Evil, imagined

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Evil, imagined

Postby nomo » Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:08 pm

<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/24/arts/24conn.html?_r=1&oref=slogin">www.nytimes.com/2006/07/2...ref=slogin</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Something Evil (Well, Maybe Tragically Misunderstood) This Way Comes<br><br>By EDWARD ROTHSTEIN<br>Published: July 24, 2006<br><br>We know evil when we see it, of course. And surely that was it, onstage at the Lincoln Center Festival this month, when the gray-fleshed monster Grendel explained how he was planning to devour the Queen of the Danes, by lifting her by her spread legs and pulling her apart over the flames. And surely too that was evil when various others of his ilk, who jerkily stumbled on stage like brutish mutations, arms and heads and legs in freakish disarray, prepared to wreak havoc of one kind or another.<br><br>But of course it wasn’t evil, as anybody knows who even read about the opera “Grendel: Transcendence of the Great Big Bad,” which Julie Taymor created with the composer Elliot Goldenthal and her co-librettist, J. D. McClatchy. Ms. Taymor is something of a shaman. In the past she has boldly descended into the netherworld to bring back news that it wasn’t quite what we expected, and this long-planned project was supposed to do the same.<br><br>This opera would tell the “Beowulf” epic from the monster’s perspective: evil would begin to make sense. It would seem, if not justified, at least understandable, and thus not evil.<br><br>As it turned out the work itself was a rumbling jumble of ideas. But it was clear enough that this evil monster was, in his childhood, sadly misunderstood by other children. He grew up lonely and dissatisfied. Like a modern Goth rebel he was a skeptic about idealism. He even grew bored with spilling blood. It was almost a relief for him, if not for his potential victims (and viewers), when Beowulf finally did him in.<br><br>But culturally speaking his spirit has in recent years been triumphant. The Broadway musical “Wicked,” for example, does something similar for Margaret Hamilton’s genuinely scary Wicked Witch of the West from the movie “The Wizard of Oz,” proving that she too had human feelings and legitimate gripes: the root causes of her hatred for the treacly Glinda.<br><br>Evil is really the contested category here: if we can’t find it in brutish monsters or green-skinned witches, where can it be found? Certainly not in the faces of terrorists, we are meant to think, or any other enemies for that matter. When humans need enemies, Ms. Taymor’s Grendel learns, they create them. Gregory Maguire, the author of the novel on which “Wicked” was based, said he got the idea of humanizing the witch from what he thought was an excessive demonization of Saddam Hussein in the early 1990’s.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Now, with more intellectual concentration but similar conclusions, the issue is taken up by David Frankfurter in “Evil Incarnate: Rumors of Demonic Conspiracy and Satanic Abuse in History” (Princeton University Press). Mr. Frankfurter, a professor of religious studies and history at the University of New Hampshire, shows just how similar stories about evil have been.<br><br>From descriptions of witches’ convocations, to accounts of Jews draining the blood of Christian children, to the fantastical tales of Satanic worship in nurseries and day care centers in the 1980’s, to a report commissioned by the president of Kenya in the 1990’s about a national cult of devil worship that was causing accidents, train wrecks and ethnic violence, evil recurs in predictably familiar form.<br><br>Evil emerges in elaborate rituals, inverting the practices of the surrounding civilization. Church worship becomes a Black Mass; the Eucharist is perverted into Jewish devouring of Christian blood; child care becomes child molestation. Each evil is also accompanied by astonishing confessions from onetime participants in the cults testifying to the evil they unleashed. There are also institutional authorities who regularly introduce the “discourse of evil,” declaring war — a “crusade” — against evil’s conspiratorial reach and power.<br><br>Mr. Frankfurter outlines these repeated elements with illuminating clarity and wide-ranging learning. He suggests that the “myth of evil conspiracy lies deep in culture — ‘hard-wired,’ as it were, to society and self.”<br><br>But for Mr. Frankfurter the most decisive aspect of the myth is that it is, literally, a myth. Every single example of evil he gives turns out to be evil imagined: there is, he says, no evidence for any of it. Evil, he argues, is not something real, it is a “discourse,” a “way of representing things and shaping our experience, not some force in itself.”</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>Evil is always associated with the Other, the outsider, whose mysterious rituals or food practices are not just seen as alien; they become demonic. Finding evil in the Other is a human impulse, reflecting an effort to control “a chaotic world of misfortune, temptation, religious conflict and spiritual ambiguity.” The Other is actually far more human than he seems; witness Ms. Taymor’s Grendel.<br><br>When it comes to evil, Mr. Frankfurter is not agnostic; he knows. For all the repeated trauma, “there was never fire within the smoke.” As for certified practitioners of Ms. Taymor’s “Great Big Bad” — like Hitler, perhaps, or mothers who kill their children — Mr. Frankfurter seems to suggest that by calling anyone evil, we are simply tapping into the old imagined archetypes without explaining anything.<br><br>Using the term evil, he argues, prevents us from understanding context and cause; it places something beyond the human, and that’s when trouble starts. “The real atrocities of history,” he says, “seem to take place not in the perverse ceremonies of some evil cult but rather in the course of purging such cults from the world. Real evil happens when people speak of evil.” That is when you have purges and pogroms and massacres.<br><br>He points out the “irony” of discussing all this “when our own culture is preoccupied with the evils of terrorism,” thus implicitly criticizing (as evil?) those who use the word “evil” to describe certain extreme acts of violence or cults of death.<br><br>But Mr. Frankfurter has loaded his deck with imagined evils, making rhetoric more demonic than reality. It is up to the reader to recall more palpable horrors, knowing that sometimes even “discourse” speaks the truth.<br><br>He is right at least in that the word must be used and defended with care. Evil is not a term of explanation. It is a term of judgment. It states that some phenomena are so abhorrent they should remain beyond empathetic understanding. Of course judgments of evil have been mistaken (though I don’t think they have been about Grendel or the Wicked Witch, or about some of the other forces now loose in the world). But when the word is applied to an act, we know just precisely what it means: There is no human excuse. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Evil, imagined

