Are RA perps 'Satanists', 'paedophiles' or something else?

by **biaothanatoi** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:22 am

In my admittedly obsessive trawling of the Internet for information on ritual abuse, I've come across two very interesting pieces recently. The first is an <a href="http://www.radicalparty.org/belgium/x1_eng7.htm" target="top">interview with Regina Louf</a>, former child prostitute and police witness in the Belgium paedophile scandal. Her comments about the role of Satanism in the perpetrator network are illuminating: "Alright then, Satanism. Put yourself in the torturers’ shoes. When they received new victims into their network, it was extremely important that they shouldn’t speak to anyone about what had happened to them. That’s why they organised ‘ceremonies’. They took the victim to a heavily guarded house and convinced her that it was ‘her’ party. There would then be a great performance with masks, candles, inverted crosses, swords and animals. Rabbits were disembowelled, the blood was poured on naked girls, and some men and women worshipped the devil. We, the experienced girls, were doubled up with laughter when we saw them busy with their carnival masks. ‘They’ve got their vampire costumes on again,’ we would say. I don’t think the torturers got much pleasure out of it. They preferred to be completely naked rather than going round in latex costumes. The only aim of these rituals was to totally disorient the victims. They plagued these kids with a load of nonsense - ‘Now you are the wife of Satan’ – and also gave them coke, LSD or heroin. I can assure you that after that you feel completely outside the real world. That was the aim – that the victim herself should begin to doubt the fact that all this had really happened. The result was that the victims didn’t dare speak to anyone." The next is a conversation earlier this year between <a href="http://groups.google.com/group/alt.satanism/browse_frm/thread/6fd2265e400ba512/3afdb5d8390e66fd?lnk=st&q=satanic+cults+%22dangerous+people%22&rnum=4&hl=en#3afdb5d8390e66fd" target="top">two Satanists on alt.satanism,</a> regarding the absence of committed Satanists in the newsgroup and in 'Satanism' at large. “There are MANY self-identifying satanists, hundreds of them, that I have also run into over the years. NONE of them were people I'd want to have anything to do with and none of them were in any of the orgs. Some claimed to be - but they turned out to be liars when I asked the orgs if these people were members … They far outnumber people in public (known) orgs out there. FAR outnumber them … The self identifying Satanists that make cults don't tend to do anything via the internet. They are also dangerous people, Ryan. They take "Satan" to heart.” It's an interesting perspective from within Satanism. It rings quite true for me - I've never known someone who stayed within Satanism for more then a year or two. The poster here is suggesting that he's been around Satanism for a while and has come into contact with an underground body of Satanists - the 'dangerous', 'self-identified' Satanists who see online mailing lists and official organisations as 'alt.silly'. An criminological outline is forming of a strata of crime that is co-inhabited by Satanists, sadists, pornographers and pimps, where the line between sadistic practice and belief blurs. Are these men 'Satanists'? 'Paedophiles'? Rouf claims that the perpetrator's motivation can't be reduced down to simple labels - their central interest was in pushing the boundaries of sexual experience and the infliction of pain: "Whether you were five, ten, or fifteen didn’t matter. What mattered to them was sex, power, experience. To do things they would never have tried with their own wives. Among them there were some real sadists."

