Iranian leader denies Holocaust (BBC)

by **scollon** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:50 am

Is this guy looking for trouble or what ? <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4527142.stm">news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middl...527142.stm</a> Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has called the Nazi Holocaust of European Jewry a "myth". "They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets," he said in a live television broadcast. Mr Ahmadinejad called for Europe, the US or Canada to create a Jewish state there, instead of the Middle East. Israel swiftly denounced the president's comments, which echo remarks he has made in recent weeks.

by **hmm** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:31 am

if one looks at the original quotes and reads them carefully (and account for translation differences) you would find he did not deny the holocaust or call for israel being wiped from the map,he may mean that,but he didnt say that. he did say that Israel will be wiped from the map,that is not the same as calling for its destruction or ordering it. <a href="http://www.afp.com/russian/news/stories/051208200429.75g9lzgl.html">www.afp.com/russian/news/...9lzgl.html</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>You believe the Jews were oppressed, why should the Palestinian Muslims have to pay the price?" he asked in an interview with Iranian state television's Arabic-language satellite channel, Al-Alam. "You oppressed them, so give a part of Europe to the Zionist regime so they can establish any government they want. We would support it," he said, according to a transcript of his original Farsi-language comments given to AFP. "So, Germany and Austria, come and give one, two or any number of your provinces to the Zionist regime so they can create a country there... and the problem will be solved at its root," he said. "Why do they insist on imposing themselves on other powers and creating a tumour so there is always tension and conflict?" ~snip~ "Is it not true that European countries insist that they committed a Jewish genocide? They say that Hitler burned millions of Jews in furnaces... and exiled them," he said. "Then because the Jews have been oppressed during the Second World War, therefore they (the Europeans) have to support the occupying regime of Qods (Jerusalem). We do not accept this."<hr></blockquote> so one could explain this as him denying the holocaust,but to me it reads as: so you europeans say the holocaust is the reason Israel is a state,and you europeans are responsible,why do the palestinians have to pay the price. As a European i have some sympathy for that point of view. the "bad translation" of his words by the western media is interesting?

by **scollon** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:32 am

I think you are reporting a different speech. He is saying similar things again and again. This is the first 'holocaust is myth' statement I've heard. It's understandable that Jews wanted out of Europe completely at the time. My problem with Israel is the same as many orthodox Jews. They could have stayed in Palestine without a racist, oppressive Jewish state. I perfectly understand ordinary Jews wanting to be safe in Israel, no question but it would never have happened or been sustained without Anglo American oil interests in the region. They are the ones that maintain the military power of Israel, not the Jews themselves. In other words, Israel is an Anglo American military outpost. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=scollon>scollon</A> at: 12/14/05 5:35 am

by ir » Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:44 am

europe was unable to protect the lives of the jews and in fact it took 50 years for europe to re-issue passports to families of holocaust victims who either were murdered or expelled. But only a minority of those who were slaughtered, have had that privilege. For instance, my maternal great grand father and mother were both slaughtered in Babi Yar (Belarus) by Nazi occupying troops, did the germans ever compensate us? not in your dreams and I am not entitled to return to either belarus or germany, even if i wanted to. we are not even considered victims, because my grandfather had the good sense of leaving belarus just in time, to palestine, but 7 of his brothers were murdered there by Nazis. In terms of Germany today, I am not entitled to anything. \ no one means seriously that israel will be shifted now (which reminds me the surreal recent novel by Phillip Roth, where something like this takes place), but Europe does have to pay the full price of the resettlement of the jews and the palestinians, and to facilitate the peace process with genuine concern and investment in the prospering of the region for both poeples. the price should not be born by anyone else, certainly the palestinians deserve a full rehabilitation of their lives, those who have been living in refugee camps for decades now. This will also ensure that the USA financial investment in the continuous state of war there, will be checked. Thos Jews who do want to immigrate to the lands of their dead/exiled ancestors in germany and the region should be allowed to do that as well. in fact many israelis now applied for Polish passports, who is now part of the EU, and certainly many applied for german passports. I even know of algerian Jews who now apply for french passports based on the old arrangements of colonized Algerian Jews.

