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U.S. and Iran secret allies

Postby wordspeak » Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:26 pm

Well, I hope I'm not distracting from another enthralling back-and-forth here, but-- the Emperor's Clothes web site, www.tenc.net, makes what I think is a very compelling case that the U.S. is supporting a fascist element in the Islamic world. They're a left wing and 9/11 conspiracy web site the researchers of which have put a great deal of time into research on this particular issue, and I think people should read their stuff before further pontificating on the place of fundamentalist Islam in world affairs.<br><br>I believe we've been misled and distracted for three years with the threat of the U.S. going to war with Iran, when in fact the U.S. has been in bed with a controlling element of the Iranian elite for a long time. The primary purveyors of the war-in-Iran meme (on top of Bush's periodic threats) is CIA asset Seymour Hersh, whose famous high-level anonymous sources keep telling him that a war on Iran is imminent.<br><br>The warmakers want us to think "It's a war against Islam," but it's not that simple. It's a war against Leftism, more than anything.<br><br>I don't know why you'd call the article I posted above ahistoric because it only goes back to 1980; certainly you can see overt CIA involvement in Iran long before that, as we all know.<br><br>Here's one piece by TENC, "How the U.S. & Iran have Cooperated to Sponsor Muslim Terror" (full text below):<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/deja.htm">emperors-clothes.com/analysis/deja.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <br><br>And here is a link to all their articles on this topic, with the best stuff, IMO, under 2. Behind US actions, a semi-covert strategy of promoting Islamism:<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.tenc.net/iraq-iran.htm">www.tenc.net/iraq-iran.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>There are good photos included in this article, so it's best to read it on their site, but here it is anyway:<br><br>How the U.S. & Iran have Cooperated to Sponsor Muslim Terror<br>(And this while loudly denouncing <br>one another in public...)<br><br>by Jared Israel<br>__________________________________________________________<br><br>In a speech dated 31 March 2003, US Secretary of State Colin Powell accused Iran of supporting terrorists. And, said Powell, "Tehran must stop pursuing weapons of mass destruction and the means to deliver them."<br><br>An Iranian government spokesman dismissed Powell's remarks, saying, "The anti-Iran overture of the U.S. officials emanated from Washington's failure in its military scenario in Iraq." [1]<br><br>And an Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman added, "The U.S. unwavering support of Israel's state terrorism is a clear proof of U.S. double standards..." [2]<br><br>=============================================<br><br>Do harsh words mean war?<br><br>=============================================<br><br>Some critics of the US-British war in Iraq point to this exchange and to other statements, made by certain so-called neoconservatives, associated with the Pentagon. Based on the hostile statements made by the so-called neoconservatives and State Department people on the one side, and by Iranian leaders, on the other side, pundits of the left and right assure us that a) the war in Iraq is directed against Islam, and b) "Iran is next."<br><br>We have shown that *on the ground* Iran has quietly supported the US invasion. Odd behavior for a government that expects to be "next". [3]<br><br>But aside from that, the problem with the "Iran-is-next" argument is that harsh statements by top officials may be insincere. They may be intended to divert attention from the real situation, and/or to focus blame on a third party, a scapegoat (such as, for example, Israel).<br><br>It is even possible for intelligence officials from the US and Iran to meet for the purpose of planning public displays of mutual hostility aimed at diverting public awareness and scapegoating Israel.<br><br>Does that sound extreme? Read on...<br><br>=============================================<br><br>Public enemies, private friends<br><br>=============================================<br><br>Contrary to the mainstream media and supposed critics of US policy alike, Iran and the US have *not* had purely hostile relations since the overthrow of the Shah 24 years ago.<br><br>Rather, the US and Iran have had a complex relationship which includes attacking each other publicly even while they cooperate covertly to carry out sundry nefarious schemes.<br><br>That is precisely what happened in Bosnia in the early 1990s.<br><br>Let us look at the facts.<br><br>First, what sorts of insults did the US and Iran trade in the early 1990s?<br><br>Second, how do those compare to the insults they are trading *now*?<br><br>And third, in the early 1990s, were the US and Iran friends or enemies on the ground in Bosnia?<br><br>=============================================<br><br>Déjà vu all over again<br><br>=============================================<br><br>On 31 March 1993, UPI published a dispatch, entitled, "Iran Strongly Rejects 'International Outlaw' Label." [3A]<br><br>Some of it is quoted below. If you check back to what Powell and the Iranians said a couple of weeks ago, you will see that the 1993 insults were almost identical.<br><br>[Start 1993 UPI dispatch]<br><br>Iran reacted sharply Wednesday to remarks by U.S. Secretary of State Warren Christopher describing the Islamic Republic as an international outlaw and a supporter of terrorism, the Iranian state news agency IRNA said.<br><br>A Foreign Ministry spokesman in Tehran described Christopher's remarks as ''unfounded, worthless and an indication of confusion in Washington's foreign policy,'' an IRNA dispatch monitored in Athens said.<br><br>...[Secretary of State Christopher] also accused Iran of trying to acquire weapons of mass destruction.<br><br>The Iranian official said...Christopher's statement was ''aimed at diverting world public opinion from Washington's full-scale support for Israeli-sponsored state terrorism and for terrorist activities against those countries which oppose U.S. domination...''<br><br>[End 1993 UPI dispatch]<br><br>Replace 'Warren Christopher' with 'Colin Powell' and 1993 sounds eerily like 2003.<br><br>=============================================<br><br>Same script, same villain<br><br>=============================================<br><br>Note that in both cases, the Iranian fundamentalists shift the attack from the US to Israel. The intended message is that the US does bad things, but that that is *because of* Israel.<br><br>Please also note that the same thing is now being said by many right wing and left wing critics of US policy.<br><br>Christopher calls Iran a "supporter of terrorism," and the unnamed Iranian official replies that Christopher is only trying to divert people from US support for Israeli actions. Thus the argument ends up focused on...Israel.<br><br>But in 1993 Iran was not sponsoring terrorism against Israel *only*. It was sponsoring terrorism against Bosnia too.<br><br>=============================================<br><br>Dutch report: Pentagon secret service<br> directed Iran's Bosnian terror.<br><br>=============================================<br><br>Last year the Dutch government produced a report on Bosnia compiled based on an extensive study of intelligence documents.<br><br>Below is an excerpt from a (London) Guardian article summarizing the Dutch report: [4]<br><br>[Start Guardian excerpt]<br><br>Now we have the full story of the secret alliance between the Pentagon and radical Islamist groups from the Middle East designed to assist the Bosnian Muslims...[Meaning, the Muslim faction led by Alija Izetbegovic, which attacked the Bosnian Serbs, unlike the faction led by the more popular Fikret Abdic, which allied with the Bosnian Serbs - EC]<br><br>In both Afghanistan and the Gulf, the Pentagon had incurred debts to Islamist groups and their Middle Eastern sponsors. By 1993 these groups, many supported by Iran and Saudi Arabia, were anxious to help Bosnian Muslims fighting in the former Yugoslavia and called in their debts with the Americans. Bill Clinton and the Pentagon were keen to be seen as creditworthy and repaid in the form of an Iran-Contra style operation - in flagrant violation of the UN security council arms embargo against all combatants in the former Yugoslavia.<br><br>The result was a vast secret conduit of weapons smuggling though Croatia. This was arranged by the clandestine agencies of the US, Turkey and Iran, together with a range of radical Islamist groups, including Afghan mojahedin and the pro-Iranian Hizbullah...<br><br>Arms purchased by Iran and Turkey with the financial backing of Saudi Arabia made their way by night from the Middle East...The report stresses that the US was "very closely involved" in the airlift. Mojahedin fighters were also flown in, but they were reserved as shock troops for especially hazardous operations....<br><br>Rather than the CIA, the Pentagon's own secret service was the hidden force behind these operations...<br><br>When these [weapon] shipments were noticed, Americans pressured UNPROFOR to rewrite reports, and when Norwegian officials protested about the flights, they were reportedly threatened into silence.<br><br>Meanwhile, the secret services of Ukraine, Greece and Israel were busy arming the Bosnian Serbs. Mossad was especially active and concluded a deal with the Bosnian Serbs at Pale...<br><br>[End Guardian excerpt]<br><br>In the above text, author Richard Aldrich puts a remarkable spin on the Dutch report.<br><br>He argues that the US was pressured into supporting Islamist terror in Bosnia because it had to make good on debts to Islamic terrorists, linked to Iran and Saudi Arabia.<br><br>That is quite a statement.<br><br>Look what Aldrich is conceding: that US intelligence had been working closely with Saudi and Iranian-backed terrorists (e.g., the 'Afghan Arabs' and Hizballah) *prior to Bosnia* and that the US did not want to damage those relationships.<br><br>Aldrich claims that this is why the U.S. helped out in Bosnia - to keep those relationships alive.<br><br>But in the same article, Aldrich states that, according to the Dutch report, the US *controlled* the Bosnian terror operations:<br><br>"Rather than the CIA, the Pentagon's own secret service was the hidden force behind these operations..."