MC/RA and alien abductions

by **Dreams End** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:40 am

I got off on a tangent on bio's thread about Hubbard and abortion rituals. So I moved it here. I think one interesting element to this that puts therapists in a real bind is that RA and MC stories mirror alien abduction stories, right down to the aborted fetuses. In fact, that is a primary element of alien abduction lore that emerged in the nineties. They were not actually aborted in those stories but simply removed and raised by the aliens because they were hybrids. What do you do as a therapist who wants to take RA stories seriously? You want to say that memories such as this, whether or not recovered through therapy, are valid in general if not in all particulars. Then along come people going through a similar process and saying they have specific memories of alien abductions. So much for "recovered memories are valid". Now, there are so many scientific studies now, despite media portrayals, which demonstrate that abuse memories which emerge after a period of amnesia, whether or not recovered through therapy or even hypnosis, are as accurate as continual memories. The case is not even arguable anymore. But to my knowledge, they don't address either RA or alien abduction memories. The latter, of course, cannot be verified, and the former are usually pretty tough to verify. What would YOU do as a therapist who wishes to be a public advocate for victims who have RA memories in the face of arguments that bring up alien abduction. Since I was a kid, I've always wanted to believe in aliens visiting earth...and maybe they are, but I think the cleanest explanation here is that alien abduction stories are really screen memories created during MC experiments. This explanation doesn't completely work, but it does explain a lot. For example, there are many alien abduction stories where the abductees see humans also aboard the "ships" or sometimes even stranger stories where they see aliens but notice the aliens are actually people in masks. An in depth survey of the alien abduction literature, I feel sure, would create a timeline that is even more suggestive that as MC stories started coming into the mainstream this new phenomenon began to rise in prominence. Here's a book that is an online version of "The Controllers" by Martin Cannon. He makes this case. I actually have a copy some very odd people gave me (and since they were UFO true believers, I don't know why) and I remember being intrigued but not convinced entirely. HOWEVER, this is the first book in which I learned about MKUltra and the rest. Now, there are problems with this theory. Without even taking into account folkloric stories that seem to resemble alien abduction, the first "prototype" that I'm aware of was Betty and Barney Hill in 1961. They were on their way somewhere, ran into a bright light, got home with missing time and couldn't remember what happened. According to the accounts, someone suggested hypnotism and they were hypnotised and had stories of aliens and Betty Hill even described what looked like amniocentesis, a needle through the navel. What's interesting here is two things. First, amniocentesis was not yet in practice, so how did she know about it? Secondly, of course, is here is one of our very first alien abduction stories and it goes straight for the uterus, so to speak. One of the things Cannon seizes on in these accounts is how they "advanced" technology of the aliens always seems just a little bit advanced over the times. If you read the accounts I think you'll find that the recollections of the technology on the ships and even descriptions of aliens themselves do tend to change as popular presentations of this in sci fi movies changes. Someone has even done a study of this: <a href="http://www.hedweb.com/markp/ufofilm.htm">"Screen Memories"</a> His perspective if I remember (haven't read this in awhile) is that people interpret weird things in the sky in the light of sci fi films. He also talks about abductions (unfortunately concentrating on what seems to me a complete fraud the "Linda Cortile case). He talks about Betty Hill and the similarities in her account and "Invaders from Mars" a 1953 film. He doesn't say NOTHING happened, as he mentions that the Airforce did report an unknown object at the time this happened. However, he simply suggests the rest is pure fantasy recovered in hypnosis and influenced by movies. Well, there IS another hypothesis which is simply that they were put through an experience and either some play-acting was going on by the perps or else they were simply hypnotized to remember certain details. Another explanation suggests that they simply passed out from some weirdness and in the ensuing hypnosis, gaps were filled in with popular material...evidently Betty Hill had already started reading about UFO's before her hypnosis. In any event, reports of alien abduction and mc/ra stories are too close to ignore. However, there is ONE thing about MC that the others don't have...a paper trail. So even the mainstream must accept that such activities were happening at one time or another. IF you add into this the fact that one of the main people to "validate" these alien memories was Harvard Psychiatrist John Mack, helpfully defended by possible spook Danny Sheehan, and that his contribution to the story was "uncovering" the fact that many abductees are given various "teachings", usually involving revelations of upcoming apocalypse (and yet the details of the end of the world always differ) and if you recall previous discussions here about the emphasis on world cataclysm that seems to be a theme pushed in various new age and cryptofascist mythologies, it speaks of an even larger agenda. Anyway, I'm out of time for now. Be curious about other comments.