Postby anothershamus » Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:40 pm

Thats really interesting. So maybe Bush and Co. are like the Grendel and we just have to know their motivation? Look at the world from their point of view and everything will be allright? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Evil, imagined

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:02 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Finding evil in the Other is a human impulse, reflecting an effort to control “a chaotic world of misfortune, temptation, religious conflict and spiritual ambiguity.”<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I've noticed this reversing of the telescope perspective used to suggest that We the People are either the source of "evil" or that we project it up on people who are blameless.<br><br>You know, 'anxious paranoids see monsters where there are none' Chip Berlet-style diversion away from real things like the CIA and National inSecurity Council and the Rendon Group and the Johnson Group. These are the institutions that deliberately create monsters to sell war to the public.<br><br>So emphasizing the public's end of the equation can be diversionary and obfuscating- "People are just like that."<br><br>Is this article perpetuating images or discussing them?<br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/07/24/arts/Conn1190.jpg" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br><br>Images last and become our mental vocabulary.<br>So there is a retention and reinforcing of the images that are presented in media which allows one to seemingly merely bring up a topic yet perpetuate it through exposure in a plausibly deniable way.<br><br>Or maybe its just good writing, right?<br><br>There is a book about minstrel shows out at Borders now with a picture of a white guy in blackface on the cover. However the book makes the case that everyone stereotypes and it is just youthful fun. <br>Really? <br>Hmm...Is this evidence of the campaign to restore hostility to black Americans to pre-Katrina levels to perpetuate the myth of capitalist meritocracy that I predicted last year? <br><br><br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/1585424986.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_V57323683_.jpg" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1585424986/102-2417915-8686504?v=glance&n=283155<br>Prof Pan accused me of seeing things as "confirmation bias."<br>I disagree, of course, but do agree that <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>the use of confirmation bias is the media goal of indoctrinating kids with images and then retriggering them as adults.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>And that's how I see this article.<br><br><br>After researching how images and stereotypical assumptions about people become our thinking vocabulary when introduced and then reinforced, I've noticed that seemingly 'objective' discussions of a topic can perpetuate the images being discussed.<br><br>In the balance, did the TV series 'Roots' produce sympathy to the descendents of enslaved Afro-Americans or did it reinforce the images of them as a 'hopeless underclass' from which little addition to progress can be expected?<br><br>See what I mean?<br><br>Notice the imagery of violence against and demonizing of women in this article plus the theme of <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>'over-tolerant psychologically-confused liberals abetting terrorism.'</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>Mentally burning witches while discussing witch burning?<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>lifting her by her spread legs and pulling her apart over the flames.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Got the sexual implications? Got that image firmly in your head?<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>As for certified practitioners of Ms. Taymor’s “Great Big Bad” — <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>like Hitler, perhaps, or mothers who kill their children</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Burn her! Burn her!<br>(Say, how about presidents who bomb women and kids?)<br><br>Now go see 'The Devil Wears Prada' and 'John Tucker Must Die.' Damn vain emasculating hussies! Just can't trust'em so hang out with the boys on the team who understand you.<br><br>Oh, and psychology is a tool of the devil! Damned liberals-<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>This opera would tell the “Beowulf” epic from the monster’s perspective: evil would begin to make sense. It would seem, if not justified, at least understandable, and thus not evil.<br><br>As it turned out the work itself was a rumbling jumble of ideas. But it was clear enough that this evil monster was, in his childhood, sadly misunderstood by other children. He grew up lonely and dissatisfied. Like a modern Goth rebel he was a skeptic about idealism. He even grew bored with spilling blood. It was almost a relief for him, if not for his potential victims (and viewers), when Beowulf finally did him in.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>But culturally speaking his spirit has in recent years been triumphant.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> The Broadway musical “Wicked,” for example, does something similar for Margaret Hamilton’s genuinely scary Wicked Witch of the West from the movie “The Wizard of Oz,” proving that she too had human feelings and legitimate gripes: the root causes of her hatred for the treacly Glinda. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>All very erudite here in the NYTimes. And hitting all the points that Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh and Newt Gingrich use in the war against the people and the middle class intelligentsia that know what the scam is.<br><br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hughmanateewins>Hugh Manatee Wins</A> at: 7/25/06 10:57 pm<br></i>
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nuff said

Postby blanc » Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:10 pm

fantastical tales.. satanic.. day nurseries <p></p><i></i>
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Re: nuff said

Postby biaothanatoi » Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:53 pm

There are some bizarre things that haunt the web on issues like this - <br><br>- The first being that abuse in daycare centres was a "moral panic", when there are dozens of substantiated cases (complete with medical evidence, children with STDs, confessions, convictions) across the Western world, suggesting that groups of perpetrators had been targetting kindergartens/daycare centres/schools/etc to access children for some time, and<br><br>- Snuff movies. A little off topic here, but why is the prevalent rhetoric from American law enforcement and armchair commentators that "no snuff movies have ever been found" ... when Interpol says otherwise and when Scotland Yard says otherwise? Just check out the <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snuff_movie" target="top">stupid Wikipedia entry on it.</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>I'm always startled by how authoritatively Frankfurter, Victor, et. al. speak about these subjects when they have no first-hand experience whatsoever. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: nuff said

Postby dugoboy » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:00 pm

confirmation bias. thats exactly what movies and 24 hour cable tv news run on..i will write something about all this soon..especially about the 'syria and iran did it' bullshit.<br><br>its mind warfare. <p>___________________________________________<br>"BUSHCO aren't incompetent...they are COMPLICIT." -Me<br><br>"Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act" -George Orwell</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=dugoboy@rigorousintuition>dugoboy</A> at: 7/25/06 8:01 pm<br></i>
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Re: Fantastical indeed.

