It was the babysitter???

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Re: How about this ?

Postby havanagilla » Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:04 am

a bit off topic. I was exposed, a few years ago to a healing group called <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://amanae.us/aboutchristineda.html" target="top">amanae</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> and its Australian founder CHristine Day. In retro, I feel it was a disempowering experience, although at the time I felt it helps me release trauma from the body. Christine Day told me that she was a victim of RA, specifically Satanic family, and on the verge of death she became a healer etc. she also specializes in "communicating" and treating autistic children. In the USA she referred me to a therapist who specialized in RA, I started treatment but after finding out the therapist is a christian devout person and her husband is a christian clergy/minister (and both originate in MD), I was afraid and left. Gradually, I weaned myself out of the treatment/group, when I felt growing discomfort with group sessions, that made everyone go into frenzy and scream and yell and cry. She certainly has "energy", but I felt that her recovery has taken a bizarre turn and that although she probably means well, she has stayed within the same matrix. anyway, if anyone has info, will appreciate. (she became quite a guru in Israel, has a large following here).<br><br>--<br>FWIW, during my endless recovery stages, i also became "wiccan" for a while. I think it is part of the programming. BUt that's just my experience, that some of programmers are pagan and so getting in touch with wiccan materials/rituals is a "repetition" which gives temp relief. I will not get close to Wicca now, but neither to any other high pressure spiritual group, that includes a church or synagogue as well. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: How about this ?

Postby Avalon » Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:05 pm

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>She has a tree tattooed on her back</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>And does she have pierced ears as well?<br><br>There are some forms of body mutilation and deciding blood and pain are worth doing for their end results, that are culturally acceptable. When's the last time you saw anyone protesting that little babies should not have needles thrust through their earlobes? (I'm personally nauseated by even the thought of ear piercing for anyone, let alone anywhere other than ears).<br><br>You've got to factor those popular and accepted customs of body modification in, and sort them out from those which come from less healthy urges.<br><br>For those of you who are using lowercase for Wicca, I'd like to remind you that it is a religion, and thus the word is always capitalized.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: How about this ?

Postby Dreams End » Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:26 pm

removing
Last edited by Dreams End on Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How about this ?

Postby Avalon » Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:45 pm

I wasn't sensing any judgement about the tree. And I understand that for some people, tattoos can be empowering. It does, however, shed a different light on her subsequent carving of a symbol on her body, than we might see without knowing about the tattoo.<br><br>While you are not always knowledgeable about it, you've always spoken respectfully of Wicca, and shown willingness to learn, Dreams End. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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telling it like it is

Postby blanc » Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:57 pm

Don't be silly Avalon. You read my post, including the disclaimer, why on earth do you want to read it as inflammatory? <br>There are several reasons* why I can't write everything which touches on RA which has come into my experience, on an open forum. I have just come away from the Dutroux thread (Alice's) , deciding not to print the info which would have elucidated many points, and which, in all honesty, I think should be in the public forum - only it should have got there via the machinery of justice. So if I can't give out chapter and verse I should shut up and pretend nothing has ever happened?<br><br>*here are some of the reasons:- <br>1. Survivor safety<br>2. Survivor confidence and confidentiality<br>3. not f***ing up ongoing or potential investigations by police<br>4. Common decency - not wanting to offend those who don't want to read horror over their cereals and coffee on the morning<br>5. Triggers to unsupported survivors<br>6. More info fed to creeps<br>7. litigation happy creeps and their affiliated trouble makers who might conceivably give this board, where I'm only a visitor , a bad time<br><br> I'll stop there, you get the picture. <p></p><i></i>
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attracting danger

Postby blanc » Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:26 pm

DE, sorry if what I say has created trouble - ra is an area where instantly a thousand angry voices reply (so it seems). <br>I just wanted to affirm what you had noticed about Debbie being singled out by someone you felt was bad news. Unfortunately, 'victims' seem to attract 'victimisers' - no excuses for the latter intended in that. its just that dangerous people, who you rightly charaqterise as weak in reality, seem to be able to home in on those with lower defenses. Your instincts are your best guide - follow them.<br><br>I'm no kind of an expert in survivor treatment, and am not sure if there are any. Much has been written about the paucity of proper research into the link between abuse in childhood and mental illness - if no research, where does that leave treatment. I wish you well. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: How about this ?

