Belgium

by **LilyPatToo** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:22 pm

I'm so glad you posted, Project Willow--havanagilla (I think) had mentioned you and I've come across your posts in the archived section too. There really aren't a lot of us around, from what I've seen thus far, so people seem to exhibit a tendency to back away from us in when we show up in what would otherwise be a cooly intellectual discussion of aspects that we've lived. Of course, that's preferable to being scorned and invalidated, which has also happened to me. That stings. The fact that there ARE a few of us around is encouraging to me, though. Jeff is dealing with subject matter that generally goes unheard, so I'm hopeful that as more people find his blog, more of us will show up here. hananagilla, I've been aware of that unconscious, reflexive sorting that goes on when anyone says they're a survivor of systematic, sometimes government-sponsored, abuse. And I've thanked my lucky stars that I turned out to be an artist, too! It's a built-in excuse that I use when necessary. I was also appalled by a comment that followed one of Jeff's interviews with Kathleen Sullivan--someone said they disbelieved Cathy O'Brien "because she wasn't gorgeous enough to be a Presidential model"--! As Sue Ford said, on days when she looked great, people said she couldn't possibly have endured the abuse she remembered. And on days when she looked like hell, they said she wasn't pretty enough have been pimped to heads of state...[sigh] There are other reasons to disbelive O'Brien. Or Sullivan. OR me! But ultimately, we're just *people* who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, when you get right down to it. Some of us are smart, some are pretty, but all were exploited by people with power over us and THAT should be what's addressed when we're questioned. I have a particular interest in this Belgian case, since I lived near there for a year and spent a lot of time there in a highly dissociated state. There is serious evil going on in the lovely little Benelux countries and this is the first place where I've seen it discussed. LilyPat

by **havanagilla** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:43 pm

The attack on lebanon brings back the issues raised in the past here, as to the connection if at all between Sharon's failed indictment and dutroux. I was wondering if anyone ever heard of some Falangist connections to Belgium mess, since Sharon began his ascend, with the friendly ties to arch killers/criminals like Elie Hubaika etc., and there have been some posts here about the "lebanese mafia" connection, re sex rings and drugs. (can't remember where). The sexual harassment charges against the israeli president Katzav are now developing into something else - namely, did Sharon ask a certain editor of a certain newspaper to suppress testimony of sex harassment by Katzav, in order to facilitate this appointment (it was "his" guy against Peres). Which brought back this issue to mind. -- Which brings me to think about the impending trial, scheduled for next month, of the AIPAC guys, and any possible "deals" such as Israel enhancing the Bush agenda for a "reduced" charges or some cover up, in those trials ?

by **havanagilla** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:20 pm

I browsed mcgowan's excellent pedo series and found one mention of lebanon, that the dissected bodies of the girls were found in the freezer of a lebanese restaurant. was there any legal meaning to this finding ? (namely, connecting the owners to the crime, or was it just a random location ?). -- on edit, lilp i just noticed your post. well, yes, i guess one should be thankful for any public forum that does not debunk MC as a living condition for many people. The lack of agency, imputed on victims of prolonged gory abuse, reminds me of the condition of holocaust survivors in Israel. everyone "researches" them, but they are somehow discounted or spoken "over their heads", even (or mostly) re the holocaust and their own experiences. Namely, the issue is appropriated but without "presence", or intimacy, real intimacy with the situation. I suppose it is a defence mechanism for people, but it is also self defeating for society. As for looks and sex crimes - I can attest that my "looks" has had like two modalities (this can be part of the program). Namely, while "on mission" I did have a certain charm, which might have been induced with hormones, and of course clothes and general grooming and weight ! (there is skinny me and chubby me). While I am "off", and not "glamorous" or dribbling pheromones, I am ok kind of, I am not a "looker", cause I don't really invest a lot in clothes, barbers etc. I have seen same with monica lewinsky, which led me in the past to speculate she was used (but that might have been totally wrong, just a thought). She had that "glamour" in the photos during her prime time, and then later she looked very much like the girl next door, a bit chubby and ordinary. This in fact could be a feature of slaves. -- Art...i have been around that issue of "solution", and I have a resistant because i feel this is expected of me (rebellious ? perhaps), namely, that a "path of honor" for all parties would be for me to accept this solution for retirement (the project "guinea pigs in residence" sorry for cynicism). I have a few talents in that department, but not sure this is a choice I would make now, independently. trying to dip in to what my original, uncontaminated "self" was (that's speculation), has to do with music, and I feel that i was robbed of it. In fact my musicial talents were part and parcel of the "seduction process" or my "seductress role" (I play the piano above the average, and during "hype times", i can reach near pro classical performer). I cannot even LOOK at the piano now, so triggering it is. I can't bring myself to use anything that was used for my "mask", even if those were my "frotees", such as piano, law, even the color of my hair, I feel comfortable with a color that is not my original color (because it allows me to feel detached from my self image as a puppet on a string). -- I am trying to find a new me, i know its ridiculous, but anything that reminds me of "them", disgusts me about myself. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=havanagilla>havanagilla</A> at: 7/15/06 4:35 pm

