Horrors in Gaza

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Re: Activism vs Martyrdom

Postby AlicetheCurious » Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:46 pm

What can I say? You're right in so many ways. Nobody can argue that participating in a demonstration in New York or Vancouver involves the same commitment as participating in a demonstration right next to the separation barrier, or standing in front of a bulldozer. But I think you're taking the narrow view in saying that the contribution of one is necessarily greater than that of the other.<br><br>I have to repeat, the way you see things as all or nothing is paralysing, and unrealistic, and ultimately serves the purposes of the enemy. You seem to expect that either there will be one dramatic act to resolve the situation overnight, or all is lost. <br><br>Demonstrations, letters, boycotts, lectures, screening documentaries, workshops, etc., etc., will not by themselves save Palestinian lives, nor will they stop the Israeli military machine. But what they WILL do, is create and maintain a vital fertile ground where information and help can be exchanged, and where new things can continue to grow. <br><br>Palestinians live with death, they are born to a world where death can be as near as the chair next to theirs in a classroom, or their bedroom window, or around the corner as they're going to the store. No Palestinian family has escaped the devastation of losing of someone they love, but ask any Palestinian, especially the ones directly in the line of fire, and over and over again, they will tell you that the death they fear most of all, is the death of memory, the death of their identity, their death AS A PEOPLE.<br><br>Remember, twenty years ago, the WORD Palestinian was a virtual taboo.<br><br>Forty years ago, there was no "Palestinian cause" at all -- the Palestinians themselves were voiceless and invisible. The "PLO" was created at the time to be a puppet of various Arab regimes, designed to further their own hidden agendas, and its so-called "head" Ahmed Shuqeiri, was a clown for sale to the highest bidder, with no credibility and not even a pretence of speaking for real Palestinians.<br><br>'The Palestinian Problem" was a <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>refugee</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> problem, dealt with mainly by providing sacks of flour and tins of oil, maybe a few lentils, to the human beings packed like animals in subhuman conditions, behind barbed wire.<br><br>Although Yasser Arafat has been libelled and slandered and mythologized beyond recognition, and nobody will argue that he was perfect, most Palestinians deeply respect him for his single greatest accomplishment, which was to wrest the "Palestinian cause" away from the Arab regimes and the UN bureaucrats, and put it firmly in the hands of real Palestinians.<br><br>One way he did this, was by taking a handful of "camp" refugees who had lost all hope, as he once put it, and turning them into resistance fighters. The contrast between the ragtag Palestinian men and women who had taken up arms to fight and sometimes even score victories against the Israeli forces, and the hypocritical rhetoric of the "suits", was devastating to the so-called "Palestine Liberation Organization", which was exposed as the fig leaf it was. That was how Fateh came to take over the PLO and how the PLO became the voice of Palestinians, and how the Palestinians went about breaking the wall of silence and indifference that had buried them.<br><br>It's easy, from one's comfortable armchair, to criticize the way some renegades later went about it, plane hijackings and the like. Yet those same critics had no problem celebrating the "birth of Israel" and less of a problem consigning generations of Palestinian survivors to a living hell.<br><br>Many of those same critics think that it's perfectly reasonable to subject 1.4 million people under military occupation to starvation, depriving them of water in the scorching summer, bulldozing their homes and killing several people, including children, in order to obtain the release of one occupation soldier.<br><br>So, f**k them, until they can come up with one moral yardstick for measuring all acts, regardless of who commits them.<br><br>But armed resistance is only one very small aspect of the Palestinian struggle. Even more important is the constant nurturing of a vibrant and evolving Palestinian identity, and of Palestinian generations capable of leading and defending their people, at home and abroad, not militarily, of course, but culturally, politically and legally.<br><br>When one Palestinian is murdered, thousands of people march in the funeral, console the family, provide them with shelter if their home has been destroyed, share their food and raise the orphaned children. Other Palestinians inform the outside world, through photos, video and testimony, and records are kept by the many Palestinian NGO's, and shared with their counterparts abroad through a global network formed between foreign and local activists.<br><br>Doctors, teachers and engineers are trained and hospitals and schools and roads are built and equipped because of this network of local and foreign activists. Psychologists are trained and volunteers come from abroad to help traumatized people cope with the horrors they've experienced.<br><br>These people, and so many others, did not start out as informed activists. They may have started out as someone who saw a poster for some lecture, or who met someone during a demonstration, or whose university or church or school screened a documentary film. Who knows what brought them to that critical point where they had something to give and the motivation to give it, and how many lives were saved because of that? <br><br>How many Palestinian lawyers and doctors and nurses and teachers and musicians and artists and writers and contractors and film-makers and journalists and physical therapists, owe their very existence to the assistance they received from countless faceless people who couldn't, or wouldn't go to Palestine, but who gave or did what they could? Who only learned that Palestinians even exist as people, not as a bunch of bloodthirsty fanatic "terrorists" because of the countless anonymous individuals who worked so hard to inform and educate people in their societies?<br><br>To you, maybe they are playing "a game", they're irresponsibly "egging people on"? Who are they "egging on"? Palestinians don't need to be "egged on" to fight to survive, to fight the occupation. And to be an activist is damn hard work; the only reward you are likely to get is spiritual and moral. If you need to be "egged on" to do it, you won't last long. <br><br>I think a big part of where you're coming from, is that the Israeli Left, the Israeli human rights activists, tend to be isolated and scorned among most Israelis, when they're not being accused of treason etc. It's very hard to be active and make a contribution without the moral support of a strong network, people who care about each other and will cover each other's back, eat and talk together, baby-sit each other's kids, argue and discuss various issues and strategies, etc.<br><br>The Palestinians may be weak militarily, but they are very strong emotionally and morally and spiritually, partly because of their circumstances, which force them to be interdependent. But a big part of their remarkable stoicism and high morale in the face of a vastly more powerful, genocidal army, comes from the certainty that they have right on their side, and that there are good people all over the globe who recognize this.<br><br>They know that they will pay a very high price as individuals, but they also know that they have no choice.<br><br>They're taking the long view, because the short view offers nothing but despair. Nobody's offering them compensation or even a viable alternative, so the only question left for many Palestinians, is whether to die in silence, or to die shouting to the world and to their own future generations. <br><br>They've chosen to shout, and are asking that their shouts be heard. Not everyone hears their shout in the same way: some hear it as a call to immediate action, others to open their hearts and minds. Note that their shout has gone from inaudible to loud in 40 years, two generations (an instant in Middle Eastern time).<br><br>Why are you telling people not to bother, to shut their ears, to shut their mouths, because it's not enough? What alternative are you offering? Are you sure it's necessarily better? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Activism vs Martyrdom

