastern city of Liege three weeks ago have been found, Belgian police have confirmed. Chief prosecutor Cedric Visart de Bocarme said Stacy Lemmens, seven, and Nathalie Mahy, 10, were murdered. The girls disappeared during a street party. Their bodies were found 400 metres from where they were last seen. The case has revived Belgians' memories of Marc Dutroux's paedophile killings, which included two girls from Liege. Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt is due to address the nation about the case. A suspect turned himself in to police two weeks ago, but has denied any involvement in the girls' disappearance. It's absurd that it took them more than two weeks to find them when they were so close by Andre Deaelcominette, Liege resident Police discovered the body of Stacy Lemmens under a manhole cover near railway lines at 1100 (0900 GMT). A short while later, Nathalie Mahy's body was discovered some 20 metres from her stepsister. Post-mortem examinations are due to be carried out to determine the girls' causes of death, although Liege prosecutor Anne Bourguinont said: "This can't be considered to be an accident." Residents' questions "The hunt for the culprit or culprits is now a priority and everything possible will be done to shed light on the case as soon as possible," Mr Visart de Bocarme told reporters. He said "everything was done to find them alive", and they had refused to give up hope of a happy outcome. "Unfortunately these hopes are today ruined by the discovery of the deceased, should I say murdered, children," he said. But shocked residents of Liege's Saint Leonard neighbourhood, where the girls disappeared, are asking why it took the police so long to find the bodies. "It's absurd that it took them more than two weeks to find them when they were so close by," Andre Deaelcominette told the French news agency, AFP. The two girls were last spotted in the early hours of the morning near a cafe where their mother and father were attending a street party. Magistrates on Tuesday granted police more time to question the suspect in the case, Abdellah Ait Oud, a convicted paedophile whose girlfriend works at the cafe. Belgium was deeply shocked by the Marc Dutroux paedophile case, in which two girls from Liege disappeared in June 1995. Their bodies were not found until a year later - in Dutroux's garden. In 2004 Dutroux was found guilty of leading a gang that kidnapped and raped six girls in the mid-1990s, leading to the deaths of four of them. Story from BBC NEWS: news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-...124572.stm

by **blanc** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:01 am

the transcript of olenka frankiel(bbc) prog of may 2002 is online at <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/audio-video/programmes/correspondent/transcripts/1944428.txt">news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english...944428.txt</a> this finishes with OF reminding us that more than 2000 children went missing 'last year', 52 cases 'still unresolved' there was high level organised cover up of the paedophile network and its well placed clients. why would it shut down? from <a href="http://perso.respublica.fr/pourlaverite/LIVRES/RLouf-postface.htm">perso.respublica.fr/pourl...stface.htm</a> "Maintenant que le rapport de relecture de l'enquete sur x1 ne revele pas de defaut majeur, il faut que l'enquete se poursuivre, sans quoi il faudrait considerer que les victimes dont Regina parle ont ete sacrifiees au nom d'une pseudo-raison d'Etat" Marc Reisinger or no inquiry (cover-up) = state involvement, victims sacrificed for a pseudo State interest just so

by **chillin** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:15 pm

Michel ("I am the beast of Belgium") Nihoul was paroled in April of this year. He was aquitted on charges of kidnapping, but did time on charges of drug and people smuggling. <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/22/newsid_4761000/4761751.stm">news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/...761751.stm</a>

by **biaothanatoi** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:07 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>first of all i never mentioned "one world government" etc. etc.<hr></blockquote> Don't want to put words in your mouth, but you did talk about "the world gov", "the Empire" and "the regime that de facto rules the world" ... ! <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Secondly, this organization has been legally implicated in said activity. You have much more evidence for mk than anything else.<hr></blockquote> I'm not denying any of these points. What I'm challenging is the causal links that I think you've made between them e.g. CIA ... MK ... CIA=MK .... MK=CIA. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I am not challenging your line of inquiry, i am just saying that it appears to me, without ANY PROOF, that we are looking at a phenomenon that may have been on the margins of human civilizations ALWAYS, and is now becoming POLICY.<hr></blockquote> And I'm suggesting that "policy" and "governance" are cultural practices like anything else.

by **LilyPatToo** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:38 pm

I'm a newcomer here and may have missed out on previous discussions of this topic, but it seems in post 279 that biaothanatol is saying that the connection between the CIA and MK is not "causal". Personally, I thought that the Church Committee hearings pretty much established that the CIA indeed ran a program of mind control called MK(ULTRA) that consisted of many subprojects. A young Ted Kennedy asked the questions, IIRC, at the hearing and the FOIA documents are available online at a number of sites. I believe I first saw them at The Black Vault site -- <a href="http://www.bvalphaserver.com/content-21.html">www.bvalphaserver.com/content-21.html</a> An outgoing director of the CIA (Helms, I think it was) destroyed tens of thousands of documents about CIA mind control programs. But he missed a few boxes sitting in the GAO, so programs could be verified via funding allocations. It's been over a year since I was researching this historical aspect of the CIA's mind control programs, but that was the gist of it. A scientist named Frank Olsen died as a result of one of the MKULTRA LSD tests and his family sued the government over it, so the reality of the CIA's instigation of the program is not in question, as near as I know. Another source of funding that the CIA tapped was the Scottish Rite Masons--I've seen a document reproduced online that specifically names them as funding one of Dr. Ewan Cameron's mind control experiments under MKULTRA. There's also an article here on a lawsuit -- <a href="http://www.arcticbeacon.citymaker.com/articles/article/1518131/39108.htm">www.arcticbeacon.citymake.../39108.htm</a> -- brought by Canadian victims of the program. While the CIA is very unlikely to be the only intelligence organization in the world that has funded mind control programs, they are the only one that I know of that has been conclusively linked to them. If anyone has links to online information linking other governments to MK-like programs, I'd be interested in reading them--particularly the UK and Israel. LilyPat

by **biaothanatoi** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:42 am

Hi Lily, Yup, we know about MKULTRA. My point was that ritual abuse existed before then, and today it is practiced in places (eg Ghana, Jamaica, Germany, Russia) that suggest that ritual abuse in the modern world cannot all be traced back to MK. Regarding other mind control projects, the Canadian government colluded with the CIA in experimentation on Canadian citizens (Ewan Cameron, etc). There was a related controversy in Australia surrounding the Chelmsford Hospital's "deep sleep" therapy in the 60s and 70s. Cameron's techniques were applied - 26 patients died in 15 years, but with only perfunctory investigations by the authorities. There were rumours of CIA funding but nothing was proven. B

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