<br><br>This makes Aldrich's argument preposterous. It would be one thing to say that the U.S. turned a blind eye to terrorist activities because it didn't want to alienate these terrorists and their backers in Saudi Arabia and Iran. But it is quite a different thing to claim the US took the initiative in organizing and coordinating a massive terrorist assault just to keep terrorist organizations happy. The fact that the Pentagon was the "hidden force behind these operations" shows that the Islamist terrorist assault on Bosnia was important US Establishment *policy*, not some weird fence-mending diplomacy.<br><br>The kind of spin in the Guardian article is often put forward when U.S. intelligence is caught organizing horrific activities. It is the Bumbling Bear Argument - U.S. intelligence does not *mean* to do bad things - it is naive and clumsy and therefore miscalculates, or foolishly tries to repay old debts, or isn't aware whom it is dealing with, or whatever.<br><br>(As discussed in "Worst kept secrets of the bumbling bear," the same sort of argument was made when the news broke that the CIA had been created by recruiting *thousands* of war criminals from Nazi intelligence. We were told that CIA Director Allen Dulles was supposedly fooled...poor bear...) [4A]<br><br>[Article continues after the photos]<br><br> <br>These soldiers are not Arabs. They are Bosnian Muslims, that is, Slavs whose ancestors converted to Islam during the reign of the Ottoman Empire.<br><br>Before the 1990s, people in Bosnia would have laughed at this sight, thinking the men were going to a costume ball. But nobody was laughing in 1995. The caption reads, "One of the Bosnian Army's Muslim brigades marches through Zenica in a demonstration of strength by 10,000 soldiers." The (London) Times, 11 December 1995.<br><br>This photograph was published in some Western newspapers, but only once. Indeed, the Western media published very little about the fierce fundamentalism of the Bosnian 'government' or about the money, weapons and thousands of terrorists shipped into Bosnia by Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and other Islamist states. And none mentioned that the Pentagon was coordinating this violent onslaught. Nor did the media tell people that Bosnian Muslims were divided, that a large number of them opposed the extremists or that many were allied with the Bosnian Serbs.<br><br>Deprived of this basic information, bombarded with media reports describing an imaginary secular government in Sarajevo, most people in the West had no understanding of what was happening in Bosnia. They had no basis on which to reject editorials like the one that appeared on 9 May 1993 in The Scotsman.<br><br>The Scotsman and other Western newspapers mocked the Bosnian Serbs, claiming they suffered from a supposed cultural paranoia concerning Muslims in general and Bosnian Muslim fundamentalist leader Alija Izetbegovic and his followers in particular.<br><br>The Scotsman wrote with heavy sarcasm: "The essentially secular Muslim credentials of President Alija Izetbegovic are seen as evidence of a plot to establish a fundamentalist Muslim state in Europe...an Islamic fundamentalist conspiracy which, in turn, no doubt, will be joined by Anglo American aggressors."<br><br>But as the Dutch government report indicates, the Serbs were quite right about the Anglo-American aggressors. And as for Mr. Izetbegovic's "secular credentials," he was openly a passionate devotee of the Ayatollah Khomeini. He believed it was an act of virtue to establish Islamic rule by violence. We have posted some of the thoughts of President Izetbegovic, so you can see for yourself. [8]<br><br>Were the Serbs paranoid? Keep in mind that the men in the picture above, dressed as holy warriors, were part of Alija Izetbegovic's army...<br><br> <br><br> <br><br>This Reuters photo appeared in The Independent, 11 December 1995, and as far as we can determine, never again. The caption, reads, "Faith in action: A Muslim brigade of the Bosnian Army marching in a military parade in Zenica, central Bosnia." Note that the headbands have Arabic writing. Bosnian Muslims speak Serbo-Croatian, as do Serbs and Croats, not Arabic. By 1995 the Bosnian army, so-called, was largely Islamized by the Mujahideen brought in by Iran and Saudi Arabia in a program coordinated by the Pentagon.<br><br>=============================================<br><br>Hazardous operations...<br><br>=============================================<br><br>The Guardian says the Mujahideen shipped into Bosnia "were reserved as shock troops for especially hazardous operations." This is an imprecise formulation. What was the practical function of these Mujahideen?<br><br>A London Telegraph article reported on the takeover of the Bosnian town of Fojnica by the Mujahideen. The Telegraph reports that the Mujahideen trained and led the Bosnian 'government's' infamous Handzar division. The rank and file consisted of Bosnian and Albanian Muslims who were following the tradition of local Muslims who joined the German Nazi Waffen SS during World War II. The Mujahideen trained other Bosnian troops as well (see pictures above). [5]<br><br>[Start excerpt from Telegraph article] [6]<br><br>These are the men of the Handzar division. "We do everything with the knife, and we always fight on the frontline," a Handzar told one UN officer.<br><br>Up to 6000-strong, the Handzar division glories in a fascist culture. They see themselves as the heirs of the SS Handzar division, formed by Bosnian Muslims in 1943 to fight for the Nazis. Their spiritual model was Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who sided with Hitler... [That would be Haj Amin al-Husseini, who created and/or inspired today's Palestinian Arab organizations. - JI]<br><br>They are trained and led by veterans from Afghanistan and Pakistan, say UN sources. The strong presence of native Albanians is an ominous sign. It could mean the seeds of war are spreading south via Kosovo and into Albania, thence to the Albanians of Macedonia.<br><br>Pakistani fundamentalists are known to have had a strong hand in providing arms and a small weapons industry for the Bosnian Muslims.<br><br>Hardline elements of the Bosnian army, like the Handzar, appear to have the backing of an increasingly extreme leadership in Sarajevo...<br><br>[End excerpt from Telegraph article]<br><br>The "hazardous operations" of the mujahideen leading these Handzar troops included terrorist attacks on the non-Muslim population of Bosnia. (And remember, it was *Pentagon intelligence* which, according to the Dutch government report, coordinated these "hazardous operations"! )<br><br>Describing the work of the mujahideen who dominated the town of Fojnica, the Telegraph reports:<br><br>[Start excerpt from Telegraph article]<br><br>"The first political act in this new operation appears to have been the murder of the two monks in the monastery. Last month Brother Nikola Milicevic, 39, and Brother Mato Migic, 56, were surprised by a four-man squad.<br><br>After an argument, Brother Nikola was shot dead on the spot. His colleague was only wounded, but finished off by a shot in the neck. [6]<br><br>[End excerpt from Telegraph article]<br><br>Terrorist attacks such as the execution of the two Christian monks were intended to a) assert mujahideen control and b) exacerbate Christian-Muslim tensions, thus pushing rank-and-file Muslims into the Islamist camp. Thus, the presence of *thousands* of these terrorists had an immense impact on Bosnia, whose total population was at the time only about 4.3 million. [7]<br><br>=============================================<br><br>What to make of Warren Christopher<br><br>=============================================<br><br>Warren Christopher, US Secretary of State in 1993, seems like a mild-mannered man, almost painfully polite. But don't judge a book by its cover.<br><br>At the very time that Christopher's government was coordinating Iranian and Saudi terror in Bosnia, he was engaged in a dramatic battle of words with Iranian leaders over Iranian terrorism!<br><br>What can we say about Mr. Warren Christopher?<br><br>We can say that he was lying to divert the world's attention from mass murder and the destruction of a secular society, sponsored and coordinated by Pentagon intelligence.<br><br>=============================================<br><br>Conclusion<br><br>=============================================<br><br>[Start quote from Los Angeles Times]<br><br>Beginning in 1992, as many as 4,000 volunteers from throughout North Africa, the Middle East and Europe came to Bosnia to fight Serbian and Croatian nationalists on behalf of fellow Muslims. They are known as the moujahedeen. A military analyst called them "pretty good fighters and certainly ruthless." [8]<br><br>[End quote from Los Angeles Times]<br><br>Perhaps one day the US may come into military conflict with Iran. But one *cannot* deduce this merely from the harsh things that the US and Iran say about one another in public. And if the US does ever come into military conflict with Iran, you can be sure of one thing: it will *not* be because Iran supports Islamist terror.<br><br>One last thought. As you will recall, in 1993, the Iranians charged that American public condemnations of Iran were aimed at:<br><br>"...diverting world public opinion from Washington's full-scale support for Israeli-sponsored state terrorism and for terrorist activities against those countries which oppose U.S. domination...''<br><br>But as the Dutch report shows, at the very time that an Iranian official uttered these words, the US was in fact providing full-scale support for *Iranian-sponsored* state terrorist activities against the Bosnian Serbs. And it was the Serbs who opposed U.S. domination.<br><br>And, according to the Dutch report, it was Ukraine, Greece and *Israel* which provided the Bosnian Serbs with arms to resist this attack by *thousands* of mujahideen and the local Islamic fundamentalist troops they led.<br><br>Some of these mujahideen were from the pro-Iranian Hizballah, which specializes in attacking Israel, and some were battle-hardened from fighting the Reds in Afghanistan. Those would be the infamous 'Afghan Arabs'.<br><br>But wait. Don't we have a name for the 'Afghan Arabs' whom Iran and Pakistan and Saudi Arabia were shipping into Bosnia and whose terrorist actions Pentagon intelligence was coordinating?<br><br>Why yes, we do.<br><br>It's Al Qaeda.<br><br> <br>Above, Abu Abdel Aziz, leader of mujahideen terrorist/trainers in Bosnia. The photo appeared in Newsweek, 5 October 1992, in an article entitled, ''Help from the Holy Warriors.'' The London Times wrote that "Aziz claimed to have spent six years fighting in Afghanistan, and had also seen service as a 'holy warrior' in the Philippines, Kashmir and Africa." (9 May 1993). And nine years later, the Gulf News had him leading terrorists who kidnapped European and Asian tourists in Philippines. (5 July 2002 ) <p></p><i></i>
wordspeak
 