Postby slimmouse » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:12 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> fantastical tales.. satanic.. day nurseries<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br> Fantastical indeed.<br><br> Amazing how the fact that an excavation behind the McMartin daycare center revealed that the kids <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>were</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> telling the truth.<br><br> Not so surprising I suppose that these guys covered their bottoms.<br><br> However, with the greatest respect and sympathy to those who suffered unquestionable abuse I feel that what should be driving those who seek the truth is to answer the why.<br><br> What possesses these strange folks to do these strange things ?<br><br> Exactly what that is remains a relative mystery to me, but I have to say personally that I feel it goes way beyond simply some kind of sick power buzz. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=slimmouse@rigorousintuition>slimmouse</A> at: 7/25/06 8:15 pm<br></i>
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Re: Fantastical indeed.

Postby biaothanatoi » Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:30 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Exactly what that is remains a relative mystery to me, but I have to say personally that I feel it goes way beyond simply some kind of sick power buzz.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>You have to take into account a lot of things - firstly that RA and other sadistic abuses tend to be lumped together, when they are practiced very differently by very different groups/people - and that motivations for this behaviour are just as diverse - <br><br>- some offenders have a long history of childhood trauma themselves<br>- sexual offenders often display bizarre forms of cognitive dissonance<br>- there's something of a connection between "black magic" and sexual abuse<br>- paedophilia can be a form of S&M and there are a lot of underground S&M/slavery networks in the West that are only interested in criminal forms of sexuality<br>- there is a lot of money in making sadistic porn, offering children for sadistic sex, and then blackmailing your own clientele<br>- human beings are generally capable of much more debauched and weird shit then we generally give ourselves credit for. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Fantastical indeed.

Postby professorpan » Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:51 am

I'm convinced, after reading both sides of the issue, that there were most definitely cases of what has become (unfortunately) termed "moral panic" in which innocent people were jailed for imaginary crimes. <br><br>I'm also equally convinced that there are have been many documented cases of ritual abuse. <br><br>Each case deserves to be examined on its own merits. All one needs to do is examine the case of the West Memphis Three, imprisoned and on death row because of a community whipped into anti-Satanic hysteria, for a classic example of how well-meaning people can create scapegoats.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Fantastical indeed.

Postby starroute » Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:57 am

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>But it was clear enough that this evil monster was, in his childhood, sadly misunderstood by other children. He grew up lonely and dissatisfied. Like a modern Goth rebel he was a skeptic about idealism. He even grew bored with spilling blood.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>This sounds to me peculiarly like a description of Frankenstein's monster -- the original, Mary Shelley version, that is. Lonely, rejected, disillusioned, vengeful and sick of vengeance. And that, in turn, leads on to thoughts of the Byronic hero, who came out of the same bag.<br><br>This whole Evil R Us theme is not really something new and trendy -- it's been perking along as part of Western culture for the last two centuries. From the Gothic novels of the late 1700's to the Goths of today is a single continuum.<br><br>I suppose it's an advance over projecting evil onto the Other -- but it's getting more than a bit tired, especially when it's presented as something new and radical.<br><br>Perhaps the problem lay in the switch from Other-as-Evil to Self-as-not-really-Evil-just-unhappy-and-misunderstood. I would suggest instead that there is a potential for genuine evil in all us humans -- and that it's probably connected with our unique ability to recognize good and deliberately turn our backs on it.<br><br>Real evil always has an aspect of inversion to it -- of not only violating but debasing what all our instincts tell us should be protected and cherished. That instinctual compenent is why evil is most easily identified in mistreatment of women or children or small animals -- in pedophilia or rape or violence or exploitation or general defilement. But it can also be seen, though in less visceral and therefore weaker form, in conscious abuse of nature, destruction of irreplaceable works of art, or cynical exploitation of sacred symbols.<br><br>I grow very tired at times of the modern world, and though I have no desire to regress to Other-as-Evil, I'd very much like to move on beyond the self-justifying sleaziness we have now. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Symptoms of abuse, destruction, exploitation

