Israel shelling Lebanon

[havanagilla]

Yes smithtalk, Jaffa is nice :-), and 1994 was a totally different time tunnel (the peak of the illusion ?). <br><br>News this morning here, signs of cease fire, or some moderation in the horizon. Reports are talking about 58 deaths in Lebanon. <br><br>The minister of defense here, Amir Peretz is under fire from all fronts (someone wrote an op-ed here called "Peretz is to blame for everything", mocking the new trend to lay all the problems in the world on his nomination. Rumors here are saying that the IDF (Dan HAlutz) took advantage of the new, civilian leadership of Ulmart and Peretz (both have no military experience) to fool them into this situation, in order to establish the superiority of the Junta. <br><br>I am now interested in a new little civilian campaign to smear MK Israel Chasson from the fascist racist party "Yisrael Baitenu". Its a bloggers initiative, following his proposition to ban anonymous backtalk and make it unlawful. (namely, to force all websites/blogs, to require registration and make all backtalkers to use their real names). <p></p><i></i>

[SpamDestroyer001]

This is really horrible news. Absolutely outrageous!<br><br>Why can't they just leave Lebanon alone! <p></p><i></i>

[Joe Hillshoist]

hava I hope you and your son are safe in that messy part of the world as it seems to be getting worse there.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[havanagilla]

thanks joe. well, its not like there's any visible difference in my surroundings (except reports and news). its a bit of a routine in this region. <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br><br>"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. <br><br>Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."<br><br>-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials <br><br>îúåê:<br><br>Gilbert, G.M. Nuremberg Diary.<br>New York: Farrar, Straus and Company, 1947 (pp. 278-279<br>(.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br><br>One good thing about the Nazis, they didn't worry about pretenses. So you get a glimpe at reality from time to time, reading their diaries and speeches. Same leaders, same sheeple, same war, same shit.<br><br>--------------<br>Ofcourse, israel has "lost the war" a long time ago, in terms of letting it become a culture. Nothing good comes out of military dictatorships, except highways and railroads (in our case even that is not happening...). <p></p><i></i>

[Joe Hillshoist]

This is even older than that Goering quote...<br><br>Randolph Bourne is a great writer:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>With the shock of war, however, the State comes into its own again. The Government, with no mandate from the people, without consultation of the people, conducts all the negotiations, the backing and filling, the menaces and explanations, which slowly bring it into collision with some other Government, and gently and irresistibly slides the country into war. For the benefit of proud and haughty citizens, it is fortified with a list of the intolerable insults which have been hurled toward us by the other nations; for the benefit of the liberal and beneficent, it has a convincing set of moral purposes which our going to war will achieve; for the ambitious and aggressive classes, it can gently whisper of a bigger role in the destiny of the world. The result is that, even in those countries where the business of declaring war is theoretically in the hands of representatives of the people, no legislature has ever been known to decline the request of an Executive, which has conducted all foreign affairs in utter privacy and irresponsibility, that it order the nation into battle.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>War is the health of the State. It automatically sets in motion throughout society those irresistible forces for uniformity, for passionate cooperation with the Government in coercing into obedience the minority groups and individuals which lack the larger herd sense. The machinery of government sets and enforces the drastic penalties; the minorities are either intimidated into silence, or brought slowly around by a subtle process of persuasion which may seem to them really to be converting them. Of course, the ideal of perfect loyalty, perfect uniformity is never really attained. The classes upon whom the amateur work of coercion falls are unwearied in their zeal, but often their agitation instead of converting, merely serves to stiffen their resistance. Minorities are rendered sullen, and some intellectual opinion bitter and satirical. But in general, the nation in wartime attains a uniformity of feeling, a hierarchy of values culminating at the undisputed apex of the State ideal, which could not possibly be produced through any other agency than war. Loyalty — or mystic devotion to the State — becomes the major imagined human value.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>Even the world Cup doesn't do this in favour of the state, the nation or country sure... but not the state, that coldest of cold monsters. <p></p><i></i>

[Joe Hillshoist]

Oops<br><br> <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.bigeye.com/warstate.htm" target="top">heres the link</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> <p></p><i></i>

[dranek7]