Postby havanagilla » Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:14 pm

That's a long response. I will be brief though, I think that what had worked before may not necessarily work now, or is not working now. While there was a certain peak which was around the mid 90's, things are different now, and also the level of suffering, the level of power exerted, etc. I would want to think you are right, that doing more of the same is helpful, my personal experience goes directly against that. There is NO israeli left now, as there is nothing like an American left, and this was not the case earlier. I think we are looking at a different war now, its economic, it is about control, it is more brutal and sophisticated, and the left you are describing is not up to it. If the israeli situation is an example, that not only was it wiped out, it was made to serve the war during its process of dying an ugly death, same with the US left branch. (including the dem party). The palestinians...I would like to believe you are right, but truly I don't know enough of their past, to appreciate the difference of the present. I suppose asking them would be advisable, but I cannot see the Palestinian people voting Hammas 20 or 30 years ago, and this for me as a DEFEAT, of the recent years, of very sophisticated US psyops and deep plowing. If you think they are happy now, well, so be it. From what I see in the headlines, they are not. egging, was referring to NOW, not 20 years ago. <br>--<br>The dissintegration of the Israeli left is directly connected to its dependence on US support, which vanished one ugly morning. The attempts to rebuild, based on european support...and even latin american ties (re the socialist parties and communists..), we'll have to see if it amount to anything, and if so, it would take years and years of work against the stream.<br>--<br>I think you need to update your sources...<br>--<br>The war now is against Pfizer, halliburton and such like, it has<br>much less to do with the old divisions, and I am not sure what are the news ones. <br><br>on edit- referring to a few more points in your post. I think Arafat was a good leader, all in all, for his flock, which is why he was removed. You cannot, though, ignore the fact that removing arafat the way it most likely happened (even if not poisoned, being confined to the Mukataa that way, sure lets the stress work with the age ..to cause desease) - was not thinkable before. the rules changed, the MO changed and responses MUSt change to be effective. <br>--<br>Slimmouse mentioned on another thread, that the state of the average israeli psyche horrifies him. This might be a concern, but it seems that his solution is euthanesia ? that's where I feel that the more vociforous critics lack any sense of compassion that can lead to effective transformation. this is certainly a position much more radical than the palestinians themselves hold, so, let me just question the motives again. Which brings me back again to the clients vs advocates issue. taking the palestinian issue as an example. While you are describing the ample help they received from western do gooders (or non western, for that matter), i doubt that very much in the last decade, and I have been around to see. I saw, instead, a lot of cooperation bn palestinian orgs abroad and israeli/jewish dissidents than any other partnerships in the left (not talking about religious partnerships and governmental partnerships, these are not my focus or interest). Even the Brittish-palestinian groups, very effective btw, are usually in full cooperation and synch with the Israelis, and the more effective actions are the ones done together (boycot; academic boycot; war criminals prosecutions). Whereas, non palestinian advocates tend to focus more on how Israel is bad, but didn't see them sending food to gaza or putting pressure on Egypt to increase humanitarian aid, or god forbid allow family unifications in its territory. So, when all the activism is strangely focused against israel, without any commitment to the palestinians, I tend to see this as ineffective THESE DAYS. Same goes for putting pressure on respective gov (canada, UK, USA, Germany) to increase the usual help the extend to refugees, even on the level of immigration. Now we hear that western union and likewise are not willing to make money transfers to people in the USA who have arab names...where is the american LEFT ? <br>---<br>And canada ? where is the food not coming to gaza ? and where are all the deported palestinians ? that should be easier, to protest against that, than against mad dogs with nuclear bombs here in Israel. Yet, this is NOT done by the activists for some reason. I am sorry to break the news, but the activism you are referring to exists in two universities in the USA who will soon shut down their "post colonial studies" departments and some youth in vancouver who under the slightest pressure from the Mounties (known to be the nerds of the world police forces and a joke among the criminals and terrorists) will stop even that token activism. All the rest of the world is dancing to a different tune, if you didn't notice that yet.<br><br>Last but not least, as I said earlier on this board. I personally received much more real support (with risking asses on the line ) from the Palestinians than ANY western "activists" who have nothing at stake, except the fear of israeli retaliation which is far fetched on foreign territory. So, I will not be tempted to take one of the polarized sides you are drawing. they don't exist anymore. <br><br>--<br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=havanagilla>havanagilla</A> at: 7/6/06 5:42 pm<br></i>
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Re: "The Big Picture"