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:52 am

This article's blame-the-victim stance is unsubstantiated. The public doesn't determine what it gets from mainstream media. That is a lie and a cover-up of the mechanisms of marketing.<br><br>Studies have clearly and repeatedly shown that the violence on TV (and by inferrence movies) affects the brain and brings out the dark side of human potential.<br><br>But this knowledge has been suppressed for many years since it also sells stuff and does exactly the social engineering that the Pentagon wants to sustain a warrior class and reduce other's resistance to it.<br><br>This hypnotist expert, Eldon Taylor, describes the brain chemistry of storing up stress from watching TV and has this handy little chart showing the ramping up of the dose of violence steadily away from the Father Knows Best-era to today's Dirty Torturing Harry-era.<br><br>Media is a drug just like crack with similar effects.<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.innertalk.com/progressive/papers/Semantic_distortion.html">www.innertalk.com/progres...rtion.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.innertalk.com/progressive/papers/Child_Violence_illus.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Here are some facts about stress:<br><br>1. Stressful stimuli (stressors) lead to the “stress response” which is an excitation or arousal of the central nervous system (CNS) and this raises the activity in the CNS.<br><br>2. Stressors may summate where the total sum of stressors lead to a suppression of the immune and endocrine system.<br><br>3. The stress response initially affects the discharge of sympathetic neurons and the secretion of catecholamines and later the increased level in cortisol (perhaps a tail off affect).<br><br>4. Increased levels of cortisol have been dramatically linked to everything from memory loss to the destruction of selected brain cells.<br><br>5. The summation and accumulation of so-called ordinary stress can lead to a helpless and hopeless attitude which itself negatively influences the immune system to say nothing of its potentiation of heightened anxiety or depression.<br><br>6. Some stressors are actually “thrillers” depending upon the human context in which they are viewed. Thrillers can aggregate with stressors.<br><br>7. Stress affects and influences behavior, sometimes toward inhibition (fear and anxiety) and in the opposite direction (anger and hostility). <br><br>8. Stress uses energy. It can deplete energy levels leaving one exhausted even upon waking after a night's sleep.<br><br>9. From serious psychiatric disorders, including bi-polar and affective personality disorders, to simple acne, stress is a disrupter.<br><br>10. Accumulated stressors and/or thrillers lead to a continued state of heightened arousal which in turn fundamentally alters brain chemistry, of particular interest in this context, corticosteroids (most important of which is cortisol) and the catecholamines epinephrine and norepinephrine.<br><br>(Stanford, S.C and Salmon, P., 1993)<br><br> <br><br>According to the cognitive approach in psychology, there are temperamental and cognitive venerability factors that exacerbate the effect of continued arousal. They are:<br><br>1. A strong desire to convey a favorable impression and marked insecurity about doing so.<br><br>2. A fear of behaving in an unacceptable fashion.<br><br>3. A belief that an unfavorable impression will lead to catastrophic consequences in terms of loss of status and rejection. (Wells, A., and Clark, D.M., 1995).<br><br> (And there is the recruiting in 'Chicken Little.'-HMW)<br><br>According to Sullivan’s compensation model of behavior, a certain portion of the population with the described venerability factors would naturally compensate for their perceived failure in the following self-expressed attitudinal manner:<br><br>1. The hell with them!<br><br>2. I’ll show them--I’ll really piss them off!<br><br>3. It doesn’t matter, life sucks and then you die anyway! (Goleman, D. and Speeth, K., 1982)<br><br> <br><br>These cognitions, distortions, have been categorized by Jennifer Campbell, as:<br><br>1. All or none thinking: matters of black or white only.