*triggering* Research on violent/illegal porn

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Re: PhD

Postby havanagilla » Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:09 am

I am so happy to hear that you are bringing this into academia. Not that I am too hopeful about academia (we have 4thbase thread about "DR." Anderson, to prove that its also a place for the evildoers to legitimize crime as "research"), but it is usually a forerunner, namely, our institutions work this way that a formal research is required in order to start the wheels of legislation, enforcement etc. So, BRAVO !<br>I do hope that you will mention MC, if only as an allegation, or the existence of victims and victims orgs that claim MC as intersecting with RA. Are you offering it to Psych dept ? I would hope criminology, or some involvement with law, so that it has more "teeth" for the public presentations. Just a thought, but anything will do.<br>--<br>"Are RA victims more traumatised then non-RA victims? These are the questions that we have to answer." very good questions. <br>--<br>Lastly, I agree with you that the doctrinal debates on the origins of RA and other structural issues serve as distractions as well, sometimes. But there is an importance to the question whether it is "criminal" or "human rights violations", in terms of response. Namely, is the response only law enforcement, or if this is a combined "political-religious" phenomenon, with social institutions' involvement, then we are talking about human rights in the classic meaning.<br> <br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: social and question on equasterian aspects in RA/MC

Postby bvonahsen » Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:29 am

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"I'm glad he brought up the topic -- I don't think it derailed this thread."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>I agree whole heartedly. And Sepka did not say that he disbelieved in RA, just that he wasn't convinced it has a global command and control structure or is part of some grand conspiracy. It's just sick fucks doing what they've always done.<br><br>That some one is furry, or plushie or whatever does not automatically make them an abuser, which is what I think some have tried to imply.<br><br>Many survivors are in the BDSM community to help them deal with their issues. If it works for them all the better. "Whatever gets you through the night." <p></p><i></i>
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Re: PhD

Postby biaothanatoi » Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:55 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I am so happy to hear that you are bringing this into academia. Not that I am too hopeful about academia<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>There is lots of bad academic work on RA - particularly in sociology - academics who never bother to actually meet survivors but just cut up their accounts into little pieces and insist it's all too bizarre to be true. <br><br>Or researchers that "review" cases they have nothing to do with and conclude that there is not enough forensic evidence to support an allegation of RA, therefore the allegation is false ... although the researcher has no forensic or legal training. This kind of stuff happened a lot in the early 1990s. Thankfully it's died down a bit.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>formal research is required in order to start the wheels of legislation, enforcement etc.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>Absolutely. The govt and the cops require research evidence before they can justify taking action on anything. <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I do hope that you will mention MC, if only as an allegation, or the existence of victims and victims orgs that claim MC as intersecting with RA.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Again, it's a matter of terminology. "Mind control" ... or "thought reform"? or "trauma-based psychological conditioning"? <br><br>"Mind control" as a phrase has a lot of the same limitations as "ritual abuse" - too broad, too many different definitions, too much baggage.<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Are you offering it to Psych dept ? I would hope criminology, or some involvement with law, so that it has more "teeth" for the public presentations. Just a thought, but anything will do.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Not psych. From my POV, the debate on ritual abuse is completely dominated by psychology. I think it's why we have such a stunted understanding of the dynamics of RA groups and the history of RA as a whole - because those theories have been developed by psychs as an adjunct to their work with RA clients, and they don't have the necessary criminological/sociological training.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But there is an importance to the question whether it is "criminal" or "human rights violations", in terms of response.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>We call something "criminal" when it falls under the penal code, but a "human rights violation" is broader then that - it locates a crime within the framework of international law, which is where all torture should be located - because torture can only occur through negligence/complicity on behalf of the state. <br><br>Ritual abuse was identified in 1993 by the United Nations as an ongoing human rights abuse in Australia (the Special Rapportuer on the Sale of Children's 1992 "Mission to Australia") ... and the govt has done nothing. <br><br>It's not just that a crime is occuring, but the systematic violation of the human rights of women and children alongside the apathy of the Aust govt. That propels RA onto the world stage - it actually opens up the possibility of appealing to the UN to force the Aust govt. to do something about it.<br><br>The question about whether RA is religious, sexual, or profit-driven might make for an interesting debate on the ground (and we'd probably find the answer differs from one perp group to the next) but I think too much emphasis is placed on trying to figure out the perps. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: PhD