by **blanc** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:03 pm

none of the ra accounts I am familiar with would put me in mind of alien abduction stories. I can't know enough about the latter to even begin to comment on them. certainly, there are sometimes some 'impossible' elements in the accounts, but these usually turn out to be all to possible when looked at clearly. the nearest element to 'alien' stories i can call to mind are the presence of spirit guides. but, if you take a young child and subject him or her to trauma, and theatricalities, the fragments of recall which the brain throws up will not always sound like everyday reality. I'm not a therapist, so its not my dilemma. But there are in the cases I know of, some all too real facts - like acquisition of property by the perpetrators, like locations and people checking out. A therapist probably works within a framework which precludes doing legwork on the perpetrators. that should be the job of police, but they (excuse ghastly pun) cop out.

by **blanc** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:30 pm

I think what I am really saying is that accounts have to be evaluated case by case, taking all the facts available. many of the themes which crp up in ra accounts are 'textbook' elements in cases of psychotic delusions.

by **havanagilla** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:57 pm

Blan, that's a very important point, the false division bn 'therapy' and investigation/law. Not only in RA cases, this creates a huge problem for victims of complex crimes (including a "simple incest" case). I see it mainly as the pitfall of psychology/psychiatry and i saw very sad cases. for instance, a client of mine was admitted to psych ward with the usual murky/changeable diagnosis. She alleged incest, and the psychiatrists were even nice enough to put it down a few times and consider it probably. but, this is where it ended. Her treatment didn't include the main factor, namely, that her sense of immediate safey and sense of injustice were major reasons for her condition. So she received the usual drugs and therapy that ignores and skips the "landmines" of reality. Years later, her fater was indicted and found GUILty for the incest of his other daughters (he remarried), and she had a 'spontaneous miraculous" recovery from psychotic illness. The psychiatrists failed to do the most elemntary job and that is to create the bridge between their clinic and "life". They are too lazy and usually pretty much cowards. BTW, there is a huge loophole in most of the legal systems worldwide, re the duty to report child/spousal abuse. All doctors are bound by it, EXCEPT psych wards. --- AS for alien abductions, i can only speak for myself. (perhaps it is more common with Mc than RA), that I had one "incident" that I don't know how to interpret. It was a few years ago when I was under a particularly heavy harassment in my home, so I went to a motel for a few days. In one of the nights, I fell asleep and had a dream/memory (it was not a regular dream but more like an experience that happened while I was sleeping-unconscious) wherein people (explicitly not aliens but humans) went into my room and sucked eggs from my ovaries, for some form of cloning or something. I woke up with a strong feeling that it happened, but then there were no signs of any form of injury. So, while working on "rationalization" i came up with "aliens" or rather alien technology to do that without surgery, but "through the skin" or something very sophisticated. So, it wasn't aliens, but something out of the ordinary. To date, i dont' know what to make of it. Usually, i can make very solid distinctions between dreams and things that actualy happened while I was sedated, and this felt like the latter. --- MC involves something I cannot yet define clearly, it is an ability of perps to instigate a "zombie" condition, namely, that I am totally incapacitated but not in coma/unconscious, ratherlike someone under very deep sedation but still able to "be there" not fully though. I think it would be something like the "rape drug" experience (and perhaps this is what it is, actually). I sometimes felt it was induced via electronic means, or some focused radiation, but that was just a sense of it, no solid evidence. 00 In general, the question of credibility...well, given that most accounts of incest pass as "psychotic hallucinations", this is really not very unique to MC/SRA. Reading holocaust accounts, which I did extensively, is ample froof that the "wow test", is not really accurate. people do incredible things, for very long periods of time, and nobody "beleives" it happens even if the evidence is undisputable. But I know for sure, that programs exist to create those confusing reports, so as to discredit the entire complaint. I was under such programming and I know exactly how it sounds and how it happens in the victim's mind. --- While I would never report aliens (simply because I haven't seen them, and this sole case is negligable compared to the rest of the abuse), but the focus, the continuoum, the choice of details, ...it is all jumbled up to create either a sense of false allegations, madness, or...simply a sense of discomfort. for instance, in my case, I would suddenly get into a compulsion to have severe arguments with the people who took the complaint, and really make them lose their patience or good will. after the fact, I could actualy trace back the events and see where and how it "went off track", usualy, a good sign is becoming very petty, and focusing on "political arguments" for the sake of creating a rift. Another pitfall, in my case, is the EGO. namely, feeling SOOOO vulnerable and worthless is very hard to sustain, so in order to save face or regain control, I would assume a false power, obstruction, revolt, what not, and this would work to subvert the process. that's just simple psychology. I am not sure anyone who hasn't been through this kind of total human degredation, can realy understand how WORTHLESS a victim feels. Every gesture or response is interpreted as demeaning. And regretfully, people tend to do that a lot. I remember one missed op, when I was in a women's shelter, actually in canada I think, and was debriefed by one of the coordinators (I think it was a counsellor, but not a psychologist). She was doing ok, actualy, because those ladies see a lot of incest cases and sexual abuse to know how to speak, BUT then she said, a few times "well, I wouldn't know how it is, cause I never lived in a country that is not a democracy" (refering to my Israeli experiences), she kept saying it and with my already half mad state of mind and suspicion, this sounded like this lady is having a free ride on my condition, and rubbing it in the wounds. etc. etc. I ran away from the shelter and I think it was another MUCHO mistake, even if this lady was an idiot, and perhaps had some crusade (re Israel) where she felt it necessary to spout her shallow political trash in the wrong time/moment.And I am also sure I am deeply wired re Israel, namely, that this is one hell of a "protection shell" program. Feeling obliged to defend the abusers and 'the nation" (as this is one of the motivations programmed so as to induce cooperation, that's a long item, for another time, perhaps). -- So, responding to the question of credibility, and bizarre, self defeating stories, this is no surprise to me. I think the pitfall is the lack of professionals in this field who can master the art of bypassing those mines. Also, those who can do it are usually, 99/100 people IMPLICATED. namely, have had some brush with the perps machination. the people who were able to push my buttons effectively were perps (some of them perps who are adversaries of my perps, but STILL PERPS). In one case the person introduced himself as ex perp who switched sides, but who knows...he was ex US marine and I tend to think he was working for gov, but perhaps sincerely trying to deprogram. Still, this is not someone whom I would advise any victim to go along with. it is sheer self injury. --- I don't believe there is anyone who is able to do it, without having the training of perps. So, the instinct to run away from people who seem knowledgable is usualy a good, sound, survival instinct. This is also very reasonable, since those are gov programs, anyone familiar with them would have to be from the inside or from another gov. So, in my experience, other gov't don't have bona fides interest in rescuing victims, they only have political interests. that's the world, and victims, perhaps know it best. (how dark the world can be, or IS, in some issues). -- Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=havanagilla>havanagilla</A> at: 4/12/06 3:18 pm