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Re: U.S. and Iran secret allies

Postby MASONIC PLOT » Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:41 pm

Iran's President, like Hugo Chavez, is a CIA plant put into place to read his part of the script which makes up the grand hegelian dialect we all see on the news. They need a few radicals to buck the system so people like us think we actually have a voice out there speaking agianst the evil empire and we can all go to bed at night, rest easy and do nothing. I dont buy for a minute that Chavez or any of these other loud mouth heads of state are true adversies of the neo con agenda. They are all in it together, playing their part to lead the world into THE NEW GLOBAL ORDER which will be a one world government ruled with the iron fist of fascism. They control BOTH SIDES of every dialogue, whether it be jews against muslims, israel against lebanon, or terrorists against the world. both sides are controlled by a group of industrialist elite bankers, they fund and arm both sides of every conflict and profit from the death and destruction these events result in. <p></p><i></i>
MASONIC PLOT
 

but back in reality

Postby wordspeak » Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:49 pm

MASONIC PLOT must have taken too much acid or something, to claim that the global elites actually like Chavez. No, they don't like radical populists who give to the poor. They supported a coup to try to overthrow Chavez, and just stole the election from the Left candidate in Mexico, not to mention the entire history of the CIA funding right-wing groups like the Contras to kill left-wing movements like the Sandanistas.<br>But back to the Middle East... Ahmadinejad is *not* a radical who's working for the majority of Iranians. He likes to portray himself as a Chavez type, but, as mentioned in the Amy Goodman/Rand Beers thread, the enemy of my enemy is not always my friend, and in this case he's not at all. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: but back in reality

Postby MASONIC PLOT » Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:55 pm

Typical. Ad homs. Old. Tired and played. <p></p><i></i>
MASONIC PLOT
 

Re: but back in reality

Postby greencrow0 » Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:12 am

Hmmmmmm<br><br><br>Could someone provide a precis of this thread? I'm lost between the spy vs spy and the ad homs.<br><br>I will say one thing though, there were far too many references to MEMRI in the footnotes of the originating quote for my liking. MEMRI is a zionist propaganda tool.<br><br>gc<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: but back in reality

