Christian Ritual Abuse

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Re: what we know

Postby biaothanatoi » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:00 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>this does not invalidate the source of the drugs reaching him or her (namely, whether the drugs were pushed by gov or mafia etc.)<br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Part of my bread and butter is research with illicit drug users ... and the overwhelming reason that they use drugs is because drugs are very pleasurable and, for most users, pretty harmless. <br><br>That's where the demand lies - in people. How that demand is met is something else altogether. <br><br>We know there is a demand for child prostitutes/porn that also lies in individuals. I think RA is part of the supply chain that meets that demand.<br><br>So, no, I'm not looking at "social structures" and ignoring "the source" of RA. I'm just not presuming that RA is an end in and of itself - I think it is a way of socialising kids into a lifetime of sexual slavery - and it is a way that is used by a variety of perpetrator groups.<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>for instance, any person, or community will not be able to ward off intentional drugging by a very strong and sophisticated pusher-org<br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Hav, the vast majority of people who use drugs do so because they are a hell of a lot of fun, and they use the drugs safely and without consequence. Addicts or problematic drug users constitute a minority of drug users. There is no "strong and sophisticated pusher-org" - the demand for drugs is massive because the appeal is massive.<br><br>This logic that there must be a shadowy organisation behind any "social problem" (whether drugs or RA) isn't one that I agree with, and I don't think it speaks to the facts. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: what we know

Postby havanagilla » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:16 am

so we don't agree on that.<br><br>you are assuming some natural appetites and 'free market' system of supply , and I am not sure it meets my experience.<br>its a fundamental issue, cuts through sexual preference, alcohol use, drugs etc. well almost anything. it is possible to create demand for certain practices. (coca cola ? pistols ?).<br><br>but really that's way to deep for what I meant to say. <br><br>i am looking at the prevalence of incest among nuclear facilties workers and other top intel communities, seeing its way up there including RA etc. I can assume a coincidence, as you suggest but I tend to think that there are ways to create demand for sexual deviancy among normal human beings, given certain conditions and political will.<br>I see that alcohol was not in demand socially among jews (until fairly recently) and has become one; same for drugs. i am not among those who grew up conditioned to need drug as fun, i don't consider it fun too. (maybe the new generation does). sexual deviance can be encouraged and inculcated in order to make profits from sex slaves, and not the other way around. <br><br>given economic and political conditions, any community can be accustomed to consume certain practices/chemicals. certainly, it is possible to create the dependence in individuals.<br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: what we know

Postby Gouda » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:57 am

Points taken, all. Thanks. I do take some exception, though, to one of Biao's remarks: <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The conspiracy/"parapolitically"-minded want to hear about Bush and Cheney and mind-controlled presidential sex slaves and that is how they frame RA - but they only do so by ignoring the stories that are coming up from the ground.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>First, I don't think it is fair or correct to say that parapolitically-minded researchers <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>want</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> to hear about mind-controlled presidential sex slaves. I don't. And not the researchers I am inclined to lend credibility to. Unfortunately, there are some who probably do, and they are the ones minimizing or ignoring all the other abuses. As for presidential sex-slaves (and mc, and assassinations, and programmed spies, etc and other high-level hijinks utilizing ra) it's just that we <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>have</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> heard about them, whether we like it or not, from the victims themselves. And I think it is an overreaching generalization to say that by looking into high-level elite ra and mc, one neglects to see the rest. I think, I hope, that is not the case with the parapolitically-minded here at RI. Just a bit defensive about the "RI culture" which I hope is cultivating better frameworks for analysis here than elsewhere. But you are probably right in general when looking at the wider conspiracy culture out there, woeful as it is. I agree we need to continue to be <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"talking to the evidence."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br>There may not be a "shadowy organisation behind [every] 'social problem'", but there <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>is</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> a large amount of evidence that the secret services, corporate fraternities, and elements in the military-industrial complex (if these are not "shadowy groups" I do not know who is) utilize ra and have an inordinate amount of influence on these social problems. They may not have created every ill in society, because they are part of the Ill, but they sure do have the power and resources to profit and manipulate this stuff on a larger and more dangerous scale than your average pimp. <br><br>I think blanc's comments speak well to this and offer the start of a synthesis in understanding between the political and the legal approaches to ra (blanc, sorry if I am taking the liberty to quote you here as a response) - <br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Based to some extent on personal experience, to some extent on witness accounts I trust, and to some extent on reading, I do think that mc and ra in its current form are linked, and that it is in the political arena where those links are most obvious...<br><br>The expansion of the crimes associated with and involved in ritual abuse is, I think, a direct result of the involvement of the secret services...<br><br>It is because the political dimension that is specifically of crime committed under the umbrella of government, which uses the bonding bribery and blackmail of ra to keep rolling, that the humble victim of much humbler perpetrators, so rarely gets justice.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> Double-whammy for the humbler victims of abuse, trafficking, etc: besides their own specific abuse, the crimes of the more powerful perps steal the spotlight of justice from them. In any case, far too few receive justice, whether they be "high" or "low" perps or victims. There needs to be people working in the trenches <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>and</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> at higher levels to fight this stuff, attacking both elite structures and regular societal structures, from many disciplines and angles, each to her/his own ability. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: what we know

