*triggering* Research on violent/illegal porn

[havanagilla]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What I'm realizing here is that the profiles of behaviour and demography that are being attributed to this strange, satanic elite that are supposedly behind the RA phenomenon fits the fursuiting/mascotting community quite tightly. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>care to explain this one ?<br><br>(i am still processing the rest of your post...mascotting ? fursuiting ?) <p></p><i></i>

[blanc]

lost my first reply to Sepka who doesn't believe in the existence of ra but does like furry suits and playing horsey.<br>So, Sepka, you do believe that grown men do this fursuiting stuff and the horse thing, but you don't believe that people rape torture and kill? and er blackmail. Is that it? And you don't believe that there is an industry of violent pornography which bankrolls millions? And if you did which you don't you couldn't believe it would be of any interest to the clean living fun guys who meddle in politics and big business and maybe party in their own special ways?<br><br>Sepka, when people 'talk'about fragments of memory of crimes involving perps who sometimes used costumes or animals it is usually in order to unravel the programming hidden behind the crime. It isn't to impute evil deeds to all costume fanciers or pet men. <br><br>Also, I don't think, having read this board for a few months, that there is any consensus about 'conspiracy'. <p></p><i></i>

[biaothanatoi]

Sepka, I think you are a bit wide of the mark. <br><br>(a) There is no consensus on this board regarding RA as "crime of the powerful". If you read the case histories, you can see RA emerging out of, for instance, housing projects and extreme poverty. <br><br>(b) And as for the "fursuiting" angle - that's your thing, go crazy, but it has nothing to do with the subject under discussion. If you pursue this angle you are just going to derail the debate. <p></p><i></i>

[blanc]

The police who made this report were unable to access certain porn because of the entry ticket - ie a fresh crime. this is a similar frustrating problem which faces victims who find law enforcement officers unwilling to believe them - they cannot search for the images made without their consent because just possessing those images is a crime. <br><br> Yet surely technologies exist to crack into communications - isn't that what the listening stations which NSA has are about?<br>I am glad that this report exists, because distributing it may make it harder for police to avoid investigations by the ruse of declaring the victim crazy on the basis that the events they describe haven't happened - proof of a kind exists that very similar events have happened. Still, 8 years after this report, those police who do wish to be active in stopping these appalling crimes are hamstrung and very under-resourced. <br>I can't provide figures for the numbers of children attacked in ra groups, its a hidden crime with a whole industry of paid debunkers to protect the perpetrators, but the fiigures which come from police about the numbers of 'new images', of children gone missing from care homes, of children who entered the country unaccompanied and then don't show up in school, or disappear, and the numbers of ra cases known to me and to others working in the field - all of this suggests that very many children are victims. Many more, I think, than have ever been victims of a terrorist attack on the mainland. In other words, the chances of someone's family suffering because of ra criminal activity is far greater than the chances of suffering because of terrorism. This is a plea for resources to be put where they are needed. Then perhaps convictions will follow and we won't have to hear anyone denying the experience of so many survivors. <p></p><i></i>

[yathrib]

I'm clueless about this equestrian thing, but it makes me think of something so obvious it must be worthless, but here goes nothing: Anyone remember the popular stageplay/movie "Equus" about a teenager who was obsessed with horses/ mutilation of horses? At the timer the whole thing seemed occultic/ritualistic to me, from hearsay anyway. I was too young for the play, and too uninterested for the movie when it came out. <p></p><i></i>

[professorpan]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>(b) And as for the "fursuiting" angle - that's your thing, go crazy, but it has nothing to do with the subject under discussion. If you pursue this angle you are just going to derail the debate.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Sepka was responding to the association of an Easter Bunny costume at the White House picnic and the goofy speculation some people made about its connection to RA. He wasn't off-topic at all, but noted that not all adults who dress up in animal costumes are ritual abusers (and animal costumes are a common trope in RA accounts).<br><br>I'm glad he brought up the topic -- I don't think it derailed this thread. <p></p><i></i>

[blanc]