by **Dreams End** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:54 pm

This is the most detailed thread about personal experiences we've ever had. Many threads have been rather vague generalities and I just figured people didn't want to/couldn't talk about things in more detail. I think it's really helpful as then people can start to say, "Oh...THAT behavior or pattern makes sense now." I'd love to hear more about specifics...specific words or phrases that seem to be common to programming (talking about deliberate programming at the moment so more MC related.) Someone mentioned common alter names, (most of my own wife's alters either named themselves or were given names to match function or description...i.e. softspoken child became "Wisper"). I'd be interested to hear more about that. Not looking for shocking or triggering details but really just curious. I keep hearing about Oz symbolism but the only piece I ever saw was a long rambling one by Springmeier that was an interpretation (silly, in my view). "Auntie Em = Madame Blavatsky." Even if that's true, that doesn't really help. (Baum was a Rosicrucian so I'm not saying it couldn't be true.) But HOW is it used. What is the significance of one child alter in my wife's system of this: One child alter said she can go to Oz (obsessed with the books...we have nearly all of them handed down from her mom) when the phrase "there's no place like Oz" is uttered. I tried it...didnt' work. She said she had to be asleep first. She said she wasn't supposed to tell anyone about it. When she goes...she doesn't go and play with Dorothy or anyone else...she only goes to one place... a garden in the Emerald City and is only visited by the Cowardly Lion. I imagine if this sort of detail were widely known, you'd get more charges of "contaminated memories" and maybe even would contaminate memories. But it's these little idiosyncratic details that are the most telling. "Missing time" or a fixation on the moon seem common enough...but if someone else out there had stories about going to Oz to visit the Cowardly Lion.... Obviously if the techniques of MC have been spread out among all kinds of folks then dissimilarities would quickly emerge. I'd also be interested (really, this isn't morbid fascination...it's a real attempt to make some sense of all this) in exactly how relationships between military bases, say, and parents work. Is there a typical approach? Do the bad guys come and take an already hypnotized/triggered child? Do they do the triggering? I ask because of my wife's "blanket people" with the military style blanket who put her into a catatonic state (which can be a beneficial service these days). What about the relations between occult stuff and military. I've seen no evidence that Debbie's family was into the occult and much of her pattern looks more like MC kinda stuff (if it's not just a natural response to childhood trauma). But the occult stuff is very central. Her worst and bloodiest cutting on her leg was a pentagram (maybe just seen as protection). Do military folks incorporate this stuff into what they do? Is it simply a matter of their grabbing kids in these RA circles since there is a ready supply? Is anyone doing any kind of survey to see what military bases are involved? Wright Patterson? I know generalizations don't always work, but these individual stories and details are so informative. They've been lacking before. Sorry to focus on myself but this thread is a little "goldmine" of info.

by **biaothanatoi** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:37 pm

Hi PW, <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The intent of my post was to outline the source of the desire to perpetrate. <hr></blockquote> I agree with you on this - or, at least, I've seen this in action to some extent. At the same time, we can acknowledge the diversity of groups and perps that participate in RA - no reason for one theory to cover them all. But I was talking to my friend last year when there was a lot of pressure on her to "become" a perp - they wanted her to start initiating, etc - and she talked the urge to hurt others and where it came from - the chance to externalise all the pain, all the trauma, all the helplessness.