by **jenz** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:35 am

my own feelings are along the lines of the Regina Louf piece. That the satanism dresses up the crime, (Met 'joke' is "if you want to get away with child abuse, wear a funny hat and chant something"). However, there are people whose opinions I respect, who believe that 'they' do believe. I think going down that avenue leads quickly to examining what is the nature of 'belief' in the context of religious or philosophical experience. I cannot consider as a genuine credo something as obviously life defeating, but others have a different take on this. Sadism as such is self reinforcing as providing a kind of empowerment, partly because of adrenalin rush, partly because of seeing fear in others, but also because of the things you can buy in our consumer society, with the money acquired by the criminal exploitation that goes along with it. That makes the perpetrators feel better than the workers. in the thread which began with a posting by someone who named his/her self as moonshine, and in several other threads which have circled the topic of sadistic abuse, satanic or otherwise, it is evident from the contributions of other posters, that the acceptance of a link between sadistic acts, or non consensual acts, as being a part of sexual experience is accepted far more widely than I would have thought possible. This acceptance is dressed up as a tolerance, but to me, it reveals a desensitisation to harming others, and an inner mental confusion about personal traits and motives. less contraversially, these same desensitisations are apparent in acceptance of violent images of death, and of the existence of torture. At the back of all of this is money and control. My take on this comes from the personal experience of ra being used as damage limitation by persons in govt involved in illegal arms deals. naturally, as the images are pushed out over the internet as mass marketing, there will also be try this at home types, who are not initially connected to the criminal organisations. Jeff's piece today confronts the question of non investigation of criminal acts dressed up in fantastic guise. This has been going on for so very long now, and we are still allowing it. Part of that allowing , I submit, comes from something like the nice guy's fear of being labelled a rapist. Its easier to treat those who report sexual crime as fantasists than to face up to the dangers inherent in giving headspace to their allegations. Those dangers include a heartsearching about own behaviour and motivations. Its a bit like not blaming the rich for tax evasion, because if you won the lottery you would be doing your best to hang on tight to the dosh too.

by **Homeless Halo** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:10 am

Indeed, you probably deal with all sorts of people once you start getting into the murkier parts of these depths. I don't think a single label could be used to describe the multitude of practices/mindsets that must exist among the inordinately large number of people who would need to be involved in this sort of thing on a large scale. You'd expect to see this sort of thing where organized crime, cults, and the "shadow govt" elements mingle. Probably all sorts of weirdos who believe all sorts of odd things, and besides a large number of people who are merely using the weirdos as a screen.

by **hmm** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:24 am

maybe i am overstating the obvious but the perps are male. why must man rape murder and pillage? why does a "normal" man get turned on by a porn movie? i remember well the first porn movie i saw.. i wasn't so much shocked by the acts i saw,i was shocked by the empty eyes of the girl in the film, and i remember thinking does nobody else see this? and millions watch these films regulary to get "turned on" something else Regina Louf said in the interview: "Was your procurer a paedophile? XI: "He was about as much a paedophile as I was clear-minded. I find the expression ‘paedophile network’ misleading. ~snip~ What mattered to them was sex, power, experience. ~snip~ "Don’t get me wrong. I took part in a lot of murderous orgies, but more often in orgies that had no aim except blackmail. The ‘hard core’ consisted of about forty people, at most. There were a few hundred blackmail victims, perhaps thousands." This is what i think its about,power and control. ritualised "sex" as a control method.

by **Connut** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:43 am

is what it seems to be all about. All those poor little egos with no-one to demonstrate their "great" abilities on, the life failures, with the pathetic need to lord it over others, these seem to be the key players in Satanism. I can just imagine how Crowley had to go so far overboard to rise to the top in order to impress the little fish under him, like the little kid jumping off higher and higher obstacles on a dare. For those in political power, the control mechanism seems to be key plus a big emphasis on blackmail as a controlling force. Cathy O'Brien's book, "Trance: Formation of America" gives a great sampling of the methods used to create enormous fear to gain control. It's a hair-raising read. The opposite of love is fear, not hatred. Fear removes the ability to act, while hatred and anger are a spur to action. Breathe deep, it's going to be ok!

by **jenz** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:16 pm

hmm, just as a matter of fact, not all perps are male, though the great majority are. in operating at some levels, having females in the group works, and not all of these are entirely victim. Even though the line between perp and victim gets blurred in ra, because the method is to drag forcibly the innocent across that line, some women do stay in these groups as far as it is possible to tell, by their own volition, perpetrating sadism and facilitating it, not enduring it themselves that is. Having said that, all the 'obvious' things you said about power play I endorse. it is the great question. I think that at some level, some, most or all men , do not think of women as being their equals, as thinking feeling beings, and at some level do not hear or see them. To defeat ra and its related politics, it needs that the issues, such as those you raise, are addressed honestly , especially by men. because by and large, men still hold the power in society. it behoves those who feel that they do not hold power to consider what the options are - should they perpetuate a society based on being the most powerful - and strive to get further up the pecking order, or should they strive for a different solution. There has to be change at a micro level if there is to be change at a macro level. So what you call stating the obvious is not perhaps obvious at all. A con trick is being played on us all, and that con locks in to the male power fantasy .