Postby Gouda » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:59 am

Hava: <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>it is possible to create demand for certain practices. (coca cola ? pistols ?)<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> Yes indeedy. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gouda@rigorousintuition>Gouda</A> at: 8/23/06 7:00 am<br></i>
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bottom rung

Postby blanc » Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:07 pm

perfectly ok to quote me Gouda!<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :D --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br>what I mean is that I think ra in general has been denied apropriate investigative resources, because bigger fish are swimming around its pool, and so its been better from pov of strategists using these techniques that public thinks its all fantasy on part of deanged self styled victims.<br><br>when first trying to find answers to what happened to me and mine, I found a quote from a law officer in New York, to effect that no-one sold pornography in that town other than via organised criminal network. Now a lot of small scale, I'd almost call it cottage industry, porn production is going on, and some of those - in fact quite a few of those responsible, seem to amass gains. presumably they carry on safely by paying their dues, but also acting under the general amnesty for criminals using ra techniques which is necessary because the bigger fish need to feed off the smaller ones. Dutroux amasssed gains, yet was not a big fish. but he supplied. <br><br>It took me a long time to get my head round the fact that the most reprehensible of behaviour was being protected, not only when the perpetrators were impotant people with influence, but also, frequently, when they were just little sh*ts. yet this becomes clear when one looks at the supply chain, the links. the analogy with drug dealing is useful, but only so far. abuse of children, sexual exploitation, has some very particular advantages to the criminal over the drug trade. the biggest of these is the ease of bluffing the public - making them dismiss testimony. I agree that we have to take note of even the most wacky sounding stories, but not necessarily jump off from them when they are unsupported. <br><br>I read in the comments section of Jeff's penultimate post, about allegations of cannibalistic practices associated with well known figures. Its not necessary to react to that story with either 'belief' or 'disbelief', merely to note that it exists, and that we don't have evidence. But we have evidence of a whole lot more, in say, Dutroux case, where different victims separately came up with same names and places. and where there was elaborate cover up. the kind which does not happen by accident or bumbling. <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: bottom rung

Postby havanagilla » Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:28 pm

i would add just a note on the role of psychiatry, both pointing to the obvious structural conflict of interest (big money, pharma, gov - perps) but even methodically, the concept of "delusions"...child psychiatry etc. thinking about the collusion of the discipline with former grand scale cover ups (holocaust, sorry for bringing that up again), is something I take notice of and in the context of what we know in Israel as "soviet psychiatry". (namely, extensive and methodical use of psychiatry in oppression of political dissidents. in fact, soviet trained psychiatrists actually have devised elaborate scholarly definitions of political dissent AS medical condition etc.). and the more recent discoveries of collusion in torture, political-medical research of moslem activists etc.<br>mental health has become the loop hole on which the legal system relies in order to avoid enforcement.<br><br>(just a recent example from here. President Katzav turned out to be abusing and raping several assistants systematically and using "mind control" threats systems on them. his first response to the allegations was to try and prove that the complainant is clinically unstable. and I am sure she was, justifiably distraught, following her ordeal...).<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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psychs

Postby blanc » Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:07 pm

thanks for pointing that out hava. I agree that there is what amounts to tacit collusion from the profession as a whole, alongside the more extreme examples of abusive psychiatry. I think some of this tacit collusion comes about because psychiatrists find they must act in the real world - ie with the resources and limitiations imposed on them and in fear of the legal threats and manoevres which can be made. <br><br>this keeps on pointing back to power behind the scenes, influencing what can or cannot be diagnosed, researched, etc.<br><br>the holocaust has many lessons. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: psychs

Postby Gouda » Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:18 pm

speaking of which, just saw this: <br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>The American Psychological Association Meets Dr. Mengele<br>APA Confab Whitewashes Torture by Shrinks, By Dr. TRUDY BOND</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.counterpunch.com/bond08232006.html">www.counterpunch.com/bond08232006.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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data dump question (parapolitical angle)

Postby nashvillebrook » Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:42 pm

anyone have info on RA associated with or connected to military psy-ops?<br><br>anyone have info on RA associated with defense contractors (florida-based?).<br><br>abu ghraib... gitmo... ritualized sexual abuse in military ops or terror ops...<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: what we know