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:14 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>On the other hand, Israel's targetting of civilians and civilian infrastructure is a war crime, no two ways about it. Israel is a Jewish supremacist apartheid nation, one of the world's most powerful militaristic states, led by criminals who commit daily acts of terrorism against a helpless civilian population.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I have a mate whose old man was in the ANC.<br><br>He was actually a white Seth efrican, dunno if he was afrikaan or not. He got out not arrested, but a friend of his was. He was Jewish, tho I dunno if he was born in SA or not. But because of his Jewish heritage the Israeli governemnt lobbied hard to have SA's then apartheid government release him, if he went to Israel to live. (Nothing wrong with the Israeli govt doing that BTW, I wish the Aussie govt looked after its own with the same committment.)<br><br>So as soon as he was free in Israel he basically started saying the exact same thing as the quote above.<br><br>I am sure the Israeli govt at the time was real happy with that.<br><br>I dunno his name, but perhaps that story sounds familiar to our fellow posters that live there. Rinng any bells Hava?<br><br>BTW The apartheid laws were based on the Queensland Aboriginal protection act of 1928. Don't have a link for that one, but I am sure anyone who really wanted to test the veracity of that statement could.. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: "The Big Picture"

Postby havanagilla » Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:01 am

<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>yeah, the statement encapsulates the essence of the israeli regime, i agree.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->as for the ANC person, there were a few. One of them recently was interviewed, and said same, lives in Herzliya, can't remember his name. most of those liberals who managed to come here joined the local dissident groups, and some left israel realizing its impossible for them to live here. <br>There's one other, though, somewhat half famous journalist who was among the voices against appartheid, there, but here he is usually brought up as someone who makes "valid distinctions", can't remember his name, too. He was the one whose response was published in brittish media, following the academic boycot. (but privately, his friends say, he just wants to keep his job).<br>--<br>my point with alice was NOT whether or not the israeli regime is as bad or not (i think we agree on most of the descriptions), rather - 1. what to do. 2. that I feel there is literally NO distinction made bn the regime and individuals (while in appartheid days, nobody ever did that to the private citizens including the worst collaborators, because we know how hard it is to oppose govts who use force against political objectors). Only in the case of Israel, all the israelis (and for some, all the jews) are held responsible by their genetic affiliation. alice didn't say that, at all, i was referring to trends in the world, and on this board, she was not addressing, and what effect that might have on people here. <br>--<br><br>I know about the australian-aboriginal situation a little bit as i once did a bit of camparative research on "indigenous people" and found some materials, but also found very progressive laws and decisions of the present time, where your gov is trying to adress some of its violations against those people. <br> .<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: "The Big Picture"