<br><br>2. Over-generalization: concludes that because something happened once it will always occur.<br><br>3. Mental filter: choose the negative detail from any situation).<br><br>4. Disqualify the positive<br><br>5. Jumping to conclusions: usually involves so-called mind reading--I know what you think.<br><br>6. Magnification and minimization: exaggerating the negative and minimizing the positive.<br><br>7. Emotional reasoning: taking feelings as evidence of reality.<br><br>8. Should statements: creating unnecessary self-shame--I should have...<br><br>9. Labeling and mislabeling: using meaningless derogatory labels--semantic distortions.<br><br>10. Personalization: assuming the guilt or responsibility for events such as, when someone says “this room is too crowded,” assuming they mean you should leave. (1999).<br><br>(Those 10 reactions leave you utterly manipulatable.-HMW)<br><br> <br><br>Where these descriptions are helpful, they can also be deceiving. For most of the elements, if not all, of those found in the profile of a school shooter, or the "at risk" characteristics for bi-polar or affective disorders, stress induced depression, continued states of anxiety, and so forth, could just as well fit some of the world’s best leaders and thinkers. Indeed, according to many biographies, they do!<br><br> <br><br>What then is the difference? Again, the difference is in the practiced killing and the semantic distortion. Justification has always been a motive or a defense mechanism for behavior. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>However, the type and means of justification have dramatically altered particularly since the arrival of the mass media and the so-called information age.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> Perhaps also, there is a difference in the social values that implicitly leads stereotypes and self concepts that are central to the affective constructs referred to by social psychologists as attitude and self esteem.<br><br> <br><br>Fantasy Formation<br><br> <br><br>It is not an aside to discuss a well known mechanism known as fantasy formation at this point. For as a stimulus is systematically increased leading to a new threshold which in turn requires an ever greater stimuli to meet arousal requirements, the accompany fantasy is also altered. That is, as everyone incorporates material suggested by outside sources in their fantasies, as the threshold of arousal changes so does the fantasy. Take for example sexual fantasies. The initial fantasy held before a sexual experience is greatly different than say the fantasy of an older male who has traveled the world. The experience of forming a fantasy, fantasizing about it, whether carried out or not, fundamentally changes the fantasy. Further, the introduction of ideas also fundamentally alters fantasy. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>The fantasy formation mechanism is such that in order for a fantasy to satisfy its basic definition, it must lead to arousal of some nature, even if the arousal is only a passing feeling of self gratification. The “copy cat” crime is an a priori example of how suggestion becomes intertwined with fantasy, which in turn all too often leads to the actual acting out of the fantasy.<br><br> <br><br>The so-called vicarious experience that arouses anger, sex, revenge, etc., portrayed in entertainment is particularly dangerous when offered up with justification. It’s natural for Rambo to seek revenge since he didn’t draw first blood. Some people are just “natural born killers.” </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>When the fantasy has socially accepted framework, particularly that which leads to one’s ability to blame something or someone else for the behavior, then the likelihood of the fantasy turning into some act is increased. </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>"They are just like that." Beware of that message. It leads to self-fulfilling prophecy, learned helpless ness, and complicity in maintaining the status quo.<br><br>And that is exactly what this NYTimes article is about. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Fantastical indeed.

