Steven Spielberg, Jennifer Love Hewitt and Diana Napolis

by **professorpan** » Wed May 10, 2006 1:52 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Among other things, Pan was stating categorically that the rapper CD cover depicting the WTC attack was ONLY a coincidence.<hr></blockquote> Not quite. I have seen zero evidence that it was anything other than a coincidence. If someone can present an iota of evidence that it was *not* a coincidence, I'd love to see it. Barring any evidence, we might as well assume that the band members orchestrated the attacks themselves. Or that they're using psychotronic remote viewing techniques and saw into the future. Or that their graphic designer is a time traveler. And so forth, ad nauseum. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>he thing that is odd, in my opinion, is Pan vehemently precluding that possibility.<hr></blockquote> I'm vehemently suggesting that speculation not be confused with evidence.

by **rothbardian** » Wed May 10, 2006 2:08 pm

I don't want to hijack this thread. (Maybe it's peetered out anyway?) Anyone feel free to take it back to the original Napolis subject but... ...to comment on your statement, Pan-- my perception is that you have it precisely wrong. You state: "Living in an evidence-based world is more difficult than living in an "I think it's so, therefore I believe it's so" world." My perception is that YOU are the one who (for example) "thinks" there is no connection between the Titan story and the Titanic sinking...and therefore you "believe it is so". But you offer no "evidence" for your belief. Meanwhile, without getting into any evidence and simply looking at the BIG Picture of how this world works....based on previous precedents, there would seem to be as much chance of a Titan/Titanic connection...as not. Wasn't there money to be made in the building AND sinking of the Titanic? Look at how the Mafia has worked in the past--- Some guy puts out his life savings to build a restaurant and the Mafia makes money by forcing him to use their construction workers. After the restaurant is up and running, the Mafia muscles in on the operation and takes ownership. Later they burn it down and collect the insurance.

by **professorpan** » Wed May 10, 2006 2:37 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>My perception is that YOU are the one who (for example) "thinks" there is no connection between the Titan story and the Titanic sinking...and therefore you "believe it is so". But you offer no "evidence" for your belief.<hr></blockquote> Ai yi yi... Do I think it's likely that the fiction writer knew in advance of a plot to sink the Titanic and wrote about it, either as a warning or for some other purpose? I find that to be very improbable. That would require that the Titanic disaster was purposely controlled, that it was not an accident (as witnesses and crew members attest); that some members of the crew deliberately steered their ship into an iceberg, knowing they would possibly die; that no one involved in such a plot ever confessed; that no one has ever discovered an inkling of the plot... and so on up down the rabbit hole of improbability. So, no, I think it's MUCH more likely that it was an interesting coincidence. If you can find a shred of evidence to suggest otherwise -- other than your speculation, however logical it seems to you -- please, do present it. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Look at how the Mafia has worked in the past--- Some guy puts out his life savings to build a restaurant and the Mafia makes money by forcing him to use their construction workers. After the restaurant is up and running, the Mafia muscles in on the operation and takes ownership. Later they burn it down and collect the insurance. <hr></blockquote> Ummm, yeah. That's because we have evidence, testimony, and confessions that have shown us how the Mafia works.

by **rothbardian** » Wed May 10, 2006 2:44 pm

Good for you , Pan. You're beginning the reasoning process. My only point was that you ORIGINALLY stated the Titan/Titanic 'coincidence' as a foregone conclusion and as fact. FWIW-- even here in your opening salvos about the official Titanic story, you're relying heavily and presumptuously on main stream versions of the Titanic story. Here at RI that is generally considered to be a big 'boo boo'.

by **FourthBase** » Wed May 10, 2006 3:12 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Barring any evidence, we might as well assume that the band members orchestrated the attacks themselves. Or that they're using psychotronic remote viewing techniques and saw into the future. Or that their graphic designer is a time traveler. And so forth, ad nauseum.<hr></blockquote> B.O.G.U.S.

by **professorpan** » Wed May 10, 2006 3:58 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Good for you , Pan. You're beginning the reasoning process. <hr></blockquote> Sigh. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>FWIW-- even here in your opening salvos about the official Titanic story, you're relying heavily and presumptuously on main stream versions of the Titanic story. Here at RI that is generally considered to be a big 'boo boo'.<hr></blockquote> Umm, since when was there a code of thinking required for admission to this club? And how do you define mainstream? There's a mainstream consensus that the Earth is round, but you can find plenty of people to argue otherwise. I'm not impressed by your style of reasoning, roth.