by **professorpan** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:22 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>why does a "normal" man get turned on by a porn movie?<hr></blockquote> Because men are, by and large, stimulated by visual sexual material. Most men, whether they admit it or not, are excited by sexually explicit material. It's hardwired. I don't think there's anything wrong with porn, as long as the parties involved are consenting. Porn is nothing new, either -- it's been around a very long time. The societal effects of the overabundance of porn, however, especially on the Net, is another subject entirely.

by **israelirealities** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:40 pm

I used to think a lot about it, male female whose the bad "guy", i have seen enough women in the sadism business to change my instictive response on several issues. However, you can never know what women would be like without discrimination and dependence on men for livelihood. it reminds me of the constant "noise" in my mind, through teens, debating "my mother is the devil" (and dad is a victim) and then the next day, it switched...can get you pretty messed up. Truth is, looking at it now, mostly women are more susceptible to dissociation which makes them more easily manipulated (until a certain age). But then men have another little secret - they usually do not admit, to themselves as well, that they were coerced into something, they'd rather "own it", and so sometimes, I think many victims become false "perps", in the sense that they assume that role in order not to feel humiliated and subjugated. I read a fascinating report, by HUman Rights Watch, on pervalence of sex offenses in US prisons. it turns out that the men who are raped (the weaker ones) are then called "women" and gradually assume a feminine posture, which also allows them to process the rape from a more self accepting position. I also noticed, with respect to myself, that through or before being controlled, i was led to tap into a "male" role, I don't know if this is only me, or it is part of programming and controlling women and getting them to feel divorced from their self, or feminine protective responses. It could also be effects of drugs or other chemicals. Just a thought out there. Being more "male" allows for the removal of the "head" from "the body", and for the removal of a person from their "home" both symbolic and physical. which is necessary in order to maintain control. (THe post in the RI blog about "many homeless people" resonated with my experience on how one's psyche is "kidnapped" and sent too high on a trip). Traditional accounts of diabolic possession also tell of "splitting" between mind and body, the feminine is split and in the crack comes the "devil". Now we talk about the destruction of the connection between the chakras, especially the effect of mercury on the third eye etc. But the technique is symbolic, this is also how I read DID and MPD and all those symptoms of dissociation as a result of trauma. Perhaps men adn women dissociate differently

by **Homeless Halo** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:59 pm

Certainly men and women, who do so many conscious things differently, would dissociate differently, and probably under different kinds of stiumli at differing rates. re: porn. I don't see a huge connection between porn and RA type violence, outside of the odd area wherein the two are the same, that is, perhaps someone filiming the abuse of others. Consensual crimes are not crimes. I think the demonization of adult procurement of adult pornography and marketable sex greatly contributes to the difficulties in catching the weirdoes who harm children, because the normal pervs(everyone) don't want you to know where they've been 'cause their preacher might find out. I think flipping some lights on these cellars could do the roach problem some good. I'll try to stay away from the Crowley comment, as he somehow always manages to get dragged into the RA commentaries, despite his lack of connection to them. He's spooky though, so we may as well throw him in with all the "satanists". Doesn't matter that he was never "powerful" and that he died penniless with nil followers except the Wiccans and that the people who "represent" him today didn't exist till 30yrs after he died. Its always best to just assume that whatever odd theory we hear him connected to today must be true(like Jeff's bad detective work in his Ripper blog, no offense, Jeff). I try not to be offended. But "we" don't blame Jesus everytime one of YOUR priests abuses a child. Cheers. Love is the Law, SHCR

by **israelirealities** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:43 pm

I didn't yet find anything written on the gender differences in dissociation except everyone mentions that are more women, and that they usually "regroup" around 35. This data sort of backs up conservative religious precepts and concepts about women needing extra protection from themselves when they are still considered "sexually attractive" to men. The biological fact that men are stimulated by visuals, corresponds with the JEwish/Moslem custom of covering women, etc. In our region, at least, even feminists sometimes prefer that women remain discriminated against under religious law rather than violated and reduced to sex-slaves under secular-militarized/nationalist societies. REligious fundamentalism at least reduced the more extreme forms for sexual abuse, SRA and all that great stuff. Crowley is considered Christian mysticism/occult ?