by **blanc** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:59 pm

to have the feeling of being present, or actually to know you are present, but be unable to react normally, though conscious, is a state which can be induced by one of the drugs routinely used. 'telling' the victim in one way or another that her fertility has been 'attacked' is quite common. I'd be thinking along the lines that you have a yet unrevealed memory of one session designed to instill that fear in you, which is getting mixed up with your attempt at rationalising it, havanagilla. also, the contradictory desire to frustrate investigation by provoking discord is familiar. in fact I've observed that anger blocks recall (as well as pissing off the would be helper) I think it happens at an unconscious level first, with the victim justifying it later, by feelings of 'x was just prying' or 'getting off on my story'. I don't know if its programmed to work like that (it would be very convenient to the perps!), or if it is the victim's own brain functioning to block off the pain of too much recall all at once. a person can only take so much. the feelings of worhlessness are, as you know, there because they were put there, because it suits the agenda of those who would enslave you, and it is a very good point you make that this causes a reaction, a potentially inappropriate touchiness. in fact the surviving people are very special because they show us so much about what is being done and (really important) how lousy the perps are at doing it. if they were as good as they think they are there would be no survivors telling the tales.

by **Project Willow** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:18 pm

This is yet another FWIW from me... I met an abductee. He guessed about my past before I could tell him. He had prior experience with an mc survivor and guessed based upon my behavior and political views. His symptoms are remarkably similar to DID, and I have a suspician, based on hand signals and other behaviors that he may also have a history of ra. I'm aware of Cannon's thesis and it makes sense to me. I gave my abductee friend the link to those pages. He said they were interesting, yet he remains a true believer in the alien explanation. Other anecdotes: survivors reporting seeing alien suits in the labs, scientists dressing up in alien suits, or survivors when they were children being sent on missions dressed in alien suits. Linking ra with alien abduction, as you know, is a common tactic of debunkers. It would be a little ironic if the medical experimentation thesis turned out to be accurate in most cases.