Postby biaothanatoi » Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:51 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>In her case it was the fact that "seeing blood" was the most important aspect of it. She has not, for emotional reasons, engaged in "relief cutting" let's call it, for some time now.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>One of the difficult things with sadistic abuse/DID is that behaviour can <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>mimick</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> self-harming activities ... but their origin and purpose is quite different.<br><br>For instance, my friend has been misdiangosed several times with an eating disoder, which in actual fact she has eating <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>aversions</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->. She doesn't starve herself for the reasons that an anorexic does. Se doesn't eat because (a) she was only allowed to eat certain foods in the group (b) her gag reflex is destroyed and (c) she's been forced to ingest filth so often that she associates any food that's brown, red, white, etc, with bodily wastes. <br><br>She prefers simple foods like crackers and biscuits, or clear soups where she can <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>see</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> what she's putting in her mouth. She once gave me a completely transparent glass teapot as a present, which I thought had a creepy laboratory feel but she thought was fantastic - because it didn't have any secrets. <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think that it's important to understand the history of Wicca. Let's be honest. Gardner founded it using a lot of material from Crowley.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>Scientology and Wicca - Crowley's two bastard children, both constructed by members of the OTO for power, sex and money.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I don't interpret her dreams for her, but that one does suggest that she's in a "false sunshine".<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>Probably, but people take respite where they can. Deep down, she knows, but maybe she just wants a moment of relief. And she has you - someone who cares about her, someone who can tap her on the shoulder if she wades out too far. That's why she'll be OK.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If that's not a Wiccan practice then where did she get the idea she needed to "christen" her knife this way<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>When I was Wiccan, I came across this method as well. It's one "option" amongst many. I doubt she came up with it herself. <p></p><i></i>
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knives

Postby blanc » Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:08 am

to me, Wiccans having 'ceremonial knives' doesn't inspire any confidence in the social responsibility of the practitioners. there are many disturbed souls seeking spiritual help and guidance - isn't messing with implements of harm in a supposedly spiritual experience a dangerous practice?<br><br>relief cutting. a pain to get rid of a pain - obviously an indication of a serious unaddressed problem.<br><br>ra constantly turns the victim against herself/himself, gets her to victimise herself. I think this is quite different from socialised versions of cutting the body, body decorations etc attached to ceremonies (such as coming of age) in other cultures. those are surely inclusive 'statements', cutting yourself in our society, in that pain centred way, is an act of isolation, a denial of self, and an exclusion of self. in fact, a re-living of the victimisation process. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: knives

Postby Dreams End » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:16 am

On at least one occasion, the urge to cut came from inside chatter that she should not have been telling certain things. It was self punishment. Other times it's really the "relief" it brings, or that she expects it to bring. In one bizarre moment before the most recent hospitalization, she was cutting (seemed like a teen alter "Aria" was out but I can't be sure) and writing "Help" or "Hell" on her leg in blood. I told her to give me the knife and she simply said "I'm not finished yet" like it was the most natural thing in the world.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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cutting

Postby blanc » Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:22 pm

Its a terrible thing for you to have to go through also. Have you tried - I expect you have - the very simple downplayed approach - like gently taking the cutting arm, if that's possible in the situation, or saying 'please don't'. Have you tried finding a supporters network, so there is not always just you, with no-one else to turn to?<br><br>If she should not have been telling certain things ands its followed by punishment, that sounds very r.a to me. I don't know if at that point you can get through, by saying something like, that's what THEY want isn't it, but now you don't have to take any notice, you can tell what you want; or alternatively trying to find something to bring back the present reality, a gentle comment not necessarily related to the immediate sense of panic you are probably feeling then.<br><br>I'm thinking that 'telling her to give you the knife' might sound controlling, and somehow you want remove the control/controlled idea - and replace it with the now you don't have to be hurt idea - but you were there, so obviously there may be times when the only thing to do would be to be ultra controlling and remove the danger, and try to sort it out later. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: cutting

Postby Dreams End » Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:46 pm

this is rather tedious
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Re: cutting