My questions may sound completely nuts, but here goes...<br><br>What would be the result of Israel using a nuclear first strike to annihilate a million Palestinians? If not a million, then how many should be ethnically cleansed?<br><br>Would it perhaps shift Israel from being seen as a perpetual victim in the US government's eyes into an aggressor? If seen as an aggressor, would that stem the multibillion dollar flow of US aid to the Israeli government? <br><br>I pose these questions because there has been an incessant level of suffering faced by the population of both sides in the conflict for 60 years. It makes me wonder is it better for millions of people to be murdered by freedom fighters, soldiers, guerrillas and terrorists over the course of a century...or could a tactic so catastrophic and over-the-top as a nuclear war end the fighting.<br><br>If If Israel were to follow the nuclear path, its military and political leaders would have to fall on thier own swords. Moreover, the US would have to cut all or most of its military support. Besides the massive casualties and loss of damage, such a strike could ignite a regional nuclear arms race which could spread to countries outside of the region facing conflicts. If the US stands down and exercised real diplomacy in Iraq and Israel, perhaps such a conflict could be avoided. <p></p><i></i>

[Joe Hillshoist]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If not a million, then how many should be ethnically cleansed?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>None would be good.<br><br>I seriously doubt it would do anything to change the view of the Israeli govt in the minds of the US government, cept maybe make them jealous. <p></p><i></i>

[havanagilla]

Nuclear weapons in that situation is impossible because of the proximity, nobody will risk that plus a lot of the places are considered holy by jews as well, (the land, not the people who are now inhabitting them, and according to the fundies are not the rightful owners etc.). Unless there is some new nuclear stuff which is dispensible and without pollution. I doubt it. BTW they don't need nuclear weapons to cause a relocation/or cleansing. This is unarmed population, it takes much less to do that. <br>--<br>And i agree with the poster above, it will only make the US a bit jealous that they didn't get to do it as well. Mind you, the level of hatred I am picking up against arabs as race/ and islam as religion, from the americans is way up there, and MUCH higher than the average israeli opinion (until recently, when US propaganda has filled the minds of the youth, AND the additional half mil new immigrants from former USSR, who are racists...as i've never seen before, being usual white and their culture is more continental which means less pluralistic). So the average sabra my age, has had no particular aganda/bias against Islam for sure, and some national hatred of arabs in the sense of national conflict. However the new spirit coming from the USA is different, it implies some "inherent" flaws in the arab race, with some "good points" for Christian arabs (an insignificant minority anyway). <br>--<br>I am sometimes reading or listening to those arguments (the american version), and I am just speechless, mainly because of how stupid is it. (example - from last week on the beach, by new age, "nice" youth. saying "the arabs in the darkness, we do wish they would go out in the light (namely, we are good newage people) but you have to admit they are now in the dark" . On asking why ? the answers I get - "who is able to blow himself up among people ...or who is able to kill their daughter/sister because she dates someone they don't like". Both are indeed shortcomings, but when you raise the shortcomings of the west (to which the speakers allign themselves in the war of civilizations) - such as the habit of gassing some millions of innocent lives every now and then (WW2), economic disparaties that cause millions of unnecessary deaths, etc. etc. - you get this veiled look, of dumness and stupidity, or you realize they are just being hypocritical knowingly, and like they feel that YOU must be stupid for stating the obvious , without realizing you are missing the point (it doesn't PAY to say that). So either this is sincerely believed, OR I am the idiot for doing the "king has nas no clothes" drill. Perhaps the second option is plausible...or more plausible. Actually, I am going to stop doing that. <br> <p></p><i></i>

[Joe Hillshoist]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> "who is able to blow himself up among people ...<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Maybe someone who has suffered and lost so much that they see no hope for the future and the only hope for their people is their actions.<br><br>Which I agree is a pretty dark place to be. But not deseving of the bullshit response your new ager gave. Compasssion and a desire to stop the situation that drives people to such despair would be a fair response.<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I am sometimes reading or listening to those arguments (the american version), and I am just speechless, mainly because of how stupid is it. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I hear you. But as Gurdgieff once said "How can you expect fairness and decency on a planet of sleeping people."<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Actually, I am going to stop doing that. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Hava don't let the bastards grind you down. Someone once said freedom is best defended by the exercise of freedom. If you stop arguing they are closer to winning.<br><br>I know its draining sometimes, but don't stop being free just cos the world is full of dickheads. <p></p><i></i>