by **havanagilla** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:19 pm

I'll process the fertility insight, it rings some sort of bell. I'll try to see which. when I can... -- Worthlessness - it was instilled heavily, as in "pounding" it into the flesh and soul.But also, after reading numerous accounts of people who have been tortured (mostly in political framework, or POW), it appears that worthlessness is a "natural" human response to being tortured and dehumanized, even if there is no "programming" involved, just plain beating, sadism etc., in order to extract info or just the usual reasons torture exists in interrogations and political struggles. Being tortured for so many years, surely makes it more entrenched. I remember one paragraph that was the most accurate ,<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Amery" target="top"> by Jean Amery describing</a> his arrest/interrogation by gestapo in Belgium , not holocaust gothic stuff, just the "usual scene" or senseless beating and kicking etc., and he describes torture as spitting on the soul of a person which is never cleaned up, and feeling that only suicide (whenever, not necessarily during captivity) is the "correct" response to salvage the soul's dignity, namely, erasing the experience which cannot be reversed. -- I think that in addition to constant programming, merely grasping the full range of the suffering one had to endure creates a sense of deep, essential, worthlessness as a human being who has been irreversibly defiled. (a sense of not being part of the human family, that's my constant feeling). -- The world is not smiling on people like me, usually, if anyone gets close enough to grasp the horror, they react with a certain contempt/disdain, that's my total experience. there are exceptions but too few to remember. -- as for "victory" over the perps. I think it exists in the possibilty of even temporary ability to distance oneself from the situation and create some more space for life, regular life, namely, to what is REALLY important (this is to reverse the priorities of the perps). the sacrifice required, usualy, is huge, but possible (as we see, and you are right about it, there are survivors ). However, "giving up" is also a victory, namely, refusing to live the life these perps assigned for the victim. (suicide or what not), IF this is done after regaining full integration of the facts.

by **nashvillebrook** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:50 pm

there's so much in your post -- this just jumped to mind. if one question is 'how do therapists take abduction/RA/MC seriously" given that they share similar narratives... maybe you take the Magonia 'functionalist' approach. there's something affecting a person's life and it has a narrative structure that can be *compared* to other narratives found elsewhere. Magonia is the term Jacques Vallee used to describe an ultradiminsional reality that included ufos, elves and shamanic visions. the buzzing place. it's kind of a cop-out, but it does provide a starting point. so, as a therapist you might advocate for acceptance of a functional narrative approach -- just to assign some jargon. the point being to try and shift the focus from the *content* of the disturbance to the *structure* of the disturbance.

by **chiggerbit** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:09 pm

However, "giving up" is also a victory, namely, refusing to live the life these perps assigned for the victim. (suicide or what not), IF this is done after regaining full integration of the facts. Forgive my obtuseness, but, isn't this a "win/win" for the perpetrators, always? I don't understand.

by **thoughtographer** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:12 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Magonia is the term Jacques Vallee used to describe an ultradiminsional reality that included ufos, elves and shamanic visions. the buzzing place. it's kind of a cop-out, but it does provide a starting point.<hr></blockquote> How can you consider it "kind of" a cop-out? You either face the facts or you don't. I agree that it provides a good point of entry into the larger scope of the issues he's addressing. I'll take a Jacques Vallee or J. Allen Heynek over a Whitley Streiber or Budd Hopkins any day of the week. People like Hopkins are so myopic, they can't swallow their pride and admit to the fact that at this point, their own "research" is tainting the data before it even gets to them. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>so, as a therapist you might advocate for acceptance of a functional narrative approach -- just to assign some jargon. the point being to try and shift the focus from the *content* of the disturbance to the *structure* of the disturbance.<hr></blockquote> I think this is a wise approach, especially upon consideration of my personal experience. The same machinery is often capable of producing many similar, but quite different products. "A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."