Postby biaothanatoi » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:18 pm

Hey DE,<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>So it really is possible that somehow a real parental duty (but very mismanaged if the suppositories are clearly so traumatic)</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br>This all sounds alarm bells to me. If her background is traumatic enough to induce DID, then (a) her constipation may have been related to sexual assault and anal trauma and (b) holding her down and forcing an object into her is an assault in and of itself. <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>This does not seem consistent with a man conscious that he had done certain things to his daughter that might surface...but as a skillful "bluff" it might make sense.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br>Perps aren’t always “evil”, particularly if they are former victims/DID. I’ve read accounts of perp fathers attempting to apologise for what they did, or trying to make it good. <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>God, on the one hand I sound really intolerant and on the other I'm ...I don't know what.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Well, I don’t’ mind sounding intolerant. DE – there is no benign “magickal” tradition in the West. Wicca, teenage Satanism, etc, are just watered down, kiddy versions of Thelema and an underground criminal subculture of Satanism, occultism and sadomasochism.<br><br>Look back through history – the Wiccan bumper sticker is “never again the Burning Times” but the similarity between court testimony in the witch hunts, and those of modern RA survivors, have been noted by commentators from Sigmund Freud to Jean Goodwin. We have instances of child sacrifice and ritual sexual abuse from ancient Greece to medieval France to Victorian England.<br><br>Wicca is harmless bullshit at best, sadomasochistic cult at worst – but nothing removes the fact that it derives directly from Crowley, Thelema, and a long history of coercive occult sex. <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>I'll tell you what the hardest thing about being involved with someone in a situation like this. You are constantly making decisions without enough information. You make the best choice you can...and my advice to anyone else in this situation is to accept the fact that you'll often make the wrong choice.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br>Thanks, DE. It was good to read this. I’ve been thinking back on the last few years and it’s hard not to beat myself up for some of the screw-ups – particularly the hospitalisations that made the situation so much worse. <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>It's fine to withhold evidence, but I don't think it makes sense to blame those who dont' accept it, unless you feel somehow that it should be "obvious" to the casual observer somehow?</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br>That’s not the problem – it was the demand that Blanc post names and places eg expose herself to harm. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: cutting