by **hmm** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:59 am

you are right this is the second time he is "in trouble" for remarks regarding to israel and i should of made clear that both statements as brought to you by the MSM are "inaccurate" and posted links to alternate versions of both statements. this was in the bbc piece you posted regarding his first statement: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The president sparked international outrage in October when he said Israel should be "wiped off the map".<hr></blockquote> this is how the Iranian INRA reported the remarks: <a href="http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-17/0510264068140136.htm">www.irna.ir/en/news/view/...140136.htm</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad warned countries or leaders who have taken measures to acknowledge the Zionist regime under pressure or due to lack of sound understanding that they will be confronted with the wrath of the Islamic ummah and will forever be disgraced. Speaking at a conference dubbed "World without Zionism" here Wednesday which was attended by thousands of students, he said any country which acknowledges the Zionist regime will actually be acknowledging the surrender and defeat of the Islamic world. He further expressed his firm belief that the new wave of confrontations generated in Palestine and the growing turmoil in the Islamic world would in no time wipe Israel away. Ahmadinejad referred to the Zionist regime's recent withdrawal from the Gaza Strip as a "trick," saying Gaza is part of Palestinian territory and the withdrawal was meant to make Islamic states acknowledge the Zionist regime of Israel. Pointing to the evil attempts of the US and Israel to saw discord among warring forces in Palestine and other parts of the Islamic world, the president said such attempts were aimed at forcing some Islamic countries to acknowledge the existence of Israel. <hr></blockquote> this is not calling for israel to be wiped away at all unless my understanding of english has radically changed. i was trying to show that the western media is going out of its way to twist his words and take them out of context. I have read many articles reporting both remarks and the various ways he is "translated" is amazing.. to be clear i am not a holocaust denier and certainly dont believe that Israel rules the UK&USA,but i would say that Israel has moved beyond being a mere military outpost (it has functioned as one in practical terms ofcourse) to being a willing "partner in crime", especially considering it has its own nuclear arsenal now (and the means to deliver them in a 5000 mile radius). i really do understand that alot of jewish people felt the need for a state and self-determination/protection after WWII,i just feel that the state should of been in europe or the usa,the whole idea of founding a jewish majority state in a place with 90% arab population is perverse in the extreme considering what had just happened to the jewish people at the hands of (other) fascists. It is also important to remember that zionism as a movement started in the 1880's,before hitler was born, and that its solution to the real problems those of jewish faith faced in europe is as racist and nearly as opressive as the nazi's was. As a left-of-center european i am aware of the horrors of the holocaust and one of the biggest shocks of my life was when my picture of the beauty of israel and its kibbutz's collapsed when i learnt more about the plight of the palestinians and the history of zionism. What i am trying to say is i dont believe that it could have been possible for "the jews of the world" to all move to palestine without there being racism and oppression of the arab population already there.I cant think of any historical or recent precendent for "original" inhabitants of land to peacefully and willingly allow inhabitants of other pieces of land to go from a minority to a majority of the population in a short timespan.And zionism supported by the UK and later the USA made this possible.

by ir » Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:59 pm

i can believe his words were twisted by western press, its part of the gamerules. Usually, I take the time to look at al jazeera to see what arab leaders in fact said... HOwever, regardless of whether he did or didn't deny the holocaust he is saying something else we are both addressing. I think he is saying something which is partly true, namely, that Europe caused the mess and it should be the one to help figure it out. under my worldview I don't see why the Jews can't just live where they want to, but of course ww2 proved they couldn't at least in europe. i also suspect that millions of wild israelis would not be desired by europe as well, although usually Jews are not a burdensome immigration in terms of money, but there are other considerations. I did post a while ago the address by the jewish Lord Montagu of Brittain, objection Balfour declaration and Zionism altogether for very good reasons. Although Zionism started in 1880, the condition of the jews around that time were not great as well, nobody dreamed of genocide then but being constantly perscecuted and on "the move", is impossible as well. one does not have to be put in auschrwitz to feel oppressed and persecuted. mostly, this was the case in russia. jews should have been allowed to settle in palestine, but not the way it happened and i also agree that israel has gone berserk practically and so even without the problem of palestinians one would have to address its policies and nuclear threat. the most realistic approach now is not to discuss another relocation, and suffering, but to see that the division of the land is carried out justly and peacefully while investing all it takes to rehab the parties and create a saner regime in the entity reserved for the jews. Many israelis now are calling for a bi national state again, seeing the "bantustan" plan for the coming palestine. I have a strong belief that most of this is money question and stronger intervention on site, by europeans, stating their mission clearly. As I stated here earlier in posts, had Israel not gone berserk and deprived palestinians of homes, the conflict was (is) solluble in terms of coexistence, as there basically no racial issues, and the religions are not in conflict (as one knows from christianity and judaism/islam they can actualy coexist. At this point however, a very wild and aggressive atmosphere prevails here, making more palestinians homeless, and of course this cannot be upheld or tolerated. israel is 'grabbing' land, knowing that soon the party will be over and peace arrangement will be imposed. however, certanily, the USA cannot broker any agreement as it has direct stakes in keeeping the blood shed and keeping israel in its current, miserable, shape of a military dictatorship. the USA has to be pushed out of its position in the conflict resolution and instead europe should step in, with backing of real money and determinatino to set right what they have messed up in the last century here. People like you should show a willingness for your government to dedicate time, money and efforts to sincerely ending the conflict,which means that some risks will be there, as well and your tax payers money will go outside your own economy. there is no other positive outcome to the region, especially if the USA continues to pump racism, messianic doomsday scenarios and black magic all over the place. i think in that sense Iran's president was stating that he prefers the USA less prominent in the region and that was his way to provoke Europe to take vigorous steps towards that direction. I beleive many israelis share this view. As I also wrote elsewhere, from here things are different, people are not hating him, or iranians in general. but the feeling is that the USA is pushing for a bombing and israel will have to comply and pretend its its own initiative and the generals love the idea for the elections.