Postby Dreams End » Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:42 am

wordspeak, the guys on the other side of this debate will only accept any evidence about Islam and Zionism from anti-Zionist sites. This makes it challenging as naturally, information not helpful to the anti-Zionists or to radical Islam is typically not featured on such sites. <br><br>Luckily, even that is possible.<br><br>First to Alice.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Really? Anti-Zionism was "used as an excuse for the Holocaust"?<br><br>Your grasp of history is truly astounding.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Luckily, a source much relied on by Alice (but apparently not read by her) is Leni Brenner's "Zionism in the Age of Dictators." Here's Brenner on Hitler's opinion of Zionism and its place in the Nazi worldview. <br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>Lenni Brenner<br><br> <br>Zionism in the Age of the Dictators<br><br> <br>7. Hitler Looks at Zionism<br><br>Hitler’s view of the Jews and the Jewish problem is sharply expressed in Mein Kampf. He goes to great lengths to demonstrate that his Jew-hatred was quite reasonable, that it flowed from experience and the logical inferences to be drawn from clear evidence. He always insisted that his first thoughts towards the Jews were all benign. His father, “the old gentleman”, looked upon anti-Semitism as a left-over religious prejudice and so, we are told, did the enlightened young Adolf. It was only after his mother died, and he moved from provincial Linz to Vienna, that Hitler found occasion to question the glib assumptions of his youth. For there he wandered through the old inner city and encountered a Galician Hasid, “an apparition in a black caftan and black hair locks. Is this a Jew? was my first thought.” But the more he thought about what he had seen, the more his question assumed a new form: “Is this a German?” [1] It is in the context of his earliest ruminations on what was, for him, the central question of existence that he introduced Zionism into his opus.<br><br> <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>And whatever doubts I may still have nourished were finally dispelled by the attitude of a portion of the Jews themselves. Among them there was a great movement, quite extensive in Vienna, which came out sharply in confirmation of the national character of the Jews: this was the Zionists.<br><br> It looked, to be sure, as though only a part of the Jews approved this viewpoint, while the majority condemned and inwardly rejected such a formulation. But... the so-called liberal Jews did not reject the Zionists as non-Jews, but only as Jews with an impractical, perhaps even dangerous, way of publicly avowing their Jewishness. [2]</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>There is no better proof of Zionism’s classic role as an outrider to anti-Semitism than Hitler’s own statement. What more, the reader was to ask, could any reasonable person need? </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->However, before 1914 Hitler had no need to concern himself further with Zionism, as the prospects of a revived Jewish state seemed very remote. It was the Balfour Declaration, Germany’s defeat and the Weimar revolution that made him think again about Zionism. Naturally he rolled all three events together. The treacherous Jews showed their true colours in the way in which they welcomed the Balfour Declaration, and it was the Social Democrats, those servants of the Jews, who brought down the Kaiser; but for them Germany would have won. In 1919 Hitler joined the tiny National Socialists and became their inspired beer-hall rabblerouser, but the dominant ideologist on the finer points of the Jewish question was the Baltic German refugee Alfred Rosenberg, who had developed his theories while still in his native Estonia. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>By 19l9 Rosenberg had already explained Zionism in his book, Die Spur des Juden im Wandel der Zeiten (The Trace of the Jews in the Wanderings of Time) It was just another Jewish hustle; the Zionists only wanted to create a hide-out for the international Jewish conspiracy. Jews were, by their racial nature, organically incapable of building a state of their own, but he felt that Zionist ideology served wonderfully as a justification for depriving Germany’s Jews of their rights and that, perhaps, there was the possibility of future use of the movement for the promotion of Jewish emigration.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> Hitler soon began to touch on these themes in his talks, and on 6 July 1920 he proclaimed that Palestine was the proper place for the Jews and that only there could they hope to get their rights. Articles supporting emigration to Palestine began appearing in the party organ, the Völkischer Beobachter, l920, and periodically party propagandists would return to the point, as did Julius Streicher in a speech given on 20 April 1926 before the Bavarian Landtag. [3] But for Hitler the validity of Zionism only lay in its confirmation that the Jews could never be Germans. In Mein Kampf, he wrote:<br><br> <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> For while the Zionists try to make the rest of the world believe that the national consciousness of the Jew finds its satisfaction in the creation of a Palestinian state, the Jews again slyly dupe the dumb goyim. It doesn’t even enter their heads to build up a Jewish state for the purpose of living there; all they want is a central organisation for their international world swindle, endowed with its own sovereign rights and removed from the intervention of other states: a haven for convicted scoundrels and a university for budding cro<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Jews lacked the essential racial character to build a state of their own. They were essentially leeches, lacking in natural idealism, and they hated work. He explained:<br><br> <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em> For a state formation to have a definite spatial setting always presupposes an idealistic attitude on the part of the state-race, and especially a correct interpretation of the concept of work. In the exact measure in which this attitude is lacking, any attempt at forming, even of preserving, a spatially delimited state fails. [5]</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>In spite of any early musings about Zionism’s efficacy in eventually promoting emigration, the Nazis made no effort to establish any relationship with the local Zionists. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>On the contrary, when the Zionist Congress met in Vienna in 1925, the Nazis were among those who rioted against their presence. </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->[6]<br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/ch07.htm">link</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>[/quote]<br><br>Now, I don't have Brenner's email address, but please find it so you can complain about his grasp of history. Or, read your own links. Or something.<br><br>Moving on. Here's an article from cooperative research. I don't know if they are pro or anti zionist, but I felt there were enough unflattering things about Israel in this piece on the Muslim Brotherhood that it would qualify as not pro-Zionist. I'll await the official imprimatur, but till then, it's an interesting read. At different times, the US has supported MB, as well as Israel and Jordan, though I've heard rumors that the US has some influence with those countries as well. <br><br>What's interesting is the later use of MB allegedly to combat Al-Qaida, which, of course, sprang from MB. It's another long article. And it's in summary form. Sources are listed but there aren't links. Feel free to disregard Washington Post articles. I often do.<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br><br>Profile: Muslim Brotherhood<br>Positions that Muslim Brotherhood has held:<br><br>Muslim Brotherhood actively participated in the following events:<br>1954 - 1970: Nasser makes enemies of both the CIA and the Muslim Brotherhood<br><br>In 1954 Egyptian President Gamal Abddul Nasser’s nationalist policies in Egypt come to be viewed as completely unacceptable by Britain and the US. MI6 and the CIA jointly hatch plans for his assassination. According to Miles Copeland, a CIA operative based in Egypt, the opposition to Nasser is driven by the commercial community—the oil companies and the banks. At the same time, the Muslim Brotherhood’s resentment of Nasser’s secular government also comes to a head. In one incident, Islamist militants attack pro-Nasser students at Cairo University. Following an attempt on his own life by the Brotherhood, Nasser responds immediately by outlawing the group, which he denounces as a tool of Britain. The following years see a long and complex struggle pitting Nasser against the Muslim Brotherhood, the US and Britain. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>The CIA funnels support to the group beccause of “the Brotherhood’s commendable capability to overthrow Nasser.” [Dreyfuss, 2005, pp. 101-108; Baer, 2003, pp. 99] The Islamist regime in Saudi Arabia becomes an ally of the United States in the conflict with Nasser. They offer financial backing and sanctuary to Muslim Brotherhood militants during Nasser’s crackdown. [Dreyfuss, 2005, pp. 90-91, 126-131, 15<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 0] --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/alien.gif ALT="0]"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br><br>1973-1982: Israel and Jordan Support Muslim Brotherhood Terrorism Against Syria (this is harmful to the case for Israel...but it does make Alice's position a little...awkward...and no, I do not condone Israel's funding of MB to blow shit up in Syria.)<br><br>In 1973 Hafez Assad approves a new, secular constitution for Syria, and declares that the country is a “democratic, popular, socialist state,” creating a backlash of violent Islamist demonstrations. Beginning in 1976, the Muslim Brotherhood carries out hundreds of attacks in Syria in an attempt to bring down the secular government. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Israel and Jordan provide generous support for these operations, for example establishing training camps for the Muslim Brotherhood in Lebanon and Jordan near the Syrian border.