I have problems with "don't believe in the reality of ra" and "in the sense that most posters here do...as a grand conspiracy of the powerful"<br>We could discuss<br>how is the existence of a set of behaviours we call ra for short a matter of belief, how has sepka established what most posters here believe? Whose goofy speculation (where) was Sepka responding to, and aint it rather obvious that not all adults who dress up abuse?<br>but actually that would take us away from the subject, which was a report on violent pornography and the elements within it which validate testimony of ra/mc survivors.<br><br>The quote which biao italicised "phenomena which exist neither in mainstream culture nor in peoples imagination or consciousness", puts the real position very clearly. despite the fact that a large number of measures have been put in place to discredit the reports of survivors, with claims of false memories, fantasist behaviour etc. survivors typically have no source other than the truth for what they state. In the course of hearing testimony from different survivors, I have heard many things which I wish were not possible. I have heard these things from people whose histories, public histories, would not allow them to access material not in mainstream culture , and I have heard them from many sources. The first posts I made on RI were in response to phenomena being revealed to biao, on another continent to the one I live on, and I posted to let him know that survivors here made similar reports. I don't think this proves a global conspiracy of the powerful - doesn't disprove it either - but it does go some way to suggesting that perpetrators relate to each other in some ways. I don't think perpetrators are especially imaginative, because they come up with vile things to do which are outside human culture - on the contrary - I think they are pretty unimaginative, and imitative of each other and of non perpetrating humans. Though we call it ritual abuse, not all scenarios directly involve religious type ritualisations - as should be obvious from the furry costume angle. I was close enough to some perps for long enough to know to what extent they feed off mainstream culture (including its fringes) when devising their scenarios. That is part of the mind f***. The travesty of language and image serves to remove the reality base, and introduce uncertainty and triggering. Now that Biao has dug up this police report for us, which reveals that violent images taken of real events exist, and those images echo the types of reports survivors make, perhaps those who "don't believe in the reality of ritual abuse' could explain that position in relation to that report, rather than setting up straw men in bunny suits.<br> <p></p><i></i>

[biaothanatoi]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>He wasn't off-topic at all, but noted that not all adults who dress up in animal costumes are ritual abusers.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>What a fascinating insight. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :rolleyes --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>

[biaothanatoi]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Whose goofy speculation (where) was Sepka responding to, and aint it rather obvious that not all adults who dress up abuse?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Pretty obvious.<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>but actually that would take us away from the subject, which was a report on violent pornography and the elements within it which validate testimony of ra/mc survivors.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Online communication never fails to astonish me. One moment we are talking about gross human rights abuses, the next moment someone is complaining about discrimination against adults who dress up in costumes for shamanic pony experiences. <p></p><i></i>

[Sepka]

I suppose I'm not quite understanding your objections. Are you contending that violent pornography has nothing to do with ritual abuse?<br><br>-Sepka the Space Weasel <p></p><i></i>

[blanc]

Sepka, in a post about the validation of ra survivor experiences contained within a document on violent pornography produced by Norwegian police, you started a piece about how not all dressers up are abusers by stating that you did not believe in ritual abuse. Can you explain/justify any of that?<br><br>Biao - just as well he didn't buy his fur at walmart, that would really have trod roughly over people's sensibilities <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :D --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>

[havanagilla]

I hope I didn't sidetrack this thread by posting on the horses/ra connections. If I did, please accept apologees.<br>To the point, I have a little reservation with respect to Biao's claim that the general public is so naive and unaware of horrible sexual atrocities that its denial creates a safe-haven for the worst crimes. I doubt this is so, although I would like to think so.<br>Sexual atrocities are included in mainstream culture, such as Paosolini's movies, De Sade (has a comback among the intellectuals now), and other stuff, like "I claudius" (the old TV series, depicting the Roman Emperor's family, including their perversion, Caligula, Tiberius. etc, they all had a sick imagination when it came to sex/murder/torture. Even Clockwork Orange of the 70's used very graphic and sick imagery of the sadistic kind. This is just what comes to mind and there is holocaust atrocities (in the sexual area as well) and now Abu Gharaib etc. (not as horrible, but bad enough).<br>I was also quite amazed to find out, as I grew up in life, that many "normative" males (possibly females too, but I didn't get to discuss it with same), have at least once in their lives resorted to criminal sexual activity. This would be using a pros, or taking part in gang rape in high school, abusing/exploiting a mentally disabled person with others, etc. these are so called regular, normative, educated and so called progressive folks, so i wonder what the others do..<br>--<br>Therefore, I am not sure it is the denial factor that accounts for the "oh my god this doesn't really happen" response, rather it is more the usual general corruption and not wanting to get into stuff where one might entertain some guilt of his own. <p></p><i></i>