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:47 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I know about the australian-aboriginal situation a little bit as i once did a bit of camparative research on "indigenous people" and found some materials, but also found very progressive laws and decisions of the present time, where your gov is trying to adress some of its violations against those people.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I have to say if thats the impression you got the propaganda machine is doing an awesome job. The situation re Indigenous people In Australia is appalling, and most of the laws you are referring to have been dismantled or undermined via beurocratic stupidity and general human (including indigenous human) ineptitude and selfishness.<br><br>Mind you 12 to 15 years ago things seemed as tho they were going along very well in some respects. there was a recognition of stuff thats been forgetten, and an acceptance of indigenous culture as a vital part of the Australian nation.<br><br>But that was in the past when were older and wiser, well more mature and more compassionate anyway.<br><br>Now that mention the apartheid activists, I think my friends dads friend left Israel and was disillusioned with it. He may have gone to Britain. I think he was arrested at the same time as Mandela, and locked up in the same prison.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Only in the case of Israel, all the israelis (and for some, all the jews) are held responsible by their genetic affiliation.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>i think the same thing happens to yanks actually. It seems far more directed at the US than Israel in Australia. I know we don't get that much of that sort of abuse, and we definitely deserve it the way our craven cowardly executive (a conga line of suckholes as they were once referred to in Parliament by an ex federal opposition leader) branch of governemnt has followed dubya like their collective...<br><br>All those whitefellas with brown noses...<br><br>Yeah I have sometimes thought that way about Israel and "the Jews", but at the same time (I know how trite this sounds) one of my best mates is Jewish, and so it never goes that far. For a start he is one person who definitely understands, empathises with and supports the Palestinian people. It is just laziness. We all have racist tendencies too, even when they are not specifically aimed at anyone for any reason. Its just so easy to fall into generalisations. And not all prejudices are race based.<br><br>To tell you the truth I had an uncle when I was younger who was one of the most anti semetic people I had ever met.<br><br>I won't repeat the jokes in case you find them offensive, but they were just peurile and not very funny. I didn't really get them. And at primary school sometimes kids would throw lollies into the air, scream "Jew Jump" and then others would all try and grab the lollies... I never really made the connection between Jew in that case and the concept of Jewish people. I don't really think I understood what was meant by "Jew" in that context.<br><br>My parents had one of the first mixed marriages in their part of the world, so I guess I don't see differences between people that others might.<br><br>And yet, despite all that anti racism I still find myself thinking about "evil Jewish Bankers" before I think of "evil WASP ones", and they are probably worse...<br><br>Hugh should do an analyses of why thet meme is so predominant. Especially in conspiracy circles. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: "The Big Picture"

Postby havanagilla » Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:23 am

Precisely, the legal material I am referring to is 15 years old (the "illusion of good time", not just in your place, but everywhere). I know australia, too, has joined the Bush train to no where, it makes sense though, considering the kind of multinational corporatism coming from Washington, and the will to survive. The influence of the US on its "allies" (via threats) is minimized, regertfully, and everyone is busy blaming the others for "giving in", but truly who isn't ? (except the Latin Americans and Zimbabwe ? we should look into the sacrifices they make, and also their more progressed stage in terms of US intervention, they have been through the loop in its entirety). <br>--<br>I am thankful for your candor re jews and culture, its more than one usually receives here. I am aware of the 'little cultural racisms" like you mention, and I am also not paranoid about them, but they are there. Autralian soldiers are a good romantic memory in Israel (they were here during and after WW2), and in fact my hometown, which was founded 1882, split at some point, because of some feuds and family disputes, and a HALF moved to auastralia, and kind of formed a "mirror site" :-), that's history though and they are long since integrated into the larger country.<br>--<br>WHy Jewish bankers ? i imagine it has roots in history, and because the rate of jews among bankers is higher than their general rate, and that's also true in other professions (ie "millionnaires" ?). I am sure they are in the plots and conspiracies up to their heads, as part of the "social class".<br>--<br>SA is a good example of what usually happens in the JEwish people...there's a tyranny, the established leadership ducks and hugs the tyrant, saying they need to take care of OUR survival, and the world is tough, the tyrant is happy, they get rich, they get entangled in crimes against the local people, they get hated, and then they can say the world always blames the jews. Then, there's a minority, but vocal and effective liberal jews who join the oppressed, they get the heat from - 1/ gov. 2/jewish people (you are endangering us) 3. rest of the world (the jews are to blame for - 1. the tyranny AND the dissent, depends on what the person thinks. so the jews brought the tyrant, the jews are "communists" who opposed the tyrant wrongfully (says the conservatives), and "the jews play both sides" say all the rest).<br>--<br>case closed. <br>--<br>Frankly, my interest lies with opposing the reflex of the jewish leadership to join the tyrant in the first place. But then its a very un-rewarding job, as this does not bring you many friend anywhere. <br>--<br><br>same dynamics plays out with Bush now, and I think the australians are a bit more objective about the situation, seeing who is the major player (USA) and who is playing the traditional role of a whore/rothweiler. Maybe the geographical distance provides some perspective on size and numbers.<br>--<br>An aside, I was a bit disappointed with your gov for not getting a little bit deeper into the Lati scam, re the sex offenses/stalking and later the attempt to bring in Scher who was implicated in worse sex offenses in Brazil. Your gov simply acted locally to turn out the fire. too bad, they had a chance to make a difference for us, the Israeli citizenry. but then, one cannot expect foreigners to interfere for the sake of altruism..and risking a rift with the Israeli gov. <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: "The Big Picture"