Postby havanagilla » Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:37 am

I like your definition of human rights, only I would work on strengthening the chain of logic from "torture" to "can only happen with state complicity". This is something we, victims, know. But it doesn't follow necessarily that any lax criminal enforcement is a matter of international law and human rights law. You have to be more specific and I think its worth it, because this might reinforce the UN pressure on our governments. Refugee laws are using this broad definitions in most countries, namely, the connection between lack of law enforcement in an individual case and the right to asylum, but this is very specific and limited. <br><br>MC, if you include it as a footnote/side section in RA work, is worth mentioning only to point to a deeper state involvement in RA (on top of no enforcement), taking it from MKultra and pointing to more recent interest of the intel community in "cults" and the older interest in trauma based conditioning. The blame can then be formulated only as - instead of working to eliminate RA rings, some state agencies are actually tapping into those rings for various goals (research, intel gathering, etc.). By doing this, they exacerbate the already lax enforcement. <br>This is not so far fetched as claiming reality (namely that it appears recently that many intel communities are actively engaged in RA as a "sub culture"). This is almost orthodox, because tapping into crime rings, by intel, is not so "outrageous" to claim, and might also have good references. I don't know your country's history, but certainly in Israel, it is a matter of record that the mafia assisted the war efforts against the Nazis and other wars. You can see traces of this legacy in movies such as Schwatzennager (the one where he is trying to catch a boat smuggling special laser guns sold by top US official to a dangerous terrorist group. his assistance in the dock comes from the local mob that dominates the workers union in the port, etc etc.). <br>--<br>Then you can also touch briefly on the paperclip/nazi infiltration into such projects that explore thought reform/control. But then I know less about it to offer any solid documents (as I said elsewhere I tend to doubt the extent of this influence, simply because it is too convenient). <br>--<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: PhD

Postby biaothanatoi » Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:30 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>MC, if you include it as a footnote/side section in RA work, is worth mentioning only to point to a deeper state involvement in RA (on top of no enforcement)<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>I want to look specifically at the role of ritualistic activity in organised sexual exploitation - the issue of thought reform (etc) will be addressed to the extent that it comes through in the ritualistic activity, but the history of "mind control" won't be relevant to the project per se. <br><br>And frankly, the similarities between torture techniques can be explained a number of different ways - I don't buy the MKultra 'trickle down' effect. Paramilitary torturers use the same techniques as RAers - torture is torture is torture. RAers may be relatively sophisticated but it's their "business" to control/silence extremely traumatised children/adults - why wouldn't they have developed complex and effective ways of maintaining control through trauma/dissociation?<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The blame can then be formulated only as - instead of working to eliminate RA rings, some state agencies are actually tapping into those rings for various goals (research, intel gathering, etc.).<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>But research isn't about "formulating blame". And <br>the American govt is not "to blame" for RA around the world if black ops got involved with cults and child torture at some point.<br><br>Organised crime can only exist by corrupting the institutions of the state (doesn't matter if it's drugs, kids, porn, whatever) but in RA, we keep seeing it the other way around - we blame the corruption for the crime. And the constant fascination with govt complicity totally obscures the way that RA plays out on the ground. <br><br>The case histories are fairly mundane: screwed up families screwing up their children networked with other screwed up families. That's where most of the prosecutions occur and you see it all the time. These families are dirt poor, long history of neglect and trauma, lashings of Satanism/occult/religious fanatacism, and *bang* you've got RA. <br><br>In some cases, they are involved in organised crime (drugs, porn, prostitution), there's a lot of money floating around the place. In some cases, the groups are large enough to start a blackmail operation, and, with a combination of blackmail and bribery, they can start pulling in and controlling people of influence. <br><br>We keep getting obsessed by the fact that some RA perps are police or govt - but it also involves priests, teachers, psychologists, doctors, etc. In fact, it <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>mostly</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> involves mundane perverted psychos.<br><br>I think conspiracy theories come about when people observe a social force (eg the widespread denial of RA) and they attribute it to conscious actors, rather then issues like culture, psychology, etc. RA is protected by similar types of corruption that protect all forms of organised crime, but speaking about "the govt" as being knowledgeable and complicit is too simplistic. <br><br>Our history of RA is totally dominated by an underground vision of American govt corruption - but that is not the whole story, not when prostituted women from Ghana and Zimbabwe and Nambia are reporting ritual abuse prior to their trafficking into Europe as sexual slaves. We can't "explain" RA by invoking nazis and shadowy govt conspiracies, and the more we cling to those explanations, the less likely we are to find help. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: PhD