Postby biaothanatoi » Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:00 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm convinced, after reading both sides of the issue, that there were most definitely cases of what has become (unfortunately) termed "moral panic" in which innocent people were jailed for imaginary crimes.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>It's called a miscarriage of justice, PP. What's the need for "moral panic" as a phrase?<br><br>Have a read of Cohens "Folk Devils and Moral Panics" - the book that launched the phrase "moral panic" - it was originally released in the 60s. He states in the 2002 edition that the term is defunct and the product of a simplistic and patronising stimulus-response view of the publics response to the media.<br><br>He also states explicitly that:<br><br>"Calling something a ‘moral panic’ <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>does not imply</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> that this something does not exist or happened at all and that the reaction is based on fantasy, hysteria, delusion and illusion or being duped by the powerful."<br><br>There is an interesting passage where he states that it is our responsibility to <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>encourage</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> "moral panics" about horrific things:<br><br>“In some cases, the logic of labelling social reaction as a moral panic may indeed lead to varieties on non-intervention (leaving things alone): either because reaction is based on literal delusion or because ethe problem does not deserve such extravagant attention. The difficult cases are more interesting – <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>the existence of the problem is recognised, but its cognitive interpretation and moral implications are denied, evaded or disputed</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->.”<br><br>“Such reactions form exactly the discourse of denial: literal denial (nothing happened); interpretive denial (Something happened, but it’s not what you think) and implicatory denial (what happened as not really bad and can be justified).”<br><br>“<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Instead of exposing moral panics, my own cultural politics entails, in a sense, encouraging something like moral panics about mass atrocities and political suffering</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> - and trying to expose the strategies of denial deployed to prevent the acknowledgement of these realities. All of us cultureal workers – busily constructing social problems, making claims and setting public agendas we think we are stirring up ‘good’ moral panics.” <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Fantastical indeed.