Postby AlicetheCurious » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:05 am

I think that bringing South Africa into the discussion is a great idea, because of the parallels, and the fact that South Africa actually represents a "success story". The activists calling for divestment, for the dismantling of the apartheid system, got what they were asking for. But as far as I can tell, very very little has changed, behind the cosmetic makeover.<br><br>That's why the long, hard, tedious work of changing hearts and minds may not be as romantic as a sudden collapse of an evil system, but at least it brings the hope of a true change for the better.<br><br>Hava, I don't disagree with you for the most part. But you didn't respond to my central point (probably because it was buried in a big pile of words - sorry, I can't seem to stop myself these days). <br><br>Maybe activism and spreading information and humanitarian aid and education and training won't stop the Israeli military machine. But compare say, what happened to the people of East Timor, and what's happening to the Palestinians, bad as it is.<br><br>The Indonesian military, armed and supported by the US (the great humanitarian president Jimmy Carter was at the helm), systematically massacred over 200,000 East Timorese, 1/3 of the total population, without one word of protest, without even ONE ARTICLE in any US newspaer, mentioning this little bit of news.<br><br>200,000 of our fellow human beings screamed, shouted, begged, bled and died, all without making a sound. Their killers travel freely, not bothered by concerns that they may be arrested for crimes against humanity. Jimmy Carter humbly blushed as he accepted his Nobel Peace Prize, and his wise counsel is sought on all kinds of global issues. Kissinger, who generously gave permission to the Indonesians to carry out the slaughter, is much sought-after as a speaker at distinguished gatherings.<br><br>Maybe you're right, maybe I am caught in a time warp. I grew up at a time when the myth of the moral, courageous, generous Israeli army was unquestioned in what was then called the First World, and Israel was seen as a civilising influence on the savage, ignorant Arab barbarians. My political science prof in the 80s taught, in the only class at my university on the 'Arab-Israeli Conflict', that the lives of Palestinians were so much improved by the occupation (he didn't call it an occupation -- it was a transfer of sovereignty, I believe, from the barbaric Egyptian and Jordanian governments to the vastly more advanced and humanitarian Israeli democratic government -- lucky Arabs!)<br><br>Anyway, yes, there are things that are worse under the Bush/Cheney, but the glass is both half-empty and half-full.<br><br>For one thing, the lines are drawn more clearly than they were. Things may have to get even worse before they get better, but the lies are threadbare and people who normally would not question their governments or their tv 'news' are turning away in disgust and seeking facts -- and finding them, thanks mainly to all those activists you disdain.<br><br>If the Israeli Left is weak and dispirited, that weakness was always there, but paved over and ignored. The Israeli Left was built on an irreconcilable contradiction: Israel is fundamentally at its core, a racist, expansionist colonial state, irreconcilable with Palestinian national, civil or even human rights. In order to preserve a state with a majority Jewish population, with a Jewish "character", then there is some dirty work to be done, otherwise in a couple of generations those nasty breeding Arabs will be the majority. The Jewish Left have always wanted to have their cake and to eat it, too. <br><br>Enter the thugs, the 'extremists', the armed religious fanatic settlers. The Israeli Left kept their lily-white hands on their picket signs, pretended to be shocked -- shocked! at what the nasty 'right-wing' was doing.<br><br>They sang their little songs of peace, warned ominously that Israel was 'in danger' of 'losing its way', meanwhile the thugs were knee-deep in blood, the rubble of destroyed homes and towns was being bulldozed to make way for exanding Jewish settlements, growing numbers of faceless Palestinians were hoarded into camps and prisons, and the number of dead and maimed and orphaned went up and up and up.<br><br>When the Palestinians responded with the first and then the second Intifada, the Israeli Left threw up its hands, declared that the Palestinians had been given every chance for peace, but it was no use, and many of them voted for Sharon. "We've tried negotiations, and now, Sharon is our best hope for peace with the Arabs," went the popular thinking. <br><br>The Israeli Left died then, if it had ever been alive. The rotting corpse has kept on walking and making noises with its mouth, but the stench has become truly unbearable. Maybe you were fooled by that, and that's where your bitterness and hopelessness comes from.<br><br>But that's not the case with ALL the resistance. I personally feel very ambivalent about Hamas, but I think that's because I don't see it as a monolith, but made up of complex individuals who interact with their environment just as we all do, who both change and are changed by it.<br><br>The resistance takes many forms, the key is to find the form that doesn't force you to lie, either to yourself or to others, and that doesn't turn you into a pawn on somebody else's chessboard. <br><br>It's not easy to have to think, and face ugly things, but embracing reality means opening our eyes to incredible beauty as well as ugliness. It's about using your own eyes and ears, and mind and heart to discover the truth, not being seduced by slogans from one side or another.<br><br>In some ways, it's about saving your own soul to start with, because you can't help anybody if you are lost yourself.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: "The Big Picture"