by **Project Willow** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:56 pm

Hi Biao, I understand about your friend. In mc that's actually how they train assassin parts. They trained some of us as young kids to compartmentalize our responses to the torture. They knew full well we would be angry, feel pain, and grief. They trained us to put the pain in one place, the rage in another, etc. When it's time to train a perp part, the energy for that part comes from the stored emotion. I have used this training (the storage aspect) to help me survive the numerous traumas over the years. Stopping the pattern of putting the feelings away is something I'm working on very intensely and it is very difficult.

by sw » Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:56 am

by **havanagilla** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:45 am

Aggressor parts...- i sometimes wonder how far did my training reach in terms of "assassin" parts. I don't think I ever killed anyone though. but I wonder, PW, if you have any specific memories about what you call 'assassin programming'. -- I have had a recent (well, couple years back, pretty recent) triggering of cruel parts in me, and since it was post awareness, I was able to look at how it works, in my case. there is definitely a body/physical component that 'wires' infliction of pain or apathy to pain, TO physical well being (enjoyment or just feeling good). i was watching it in me with amazement and some helplessness to control my own thoughts/body just "doing that" while what I call "me" is clearly unhappy with this phenomenon, but also feels very guilty for not being able to stop it. So my construction of this situation is not that its a "part", but that this is the usual hypnosis. But before one is aware of its existence this state of mind can take over a specific time frame, given other factors such as huge stress, fear, or will to please a perp who has power to harm. -- the early training would reinforce physical pleasure when the child exhibits cruelty, or watches cruelty (something like reversed clockwork orange).

by **Project Willow** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:24 am

sw,I too relate to Frodo, ever since I was a child, aged 14 I first read the trilogy and have been transfixed by it since. I wonder sometimes if it contains triggers as my connection to it is so deep. Tolkein got Gollum right, the character is psychologically accurate. Hava, I am so disturbed by my perp parts, but I must love and integrate them to get well. I have this incite into perp behavior becuase the mechanisms were set up in me, involuntarily, plus reading and witnessing it firsthand. Sorry if not cohereant, too hard to deal with all of it now. PW

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:34 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I have had a recent (well, couple years back, pretty recent) triggering of cruel parts in me, and since it was post awareness, I was able to look at how it works, in my case. there is definitely a body/physical component that 'wires' infliction of pain or apathy to pain, TO physical well being (enjoyment or just feeling good). i was watching it in me with amazement and some helplessness to control my own thoughts/body just "doing that" while what I call "me" is clearly unhappy with this phenomenon, but also feels very guilty for not being able to stop it.<hr></blockquote> I have found that tai chi and chi kung have been good for my body control. Just in general that has improved my coordination even through my 30s. I was a pretty good athlete as a youth, well above average and more than physically capable. So any improvement is actually quite unusual. An understanding of the body from the perspetive of chi flow in Asian culture is v useful, and a teacher who knows this and knows how to get you to understand and feel the chi flow. (A good teacher who understands won't need to use any physical contact, unless it includes the martial aspects of chi, and sparring and strike points, but the theory and conveying the ability to feel it in oneself doesn't require contact.) I found my reconnection to my body's flow and my general control of physicality and emotional and mental responses of any kind was also improved. I have noticed some Chinese spooky types hanging around some tai chi circles in Australia over the years. Especially with one particular old bloke in Sydney. like they were spying on him or keeping an eye on him. that man was amazing tho. I only met him twice, a year apart and casually. Well the second time I hunted around and found him. He was a very different guy the second time around, and the first of these spooky types was around then. So maybe you might want to be careful, but chi work is amazing stuff and I wouldn't be surprised if the creation of alters involves the inducing of specific and directed blockages in Chi flow. But i wouldn't mess around with it, either study it carefully or leave it alone. A little knowledge can be very dangerous.