Postby havanagilla » Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:11 am

my emphasis on the gov was re the legal concept of "human rights". By definition, violations of human rights are those that involve gov, not private actors. So, basically you are saying it is better to deal with the criminal aspects showing only that the gov is not doing enough to eliminate the crime. that's very important, in and of itself.<br><br>As for the African RA, I am sure evil was here before the CIA (wow, that's a subversive assertion here on the board), and so were perverse crime rings of both poor people and elites. I think there is a special political interest when one suspects that the Emperor of the world is connected to these forms of crimes. (as in Bush/Cheney, but even if just a general "CIA" statement). This is the fascination with Nazi doctors CIA and intel in the western hemisphere. We hope that the Africans do not have rulers who enjoy hurting people to get erections. but who knows.<br><br>these are two issues. Practically, your "let's keep it simple" attitude is good, maybe not for discussion here, as we are trying to bounce ideas, but certainly for all practical reasons, and more so academia. I just hope that the usual instrumental consideration do not block you from keeping the more deeper/fuzzier picture in mind. <br>--<br>Certainly, the debate in Australia need not fall into the americana craze, because australia is also not a satelite of USA, providing it with an objective look on reality worldwide. <br>As for Israel, our reality here is very much colored by the concpets and by the realities of the USA, not so much Namibia and Zair or China. <p></p><i></i>
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focus

Postby blanc » Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:15 pm

Mostly, I really like the proposal, but I do have a bad feeling about making the assumption that because most of the perpetrators who get caught, (few enough!) are at the low end, that that is the whole story. I think that there is evidence of lower end criminal groups supplying those of greater social standing and a significant middle class perp group. So the danger I see is not that you do not recognise this, Biao, but that a study could become another unwitting or unwilling gatekeeper for the more powerful. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: focus

Postby biaothanatoi » Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:38 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Mostly, I really like the proposal, but I do have a bad feeling about making the assumption that because most of the perpetrators who get caught, (few enough!) are at the low end, that that is the whole story.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>I agree - the low-end perps get caught, but that doesn't make them representational of all perps. And the point about "supply" is an important one. It's going to have to be listed explicitly as "one of the limitations of the study" ... <p></p><i></i>
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Re: focus

Postby Dreams End » Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:49 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It's going to have to be listed explicitly as "one of the limitations of the study"<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Unless you can get a little stipend to travel to Belgium.... <p></p><i></i>
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Re: PhD

Postby biaothanatoi » Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:32 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>As for the African RA, I am sure evil was here before the CIA (wow, that's a subversive assertion here on the board)<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Interestingly ... an RA perp here in Australia was due for release this year ... until the prison authorities busted him in email contact with people in Ghana swapping tips on RA. He's been ruled at such a high risk of re-offending that he's now being held in custody indefinitely. <br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>This is the fascination with Nazi doctors CIA and intel in the western hemisphere.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>I think also ... RA is so awful that we naturally look for an equally awful cause. The notion that RA might be "just" the convergence of sadism and control doesn't seem to speak to the severity of the atrocities within RA.<br><br>At the same time ... we do have to explain why so many DIDs have such similar internal structures and alters with the same names. I've been speaking recently to an Australian NGO that deals primarily with RA/DID/extreme trauma - they do a lot of case management with psychs with RA/DID clients - and they were quite definite about the commonalities between DID structures in Australia and America.<br><br>I've spoken to psychs that work with them, and they affirmed the same thing - they weren't able to make progress with many DID clients, they made contact with this NGO that explained common DID structures to them, and hey presto - progress, healing, integration.<br><br>When I asked the NGO how these global similarities in DID were possible, they seemed to feel that, at some point, there had been a dissemination of DID-creating techniques around the world. Scary stuff.<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Practically, your "let's keep it simple" attitude is good, maybe not for discussion here, as we are trying to bounce ideas, but certainly for all practical reasons, and more so academia.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>I do agree with this, but it's not about "keeping it simple". It's actually about "making it complicated" - because RA is a complex crime. At the moment, "RA" covers all the crimes that occur alongside ritualistic abuse - including torture, child porn, child prostitution, etc. We need to unpack all of that and list ritualistic abuse alongside them - not use RA as a byword for all of them. <br><br>If you read Lanning's report, or most of the "debunkers", they aren't actually claiming that ritualistic activity does not occur within organised sexual exploitation. What they are rejecting is the common formulation of "RA" amongst survivors/advocates - "organised Satanism" etc. We all go off on tantrums claiming that nobody believes us and it's all a big conspiracy, etc, but what Lanning et. al. are doing is rejecting our speculations about the perpetrators. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: PhD