by **rothbardian** » Thu May 11, 2006 3:43 am

I wasn't quite sure what your sighing was about (?). I hope you're OK. I think I'm concluding though, that your debate style consists largely of artful (or not so artful?) dodging, to be quite frank. My point still stands-- To present the Titan/Titanic 'coincidence' as a foregone conclusion and as a fact (as you did) is an illogical prejudgment. And in the context of this website (RI) where it's all about NOT jumping to conclusions, it's quite odd. And as to the CD cover (The Coup) again-- powerful and influential people organized and orchestrated this massive, murderous WTC attack...but they couldn't arrange a little 'insider' bragging with this CD cover? That is ludicrous. Again, I'm not saying there WAS any connection but...you are setting up a strange and artificial 'difficulty factor' in saying that it is virtually impossible for the PTB who were involved in the WTC attack to have arranged this piddly little CD cover. It makes no sense. And finally, I wasn't clear on what issues you were struggling with at the end of your post: A "code of thinking"? And "admissions" to a "club"? You make it sound like you're under heavy persecution. My simple point was that there is only one version of the Titanic story-- which is that it was an accident. I have learned long ago to question ANY mainstream version of ANY event. I don't know why you wouldn't also. Here at RI (and other places) we learn that there is a 'backstory' to so many things going on in the world. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out someday that there was a sinister/criminal element to the Titanic story. You, by contrast, have a curious upfront ridiculing mode, for anyone who steps forward with doubts or questions about any number of 'official versions' of things.

by **FourthBase** » Thu May 11, 2006 2:21 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Again, I'm not saying there WAS any connection but...you are setting up a strange and artificial 'difficulty factor' in saying that it is virtually impossible for the PTB who were involved in the WTC attack to have arranged this piddly little CD cover. It makes no sense.<hr></blockquote> Exactly. Now just ignore him if you're smart.

by **professorpan** » Thu May 11, 2006 3:13 pm

Roth <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I wasn't quite sure what your sighing was about (?). I hope you're OK. I think I'm concluding though, that your debate style consists largely of artful (or not so artful?) dodging, to be quite frank.<hr></blockquote> That's a crock. I have presented a reasonably constructed argument against certain theories, and provided actual evidence to back myself up. That isn't dodging. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>My point still stands-- To present the Titan/Titanic 'coincidence' as a foregone conclusion and as a fact (as you did) is an illogical prejudgment. And in the context of this website (RI) where it's all about NOT jumping to conclusions, it's quite odd.<hr></blockquote> Whatever happened to the "rigorous" part of the board? I see lots of half-baked speculation and jumping to conclusions. So I present my viewpoint, back it up with the best evidence available to me, and try to show the logic behind my conclusions. And get told to fuck off and told I'm sucking my own dick when someone disagrees. I didn't know that's what this board was about -- toeing the party line or getting insulted when someone doesn't agree. Whatever, I'm not here to have my ego stroked or to get affirmations from others. I believe the evidence that the Titanic hit an iceberg accidentally and sank is convincing, and I've never seen anything to indicate the Titan story was literally connected to it. Why the fuck is that an illogical prejudgment? Ditto the Coup album cover controversy and the Lone Gunmen episode. I think I've shown -- with support, mind you -- that explanations not involving collusion or advance knowledge can explain what happened. But the typical reply has either been "fuck off, ignore him" or "but you don't KNOW it wasn't a plot, so how are you so sure?" I long ago learned to question the official version. I've also learned to question the alternative versions. It's unfortunate that so many conspiracy-oriented people overcome their own biases in search of the truth. But that's the way dogmatists of any belief system work -- if you contradict their beliefs, they'll call you an asshole, question your motives, and urge others to ignore you. That's pathetic.

by **professorpan** » Thu May 11, 2006 3:16 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Exactly. Now just ignore him if you're smart.<hr></blockquote> Yes, ignore those you disagree with... that's a good way to have a dialogue. You can tell a lot about someone by how they deal with challenges to their beliefs. I pity you, Fourth, that a simple disagreement gets your panties so knotted that you start pushing for censorship.