Postby havanagilla » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:28 am

so what was the main question ?<br>--<br>I don't agree re the description of israel. Left means a few things. Left is in "dove/human rights" - about this you are totally right. But, israel was by and large left socially, which I think was a huge difference on the lives of the palestinians (and ours), it was secular-socialist (and at the same time colonialist/transferrist/racist vis a vis the palestinians). there is much more hope in that structure than what we face now, so your analysis, as i said, is relevant at the latest to the 90's.<br>--<br>The current situation is totally different. The two lefts collapsed, and I mourn the more meaningful one's death than the so called "american sponsored" civil rights/human rights community. <br>--<br>Hammas for me, as the radicalization of Israeli religion and fascism is a lethal blow for long range damages we cannot yet foresee, and reminds me of the devastated Iran. (i am no fan of theocracies, although I suppoted the revolution against the former shah, theoretically). The question is really, suppose the fantasy of israel withdrawing and collapsing whatever, what kind of life people will have. <br><br>I can see where you are coming from about the israeli peace community, but I resent the tones. People are born here, they are born into a reality they did not create and they are, in that respect, limited by circumstances and thoughtforms. "killing" (negating their existence) them in the mind is not helpful, especially when they, for the time being, have the upper hand. The image of the savage arabs (to match other colonialist/missionary imagery) is mostly a western creation, be advised that half the jewish people are arabs, and the other half mostly originated in shit hole Shtetles of eastern europe, but are led to think they are WASPS :-). <br>--<br>Saving my soul is indeed paramount, and my body too. <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: "The Big Picture"

Postby AlicetheCurious » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:04 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The question is really, suppose the fantasy of israel withdrawing and collapsing whatever, what kind of life people will have.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Absolutely. Absolutely. I think this is THE question, ultimately the only question that matters.<br><br>As for your other point:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>israel was by and large left socially, which I think was a huge difference on the lives of the palestinians (and ours), it was secular-socialist (and at the same time colonialist/transferrist/racist vis a vis the palestinians). there is much more hope in that structure than what we face now<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I totally disagree. That's like saying that life was so much better for the patient before his cancer was diagnosed. Either way, it was there, and it was spreading. Whether it's the neocons in the US or the right wing in Israel, emerging like a big fat tumor that appears overnight, when the illusion of health was no longer possible, some people freaked and gave up, dropped out, etc., and some got down to business. Looking reality in the face can be very painful, but much more empowering than the alternative.<br><br>Look again at the Cockburn article -- you prefer your poison candy-coated, or clearly labelled? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: "The Big Picture"

Postby havanagilla » Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:57 pm

Well, its one way to look at it, if you believe in a hegelian hsitort, etc. I am not sure the neocon monster was a necessary evolution from the previous, unsatisfactory condition, but considerably better and more hopeful. But that's a point for debate. I also think, that wars should be avoided even if the purpose is to oust tyrannies, and some tyrannies collapsed or imploded without "external drama". Its a world of shades. I also believe, if we take the SA case the a timely and earlier transformation of the gov (even only maintaining the somewhat corrupt brittish labor party in gov) would have been better than what we have now. it is not I who wait for cataclysmic changes, as you were suggesting earlier. But then I don't live in Capetown now, and most of the Afrikaners are doing well in canada these days.<br>---<br>I don't see what the happinness is all about...if israel collapses, do you think the USA, UK, Germany, and what not, and other will pull out of the Mideast and leave the oil just there...pure and pristine as was the case, perhaps before ...what ? israel ? I stlil think it is better not to be occupied, but i'd hope for something better than turning the life in the mideast to what we see in africa, for instance. <br>--<br>I am aware of the plight of the peoples here, i am just wondering how this can be prevented from further becoming worse, considering the larger forces at play. <br>--<br>It seems that I am repeating myself, and I don't see anything in Cockburn article that is new to me or "stripping" something from what i live daily. He is giving a fair description of the situation, without many suggestions on the practical level, but at least not the usual "one step behind, small case response" to events here. Does Bush get really sad that he is lying ? is her concerned with the ethics ? no, and this is how the world is, good morning. So, again, repeating what we know, is not helpful even if repeated ever so LOUDER.<br><br>I return to my original statement, precisely that kind of wallowing in "oh we see through the lies of power", are proving to be unhelpful these days. Rather, this rhetoric falls in the plans of POWER. So, there's a clear impass here, and I am still waiting for some suggestion on how to become effective, not addicted to preaching which makes the three and half people who already know it, very happy for 1 minute. next, as someone said, we'll have "antiwar righteous CARDS and valentine pins.".<br>I am looking now at HMW's thread about the productino company, they are precisely using YOUR activism (some documentaries, some liberal do gooding in comfort zone) and coating with it THE POISON. This is how the worked the Iraq campaign and I can imagine them right now planning the next outrage, in the same manner, using the same hyped up preaching and fanatasies of the remains of the losing left. BTW, what you say about the siraeli left, applies equally to the USA. And what other left do we have left ? "blame canada" ? I don't want to slide into ridiculing this kind of stance, from the cynical place I am in (seeing the outcomes and living them), but lets get ourselves beamed back to orbit, so we don't start believing that "we create the universe with our thoughts"...etc...<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: "The Big Picture"