by **Dreams End** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:08 pm

Not being a survivor myself, I may be projecting, but a "functionalist" approach would be tough for me to accept. I'm pretty left brained in some ways, I realize, and I don't have trauma overlaying my thought process here, but I feel I'd want to know...did this really happen as I'm remembering. And if not, then what the hell DID happen. The RA/abduction scenarios are not as clearly similar as mc. In mc, one may be strapped down to a table with all sorts of medical equipment going on...but in MC I'm not aware of any particular emphasis on sexual organs (abuse yes, but not extracting sperm, etc.) The similarities to RA are a bit broader. Again, one might be strapped down, with "people" around..and the abduction experiences are usually very sexual in nature. The emphasis on fetuses as I mentioned is the one that started this line of thought as abductees routinely report having fetuses taken from them. (The difference is that these are raised ex-utero and ultimately the abductee may even come back and meet the hybrid child.) Also, the cliche "anal probes" and other invasive sexual procedures. Of course, the surroundings remembered by victims of RA vs abduction are completely different but there is a typology there. One of the scarier things is that abductees report receiving "instructions" or knowledge but having no conscious access to it later. Surely that's the hallmark of MC type stuff but I think RA survivors also have some intentional programming...information they can't access unless actually in the particular state of consciousness. I read reports of survivors knowing what to do in rituals when involved in them, but having no recall of this in a normal waking state. I still have trouble sorting out credible reports from all three camps, RA/MC and AA so I don't know which details are spurious. So others can probably do a better job of figuring that out. I haven't done enough detailed comparison but a timeline would be interesting. When the first modern RA reports...MC (before Candy Jones?), and when the first AA reports (maybe when did they first start coming out in larger numbers...and I think this corresponds or just follows all the RA reports from the eighties...very close in time, actually. There are important differences which I don't mean to overlook. For example, I'm not aware that AA victims report a particularly high rate of DID. They do report lots of missing time, however. The main point is, of course, that there are elements of these abduction stories which suggest they simply aren't about aliens coming and grabbing people. If that's true there are two possibilities. One is that nothing really happened to these aa victims, or if it did, the actual event is so different from the memory that the memory is useless. This further suggests that it's quite possible for a segment of the population to fantasize such events in ways that would call into question various other recovered memories of trauma. However, since we know that memories of trauma which are regained after a period of amnesia are usually as accurate as continuous memories, this suggest either outright duplicity on the part of the victims or a band of mad hypnotherapists deliberately implanting very similar memories in people. Either way, not good for the cause of those seeking to show the validity of RA (which, by the way, I don't lay at the feet of either victims or therapists, but the issue should be tackled systematically.) The other possibility is that these AA folks are being abducted by rather human folks and having their minds messed with but for some reason, the additional layer of "alien" content is added. This could be simply to confuse or disredit the victim should the memories return, or it could be to get the "aliens are coming" theme out into the public sphere which, in turn, might be simply to discredit other MC accounts by association with AA accounts, or even to support a larger agenda. Vallee, who was mentioned earlier, says that he ran into a bunch of UFO cases which were elaborate and expensive hoaxes which led back to government agencies. His supposition is that there was some groundwork being laid to use alien "invasion" as a pretext for a power grab. I guess they went with the terrorist option instead, or else he was just wrong. But I want to add to this discussion the idea of cults. There are many UFO cults, such as the Heaven's Gate cult. IN addition there are other cults which exist around material channeled from entities claiming to be from outer space. I think (not sure) that Eckankar may be one of those, for example. There's also this whole use of "The Nine" to influence certain people and events that Jeff has talked about several times. If you are like me, you assume that intelligence agencies routinely infiltrate or even create such cults for various purposes. The Jim Jones cult had no alien connection, of course but it did have CIA connections. And Scientology, well....not sure that completely fits as they don't seem to preach that any aliens are coming back anytime soon, but the theme is there. I'm just noodling around the edges of this to suggest that there's a throughline here. Not necessarily with something like Ponchatoula where just some marginal folks take up Satanic practices (assuming they had no connections to a larger group...I have no idea) but as RA starts to connect to the MC world and I understand there's a lot of overlap there. Think thusly: RA world delves also in child porn and sex slavery and probably drugs as well. Much of this is used to blackmail and control as well as generate profits. Intel agencies like the CIA collaborate with organized crime all the time...maybe, behind "organized crime" we'll often find them "organized" by spooks to begin with. They too want to use drugs, sex and underage slaves to compromise people. Add into this a fascist subculture within both. For CIA, at least, that subculture is perhaps the dominant culture. Certainly it was fascists who started it and Nazis were imported into it. And then you get back to Nazi MC and Nazi occultism. Given the fascist content and connections to many of the UFO groups, starting back with "contactee" George Adamski and his connection to the Silver Shirts, up through modern day..well I won't mention any names. But anyway, there's overlap there as well. Three completely separate groups? Three completely separate phenomena...all involving the intentional creation of altered states of consciousness, the implantation of instructions, commands, tasks or knowledge and the erasure of conscious memory and all three having pretty significant overlap in terms of the types of folks involved? I think that the connections are clearly there. I just don't know exactly how they work or what the agenda is.

