Pedophile's sentence too harsh, judge rules

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Re: doctrinal scapegoating/pursuit of justice

Postby Project Willow » Sun Jun 04, 2006 5:02 am

In response to this thread I'm having that terrible feeling/thought again... that there isn't good in scale opposite to the evil. <br><br>Anna Livia... you're back.<br><br>Talk more about your garden. Reading your posts I was also thinking, it's such hard work, it's so emotionally draining to have a conscious and actively care. No wonder most people numb out.<br><br>It's funny, when these issues come up I think of a line of Gandolf's from Tolkien's Lord of The Rings: (paraphrased, I can only remember the movie version now)<br><br>"Some that live deserve death, and some who die deserve life, can you give it to them?"<br><br>I could not make myselves agree on the justice issue if I tried, and I could probably recite arguments from many viewpoints in one post. Needless to say, I feel enough rage to execute some people. Then I wonder, what about the captive adults in ra situations? They're hurting people too, but they're under control. How do we sort that out?<br> <p></p><i></i>
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captive adults

Postby blanc » Sun Jun 04, 2006 5:24 am

PW you raised an issue which I did not dare to. It is exactly why I fear a justice machine which would re-introduce capital punishment or mutilation. It is so hard to explain the way ra functions, to members of public rightly raging against the torture and murder of little children.<br>Yet avoiding real investigation, closing down on the victims because it is hard to get it right, or worse, giving light sentences which make these crimes appear to be considered insignificant, will only feed and perpetuate groups.<br><br>The ASCA report made me feel more hopeful than I have for a long time. The cover of secrecy is necessary for these crimes to function, the lack of knowledge about them enables victims to be found, and feeds the self importance of the perpetrators who feel themselves to be part of an elite with an esoteric knowledge. That 'elite' need to be confronted daily with what the rest of us think of them, outing, labelling, trivialising, mocking, re-defining publicly as inadequates, parasites,who no more contribute to human society than a bubonic plaque microbe. One thing usually makes the organisers stand out from the captives btw is wealth. Follow the money trail.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: captive adults

Postby havanagilla » Sun Jun 04, 2006 5:53 am

<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>victim perps..an issue.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>it was raised in the MsM re the colonia dignidad rehab-takeover project. I don't think they came up with a final plan, but they had a lot of thinking done. <br><br>00<br>follow the wealth is a good pointer ALTHOUGH, not conclusive. If I am looking at people I know from my family, like my late sis who was a perp/vic herself, then, for a certain period of time she might have appeared very wealthy, but this wealth turned out to be an illusion that was snatched out the moment her function was completed. and restored to true owners, some guinea pig receive very nice pampered cells, for a certain period of time.<br>To qualify as a net perp, the wealth has to be secure, and in control of the subject, and this is sometimes difficult to distinguish. I can see now how my parents' money is going to be recycled back to where it originated in order to keep a certain machinary going.<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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wealth

Postby blanc » Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:04 am

Indeed. These groups operate on a hierarchy, so, at any point in the line, a person is more or less contaminated and more or less pampered. But at some point, if we are not to deny justice a function at all, an attempt has to be made to differentiate between those who could escape the cycle of abusing and those who realistically cannot. I am thinking now of 2 young women, both were in ra groups, not from choice. One fled, battered by the person trying to stop her, and remains 'out' despite the abject failure of authorities to protect her and pursue the top dogs in the group, despite reprisals, despite the fear and the danger. The second in a different group, remained, though she had enough cash and basic freedom to escape. To the second, I would wish any justice to be moderated with extreme mercy, because of the erosion of her basic personality by abuse and drugs, and her low level in the group. To none of those immediately 'superior' would I wish anything but justice, because though I believe them to be somewhere in the mid region of the feeding chain, I think their choices were greater and their wealth also. Writing all this, I am conscious of 2 things, one that I may hurt those who have been close to abusers or victim/abusers and have an ambivalent relationship with them - there is some good in even the most evil - so I am sorry. Second, that I too am afraid. No-one who has been 'got' as a victim, however temporarily, by an abusive group, can be sure that there is no planted or manufactured evidence against them. In fact, usually, you are pretty certain that there is.<br>The connection between having been abused as a child and becoming an abuser is formalised in ra groups, with the very youngest of children being forced to 'perpetrate' in some way. We make judgements of guilt/innocence of adults in other analogous situations, bringing collaborators to justice for the assistance they gave to the nazi machine for example - when the argument may be made that they had little choice. <br>So, another 'test' is did the victim/perpetrator try to get out. This too is not perfect.<br>The argument that the psychology of a perpetrator 'makes' them commit crimes is at the far end of the slippery forgiveness slope, and the relationship between suffering abuse in childhood and becoming an abuser - (outside of controlling ra groups I mean), has led to an overweighting of justice against the interests of primary victims, imho. Not all abused become abusers, some suffer terribly to escape abusive groups or to live alone and unsupported because their abusive families are hell and no-ne else steps in.<br>I'd like to recommend "Stuart, A Life Backwards" by Alexander Masters, for its insight into the chaos sown by even relatively casual disorganised abuse in childhood , and many sharply focused vignettes into the failures of society to deal with it, and the blame the victim culture. <p></p><i></i>
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upon further relection