Postby AlicetheCurious » Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:32 pm

So, what do you suggest? I believe that the vast majority of people have an innate sense of justice, and some common sense. But a minority, a tiny, sick minority, are controlling much of the information flow that reaches the majority, presenting them with distorting images and lies to frighten them into jingoism and hatred, thereby abdicating their power to their dear leaders.<br><br>I'm suggesting that there is room for everybody to make the contribution they can, even if it's just chipping away at the demonizing stereotypes and the big lies, for a few people at a time. Knowledge is power, or the bosses wouldn't devote so many resources to making sure it's either suppressed or distorted, no?<br><br>No matter how dedicated and talented and wonderful, it's wrong and dangerous that all we need is another Nelson Mandela, or Ghandi, or the countless martyrs and heroes who have devoted everything they have to liberating their people.<br><br>Societies are not liberated by heroes, unless those heroes inspire enough individuals to take responsibility for their own actions and beliefs and destinies. If we've learned anything from the experiences of the past, it's that there will always be attempts to dominate and enslave people, even in nations founded on the principles of liberty and equality. In other words, it should be clear by now that even after people achieve freedom, they can never go to sleep, they can never allow themselves to feel complacent, or to be lulled by leaders who say, "Trust me."<br><br>Like you, I don't like theocracies, for the same reason I always disliked and feared the flag-waving 'patriotism' of the Americans. Any excuse to shut down people's minds, manipulate their emotions and impose a program raises my hackles.<br><br>Democracy requires that the population is well-informed, used to critical thinking and asking questions, and has the necessary protections to prevent citizens from being terrorized or punished for exercising their rights. <br><br>If people are slaves in their minds, or have given up responsibility for their beliefs and actions to some authority, then there really is no hope.<br><br>The only hope we have is that more and more people will become disillusioned with their handlers, become tough and smart, eventually overcome or outlive the pigs, and that the lessons learned will become another chapter to add to history's volume on man's ingenuity in devising ways to enslave and oppress his fellow man.<br><br>By the way, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea that "we create the universe with our thoughts". <p></p><i></i>
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Re: "The Big Picture"

Postby havanagilla » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:38 pm

i'm really not proposing anything proactive anymore, i was just de-proposing the old activism, as counter productive for this round of war.<br>I prefer right now to stay a little longer with the not knowing what to propose, and also reserving my right to refuse the acceptance of propositions which do not resonate with me, now.<br>Ghandi, in my example was a person who stood with his clients, and was also killed, himself (not sending others). His cause is irrelevant for me now (nationalism in general), but the character is still somethine I can appreciate, if only for the courage. Our time is kind of slimy and produced slimy, slick people, and so i suppose mingling and learning the art of slickness it what I need now for survival. All we can do around here is to perfect our ability to use our mouth in a way that doesn't get you into trouble and pleases all the mafiosies you have to deal with, starting with the municipality, the local education boards and teachers, the local social assistance commissar, and the higher you go the more complex it becomes. Every person I meet is somehow connected to some mafia here (otherwise they would not survive) and so I am going to look for the respective, least damagin mob to sustain me, until some clarity returns to Israel or something else happens. <br>--<br>Personally, my only role here right now could be to expose the personal web of my perps, and bring some order to that aspect of my life, which indirectly might affect other lives and who knows, even more than that. I am starting now very gradually and carefully, and my current little big war is with a certain corrupt department in the Estates and Wills wing of the Justice department. Digging a bit deeper there, already exposed a pandora box of mafia pulling the strings. At the same time, I have two other wars, one against an internet provider corp, one of those killer corps that would not allow you to disconnect from them, and so they charge you on and on even after you switched to another provider, and then hire a sleezy lawyer who forges the papers and says you signed something and gets an ex parte judgment for ..say 100 $ and another 300 $ fees. They the bring the sheriff and take your stuff. I've had one of those last year and I filed a cimirnal complaint against them and won. But really those little big corporate crimes are part of what is going on here, more than our talk about "the evil IDF", its the same structures shitting on people and eating them alive. And then another little big war with social assistance, who since they day I published in my blog the NAME of my ex spouse/handler, stopped paying me and there are all kinds of weird magical things happening there too, untangeling the way of indirect bureaucratic oppression is crucial to democracy. These days, they don't throw in jail for revealing state official secrets (thus getting all the alices in the world excited and happy to write long speeches for freedom of speech) they start with the bureaucratic torture/corruption, and the next thing, you find yourself behind bars for a false debt, or you just commit a convenient suicide when your car is stolen, you house is wrecked and its all "coindicence" and has nothing to do with your political dissent.<br>These are MY wars now.<br>00<br>on edit, nowadays nobody would bother shooting Ghandi and "making him a martyr", they would get him into a long and quite unasthetic pulmunary disease with some gastrointentinal discomforts that create a caricature out of him, or some skin disease...that slowly wipes him out, no finger prints no martyrdom. these are the cowards that run our world and we should respond accordingly. <br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=havanagilla>havanagilla</A> at: 7/7/06 3:51 pm<br></i>
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The Big Picture