[biaothanatoi]

Hi Hav,<br><br>What the authors of the paper noted was that the images they were accessing in illegal/violent porn <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>have no antecedent</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> in mainstream culture. Their concern was that the images would prompt thoughts and behaviour that <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>could otherwise not have occurred</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> simply because the viewer would never be exposed to those kinds of stimulus anywhere else.<br><br>Yes, we have CSI: SVU and de Sade and so on ... but what this paper suggests is that they are not comparable to what is actually out there. The researchers here found (for instance) images of DIY aborted foetuses <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>used as pornography</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->. A regular joe has no way of understanding what this means. <br><br>In contrast, what does it mean to me? Well, it makes me think about the foetus smuggling ring that was busted in Columbia last year trying to traffick foetuses into America in the statues of Catholic saints. It makes me think about L. Ron Hubbard's abortion rituals, the OTO's "homunculi", and the RA perp in England whose phone records showed him making dozens of calls to abortion clinics around the country prior to his arrest.<br><br>It's not just "denial" that makes RA invisible, but most people don't have a context to understand <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>the things that happen</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> in RA or why they are significant. In RA, the foetus appears to be a fetishistic object, and the availability of abortion porn is further evidence of this. Most people have never dreamed of something like this.<br><br>There is some interesting research on the "pedagogical" nature of porn - the way that porn is used to "teach" women and children how to be sexual, who they "really" are, etc. For instance, all the research on child porn suggests that offenders use the material to "instruct" and "teach" child victims on how to perform during abuse. <br><br>But it goes further then that - I came across a piece of research yesterday that found a strong relationship between childhood exposure to violent pornography and adult fantasies about being raped.<br><br>So if you've got violent porn showing acts and images that are not accessible through mainstream culture ... and we know that porn is instructional, pedagogical, can inform the behaviour not only of perpetrators ... but can be used to fundamentally change the self-image of victims ... this is pretty dangerous stuff.<br><br>But, as I said, your regular joe (read: regular cop, regular detective, regular investigator) rarely has the experience to process what it all means. <p></p><i></i>

[havanagilla]