by **havanagilla** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:50 am

thank for tai chi info. I have had a mixed experience with eastern body work. I did some karate (shotokan) and while my first teacher was a natural healer (a woman with black belt and all), my other two teachers when she quit were a huge damage, they disempowered me, and i decided to let it go. Yoga, is also a mixed blessing to MC victims, namely, its a BLESSING, but the teacher is extremely important. the problem with these powerful methods is that they can cause severe dissociation as well and reinforce splits. So, I agree with you, one has to trust a teacher and also to inquire gently whether that teacher is experienced and willing to work with traumatized people. -- Joe, while you're at it, I had a bit of an uneasy feeling reading one of your posts, where you mentioned that a certain Israeli officer-spokeman looked like a "merchant banker", which i learnt recently is a code name for "dirty jew who drinks the blood of hardworking christians"...or so. While I did share your impression that some of our IDF soldiers indeed look and behave like South African nazi officers, the added mechant banker takes it to whole different realm. I'll level with you, that if I had some merchant banker family, or was one myself, i doubt i'd care what some poster in a losers' board writes about me, but since we are all here, trying to fight the fascists, i'd appreciate some sensitivity. (namely, both to the fact that I am jewish AND most so, that I am on the verge of homelessness as a result of some merchant bankers from my own tribe, which makes my situation rather difficult anyway). I wish I could translate a new poem by someone I like SOOO much, (an Israeli professor of education/sociology who is also a revolutionary and a poet) Sammi Shalom Shitrit. In light of the recent events he wrote a poem called "The Jew Speedy" (with allusion to "The Jew Zuss"), portraying the new israeli, a pilot of cobra hellicopter, a "winner", who spent some years in NY being a Chef de cuisine (so he can claim "conoisseur") and now working as importer of wines. He describes his bloodthirst, his "charm", the way he hugs his wife and the missile in the same way, and how the color of the wine (red) mix with the blood, the noise of the bottle cork shooting same as the rockets from his Cobra...and the charming heartlessness. So, I think others can resonate with your aversion to the typical Israeli captain or colonel, very haughty, very cruel, very precise. Mind you though, that within our internal sociology they are hated by a large segment of israelis as well. So when you invoke the mechant banker, you just put the lid on any attempt to communicate, because it means that for you, there's really no difference between that captain-killer and any jew in the world, or here. Which, actually, reinforces the message of those very same captains you don't like (they are saying that all of the world hates jews anyway, so let's kill'em all any time we can).

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:10 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>"merchant banker", which i learnt recently is a code name for "dirty jew who drinks the blood of hardworking christians"...or so.<hr></blockquote> Not where I come from. Yuppie (non denominational or demographical) scumbag would be what i consider it code for. but i just meant he looked like a merchant banker. Which to me is someone in a pinstripe suit, colourful tie, yuppie wanker business shirt, with a particular haircut, excessive grooming (i am a hairy bastard with dreadlocks and haven't shaved for over 10 years), probably wears frames without medical lens cos glasses look so cool. This guy was actually tall dark, wasp looking with your general superman square jaw and all that actually. And he looked too pale, I mean not sun darkened not necessarily olive skinned... I have never met anyone who has had pale skin like that within 2 months of being in Israel (although admittedly thats a sample size of about <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"> . Doesn't matter if you are blond blue eyed and from sweden, you will tan a little. And in fact to my mind merchant banker conjures a WASP heritage, with connections to old British aris crocracy. And mindless twerps in expensive cars with no soul. Like the entire cast of American Psycho. They are from all races and the products and high priests of mindless consumerism privatisation and the worship of emptiness. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>namely, both to the fact that I am jewish AND most so, that I am on the verge of homelessness as a result of some merchant bankers from my own tribe, which makes my situation rather difficult anyway<hr></blockquote> Ever seen that episode of South park where Chef thinks the kids are racist cos they like the old South park flag? I don't get with that "evil Jews are money hungry scum" and "jew bankers rule the world" stuff, although there MAY be some truth to some of the second stereotype. In my life its been "evil people with money/power are money hungry scum". The south african connection is a bit weird and scary tho. BTW one of my best mates is "a Jew". He is a baker, we play football together, he like me lived in the western suburbs of Melbourne, and came from the "wrong side of the tracks". I have known 2 of his kids all their short lives. we were dancing around my living room screaming our heads off and cheering after 12 beers each at 3 in the morning the other week as Australia scored its first ever woorld cup finals goal. You may not appreciate this, but as keen footy heads such a moment was a once in a lifetime event. I am glad i shared it with him. We were crying in each others arms after losing a grand final a few years back. Thats why this is just so far wrong <blockquote>Quote:<hr>So when you invoke the mechant banker, you just put the lid on any attempt to communicate, because it means that for you, there's really no difference between that captain-killer and any jew in the world, or here.<hr></blockquote> I don't know many merchant bankers with tattoos on their head, and more scars than me on their face. But I know jews that do and would never associate them (well him) with the sort "captain-killer" type you refer too. They are something that all cultures vomit up unfortunately.