by **FourthBase** » Thu May 11, 2006 3:28 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I think I've shown -- with support, mind you -- that explanations not involving collusion or advance knowledge can explain what happened.<hr></blockquote> Yes, OF FUCKING COURSE you have. And yet...wait for it... There are explanations that DO involve collusion or advance knowledge that ALSO can explain what happened. And those explanations are not necessarily what you caricaturize them as! Your possible explanations are NOT the final word, jackass. Your conjecture is not magically "evidence", "support", "facts". Do you realize that I'm fighting you because YOU are being presumptuous and obnoxiously self-righteous, underneath all your pseudo-reasonableness? <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I pity you, Fourth, that a simple disagreement gets your panties so knotted that you start pushing for censorship.<hr></blockquote> Suggesting to people that they ignore your bullshit is not censorship, you ignorant prick. It's advice. They can heed it or not. You can post all you fucking want, I'm not stopping you. I'm just not listening to the bullshit. My choice. Their choice. Your choice. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=fourthbase>FourthBase</A> at: 5/11/06 1:31 pm

by **professorpan** » Thu May 11, 2006 4:24 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>There are explanations that DO involve collusion or advance knowledge that ALSO can explain what happened. And those explanations are not necessarily what you caricaturize them as. Your possible explanations are NOT the final word, jackass. Your conjecture is not magically "evidence", "support", "facts".<hr></blockquote> Okay, one last time, and apologies for those who are getting fed up with this. You suggested that the Lone Gunmen episode involved advance knowledge of the WTC attacks, and referred me to an interview with Haglund. I listened to the interview. I even took the time to transcribe it so I wouldn't be accused of talking out of my ass. Haglund clearly states that the episode's connection to 9/11 was coincidental. He also says that the writers took ideas in popular conspiracy culture and combined them to make an exciting plot. He also said that people in the FBI and NASA liked the X-Files and would suggest material when they came into contact with the writers, and that fans at NASA named some robots after the program. I didn't find anything unusual about that, and stated so. You also suggested that The Coup CD cover might have been another example of complicity/foreknowledge. Boots Riley of the groups says: "Well, first the album got pulled. Second, people seem to be talking about this because the blast shown in the picture is on the same level and general area of where the planes crashed. When we originally made that picture it was in May and June. It was supposed to be a metaphor to symbolize us destroying 'capitalism'." <a href="http://www.daveyd.com/bootsonthewarpolitics.html">www.daveyd.com/bootsonthe...itics.html</a> It's a great interview, and Boots is very critical of U.S. imperalism, media control, and covert CIA intervention. Definitely worth reading. When I take the time to discuss or write about something, I try to do more than just make assertions, particularly on a board where there are lots of interesting people and varying viewpoints. That's what I did. You didn't like what I wrote, so you got defensive and started hurling insults. I'll let others decide who is being fair-minded and reasonable, and who is being a jackass.

by **FourthBase** » Thu May 11, 2006 4:35 pm

Moron: you're suggesting that because Haglund says it was coincidental and Boots says it was coincidental, that well...it's coincidental!!!!??? That's "evidence"? That precludes the possibility of anything else? Are you out of your fucking mind???? Go to hell, I'm really done with you about this.