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> In one incident in 1979, a gang of Brotherhood militants murders 83 military cadets by locking them inside a buliding and attacking it with automatic weapons and firebombs. Newsweek reports in 1981 that “over the past five years the Brotherhood has assassinated hundreds of Alawite members of Assad’s ruling Baath Parthy along with their relatives, Assad’s personal doctor, and a number of Soviet advisers.” In 1982, the Syrian army brutally suppresses the Muslim Brotherhood and their supporters, massacring thousands in the city of Hama, a strong center of support for the Brotherhood. This puts an end to the wave of violence. [Dreyfuss, 2005, pp. 199-205]<br><br>December 1982: Muslim Brotherhood Project to Infiltrate and Defeat the West<br><br>Youssef Nada. [Source: Publicity photo]Youssef Nada.<br>In November 2001, Swiss investigators will search the home of Youssef Nada, the leader of Al Taqwa Bank, a Swiss bank that had just been shut down by the US and the UN for alleged ties to al-Qaeda, Hamas, and other radical militant groups (see November 7, 2001). Nada and other Al Taqwa directors are prominent members of the Muslim Brotherhood. Newsweek will say, “The Brotherhood, founded in Egypt in 1928 as a religious and quasi-political counterweight to the corrupt and increasingly decadent royalist and colonial governments dominating the Islamic world, always has had two faces: one a peaceful public, proselytizing and social-welfare oriented wing; the other a clandestine, paramilitary wing. ... Intelligence and law-enforcement officials say that while some branches and elements of the Brotherhood, such as the offshoots now operating in Egypt and Syria, have pledged to work for their goal of a worldwide Islamic caliphate using peaceful means and electoral politics, the Brotherhood has also spun off many—if not most—of the more violent local and international groups devoted to the cause of Islamic holy war.” Such offshoots will include al-Qaeda and Hamas. [Newsweek, 12/24/2004] Swiss investigators discover a 14-page document from December 1982 entitled “The Project.” Nada claims not to know who wrote the document or how he came to have it, and he says he disagrees with most of the contents. The document details a strategic plan whose ultimate goal is “the establishment of the reign of God over the entire world.” The document begins, “This report presents a global vision of an international strategy of Islamic policy.” It recommends to “study of the centers of power locally and worldwide, and the possibilities of placing them under influence,” to contact and support new holy war movements anywhere in the world, to support holy war in Palestine, and “nurtur[e] the sentiment of rancor with regard to Jews.” Swiss investigators who analyze the document will later write that the strategy aims to achieve “a growing influence over the Muslim world. It is pointed out that the [Muslim Brotherhood] doesn’t have to act in the name of the Brotherhood, but can infiltrate existing entities. They can thus avoid being located and neutralized.” The document also advocates creating a network of religious, educational, and charitable institutions in Europe and the US to increase influence there. [Le Temps (Geneva), 10/6/2005; Unknown, 12/1982]<br><br>1988: Al Taqwa Bank Founded; Tied to Nazi Supporters<br><br>Leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood found the Al Taqwa Bank. This bank will later be accused of being the largest financial supporter of al-Qaeda, Hamas, the GIA in Algeria, and other organizations officially designated by the US as groups that sponsor terrorism. For instance, the Treasury Department will later claim that $60 million in funding for Hamas will pass through Al Taqwa in 1997. The bank is mostly based on both sides of the border between Swizterland and Italy, but important branches are established in Liechtenstein and the Bahamas as offshore tax havens. [US Department of the Treasury, 8/29/2002] Newsweek will explain, “Al Taqwa, which means ‘Fear of God,’ was launched ... by leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood, a secret society devoted to the creation of a worldwide Islamic government. The Brotherhood wanted to create a financial institution in which devout Muslims could invest their money. It would operate under strict Islamic law, which prohibits banks from charging interest. But investigators believe the convoluted structure of Al Taqwa made it easy to use as a money-laundering mechanism. ... The [central] operation consisted of four men working at computers in a small apartment in Lugano, Switzerland. Lugano, which sits near the Italian border, is a kind of Alpine Tijuana, well known as a haven for tax evaders and money launderers.” [Newsweek, 3/18/2002] Reportedly, in 1995, Italian investigators will tell a Swiss prosecutor that Al Taqwa and related entities comprise “the most important financial structure of the Muslim Brotherhood and Islamic terrorist organizations.” [Salon, 3/15/2002] Six members of the bin Laden family are among the original contributors to the Bahamas branch. [Wall Street Journal, 12/17/2001] A number of the bank’s leaders have ties to Nazism or fascism. For instance, when board chairman Youssef Nada was a young man, he allegedly worked with both the armed branch of the Muslim Brotherhood and Nazi Germany military intelligence. Ahmad Huber, a Swiss convert to Islam previously known as Albert Huber, is both a director of the bank and an open neo-Nazi. He proudly displays portraits of Adolf Hitler and Osama bin Laden next to each other in his house. [Asia Times, 11/8/2002; Washington Post, 4/29/2002] According to a reporter who will interview him in 1995, Huber’s office is adorned with portraits of Hitler, Nazi leader Heinrich Himmler, and Islamic militants. [Boston Herald, 11/8/2001] Huber will spend decades attempting to forge links between the neo-Nazi movement and the radical Muslim movement, speaking to and networking with both groups. He will be quoted around 2001 saying that the al-Qaeda leaders he met in January 2001 are “very discreet, well-educated, and very intelligent people.”(see Late January 2001). [Financial Times, 11/8/2001; Playboy, 2/1/2002] The founder of Al Taqwa appears to be Francois Genoud, who will die in 1996. Genoud is a Swiss lawyer who funded the Nazis and served as a Nazi agent during World War II. After the war, he funded the secret Odessa organization, which enabled many notorious Nazi fugitives to escape to safe havens in South America and elsewhere. Authorities believe that Genoud uses Al Taqwa to fund international militants like Carlos the Jackal and bin Laden. He also paid for the legal expenses of ex-Nazis such as Klaus Barbie and Adolf Eichmann. Many Muslim radicals and neo-Nazis share a strong hatred for Jews and the United States. [San Francisco Chronicle, 3/12/2002] Al Taqwa will be shut down shortly after 9/11 for its support of al-Qaeda, Hamas, and other groups officially designated as terrorist organizations (see November 7, 2001).<br><br><br>September 11, 2004: Some US Officials Recommend Working With Muslim Brotherhood<br><br>Muslim Brotherhood logo. [Source: Muslim Brotherhood]Muslim Brotherhood logo.<br>The Washington Post reports that “Some federal agents worry that the Muslim Brotherhood has dangerous links to terrorism. But some US diplomats and intelligence officials believe its influence offers an opportunity for political engagement that could help isolate violent jihadists.” The Post describes the Brotherhood as “a sprawling and secretive society with followers in more than 70 countries. ... In some nations—Egypt, Algeria, Syria, Sudan—the Brotherhood has fomented Islamic revolution. In the Palestinian territories, the Brotherhood created ... Hamas, which has become known for its suicide bombings of Israelis. Yet it is also a sophisticated and diverse organization that appeals to many Muslims worldwide and sometimes advocates peaceful persuasion, not violent revolt. Some of its supporters went on to help found al-Qaeda, while others launched one of the largest college student groups in the United States.” A top FBI counterterrorism official says, “We see some sort of nexus, direct or indirect, to the Brotherhood, in ongoing [terrorism] cases.” A number of people connected to al-Qaeda, such as Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Sheikh Omar Abdul-Rahman, and Mohamed Atta, were members of the Brotherhood. Reportedly, “pockets” of US the government “have quietly advocated that the government reach out to the Brotherhood and its allies.” For instance, Reuel Gerecht, a former CIA officer working with the neoconservative American Enterprise Institute, says, “Bin Laden-ism can only be gutted by fundamentalists.” But former CIA officer Graham Fuller says, “At high levels of the government, there’s no desire to go in the direction of dialogue. It’s still seen as fairly way out.” [Washington Post, 9/11/2004] In 2005, it will be reported that some Muslim Brotherhood leaders created a plan in 1982 to infiltrate the West with the ultimate goal of subverting it and conquering it (see December 1982).<br><br>March 2005: Israel Honors People Involved in Lavon Affair<br><br>Israel officially honors the nine Egyptian Jews who were involved in the “Lavon Affair” bombings in Egypt (see July 1954) Israeli President Moshe Katzav, presiding over the 2005 ceremony honoring the bombers in Jerusalem, says that the Israeli government has “decided now to express our respect for these heroes.” In 1954, in an effort to damage Egypt’s relationship with the West, Israeli agents bombed sites frequented by foreigners in Cairo and Alexandria with hopes that the attacks would be blamed on the Muslim Brotherhood. But the operation unraveled when one of the bombs being planted went off prematurely. [Reuters, 3/30/2005]<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?id=1521846767-1646">link</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Personally, there are things I don't like about this article. The Swiss documents sound a little suspect to me...but it's the first one I grabbed and it had anti-Israel stuff in it which I thought might make some readers happy. I think the bank stuff is the most worthy of further research. A worldwide plan for Islam to infiltrate the world...that sounds a bit "protocols" to me. And there's not much info about pre-1954....<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: but back in reality