Postby AlicetheCurious » Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:54 am

That's why we can't depend on a Ghandi, or any other hero to come and save us. Too easy to cut down. The leader/follower model has been exposed as a catastrophe in the making.<br><br>That's exactly what I've been arguing in all those big piles of words, that each person has to take responsibility, has to stay awake, has to become what they've always wanted others to be. No more saviours, no more gurus, no more prophets.<br><br>If you follow like a sheep, chances are you're heading to the slaughterhouse, even if you're following that nice shepherd who always took good care of you in the past. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: The Big Picture

Postby havanagilla » Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:37 am

What you are describing as a state of mind is pretty much the ethos of israeli foreign policy (namely, not to trust the leadership of the world and kind of work always on its own, so that they don't go to the slaughter, as once was the case). <br><br>--<br>Leaders as in monrachs or commanders, no, but leaders who can responsibly represent the will of group in a given mission - its a must. I once mentinoed here that the concept of the Jewish messiah (according to Maimonidas, kind of mainsrteam scholar) is - an honest leader. that's all. <br>--<br>I agree we are close to anarchy, especially from the resisting side, but not to give up on political representation. <br>-<br>In my case, the structures are aiming at my annihilation, so surely, trusting them would not be advised. (never was, wish I knew it earlier). <br>--<br>I think the guru model is bad for politics but we cannot just give up on politics, can we ? that's how BushCo and his likes (here especially) got in, the first place.<br>--<br>I don't know how it feels on the other side, namely, to be a youg successful right wing israeli, possibly one feels totally different, maybe trusting their superiors, feeling more secure.<br>The left (ahem) has taken a blow in the leadership area, but also, there are some inherent problems with the representational politics these days, when it comes to socialist bodies etc. never mind, its a long story. But I think that just dismissing "politics" and "real life" is...ok, on the individual level, but not larger than that. Its not a message, its a sentiment of marginalization, self made or self taken. <br><br>--<br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=havanagilla>havanagilla</A> at: 7/8/06 4:51 am<br></i>
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Re: The Big Picture

Postby havanagilla » Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:35 am

just a dictionary explanation on what i mean that the activism you espouse is part of the "enemy's" arsenal. It seems that nowadays, when the PTB are releasing an issue, framed in the kind of language you are looking for (namely, freedom of speech, human rights etc. etc.) it is done on purpose. If they want to avoid the hype, they carry on the violation in a covert way that bypasses the law, doesn't go against it, rather crawls under it. The example of silencing is good. People who would qualify for Elsebergs these days, are not silenced by GAG order but are indirectly brought to their knees or discredited. It follows, that when an issue is allowed to take the form of a righteous, direct challenge of the people's rights, it is done with intent, and YOU are happy to provide the casting, and being so in love, infatuated with your old semi religious slogans, you will not even be able to resist the trap. or would you ? <br>--<br>I am bringing back our little discussion about the trappings of the canada refugee policy, when the heat of righteousness is always released conveniently against small fish from dictatorships who had no choices at all. You thought that "they were just doing their jobs". In re the Lebanese refugee who fled the Mossad SLA troops and was unhappy to find out he is going to be Alice's sacrificial lamb, so that everyone can say "yes, israel commits crimes against humanity in Lebanon". This knee jerk mob mentality of the left wing, is our worst enemy these days. Its like a robot that keeps shooting himself in the leg feeling so smug and righteous. If you cannot see that annihilating a two bit ARAB vilager for your 2 minutes smug smile and satisfaction of "telling it to Israel in the face", is idiotic and manipulative, then perhaps you should go on, i won't. This is a 101 trick you fall for HERE, so any slightly more sophisticated diversion will make you help Bush destroy your country and anything you hold dear, while you are singing all the way to hell...<br>--<br>Perhaps the old activists are just stupid ? <p></p><i></i>
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