[Gouda]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>but when you raise the shortcomings of the west (to which the speakers allign themselves in the war of civilizations) - such as the habit of gassing some millions of innocent lives every now and then (WW2), economic disparaties that cause millions of unnecessary deaths, etc. etc.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> Yes, drives me crazy too, but Joe is right - keep pinning them down (otherwise known as "education") on this shit - and then do it some more. Be relentless. This projection bias and/or willful ignorance, hubris and arrogance simply needs to be slapped down. <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>How</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> to do that, though, is the key. Shouting at shouters would not work - carefully reframing the argument and patiently working in facts, in fact jujitsu-ing their own arguments and then helping them back up onto their feet with a humble alternative perspective, perhaps, dunno - it does take patience and stamina. But I see no other choice. Withdrawing like they do is not an option. <p></p><i></i>

[havanagilla]

oh, i will not stop thinking what I think, but talking where your words are not well received is useless and provides psychological needs, rather than practical goals. Since I am catching up on some decades of "lost time", and growing up NOW, i am becoming aware of society. Namely, looking at the range of the powers around me, who have an interest in inciting that kind of hatred, for the purpose of war, which serves other interests...well, i'd better change a subject, than "teach" :-). In fact I realized that sometimes teaching way elicits the opposite response (namely, more resistance).<br>---<br>I am thinking also that sometimes people are actualy hanging on to those false beliefs in order not to feel so slimy and helpless. Namely, if I were a 20 years old guy in Israel who needs to do through socialization (IDF service etc.), i'd rather adopt, even tactically, those opinions about arabs, cause i would have to kill some of them anyway. now killing when you don't believe in that, could cause what is called PTSD (shell shock of sorts) and i've seen soldiers like that (Vietnam is known, but in Israel, especially Lebanon war produced thousands...), they are "living dead" for the rest of their lives. TV had a documentary about one such, heartbreaking. He is really a cute guy, who was "king of the nightclubs" in tel aviv, successful designer and extremely gifted pianist. He was in reserve service in 1982, and took part in a gruesome event in a school, where "things happened" (he has blocked a lot, but remembers the final scene of him spraying about 8 suspects who were rounded up there) and later all he remembers is himself finding a piano in the school and sitting there playing for hours until he was "shipped" back to the looni bin in Israel. The guy is a living dead, and what he feels is that he is Cain, with blood on his hands and does not deserve to live so he is a looni now, also developed heart condition as a result of stress and living on the margins, his only friends are homeless people who have also been in prison for murder. (he feels like he belongs with them). The truth of the matter is, that of all the soldiers out there, he is the one who deserves to live, and live well, because he knows that what he did is murder, he said the war was wrong, he resisted but had to go along. But he is the one inflicting pain on himself and "teaching"..but this is the wrong way to teach. And I feel that doing that, is self destructive, and only proves to the others, that its not good to be humane, and that its' more adequate to adopt the rationalizations for the war, at least for your mental health, and social perks. <br>The irony with "people" is that, suppose a really bloody general or commando warrior, after committing hundreds or atoricities and crimes, if he is willing, one day to release a semi dovish, or moderate statement, will be awarded and rewarded MORE than the PTSD guy, of course, both by the pacifists of the world and the warriors. So people, as herds are a treacherous crowd, one has to guard one's soul from all kinds of extremities. <p></p><i></i>

[blanc]

hope you stay safe jc and hava, in you respective areas <br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[jc]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>you realize they are just being hypocritical knowingly</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, and like they feel that YOU must be stupid for stating the obvious , without realizing you are missing the point <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>(it doesn't PAY to say that)</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>goes for that and practically everything else we discuss here: lawyers, politicians, "academia," the "media" including <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>hell</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->ywood.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>“It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his NOT understanding it</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->” – Upton Sinclair<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>on edit: forgot to include the "healers:" psychs and doctors. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jc@rigorousintuition>jc</A> at: 7/14/06 7:53 am<br></i>

[Gouda]

hava, I hear you. Depends on who you are beating your head against and the context...if it truly is worth it. Probably easier for me over here at starbucks. <br><br>jc: great on you for the U. Sinclair quote. <p></p><i></i>