Postby AlicetheCurious » Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:52 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Intelligence and law-enforcement officials say that while some branches and elements of the Brotherhood, such as the offshoots now operating in Egypt and Syria, have pledged to work for their goal of a worldwide Islamic caliphate <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>using peaceful means and electoral politics</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, the Brotherhood has also <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>spun off</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> many—if not most—of the more violent local and international groups devoted to the cause of Islamic holy war.” Such offshoots will include <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>al-Qaeda and Hamas</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. [Newsweek, 12/24/2004] <br><br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>The Emperor's New Clothes is chock-full of misinformation, outright lies, and hateful Zionist propaganda, as is MEMRI. Both are notorious for twisting facts and spreading nasty, baseless accusations for the purpose of hate-mongering. <br><br>Now, re: the excerpts above.<br><br>Wow, "al-Qaeda" and "Hamas" are lumped together, despite the fact that Hamas is a resistance organization made up of incredibly brave, indigenous, local political and guerilla militants, that is fighting a brutal, illegal foreign occupation. <br><br>Quite a contrast to "al-Qaeda", which is a fictional organization financed by the CIA and their lackeys the Saudi government and their franchise in Pakistan, the ISI, that has recruited disgruntled or naive patsies from all over the world and set them up as bogeymen to achieve neo-con world domination through a phony "war on terror".<br><br>But, they're both "Muslim" orgs, right? So, if the US and Israel say they are the same, then they must be the same.<br><!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :p --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Swiss investigators discover a 14-page document from December 1982 entitled “<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>The Project</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->.” Nada <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>claims not to know who wrote the document or how he came to have it, and he says he disagrees with most of the contents</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. The document details a strategic plan whose ultimate goal is “the establishment of the reign of God over the entire world.” <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>The document begins, “This report presents a global vision of an international strategy of Islamic policy.” It recommends to “study of the centers of power locally and worldwide, and the possibilities of placing them under influence,” to contact and support new holy war movements anywhere in the world, to support holy war in Palestine, and “nurtur[e] the sentiment of rancor with regard to Jews.” Swiss investigators who analyze the document will later write that the strategy aims to achieve “a growing influence over the Muslim world. It is pointed out that the [Muslim Brotherhood] doesn’t have to act in the name of the Brotherhood, but can infiltrate existing entities. They can thus avoid being located and neutralized.” The document also advocates creating a network of religious, educational, and charitable institutions in Europe and the US to increase influence there. [Le Temps (Geneva), 10/6/2005; Unknown, 12/1982]</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>This document, "The Project", hmmmm, sounds like the same people who named it were the ones who named "al-Qaeda" ("The Base"). A remarkable lack of imagination there, reminds me of the peculiarly American practice of naming a candy store, say, "The Candy Store", or a grocery, "The Food Mart".<br><br>But beyond that, this mysterious document outlining a sinister Muslim plot to take over the world, fortuitously "discovered" in the home of a man who has PATSIE written all over him -- he probably actually believed that his mysterious American benefactors were inspired by God to support him, until they turned on him and claimed to "discover" evidence that he was involved in a global conspiracy.<br><br>I got a nagging feeling in the back of my mind, about this weird document that suddenly turns up, outlining a global conspiracy of Muslim fanatics yet, in this secret document, curiously not mentioning the crucial dependence of this conspiracy on US and other Western intelligence agencies...<br><br>And then "snap!", I remembered where I had heard of such a document before, almost identical, except for a few minor differences: The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.<br><br>Plots to take over the world, "confession" videos, incriminating voice tapes and incriminating web-sites...all popping up at just the right times, to corroborate US/Zionist propaganda. Fascinating.<br><br>It's such a tried and true method, why not keep using it?<br><br>Especially when you can count on the considerable global network of Zionist and American propagandists to suppress the obvious questions and trumpet the disinformation as fact.<br><br>As for the many Arabs and Muslims who see no resemblance between their own aspirations and struggles, and those of the made-up bogeymen, well, who's gonna listen to a bunch of Islamofascists who represent a knife poised at the throat of Western Civilisation, right? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: but back in reality

Postby AlicetheCurious » Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:16 am

DE, I just noticed that you picked up the same whiff of "Protocols" that I did. Sorry, but your posts are so dang long that my scroll finger has developed a mind of its own. <br><br>BTW, just because something is "anti-Zionist" doesn't mean I 'like' it; you're underestimating my intelligence. How patronizing. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: but back in reality