by **Rigorous Intuition** » Thu May 11, 2006 5:01 pm

And really, I think the world is weird enough that synchronicity and morphogenetic fields account for this phenomenon far better than hypothesizing a micromanaged foreshadowing by a necessarily huge circle of conspirators simply for taking the piss out of us. Added to RI radio today: My Favorite Mutiny by The Coup Move, if you got the nerve Lash out for your just desserts It's not just the worth Some of y'all heads up in the clouds I'ma bring y'all back to earth It's black back to birth Bullshit y'all talkin' 'bout Out ya mouth, I'm not concerned Cause y'all got the nerve It's y'all turn like Detroit red When he said he had an ultra perm The long walk to burn your bare heels So they worn your boots The game camouflage like army suits But I can see it more clear cause I came with the coup in here Ring the alarm and form the troops Send 'em out into the world, go to war in a fluke Eye to eye with the enemy you sworn to shoot Now comin' at ya neck sick ya hand, something wrong with me Motherfucker somethin's wrong with you When you cheat just way to smart to question The enemy the brothers of a dark complexion The governments of the world is shark infested They heavy on weaponry like Charelton Heston Man yeah it gets low here uh, real low Know what I'm talkin' 'bout? [Chorus] I ain't rockin' with you, so what what you goin do? (it's my favorite mutiny) I ain't rockin' with you, you're logic does not compute (it's my favorite mutiny) [Boots] Death to the pigs is my basic statement I spit street stories 'til I taste the pavement Tryin' to stay out the pen while we face enslavement Had a foolproof hustle 'til they traced the payments I was grippin' my palm around some shitty rum Tryin' to find psalm number 151 To forget what I'm owed, as I clutch the commode Alright, put down the bottle and come get the guns I get off the chain like Kunta Kinte with a MAC-10 They want us gone like a dollar in a crack den Said at least a track then, seeds & stems Mind cloudy through the wheeze and phlegm I'm get my brain off of that and the Jesus hymns If we waiting for the time to fight, these is thems Tellin' us to relax while they ease it in. We gettin greased again The truth I write is so cold, It'd freeze my pen I'm Boots Riley it's a pleasure to meet you Never let their punk ass ever defeat you They got us on the corner wearin pleather and see thru All y'all's gold mines they wanna deplete you I ain't just fin to rap on the track, I fin to clap on the back And it's been stackin' to that Been a hundred years before iceberg ever lean back in the 'lac Before they told Rosa black in the back Before the CIA told Ricky Ross to put crack in the sack And Gil-Scott tradin' rappin for smack This beat alone should get platinum plaques I'd rather see a million of us ecstatic to scrack 'Cause if we bappin' 'em back we automatically stack [Chorus] [Talib Kweli] This the guy like Truman C[e1] Riq, Boots and me Activate in the community Up in the bay like Huey P It's like a free, it remind me of the B Kder's love for me But beats got it twisted, I'll untangle it Black mind is entwined like the ropes they used to hang us with This is my favorite shit, I came in the game with any way to spit Ya got a questionnaire, who you bangin' with? Take it back to M hotel Throw a step deeper like a poor righteous teacher with holy intellect Killer flow form a real niggaz laughin' and forni fairly at a jigabou at a penitent (???) Once again you can feel hip-hop Underground, still about McGruff Gangsta like, fuck the cops Talib Kweli revolutionary mc, and that ain't about stuff  Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rigorousintuition>Rigorous Intuition</A> at: 5/11/06 3:08 pm

by **FourthBase** » Thu May 11, 2006 5:27 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>And really, I think the world is weird enough that synchronicity and morphogenic fields account for this phenomenon far better than hypothesizing a micromanaged foreshadowing by a necessarily huge circle of conspirators simply for taking the piss out of us.<hr></blockquote> Again, false dichotomy. You're doing the same thing Pan did. There's a number of realistic ways that literal foreknowledge could have informed the LG pilot or Coup cover without it being a caricaturized "micromanaged foreshadowing by a necessarily huge circle of conspirators". Good, bad, or indifferent motives. Word-of-mouth between two or more people. Rumors, leaks, suggestions. The artists, the writers, the producers, or the cover designer, or another random contributor. It would be anyone's guess, but still eminently possible. And those ways are farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr more realistic by any stretch of the normal imagination than a synchronicity or morphogenic confluence. I'm not saying synchronicity and mind-fields aren't possible...there are enough examples to convince me that something could be there. Just as there must be enough examples of government ear-whispering interference in the media to convince that there could be something there. Those are the two polar extremes in this argument/discussion. Somewhere in the realistic middle is the everyday prevalence of gossip, rumors, word-of-mouth, leaks -- what I believe to be the likeliest source of the LG and Coup "coincidences". Do I take Haglund's, or Carter's, or Boots's word for it? Fuck no. I'm not implying anything sinister by that. But why do I need to assume that those guys knew everything that was going on when the show/cover was made? And why would I need to assume that they would want to tell us everything, even if they did know? I don't need to. No one does. And that's not cynicism, just realism.

Steven Spielberg, Jennifer Love Hewitt and Diana Napolis

Re: The other thread

Leaps of faith?

Re: Leaps of faith?

Re: Leaps of faith?

Re: Leaps of faith?

Re: Leaps of faith?

Thinking codes?

Re: Thinking codes?

Re: Thinking codes?

Re: Thinking codes?

Re: Thinking codes?

Re: Thinking codes?

Re: Thinking codes?

I'll take Boots' word

Re: I'll take Boots' word

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