Postby mother » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:10 am

It is true that my faith obliges me not to desire revenge, and to hate the sin and not the sinner. But Christ also said, "better for a man to have a millstone hung about his neck, and to be tossed into the sea than scandalize one of the little ones who belong to me." (hope I quoted correctly). I am a hotheaded type, and have always had to work at attaining virtues such as prudence. Baby rapists happen to be my weak point. If I were prudent, I would avoid reading anymore about them, because I already know a) about the subject and b) how badly it affects my soul. So let me clarify, I wrote my feelings on the matter. Feelings are not facts. Interesting to be the one to receive all those words of personal condemnation, as opposed to the few about the baby-raper. I wonder if my accuser has children, or has cared for little rape survivors, and can understand the "animal instinct" underlying my lack of sympathy for the baby pornographer. I can understand hers/his approach, because before I became a parent my feelings about children were more academic. Now my feelings are quite intense, which is good, because God blessed me with these children and I will do anything necessary to protect them from harm. And we will take any child into our family who needs refuge, and have done so. That does NOT qualify me for sainthood, nor does anything I have ever written here dare to hint at such nonsense. So I am sorry to have caused anyone to have more proof of how horrid Christians are, yet the words written hint at a hatred waiting for the excuse...at any rate, I do have to work more on forgiveness, it's true. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: upon further relection

Postby friend catcher » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:56 am

I,ll repost what I said and feel free to point out just where the " sympathy for baby rapists" lies<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>I think the death penalty always becomes a political weapon of intimidation. Though their are always going to be people who quite frankly should be removed from the face of the earth(yes dick and george , I include you) and individuals whose crimes are beyond comprehension, the error rate due to malevolence and incompetence is glaringly large. Here in the UK there have been many miscarriages of justice involving murder verdicts that fourty years ago would have sent 50 or more to the gallows and the backlog of cases still waiting retrial is huge. I also think justice needs to remain calm and that certain crimes can be dealt with by a prison sentence that keeps the offender away from society for ever, even if they do find god/jesus.<br><br>I think that any state needs to be responsive to the needs of its citizens for basic security and stability but revenge is not a basis for a justice system. Containment for life is an effective treatment for irredeemable crimes.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>That I don't wish to join a lynch mob mentality and advocate permanent incarceration, as opposed to mutilation and execution, does not equate with sympathy. The crime spoke for itself the nature of this thread was on the incomprehensible failure of the system to reflect this. The failure of thejudge and prosecution to apply the existing laws has to be the major point of concern.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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millstones

Postby blanc » Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:21 pm

I'm pro the millstones mother. Hope you don't take anything I wrote as condemnation of the gut response we have to those who harm children, know I'll never reach the state of grace which looks kindly on those sinners. Its just that there is an area of difficulty, greatest in attributing ra crimes correctly. If those millstones could rain down from heaven and hit the right mark I'd be really happy. <p></p><i></i>
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quick one

Postby AnnaLivia » Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:42 pm

havn't caught up with more posts, yet. can't wait to read 'em and return! but have to share my 'puter with kids right now.<br><br>BBL (the first time i ever saw that, i thought it meant big big love, btw) <p></p><i></i>
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Re: wealth