by **hmm** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:18 pm

people.. i really worry that the situation with israel could end in a nuclear exchange or the destruction of large parts of the jewish population,i worry too about what history has in store for the ordinary jewish population after the jewish state fails.. i think the "best" outcome might be similar to what happened in south-africa,with a right to return for the displaced palestinians and "truth&reconciliation",but that would mean the end of israel as we know it. So from my perspective peace will only come to that region when both israel and the usa cease to exist as we know them now. For the ordinary people of the world i hope this happens peacefully,but i fear those in control dont see it that way..

by **scollon** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:23 pm

"Europe caused the mess " Not really, a few nazis sponsored with large amounts of American money caused the mess. As far as I'm concerned, the Iranian president is being extremely bold and I assume he has Russian support at the back of his mind when he challenges Israel. Putin is not a man I would like to push too hard, he has always struck me as a cold, calculating psycho. You don't get to be a big time KGB chief by showing your boy scout badges. If they attack Iran, WWIII steps up a very significant level. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=scollon>scollon</A> at: 12/14/05 12:29 pm

by ir » Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:36 pm

there is always hope for improvement. a nuclear bombing should be avoided at all costs, and I don't see anyone interested in doing that. but i do see a possibility of conventional disaster, or perhaps biological weapons. nuclear bombs are a bit "out", because everyone around gets hit, certainly arabs have no desire to kill their own. --- the christians have been causing much more troubles to jews than moslems that's for sure, and personally i think israel should join hands with its arab neighbours to get the region decolonized, including the Zionist regime as we know it now, and all the outcomes of colonization by this regime. responsible people cannot just throw ideas that will bring about death to millions. however, what happens now has to be stopped. as i said, I think europe will be forced, especially the UK, to take a closer look at peace solutions here, while exerting pressure on israel's government to calm down. Blair's conduct in Iraq, though was not exactly a trust bruilding step, in terms of the arabs here. fantasies on how the USA and israel go up in infernal flames are not only futile and impractical, they are also inhuman. even the bombing of drezden was questionable. children and women dying is not my preferred scenario, whoever they are. I trust the president of Iran to see the wider picture as well, and hopefully these big words will end in peace agreement between israel and iran, under the conditions that israel withdraws to either 67 lines or 47 partition lines, and europe taking up the restitution and rehabilitation of refugees. As for the USA we hope that Bush sinks deeper in the mud in his own country, so that the will to run the world, will decrease soon. This will also do good for the citizens of the USA who deserve better than to be an evil empire, with so many poor and homeless in the "golden paved streets". I do expect though, israel to continue being (smaller or bigger) a country with a very corrupt government, for as long as the american jewish community and european and russian jewish oligarchs are buying it piece by piece as a quickmoney scheme. that said, i am going back to find out whether I have a case to claim damages from germany now.

by **scollon** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:49 pm

" trust the president of Iran to see the wider picture as well, and hopefully these big words will end in peace agreement between israel and iran" No, this is bigger than Israel, the game has always been Jewish security PLUS Anglo American golbal hegemony through oil. Iran has to go - not in a nuclear holocaust but a Western funded revolution after the country is defeated in a war. The Iranian president's speeches may be part of the plan. I would be VERY surprised if he wasn't manouvered into power (whether he knows it himself or not) by MI6/CIA - the accusations were made. He is the perfect excuse to start shooting.

by **hmm** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:01 pm

i'm sorry if you took what i said to be a wish,it is more that if i take what is happening in the usa and israel and the uk's complicity (as entities not peoples) to their logical conclusions most outcomes seem to lead to disaster for the ordinary people. i believe in reparations too,but how can we in the west ever recompense for the mess we have made globally while the current systems remain intact?and how does one organise against this multi-billion dollar entity,and change it in a peacefull manner? i am interested in your thoughts on if the israeli population would be ready to let all the palestinians and their decendants return,and if a one state democratic solution for palestine could be possible?