Biao,<br>Thanks for the explanation, this clarifies it, and yes, even the regular pervert doens't get a kick from abortions.<br>This is specific to RA with connection to satanic cultic practice. I would certainly agree that the regular pervert is not sophisticated as Hubbard and the rest of the top satanists. The existence and practices of the "elite cults" is indeed hidden from the mainstream culture. This, however, goes back to the other debate, of whether RA is primarily a "sex crime" among others, or a "spiritual/religious" phenomenon, accompanied by sex crime. I'd say that when it comes to OTO situations, with this abortion rituals and other stylized and sophisticated sex/death practices, the crime element is secondary to the <br>religious/numinous element. This is more the stuff of classic conspiracy theory, rather than undetected crime rings with special characteristics. I'd say its kind of the "head of the snake" when both political, satanist AND criminal elements combine. Certainly, this phenomenon is hidden and would suffer from denial, because there are no tools to handle it, psychologically. I think that as a victim, it still took me decades (and with many, even now, relapses into denial) to come to terms with this reality. we'd rather consider ourselves mad, than face this "pure evil". Another factor which adds to denial is the fact that those specific perverts/cult people are very accomplished, well spoken, educated and in many times hold positions of power or visibility. WHile its easier for us to imagine some low life, drug addict, sewage criminal, doing bad things, we suffer from "vertigo" when it comes to those who appear normal and educated and powerful. Who would want to think about their pres, minister, king, leader as a person who jerks off on dead babies ? that's way too scary. But at least from what I witness here in Israel, the most dangerous and sick/detestible human being, who are capable of these practices are heading many systems. However, I am also learning to detect the type of excellence they hold, it is always characterized with a form of being not thorough, cant explain what I mean, but these people are trying to grab knowlegde, they might be very much on top of many issues, but usually lacking intellectual rigor. I have some thought right now, but not formalized enough. <br>--<br>This is also the specific part where religious people DO have a framework (maybe not one that we like) to accept this reality, and others don't. BEcause the bible and all the other religious writings are specifically addressing the existence of "death cults" and various human sacrifice/orgiastic cult activity.<br>At least my religion, Judaism, addresses these issues, including the connection between certain sex-death-bestiality practices with black magic and cultic activity. It is not mainstream teaching material even in religious circles, but its there, available and discussed by those who wish to study it. You can occasionally stumble on such comments in the exegesis of the bible, where it will say something like "this bad king/man used to have sex with a donkey in order to perform black magic and kill this or that hero...etc." it appears as though, in certain times it was acceptable way of interpreting political events. i wish i could remember where I saw it, and bring back a footnote, but I don't. I am sure though that there is ample exegesis of Pharao's times in terms of black magic and the practices of his court. The general attitude is quite serious about it, including the sexual perversion as part of potent and focused political action (namely, to gain control and to wipe out rivals). thus we have the accounts of Moses doing all those big shows with magic, because the exegesis goes that he picked all that up while in the royal court but was sort of turning it to white magic. (there are interesting little bits there, as in the case of his sister, Miriam who bad mouthed his licensous conduct, when he had the "Negro concubine" (while in the desert), and as a result "god punished her" with a very bad skin desease, which cured only when she apologized. I suspect there was a lot of that going on there. Anyway, they had more respect to RA those days, namely, respect to its existence, danger, and power, in POLITICAL terms, not only moral or criminal. <br>--<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[biaothanatoi]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Thanks for the explanation, this clarifies it, and yes, even the regular pervert doens't get a kick from abortions.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Agreed. And, somehow, I don't think abortion porn is likely to get it's hour on CSI: SVU ... <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>This, however, goes back to the other debate, of whether RA is primarily a "sex crime" among others, or a "spiritual/religious" phenomenon, accompanied by sex crime.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>I think it's an interesting question, but I think it's something that RA needs to move away from. Neither weird sex, nor deviant religions, are illegal. Human rights abuses are, and I think it's hard to get people to focus on the harms associated with RA, rather then speculate on the possible motivations of the perpetrators. <br><br>I'm putting together a phd proposal on RA at the moment, and I usually refer to "ritualistic activity within organised sexual exploitation" rather then "ritual abuse". RA is actually a very difficult phrase to use, because (a) it has so many different definitions (b) it has so much baggage, particularly in the "Satanic conspiracy" dept and (c) it seems to camouflage the major crimes like child porn/prostitution that occur within RA. <br><br>The really weird thing about ritual abuse isn't the bizarre sexual aspects, snuff movies, murders, etc. You would expect that in criminal groups that trade/traffick in kids and get money out of sadistic porn etc. The really weird thing is that <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>a minority</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> of these paedophile/S&M groups put on regular ceremonial performances for their own purposes. <br><br>In 1990, the British cops did a case review that suggested about 1 in 40 paedo rings use RA. Why do some of these groups do RA and not others? What distinguishes RA groups from non-RA groups? Are RA victims more traumatised then non-RA victims? These are the questions that we have to answer.<br><br>And don't forget that sadomasochism, in it's consensual form, is highly ritualised and "cultic". It's easy to overstate the "religious" aspects of RA ... maybe the "religious" and the "sexual" aren't that far apart? <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>BEcause the bible and all the other religious writings are specifically addressing the existence of "death cults" and various human sacrifice/orgiastic cult activity.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Agreed - I think that's why religious groups/people have had an easier time coming to grips with RA then athiests etc. <p></p><i></i>