Postby havanagilla » Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:31 pm

blanc, i think this is extremely important (at least for me and i think for anyone in this messy field).<br> --<br> on edit- i dropped the nazis, cause this is too personal for me. I really don't know much about them to say anything, but my initial response to the comparisson was anger, and it came from a different corner. <br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=havanagilla>havanagilla</A> at: 6/5/06 3:48 am<br></i>
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ra/feelings

Postby mother » Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:16 pm

blanc, thanks. It's such a terrible subject to deal with, no wonder people like to be in denial about it. Peace to all. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: ra/feelings

Postby havanagilla » Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:46 pm

protecting perps, emotionally.<br><br>I just realized that the discussion is also bringing up remnants of sick habit to protect the perps, because some perps happen to among those who were carers and family. It is very hard for the abused child inside, to form a balanced, rational position towards the culpability of parent-perps or other from close family. I am amazed how after all I have been through at the hands of my family, i am still unable to pass judgment on them. So, "compassion" by some, might indicate the existence of parental abuse...and tehrefore the need to deny and excuse them and make it into a rule.<br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=havanagilla>havanagilla</A> at: 6/5/06 3:47 am<br></i>
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r/a feelings

Postby mother » Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:41 pm

Havanagilla, you did nothing wrong to your son. Grandmother was unreasonable to her grandson, and she has something broken. It comes down to how you console your little boy. He is giving you "normal" reaction to being treated so unkindly-this is good, compared to hiding it. He's got a genius for a mother, and he is safe showing his despair, because he understands how much you love him. What a long, hard day you have had. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: r/a feelings

Postby Project Willow » Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:33 am

Blanc and Hava, thanks for sharing all of that.<br><br>I think about my mother too. She is a major perp, but also controlled and was used. Why and how do some try to escape and others remain locked throughout their lives? Does that speak to the quality of the Core, or is it genetic or circumstantial?<br><br>These are questions I've been restling with, and it's difficult because guilt has always lain so heavily on me, and I believe for most survivors who break free.<br><br>Maybe answers will come eventually. I also fear that these issues are too complicated for our system to deal with. <p></p><i></i>
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interests

Postby blanc » Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:29 am

Hava, as usual, you have hit the nail on the head - the programming makes a person act against their own interests. so confusing it gets that in the end the person can't see what their own interests are. <br><br>it is a little tiny bit analogous to the idea often talked around on this board, that whole populations become duped, almost brainwashed by false information, into acting against their own interests - in our 'democracies'.<br><br>I don't think you did wrong by your son. we underestimate children so often, overprotecting them through a desire to make everything perfect for them. The main thing is your love for him, that is his cocoon.<br><br>I understand what you say about your sister not knowing that there was anything else - yes, I think about a child I knew, growing up in an ra family. (at the time I did not know). She was used of course, as a lure.<br>There was a time, early teens, when she was taken out of school "ill". The same thing had happened to her brother. I think this could be when the child has enough awareness to grasp that there is something else, and wants to rebel - then that must be squashed. I know that both of these are still in it. How do I judge them? Someone I work with has spoken to me of a case which was prosecuted as 2 trials, held in camera, where witnesses for the prosecution in one trial were defendents in another. <br><br>I am not sure if those making excuses for perps are always those who have had a relationship with them though. I think there is so much muddle - half understood psychology can be one prop; then there are those who think they understand the reality of child abuse and actually have no idea what it really means; those who think that there is a libertarian issue; those who look at an adult survivor and think - well there's nothing wrong with you; those who are very ready to demonise children, either from a religious perspective, or because they think they have seen sexualised behaviour in children which goes some way to justifying or explaining the adult reaction, those who dredge up often inaccurate anthropological examples and so on. <br><br>PW - I just don't know why some people can try to escape and others can't or don't. The silence around this subject means there is no exploration of the psychology, all we have are a few stories. There is a young woman I see from time to time, an escapee. How she found the strength and courage I will never know. Yet if someone not knowing her story were to meet her, they would probably not want to know her - she is no obvious saint, not polished, educated, refined, thoughtful-analytical. (nothing about her 'explains' her strength). This essential core humanity, where does it come from and how does it survive what seems to be unsurvivable? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: interests

Postby havanagilla » Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:40 am

-<br>It was very griggering now to read about those people you knew. My elder sister, when she became 16 was "declared" mysteriously ill and was at home for months with an unspecified something... <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=havanagilla>havanagilla</A> at: 6/5/06 3:46 am<br></i>
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