Postby Dreams End » Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:21 am

bio, I'd love more info on the commonalities in DID cases...pm if you don't want to make it public, but you know its for personal use. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: PhD

Postby havanagilla » Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:33 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>but what Lanning et. al. are doing is rejecting our speculations about the perpetrators.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>this can be very important for survivors, in terms of treatment at least. Its like saying to genocide survivors...well, there were some killings around but don't get paranoid it wasn't a conspiracy against all of you. just a convergence of different little crimes. it makes a difference for a person, naturally, and it also makes a huge difference in terms of prevention/enforcement. <br>but yes, go ahead, does't matter, you will probably find along the way what the other "limitatoin on this paper" are. Academia is that way...and so if you don't forget that its just a tool, that's ok. if you fall for the academic "bubble" (footnotes are more important than life out there), then it is going to be a loss of the topic anyway. Since I've been in the setting and started the process of trying to put my experience in those terms, I know the pitfalls. A case such as Jennifer Freyd is rare, namely, that she was able to develop a theory out of <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>her own mental</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> situation without actually trading her experience for the tenure. Usually, they make some faustian offer...:-). depends how close you are getting to anoy people of power who might be affected. In my case, it turns out that the same university I was working for, is implicated in some ways, in the issue (MC, or at least human experimentation of the third kind). That's the Hebrew U., and I mentioned that in the new thread about HUman Experimentations a couple of days ago. Apparently, the new investigation that is rocking the health system, points to the Hebrew U as the "academic auspices" of this large scheme against the elderly ,and where at least one Mengele survivor was experimented on and died as a result. So, if your university's rector is not consuming snuff, you stand better chances of going deeper in the probes. (reminds me of my other alma matter, so to speak, American U, when the pres was caught making obscene phone calls to a child care teacher, and jerking off in the process). Certainly during HIS tenure, the research of sex abuse was probably not high on the agenda. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :rolleyes --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>--<br> <p></p><i></i>
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did/dissemination

Postby blanc » Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:30 am

I should also like a discussion on simiarities in DID. There are some other indices about dissemination. I recall a brief news report some years ago that police in Zurich had seized what amounted to a manual of techniques for abuse. Also, from my knowledge of testimony and attempts at tracking perpetrators, it is obvious that there are no national boundaries. <br><br>Biao, you referred to British cops having done a case review in 1990 which suggested that about 1 in 40 paedo rings used RA. Could you specify the source for this?<br><br>In May 2005 Terence Grange , ACPO lead for violent crime wrote<br>"Over the past months I have consulted with a number of people including other Chief Constables, The National Working Group for Child Protection, The National Working Group for MAPPA and the National Police Homicide Working Group all of whom have stated that they have no knowledge of current/recent or past cases which would amount to any form of ritual or satanic abuse. Many had knowledge of myths associated with these subject matters ..."<br><br>and further<br><br>"I am aware of continued debate surrounding allegations which are based on 'repressed memories' of adults and children using 'suggestive' psychological techniques - this debate has not only occurred in the UK but in Europe, United Stated (sic) and Australia but virtually no material evidence has emerged that I am aware of that supports the existence of ritual or satanic abuse"<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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