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:19 am

BTW About my Jewish mate Achmed (obviously NOT his real name). We regularly say things like: A: Come on you black C##t.* get it together, bloody monkeys... No wonder you can't read or write. J: Well if you'd stayed in that fucking gas chamber where you belonged you''d be black too, instead of jealous. And various similar grossly offensively comments back and forward all day. neither of us are racist, well no more racist than anyone else on the planet. And if I heard someone say that to my friend and actually mean it ... well i doubt I'd have the time to but I would probably punch the person who said it, without thinking. There are few people in the world who i really trust and would want at my side if I was really in trouble. but he's one of them. *ED BTW I have put other people in hospital for using those words. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=joehillshoist>Joe Hillshoist</A> at: 7/16/06 6:19 pm

by **LilyPatToo** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:05 pm

I'm glad to know the hidden meaning of the term "merchant banker" to Jews, since my (half WASP/half Irish Catholic/current Wiccan) take on it was exactly the same as Joe's. My (secular) Jewish husband is off river rafting, so I can't ask him if US Jews see it the same way, unfortunately, but I'll ask him when he gets home. I know folks rail against so-called political correctness, but I for one am not comfortable with even unconsciously insulting anyone...well, except for obnoxious elite types<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> A dozen years ago, I "met" one of my assassin alters when I wrote a science fiction novel using her as a main character. Of course, back then I had no idea I was a multiple, so to me she was just a vividly alive character who lived in my head. And since I have had a bunch of them in my head all my life and always written fiction about them, I assumed all writers were similar...until I got around to asking one of my writer friends and they said Definitely not! I call her "Em" and she's surfaced a couple of times when I was in physical danger and scared the daylights out of me. But she got the job done each time and sent the aggressor packing. With injuries. Given that I'm just a couple inches over 5 feet tall and very slight, with zero martial arts training, that surprised them, which gave me--or Em, I should say--an edge each time. During the course of writing the book, she had a tendency to take over any scenes with conflict in them. It was like spirit channeling must feel like, except that the extreme violence and gore were really horrifying to read afterward. After I learned that I was a multiple, I had a series of odd-feeling dreams that seem to have been alters introducing themselves. And by far the strangest of those was a dream of being a human-sized bee--an Apis mellifera--a honeybee. I was lying on an exam table and a scientist wearing a white coat was standing beside me with his hand on my thorax, talking about me to someone I couldn't see. I was crying and begging him to euthanize me. I felt that I was a monstrosity and knew that if I was allowed to live, an Arab man was going to die, since I'd been created specifically to murder him. Then there was a time-lapse and I was elsewhere, completely covered in a heavy woolen burqa, flirting with this man. Then I was standing in front of a mirror, crying as I tried to use a red lipstick to paint a human woman's pretty mouth on my ugly 'face'. Rereading that, I see how crazy it sounds, but Bea, as I call her, is as real to me as my sister or husband is. And I spent 2 years writing and re-writing that SF novel before giving up on it, so Em and I shared headspace for a long time. If I have other assassin alters, I've not yet met them. For Bea, time passes pretty normally, but for Em it slows down--in fact that's a "signature" of her being out. And reality feels cold and empty and strange. LilyPat

by sw » Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:32 pm

Belgium

Re: prior victims

Re: belgium and the lebanon connection

Re: belgium and the lebanon connection

Re: belgium and the lebanon connection

Re: prior victims

Re: prior victims

parts

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Re: parts

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Lord of the Rings and Storage

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