Postby wordspeak » Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:35 pm

Alicethecurious- you attack the Emperor's Clothes web site, but you don't give any substance. Did you read the articles?<br>That was some good information- the tip of the iceberg- posted from Cooperative Research... are you denying the whole history of U.S. funding and training of Islamic militants? Do you believe it was only done "to defeat the Soviets" and then ties were severed? How many examples do you need? And if you're not denying it then what are you saying here?<br><br>The CIA started the madrassas in Pakistan, and U.S. taxpayers payed for Islamic fundamentalist textbooks to be sent to Afghanistan. It shouldn't be a surprise that they support the fundamentalist movement; fundamentalist religion is key to controlling people. And Islam is the world's biggest religion. <br><br>You do realize that the U.S. funds Egypt nearly as much as it funds Israel? Not to mention the U.S.'s relationship with Saudi Arabia.<br>You have an oversimplifies perception of what's going on in the Middle East, and it's the standard one in the American Left today, and that's not by mistake. It's very popular today to believe, especially in the 'net underground, to believe that Israel controls U.S. policy, when obviously it's the other way around. <br>I hear American Leftists all the time apologizing for terrorism or calling it "resistance," as you call Hamas. It's the *last* thing we should be doing is identifying with terrorists. <br><br>On Zionism- I'm certainly not a Zionist, and I don't excuse Israel's military brutality. There's a fascist element in Israel that works with the U.S., obviously- is part of the NWO. <br>However, the Jews don't run the world. In fact, Jews have historically been largely socialists, and this is why there's been a war on them. <br><br>The fundamentalist terrorism movement is not "made up"; it's real. You have people willing to be the patsies for 9/11; this is because they come from this "movement." It's not a good, humanistic movement- it's supported by the CIA, has been used to destroy genuine Left/progressive movements, and always gives them a bad name, if people identify Hamas with "resistance." <br>There were even plenty of anti-capitalist types who cheered on 9/11, as an act of mass "resistance" against capitalism. But that's not what 9/11 was, was it? No, terrorism in fact gives fodder to the fascists. That's why the fascists executed 9/11. It's a psychological operation, in which well-intentioned people are led to support a foul, anti-humanist movement as the supposed enemy of the west, but in fact the "west" is supporting, funding, and utlilizing it. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: but back in reality

Postby Dreams End » Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:06 pm

No time now, but I think if you read carefully you'll see little bits of agreement in these posts between Alice and me and wordspeak.<br><br>For example, the idea that Al Qaida is CIA. I doubt it's direct control but I think we can all agree about that. This tells us that we agree that at least on some occasions, the CIA has funded and supported (I don't know about "created") movements which are Islamic fundamentalist in nature. <br><br>I think we also agree that this is done to foment the sorts of acts that would allow our government to crack down and go bomb countries at will (hence my own suspicion of that magic "project" document) I wonder if Alice would also agree with us that these groups are used to destabilize countries and as a mercenary armed force (as in Kosovo and Bosnia, armed by Iran)?<br><br>I also wonder about how Iran's cooperation with the US in places like Bosnia affects Alice's assessment. TENC has this whole deal about how the US and Iran are really working together. This is not Zionist propaganda as I haven't seen it anywhere else (the analysis, I mean, not the info which is easily accessible), Zionist or no. Mainstream Zionist thought is that Iran is evil and the US should and does oppose Iran. It goes against, in fact, everything that the neocons (as in "Zionist shills") are telling us. They tell us we must attack Iran...Jared Israel says we are working with Iran. WE understand how both things can happen at the same time, but I don't see that point of view very much. so I wouldn't call that Zionist disinfo. <br><br>And Alice, I dont' assume you agree with everything anti-Zionist but you always argue that any information from a pro-Zionist website, no matter how well sourced, cannot be trusted. So I was just trying to find some sources of information you might not reject a priori. That's why there's stuff in that article I would not agree with. Hence, when you said that my assertion that Hitler used Zionism as a justification for the Holocaust (i.e. proof of their evil schemes) and you said I had not grasp of history, I used the Brenner material, since he was a source recommended by you. I didn't post it because I agree with his rather alarming assertion that <br><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>There is no better proof of Zionism’s classic role as an outrider to anti-Semitism than Hitler’s own statement. What more, the reader was to ask, could any reasonable person need? <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I had to look up the word "outrider" to see if he was saying what I thought he was saying...<br><br>Sadly, he was.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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While we wait politely for Alice to respond...

Postby erosoplier » Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:44 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion (to which few members of other civilisations were converted) but rather by its superiority in applying organised violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do.<br><br>Samuel Huntington<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm10.showMessage?topicID=6487.topic">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...6487.topic</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: While we wait politely for Alice to respond...

Postby AlicetheCurious » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:09 pm