by **havanagilla** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:43 am

chigger, at least in my experience and others who faced powers that are way to big to ever "win over them" in the usual sense (the western cowboy dual approach) - the only question that remains is how to redefine your own victory/humanity. There is no WINNING over nazis, whether those of WW2 or those who run the show now. One has to live along with them, namely, knowing they are still there, running the show. So they win anyway. What remains is how to manage the rest of your life after being formaly released from the "camps". I say, "anything that gets you through the night" namely, how to restore the sense of sanctity to your self - is OK, provided you are fully concsious of what happened (namely, not just running away from knowing). -- two images I have in mind. One - from "Death and the maiden" a very good movie if one wants to know about victims of torture; in the end of the movie, after having confronted the torturer "successfully" sort of, the victim and her husband are going to a concert, and they see in the audience, the torturer sitting there as well. This is reality (I think the movie refers to Chile after Pinochet or such place). Another scene from a movie, one of thos "Roots" movies about africans being enslaved and brought to the USA back then. The first scene in the film is showing how the ship is taken over by the merchants and the people over it realize they have been kidnapped and are going to be taken as slaves. the wife of the hero, holding a baby, is immediately jumping to the water with the child, to die and spare both of them the hell which is assigned for them. I think this is a healthy "animal" instinct as well, namely, to sense what lies ahead and know it is going to change your SOUL on such a deep level, its not worth it, even if in 20 years you'll be free. -- this goes against my religion/culture, very deeply, as Judaism makes it very clear that suicide under ANY condition is strictly prohibitted and will send you straight to hell for many lifetimes. But I think this precepts do not apply in these extreme situations.

by **FourthBase** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:52 am

Wasn't there the mass suicide on the rock fortress vs. the Romans? Manassa (sp?) or something?

by **havanagilla** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:06 am

Massada. well, this is indeed considered a "non jewish" act. It was elevated only by Zionist revisionist interpretation of history and specifically of the destruction of the second temple. Zionism is critiqued for being "death worshipping culture" by Jewish scholars, and I believe rightly so. But I wouldn't draw parallels bn political acts and personal choices. I wouldn't recommend mass suicide. Recent cute Israeli movie here draws parallel bn the palestinian style of resistance and the massada myth, casting the Israelis in the role of the evil romans. :-).

by **blanc** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:26 am

first, I want to challenge the idea that the perps are the winners. yes, that is the simple position, there they sit with their villas, their shoe boxes full of money, their protective ring of goons. maybe. but actually the idea that the PTB are composed of a group of people who each, voluntarily, accepts his position in relation to the others must be fallacious. at the level of those who carry out the foul work of ra/mc - they are doing someone's bidding, and they are not having a nice life in the sense that anyone halfway normal would accept. yes, they get material rewards, but they are also scared. scared of each other, scared of those who give them their orders and scared also of the likes of you and me havanagilla, and those who listen this isn't a plea for remission for their crimes, its just a different look at the power structures. at one meeting with the group I am in, the subject of suicide came up, because, one person, not there, was very close to that juncture. a kind of round-robin question followed the 'what can we do to help' bit - namely 'have you ever considered suicide?'. the concensus was that each of us had, but each of us thought along the lines of 'if you are going to end your own life, why not take out one of the bastards first. ' as we are all involved with helping one or more survivors, this gung ho approach is on the back boiler, but i have no illusions about the perps, for all their smirking bravado, they each know they are marked. the whole charabanc runs on fear. and the sheeple are not halfway as shepherdable as the PTB would like to think. secondly, I want to say that what survivors do each day they get through, is reaffirm humanity. not necessarily in active resistance, but just in doing the normal, pleasant things as far as they can. that each of those actions, making a cup of coffee when they want to, walking the dog, buying something nice, etc is a slap in the face for the perps who wanted to control every living moment of their existence. I'm trying to say that it is necessary, probably, for each of us to know our past, but also to live in the present.

MC/RA and alien abductions

MC/RA and alien abductions

similar?

ra cases

Re: ra cases

ra cases

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Re: ra cases

Magonia as a question for therapy... hmmm

Re: Hava

Re: Magonia as a question for therapy... hmmm

Re: Magonia as a question for therapy... hmmm

Re: suicide and win/win

Re: suicide and win/win

Re: suicide and win/win

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