by **Homeless Halo** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:41 pm

Crowley called his "religion" Thelema. He considered himself a Christian mystic. Most Christains consider him a Satanist. His is a minority religion here, as heavily insitutionalized as the others, likewise pushing the non-extremists to the fringes instead of vice versa. Thelema is a series of Occult teachings and yogic techniques, mainly derived from Eastern sources, Sufism, and Old Western Occultism, it is the prelude to modern Wiccan witch covens, related to Freemasonry, and derives its "dogmas" from Sumer. It is somewhat complicated. As a Thelemite, I can say that we do not believe in Sumer, and anyone who uses our religion as an excuse for child abuse is in violation of our law as well. We do not believe in Satan. Neither did Crowley. Most of this is just misunderstandings. Likewise the Philosophical(LaVeyan) "upstanding" Satanists do not believe in Satan either. They're mostly just dirty people, like the rest of us. We consider it a blessing to name the true sins of Crowley, but it is another thing entirely to make baseless assertions. BTW, we do not worship Crowley either. Technically, we "worship"(work for, function as we are intended to) the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Ishamel. Our rites are nearly identical, but are practiced ecumenically. I suppose their probably aren't many Thelemites in Israel, eh? Magicians are a dime a dozen in America, Thelemites are only a quarter. Cheers. -SHCR

by **israelirealities** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:27 pm

thanks I ran a very quick google in Israel re thelema, and found some posts, websites and stuff. Thanks to you i know now there are groups of pagans, wiccans and what not, here. I didn't see a thelema practitioner/group, its mostly wiccans (Israeli ladies who spent some formative years in northern california...) and such like. Yes, Crowly is one of those golden dawn/hermetic brits...I know the outlines of the time/people of that clique. Very creative people, should be engaged in art, rather than politics. I read some of Anna Kingsford/Edward Maitland "visions" and stuff about Hermetic tradition. Couldn't understand a word, except that its highly creative and would better not be mixed with politics. Not good for fine souls. There is a connection between this eccentric golden dawn group and Israel, as Lord Oliphant (sp?) and some other amateur occultists, who messed up in politics/colonialism/military intelligence/ had some bizarre notions about ISrael, I don't remember precisely what they were. There are several books and articles about it, since the Brittish gentry ruled Israel. Recently, a book published in NY, by an Israeli scholar exposed very disturbing facts about the influence of Brittish intelligence (not intelligenzia) in Palestine, and how one of our acclaimed national heros, Sara Ahronson, (who helped the Brittish army conquer Palestine from the Turks, was caught, tortured and executed by the Turks for it) - was actually part of a sexually perverse (possibly pedophilic as well, I didn't read the book only the reviews) cult/group, sponsored by the Brittish military. there were weird things going on here, and I think the rather naive bunch of early ZIonist settlers to Palestine were not equipped, mentally, to meet the Brittish decadence AND finess (if this is not a contradiction). probably the same is happening now with the Christian Evangelics. So, the spirit of Crowly is present here in ISrael, and recently is very "hip" in some elite/artistic circles here as well. Personally, I feel that Magick stuff is bad for me, as I am not grounded enough to handle it. I'd rather move towards the arts, as befits women from the Middle East, along with cooking, pottery and other "grounding" activities. I am taking one caveat from my JEwish elders - do not mess with the occult until you are at least 40, married and well grounded. And if you happen to be a woman, add some additional conditions, can't think of them now. Which reminds me its time to go and do the dishes... The website I saw here says that - Magic, in Pagan religions, replaces prayer, because there is no "god outside the self". This is what made the Rabbis and the Christian clergy equate it to satanism. The Jews said that Pharao was wrong because he said that God is within him. Frankly, with some people (ie Bush, Hitler etc.,) the notion that God is within them is rather frightening, better let them think it isnt anywhere near. Whether God is inside or upthere...I don't have enough money to indulge in these thoughts at all. good night. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=israelirealities@rigorousintuition>israelirealities</A> at: 10/21/05 6:32 pm