Postby Dreams End » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:56 pm

edit
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Re: cutting

Postby biaothanatoi » Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:45 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Bio, you really should read Carlo Ginzburg's Ecstasies: Deciphering the Witches' Sabbath. Accepting the testimony under torture of these women (primarily) makes very little sense.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Testimony extracted under torture cannot be accepted outright - but nor can it be rejected outright. Take the Inquisition documents on the witch-boy of Bamberg, who seems to go in and out of dissociative states under questioning, and who described incidences of sexual assault in his past. My point is not that the witch hunts were justified, nor that we do a Margaret Murray and accept the testimony material as primarily true ... but rather that the Arthur Miller version of Salem doesn't account for the evidence. <br><br>I know that you are just positing some possibilities below, but they raise some interesting points, so I'll go through them one by one. My response isn't intended to suggest that you believe them per se. <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>1. In general "anti-christian rituals" would be expected to look in the way Inquisitors "discovered" they did when they tortured their victims.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>But the Inquisitors did not "discover" this ritual structure. The earliest records of the etiquette of the "Black Mass" (complete with profane host, ritual sex, etc) dates back to the early Gnostics, which in turn related to some of the illegal activities of pre-Christian mystery cults. What is startling is that the testimony elicited by the Inquisition (under torture or not) has such strong parallels to the ritual sexual acts of the Gnostics a thousand years earlier.<br><br>But let's ignore that for a moment. If the Inquisitors could "invent" an anti-Christian sacrament by reversing traditional religious practices ... surely anybody else of their time could as well - particularly those motivated to imagine such things and put them into practice. <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>2. Inquisitors took some folk legends (which do not really resemble anything Wiccan or satanic at all...stories about flying and battles in the sky...often to determine the fertility of crops for the next few years..things like this) and grafted on their own ideas of what witches and demons got up to at night.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>If the cultural millieu of the medieval ages was replete with images of witches, demons and sorcery, as this theory presupposes - tales which the Inquisitors could have drawn on to create the cultura chimera that drove the witch hunts - you are describing a cultural landscape which nurtures images of malevolent witchcraft and sorcery. <br><br>Again - if the Inquisitors could internalise those images and put them into practice to justify widespread torture and executions - it stands to logic that others could as well. <br><br>There are grimoires and books on demonology and necromancy from the dark and middle ages. We know that there was a subculture of occultism and black magick - nurtured perhaps largely by deviant monks and priests, who were (after all!) the only people who could write those books. Pope Innocent made an edict against devil worship amongs the clergy in the 9th century! We don't know how prevalent this subculture was, but it was there. <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>3. Inquisitors took some folks legends and ALSO some other stuff that more nearly resembles what we call RA or Satan worship which they discovered in their investigations but then ended up making LOTS of innocent people confess to these crimes.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>What I don't think we should loose sight of is that - if RA is being practiced now, it was probably being practiced then - <br><br>and therefore stories of young women "waking up" in the middle of the forest at night, unable to account for how they got there, before engaging in a group ritual that included sex witih Satan in a "dreamlike" state ... may inhabit the cultural consciousness <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>but that doesn't preclude them from being drawn from</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> factual accounts of dissociative ritual trauma. <br><br>You only have to observe the monthly cycle of an RA survivor, and watch their PTSD symptoms cycle up around the full moon, equinoxes and solstices, to start wondering about where the "folk tales" come from. So I guess what I'm saying is that the distinction that you are drawing here between "folk tales" and "other stuff resembling RA/Satanism" might not be as discrete as you suggest.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>4. The stories started as manufactured by the Inquisitors but then others looking to embrace "the dark side" decided the stories were true and desired to participate in these rituals.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Documentation of these practices pre-dates the Inquisition by many centuries, and we know that they were being practiced at the time (at least by a priestly elite), so I doubt this.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>5. My favorite pet theory...that inquisitors (who did engage in torture or at least employ those who did, after all) were simply projecting their own evil practices onto the torture victims.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>There's some interesting work around on the dynamics of torture. I suspect we are all capable of it if we've been victimised enough - the "containment theory" of sadism suggests that we hurt others in order to see them experience the same trauma that we have, thus creating a momentary "it's not me" sense of relief, superiority and escape. <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>real evidence that not only were there rituals but that the group was also providing "poison for hire" services or something like that.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>The "Affair of the Poisons" documents a similar phenomenon in the court of Louis XIV in 17th century France - a network of people providing abortions, poisons, spells and practicing Black Masses. It's interesting that, historically, ritualistic abuse goes hand-in-hand with the most profitable and transgressive crimes eg it was poison a few centuries ago, but now it's porn/prostitution/drugs ... not to mention a whole lot of blackmail.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Suffice it to say that it is painstaking both in its sourcing of material and in critiquing his own arguments along the way...acknowledging weaknesses and drawing fairly clear lines between what is supported and what must remain speculation. I think you would like it.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Sounds good - I'll see if I can pick it up. <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Back to this case at hand....I don't like Crowley...so I've never been comfortable with Wicca. It's actually a little strange (well, maybe not) that Debbie got hooked up with this coven. Usually, she has said she's "pagan" and not really Wiccan.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>After Wicca, I moved into the reconstructionist movement within paganism, which looked at pre-Christian faiths as authentic and viable religions. It suited me better and I credit it for re-launching my intellectual interest after my adolescence effectively shut it down. It got me reading Plato and Aeschylus and basically opened up philosophy and art (and sciences and maths) for me.<br><br>So I'm not anti-alternative religion at all. But I left Wicca because it had such a cultic millieu to it - and I practiced it on three continents. In Melbourne, they were having BDSM parties in which the "high priestess" wandered around naked with a strap-on. In England, it was as shallow as a children's wading pool in some areas, and then in others, it was sex magick and hypnosis and Crowley. In America, it was fluffy Unitarian commericalism with a weird Protestant self-perfection ethos. <br><br>The fact that the BDSM and ritual sex has been boiled out of Wicca by 70s feminist spiritualism and 90s commercialism doesn't make Wicca OK. Is Scientology OK because most believers don't know that Hubbard was a paedophile and a practicing Satanist?<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But if they do come, at least I can meet them and get some sense of them. If they strike me like that Highlander wannabe...they gotta go.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Power to you - sounds like the only way to go. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=biaothanatoi@rigorousintuition>biaothanatoi</A> at: 6/27/06 11:47 pm<br></i>
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Re: cutting

Postby havanagilla » Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:57 am

so Biao, you have been part of a cult yourself ? how long did you practice this kind of BDSM cult/paganism ? did you get in it as bad as offneding or witnessing offenses of sex hypnosis and magick ?<br><br>After Wicca, I moved into the reconstructionist movement within paganism, which looked at pre-Christian faiths as authentic and viable religions. It suited me better and I credit it for re-launching my intellectual interest after my adolescence effectively shut it down. It got me reading Plato and Aeschylus and basically opened up philosophy and art (and sciences and maths) for me.<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>So I'm not anti-alternative religion at all. But I left Wicca because it had such a cultic millieu to it - and I practiced it on three continents. In Melbourne, they were having BDSM parties in which the "high priestess" wandered around naked with a strap-on. In England, it was as shallow as a children's wading pool in some areas, and then in others, it was sex magick and hypnosis and Crowley. In America, it was fluffy Unitarian commericalism with a weird Protestant self-perfection ethos.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=havanagilla>havanagilla</A> at: 6/27/06 11:59 pm<br></i>
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