Postby biaothanatoi » Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:17 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>First, I don't think it is fair or correct to say that parapolitically-minded researchers want to hear about mind-controlled presidential sex slaves. I don't.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>I wasn't taking a swipe at you. But we need to be aware of the power dynamics behind <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>whose</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> RA stories get told and <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>how</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> they come to our awareness.<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>it's just that we have heard about them, whether we like it or not, from the victims themselves.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>And let's take a look at which books have the most prominence in "parapolitical" circles. <br><br>Kevin Marron's account of ritual abuse in a public housing estate in Canada? No MC, no "elites", just poor people hurting their kids. Not prominent.<br><br>Sara Scott's interviews with British ritual abuse survivors? No MC, no "elites", just poor people hurting their kids. Not prominent.<br><br>Lorena and Levy's collection of survivors autobiographies? No MC, no "elites", just poor people hurting their kids. Not prominent.<br><br>Kathleen Sullivan, John Marks, Alex Constantine, Fritz Springmeier, Corey Hammond, John deCamp, Svali, Cisco Wheeler, and so on? MC, elites, satanic cults, rich untouchable people doing what they want, "they are too strong, we can't fight back", etc. Very prominent.<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And I think it is an overreaching generalization to say that by looking into high-level elite ra and mc, one neglects to see the rest.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>Not at all. Nobody is interested in downtrodden, messed-up, abused, drug addicted, poverty-stricken families that rape their own children, pass them on to others, and worship Satan in their spare time. These are the cases that go before courts of law and get convictions, but not even the media bothers to give them more then a few hundred words, because they are so morbid and depressing. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: what we know

Postby Gouda » Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:57 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Nobody is interested in downtrodden, messed-up, abused, drug addicted, poverty-stricken families that rape their own children, pass them on to others, and worship Satan in their spare time.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> That's all too true, unfortunately. <br><br>I also think it is true that people tend to want to go after "the big fish" rather than the smallfry perps since it is the big fish wreaking more havoc in more ways. <br><br>Acknowledging, however, the inclination of people to be attracted to the more spectacular (and profitable) horror stories of elite ra, mc, murder and torture should not preclude the reality of these acts and their implications even if some of the authors/researchers you listed do engage in subterfuge and misdirection, shuttling people into a shocked, misinformed paralysis. <br><br>I'd hope that just because investigation into these things has been done wrong so often, this does not mean it can't be done right, against the odds. <br><br>Despite the manipulation of some of these authors, I don't think you are saying that the victim's testimonies involved there are not credible or deserving of further investigation, exposure & justice. I think you are saying that those victims get recognition (though not justice) at the expense of all the others. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: what we know

Postby havanagilla » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:33 am

of course the murder of Rabin and JFK gets more attention than gang members killing each other in a slum. same goes for 100 dead from India (in some terror act) hardly get the same attention as 2 wounded victims in london from same terror act.<br>same goes for the fame of the perp (a minister engaged in indecent exposure of penis will get healines whereas one thousand rapists from the Congo, will possibly get not mention at all).<br><br>--<br>if you get raped, choose a famous offender....more likely you'll get attention, but in both cases (famous and not) the likelihood for justice is not high. apparently the mere gruesome style of the crime does not guarantee media attention, unless it is very uniquely perverse, and it took place in a country "that matters". (first world). <p></p><i></i>
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what we know

Postby blanc » Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:24 am

at risk of being overly repetitive, when it comes to ra, at least as far as UK is concerned, the depth of cover up which prevents the investigation of so many 'little' cases, is there because the PTB can't risk the lid being taken off. <br><br>its a humane version of the brabant killings (<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :D --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> )<br>victims buried* en masse while still alive. <br>*figuratively<br><br>when representatives of victims have made a reasoned approach to Police organisation, asking for a review of procedures, and got the slap down that none of the Chiefs of Police know of any ritual abuse cases, in defiance of the allegations brought by so many, the research undertaken nearly 20 yrs ago by Scotland Yard, the few publicised cases which have come to court and the cases held in camera, you can be sure as hell there is organised cover up.<br><br>when operation ore comes to a grinding halt after its enquiries touch someone close to Downing St. and no resignations follow, you can be sure there is organised cover up.<br><br>when the full machinery of state, including public interest immunity certs have been weilded to smother the trail of arms deals which link to the belgian case (how could they not! follow the money ) you can be sure there is organised cover up of ra.<br><br>when a former senior civil servant is arrested for rape, and there is practically not a whisper in the press, and no mention anywhere of the nature and extent of the crimes that arrest entailed, when he is released and the whole thing blows away quietly - you can be sure there is organised cover up of ra.<br><br>when the cases which result from the inconvenient discovery of bodies, such as West case and Soham case, get done and dusted on the lone predator ticket despite evidence to the contrary, you can be sure there is organised cover up of ra.<br><br>In a way I may seem to be arguing against myself, I mean don't push aside the interest in the more extreme cases involving big shots entirely, just be wary of going off on a limb.. . since we never get these guys banged to rights we cannot know anything about either their state of mind, or the supposed antecedents of their behaviour. and what we are looking for is always maximum amount of confirmation from separate, and if pos. reliable resources. so for me , no vague chunterings about illuminati, or ancient elite rituals and esoteric religions. just the straight dope. who said what when, is there anyone who can confirm. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: what we know

Postby Gouda » Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:33 am

New (old) category: "organised RA cover up" <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gouda@rigorousintuition>Gouda</A> at: 8/24/06 8:34 am<br></i>
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