Postby professorpan » Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:13 am

Yeah, I agree, Biao, that "moral panic" is a crappy phrase.<br><br>Also agree that "miscarriage of justice" is apt. <br><br>But humans have been known to succumb to irrational and delusional panics. From the witch trials to some of the baseless SRA cases, the historical record is pretty clear and cautionary. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Fantastical indeed.

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:53 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But humans have been known to succumb to irrational and delusional panics.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Yup. And keeping the focus on the Machiavellian manipulators who spook the herd is the challenge when we're told that 'we manifest our bad leaders.'<br><br>Whatever is the level of angst being harvested from the body politic, this is a blame-the-victim perspective tapping into the same magical thinking that has people playing the lottery and thinking 'all you need is love.'<br><br>This 'we brought it on ourselves' crap is being slung by Paul Levy who uses convoluted Jungian analysis to imply that we are responsible for George W. Bush. He's got a book out that I scanned and didn't know whether to laugh or throw it. One chapter was 'The 2004 Election and Quantum Physics.' <br>Ya can see what this guy's gag is. Obfuscation.-<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.alternativesmagazine.com/31/levy.html">www.alternativesmagazine..../levy.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The Madness of George W. Bush<br>A Reflection of our Collective Psychosis<br>By Paul Levy<br><br>George W. Bush is ill. He has a psycho-spiritual disease of the soul, a sickness that is endemic to our culture and symptomatic of the times we live in. It’s an illness that has been with us since time immemorial. Because it’s an illness that’s in the soul of all of humanity, it pervades the field and is in all of us, in potential, at any moment, which makes it especially hard to diagnose. <br>....<br>Instead of relating to parts of this field as isolated entities, it’s important to contemplate the entire interdependent field as the “medium” through which malignant egophrenia manifests and propagates itself. ME disease is a field phenomenon, and needs to be understood as such.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Being a field phenomenon, malignant egophrenia is non-local in nature, which means that it is not bounded by the limitations of time or space. Being non-local, this disease pervades and underlies the entire field and can therefore manifest anywhere, through anyone and at any moment. </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>The disease’s non-local nature makes the question of who has the disease irrelevant, as we all have it, in potential. </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Yes, an entire book of this fluffy crap. Who's buying this? <p></p><i></i>
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strange folk

Postby blanc » Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:37 am

'what possesses these strange folk to do these strange things.'<br>I've been holding back from this discussion, because I've been re-reading a selection of some of the 450,000 pages of evidence in the dutroux files, and haven't finished. But apropos of this, and perhaps linking to your points on accumulation of stress, HMW, ( even stress perceived as exciting), is testimony about perpetrators wanting always to go further. A key figure, who escaped questioning because of his connections, was both a facilitator for sensation seekers, (running a series of clubs of questionable practices), and a central figure in founding a neo-tantric sect in Belgium. Taking a ten minute whizz over info about neo tantra, there seemed to be several tantra sites warning of the dangers of interpreting tantra as a route to enlightenment through orgasm. Namely that a form of addiction would result. I'm of the mind that this character was using the 'religious' envelope cynically to cloak his activities, - he had clubs registered as charities (!), but perhaps there were amongst the perps, those who bought in to the pseudo philosophy. Either way, it does seem to me that there is a slippery slope, and not everyone jumps off in time. Perhaps perpetrators are amongst the section of population who have addiction prone personalities. Jeff posted recently about he monotony of evil - this is exactly what is striking about these crimes, after reading so many ra accounts, one is left with a feeling of wanting to say 'and what did you acheive by this' to the perps. Obviously, money, for the criminals, but there are other ways of making money. They have to either like or need what they do. and it must get monotonous - what next. the x testimony takes us through just about any variety of abysmal cruelty and murder you can think of, and still at the end of it, its pathetic that that is what someone wants to do with his/her life. <p></p><i></i>
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