by **biaothanatoi** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:30 pm

I'm wary of reducing the motivation behind RA down to pleasure-power-profit, because I think that's too 'neat' an answer. My friend has been disclosing recently about ritual scenarios involving the 'red ones' and the 'white ones' - where the 'bad slaves' are painted in a substance that she identifies as blood, and the 'good slaves' are painted entirely in white. While we can clearly relate this to the perp's symbolic languages around power, control and slavery, there is an element of perverse creativity at work here that goes far beyond a 'rational' profit/pleasure motive. As much as Louf talks about 'dress up' rituals to scare the new girls, we know that Dutroux was in contact with a Satanic order ("Abrasax") who required "gifts" (people) for their high priestess. I'm comfortable with some sort of continuum of RA belief, although, ultimately, behaviour and motivation remains more or less the same. It's probably just a game of semantics. Jenz talked about the role that male fantasy around power/domination/self-realisation has to play here, and I'd agree. We had these sigils painted in our rooms last week, and it all rang a little hollow for me. I think it was designed to throw us off, to be honest - make us think of them as a cult when they are something else. It was just all a bit obvious. Still confused ... pissed off ... They got her last night for the first time in months. She actually slipped out the window while I was in the lounge room. Excuse the uncharacteristic emoticon use. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/mad.gif ALT=">:"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/mad.gif ALT=">:"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/mad.gif ALT=">:"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/mad.gif ALT=">:"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/mad.gif ALT=">:"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/mad.gif ALT=">:"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/mad.gif ALT=">:"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/mad.gif ALT=">:">

by **jenz** » Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:55 am

some of those I care about have been having a bad time recently too, I am putting it down to time of year. I tend to think of the belief aspect of ra as being a little like the relationship between belief and what happens in established churches. I don't want to milk this analogy too far, but obviously churches have served secular political and financial ends, and if you took a survey of the congretion in Westminster Abbey at a State occasion, how many of those present would be there for affirmation of belief, and how far has belief been distorted to serve other ends? Analogy breaks down for me at the point of looking at the substance of the belief itself - the one is essentially life affirming, and co-operative, the other cannot be. that places it, inmho, outside the parameters of what can be held to be a genuine belief; and so leads me to think that it is manufactured for a purpose, a catch all to increase terror, to numb the credulous, to instill the destructive processes of enslavement and abuse. Colour coding is one of the techniques used - I'm sure you know this Biao. elsewhere on this board there was some discussion about the hijacking of symbolism, for commercial use. well, sra hijacks symbolism - colour symbolism, christian symbolism, anything handy. Sorry, I feel overwhelmingly that these people, dangerous though they are, are fundamentally pathetic, dismal half beings, incapable of emotional bonding, empathy, or spiritual understanding, intellectually impoverished - caught in a spiral of sensation addiction and money grubbing, and unable to understand that their agenda is not shared by the rest of humanity. To respond to HHs remarks on pornography, I just don't know if I agree that what people call harmless porn, (who decides?) should be more openly available and that that would stifle the truly nasty stuff. But I am sure that the pathetics draw sustenance for their belief that they are somehow cleverer than the rest of us from the thought that since people seek out porn, they are in some sense 'like them' but just not clever or cool enough to get the really good stuff. The relative permissivenes of our society, and the lowering of barriers has desensitised people, and fudged issues. (Not claiming to have the answers here) There is much talk of population reduction as a goal. Well, recently, I have not been aboe to rid myself of the thought that if it is, then they must have decided WOMEN AND CHILDREN FIRST. which makes sense, and resonates with sra in all its forms. it is a negation of the creating and nurturing facet of femininity, a reduction of these beings to the role of slave to the sensation seeking of others, usually adult men. isn't all pornography a bit like that?

by **veritas** » Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:41 am

<a href="http://www.nationalvanguard.org/printer.php?id=4330">www.nationalvanguard.org/...hp?id=4330</a> They know.

Are RA perps 'Satanists', 'paedophiles' or something else?

Are RA perps 'Satanists', 'paedophiles' or something else?

satanists

commonalities

Re: something else,they are men...

Power and Control

stating the obvious

porn

Re: stating the obvious

but of course;

Re: but of course;

IR

Re: IR

Religion and RA

got

prussian blue

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