by ir » Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:47 pm

i truly hope you are not indifferent to death of mass populations. I was just reading a journalist post in israel (hebrew only) who says that israel canot blame iran's president for denying holocaust when israel has been doing the same with regards to armenian genocide, in order "not to upset turkey" (same goes for kissing the ass of china, with regards to tibet). let's put thing in proportions. israelis are now more aware of scams, and many believe that Sharon simply wants to delay his jail time, by getting re elected at all costs, and same goes for bush and his "grand middle east" plans. Let's also not be naive about the iranian ruler. the regime is a fiasco that causes suffering to its own people, just watch the number of refugees especially women who couldn't stand being thrown back into middle ages roles. In addition, the real intent is to manipulate the arab world's response to this nuclear program. its easier to say the usual crap about israel (they have been doing it always) and shut the mouths of the arab opponents. do not forget that the more immediate threat by iran is to sunis and generally arab neighbors and superpowers, they don't like each other, and have a history of blood shed, worse than anything we have known in Israel. So, we have three fairly despotic corrupt and RICH tyrants who have a mutual interest, right now to heat up the scene for the sheeple to be afraid and wet their pants. The way to offset this danger is to get sharon the hell out of politics before March. and the host of corrupt politicians and ridiculous general and war criminals party "Kadima". Haaretz main article today about Iran is to hasten the withdrawal from the territories so that iran cannot use israel's occupation as a pretext to get nuclear arms. --- as for you question. right now talking about return, is on the verge of unacceptable here. But this is also part of the negotiation stance, and israelis are aware of how important it is to keep a united harsh facade. however, jurists and academics are working on hypothetical solutions and formulas, perhaps selective return etc. The preferred solution in israel is to reach an agreement with a recognized leadership of palestinians to exchange right of return for a meaningful withdrawal and a recognition of a palestinian state (now, someone said that sharon will add Egypt as a party, and take some of northern sinai to be In the new palestinians state). This is what sane Israeli are having in mind, I think as a platform for permanent solution. among the left wing there numerous suggestions, ranging from "cancelling Israel" to bi national state, federation of states with jordan as well, and what not. But really, looking at the realities here, it is not even reasonable to think of "relocation" of Israel, or "grand return" into the current israel, and such like, without major bloodshed. I think if someone is truly concerned with preventing unnecessary suffering here, for all parties, it would be wise to now focus on restoring at least a pseudo facade of democracy to Israel, namely, plaincg meaningful pressure on Israel to curtail the power of the military in government and civil life, to hold generals accountable to war crimes, to diminsh the influence of american money on our political system, namely, restoring some semblence of normalcy to the regime. its really become more like columbia here than you can imagine. columbia with nuclear arms, biological arms, hi tech capacities, racist doctrines, brainwashed population, barons of drugs and mobsters, and a lot of paramilitares just doing here what they want. each having his patron somewhere in florida or washington or more so new jersy. (or Russian mobsters ! who cannot be controlled at all, like really rich mobsters who robbed Russia, killed and stole, and came here once they needed to launder money, get a "title" and immunity). This is not good ! but I think before going to radical scenarios which nobody can perform or even wants to, there are reasonable steps to take. there are pending law suits in England against some generals, what going on with that ? Former israeli GSS chief Avi Dichter has been sued in the USA this month, its important to support it. I dno't suppose it will result with victory, but at least a good fight can be waged, so that he and his friends and colleagues realize there is another side to US and world public opinion. If they are just a bit less smug, you have less house demoiations, torture and reckless bombing which can lead to some chain of mad events. --- Lastly, i think the best route as I said it to show civic involvement with YOUR government's policy to israel. show that you don't like military cooperation, urge them to impose sanctions on occupation, and back it with demand to support peace forces instead. After all Israeli generals are not working in vacuum. ---- Merkel's government today cals US kidnap of Masri a CrIME and denies cooperatoin. Do you believe the CIA ca kidnap people all over the world without European secret services agreement ? NO ! make your voice count in those issues. They are doing the same here.

Iranian leader denies Holocaust (BBC)

Iranian leader denies Holocaust (BBC)

Re: BBC's revisionism and what was really said

Re: BBC's revisionism and what was really said

hmmm indeed

Re: sorry my post wasnt clear

hmmmm

Re: history (and christianity) have been cruel to the jewish

Re: hmmmm

perhaps

Re: perhaps

Re: wishing for flames

israel-iran

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