DE, gee, thanks for letting me actually have dinner with my family, help my kids do homework, put them to bed, make their school lunches, hang out with my hubby for a couple of hours and then actually get some sleep... What do you think I am, a disembodied entity attached to my computer?<br><br>By the way, I prefer to get weekends off, too.<br><br>So. wordspeak said:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>...are you denying the whole history of U.S. funding and training of Islamic militants? Do you believe it was only done "to defeat the Soviets" and then ties were severed? How many examples do you need? And if you're not denying it then what are you saying here?<br><br>The CIA started the madrassas in Pakistan, and U.S. taxpayers payed for Islamic fundamentalist textbooks to be sent to Afghanistan. It shouldn't be a surprise that they support the fundamentalist movement; fundamentalist religion is key to controlling people. And Islam is the world's biggest religion. <br><br>You do realize that the U.S. funds Egypt nearly as much as it funds Israel? Not to mention the U.S.'s relationship with Saudi Arabia.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I agree with what you say, there. I think the evidence is pretty conclusive.<br><br>Where you and I part ways is with the rest of your post:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You have an oversimplifies perception of what's going on in the Middle East, and it's the standard one in the American Left today, and that's not by mistake. It's very popular today to believe, especially in the 'net underground, to believe that Israel controls U.S. policy, when obviously it's the other way around.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>I would say that YOU have an absurdly simplistic perception of the "what's going on in the Middle East". Just because the US pours billions of dollars into repressive puppet regimes such as those who manage Saudi Arabia and Egypt on behalf of their American bosses, does not put them on a par with Israel. <br><br>Both the Egyptian and Saudi governments are kept in place to recycle US taxpayer 'aid' money by using it to buy useless and enormously overpriced weapons from American arms manufacturers, which are, of course, to be used against other Arab countries that step out of the US line, never, ever against Israel. This is the case, even when Israel shoots dead Egyptian troops doing their regular shifts on their side of the border and then claims that it was an "accident" against all the evidence. And then does it again.<br><br>Or when the Israeli army crossed into Egypt to kidnap some Egyptian teenagers who had gotten lost and wandered too close to the border, so that they could be exchanged for convicted Israeli spy Azzam Azzam. <br><br>Unlike Israel, who destroyed Lebanon and massacred thousands of Lebanese and Palestinian civilians in "retaliation" for the kidnapping of 3 Israeli soldiers, our "government" meekly accepted the Israeli apology for the dead Egyptian soldiers, and promptly handed over the spy in exchange for the Egyptian hostages.<br><br>Our 'governments' are also used by the US as 'trustees', keeping their people poor, ignorant and afraid, so that corporate interests can pursue their neo-con agenda by sucking up our national resources, creating a corporate heaven for multinational corporations in which a country's wealth is used to effectively subsidize their operations, they pay little or no taxes, they pollute at will, have access to a steady supply of cheap, oppressed labour, plus they have a captive market.<br><br>Another distinguishing characteristic of America's "allies" in the Middle East, is the signing of economic agreements that benefit Israel, while disregarding the almost unanimous public opposition to such deals. These include the QIZ agreement for textile-manufacturing maquiladora-style industrial zones that were set up in Egypt, taking advantage of cheap, non-union labour for government-connected Egyptian and Israeli businessmen, and at the same time forcing Egyptians to import garment components from Israel:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Since the QIZ agreement came into force there has been sharp increase in israeli exports to Egypt mainly Israeli inputs to the Egyptian textile industry. In 2004 israeli exports totaled US$29 millions and in 2005 exports was up 300% to US$93 million.<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.port2port.com/Index.asp?ArticleID=1055&CategoryID=46&Year=2006&Month=9&Page=1">www.port2port.com/Index.a...amp;Page=1</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Of course, US$93 million is chump change to Israel -- much more important is the creeping control of one of Egypt's most important industries: the textile industry.<br><br>Egypt has also signed an outrageous deal to export its strategic gas resources to Israel at a fixed price for the next 20 years, via underwater pipelines built by an Egyptian-Israeli consortium, despite the furious opposition of most Egyptians:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>In a statement issued Thursday, Egyptian judges censured "the barbaric Israeli attacks on the Palestinian and Lebanese people." They also warned of American attempts "to rearrange the Middle East, based on the 'Greater Middle East' plan, via Israeli pride and American hegemony, in whose eyes the lives of hundreds of Arab children are not worth the wounds of one Israeli child."<br>...<br>The Egyptian judges called upon judges from around the world to do their duty and aid in imposing values of justice and equality between human beings.<br><br>The Egyptian union of professional associations, boasting seven million members, announced that they intend to hold a general, hour-long strike on Sunday, including all members of the union with the exception of emergency medical workers.<br><br>Granted, it will not be the first public condemnation of Israel in Egypt. The London-based al-Sharq al Wasat newspaper, reported that Egyptian lawyers conducted a general strike on Thursday against IDF operations in Lebanon.<br><br>....<br><br>The Egyptian reform movement, 'Kafia' (<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>actually, it's Kefaya! which means "Enough!</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>- Alice</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->), is also pressing on the Egyptian government. In the last presidential and parliament elections, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>the movement protested against the continued leadership of Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>This time, they focused their criticism on Israel and demanded a cessation of gas exports from Egypt to that country.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> Newspapers also reported that popular anti-Israeli sentiment was growing, including among organizations, political movements and factions of the population that had previously not actively expressed such views.<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3286242,00.html">www.ynetnews.com/articles...42,00.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>I could go on and on about the many ways that Israel has pushed its tentacles into the Egyptian economy under the cover of the US "friendship" and American "investment", or using corrupt local front-men with friends in high places -- in agriculture, the cement and steel industries, etc., etc.<br><br>I'll be happy to provide more details about that later, if you're interested. <br><br>But how does all this relate to 'al-Qaeda' and "Islamo-fascist" movements?<br><br>Easy. All this injustice and oppression breed opposition. The Kefaya movement is a perfect example of a huge grassroots movement with enormous legitimacy and respect 'in the street'.<br><br>It is a secular coalition which demands that the government repeal the 'Emergency Law" that has nullified human rights in Egypt since Sadat was assassinated in 1981. It also demands that Egypt become a democracy, through constitutional reform, the establishment of a free, independent press, an independent judiciary, and the removal of all obstacles to forming political parties.<br><br>It's a liberal, progressive movement that prominently includes Christians, Muslims, Leftists, women's rights activists, human rights activists, professionals, workers, academics, journalists, you name it, all united in their demand for freedom.<br><br>It opposes the neo-con agenda in Egypt, the flagrant, systemic corruption of the ruling class, the American and Israeli occupations of Arab lands and all human rights abuses.<br><br>It's a huge movement, as I've said. Do you hear about it?<br><br>Funny, they're in the news here all the time, especially in the opposition papers, they've even been mentioned in Mockingbird-infested neo-con rags like the Daily Star (<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.dailystaregypt.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=2384),">www.dailystaregypt.com/ar...eID=2384),</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> since theirs are the biggest and best-organized demonstrations, and also since they're often getting beaten, getting arrested, some women have been sexually assaulted, and they're often blocking traffic downtown.<br><br>These are pretty brave, articulate, educated people, who speak out with a strong voice, against some pretty bad things.<br><br>Do you get to see them on your news? No? Do you wonder why not? And why the only Egyptian opposition movement you hear about, is the Muslim Brotherhood?<br><br>The Kefaya! movement is not a political party, but parties with similar platforms are constrained by rules and regulations that effectively paralyse those that are not banned, while the 'outlawed' Muslim Brotherhood is allowed to own businesses, raise money, meet and even demonstrate.<br><br>The Muslim Brothers are not allowed to run for office, so their members simply run as independents, using the slogan, "Islam is the answer", which identifies them as Muslim Brotherhood, while the government turns a blind eye.<br><br>On the other hand, the government regularly engages in "sweeps", picking up known or suspected Muslim Brothers, dragging them off to prison and torturing them, often on no or trumped-up charges. <br><br>Many of those unfortunates probably had only the vaguest political awareness, figuring that "finding God" sounds like a good solution to the dire political, economic and social problems that threaten to engulf their society. They attend a couple of meetings, they read a couple of books, maybe do some volunteer charity work.<br><br>In many cases, unsurprisingly, they leave the torture chambers with rather more fixed ideas about who their enemy is and what they're willing to do about it.<br><br>These are the ripe fruit, ready for picking by anyone who promises them the opportunity to fight back against their much more powerful enemy, to get revenge. <br><br>However, even so, it's been pretty hard to find real, local Muslims to form a realistic terrorist group. The only one that came close was the Jamaa al-Islameyya, a radical splinter which supposedly broke off from the Muslim Brotherhood because the Muslim Brotherhood denounced violence.<br><br>A few years of terrible violence later, the group's members were all caught and arrested. While they were in prison, a "dream team" of Islamic scholars was formed, and they went around to the prisons to visit these people, hold free and open discussions with them, and persuade them, using scholarly texts and the Quran, that their actions were contrary to Islam. <br><br>Amazingly, the project was a resounding success, and the members of Jamaa al-Islameyya not only renounced all terrorism, but several of their members wrote books explaining how they had been misled by misinformation disseminated by unscrupulous or ignorant agitators, and outlining the arguments and facts that had persuaded them that such violence is wrong and contrary to Islamic principles.<br><br>Interestingly, a so-called "al-Qaeda" website subsequently announced that the Jamaa al-Islameyya is the al-Qaeda affiliate in Egypt, which prompted a furious denial by the Jamaa.<br><br>Despite the government's initially skeptical reaction to the Jamaa's renunciation of violence, it was eventually convinced, and ordered the release a few years ago, of the 300 Jamaa prisoners, who have lived the quiet lives of model citizens, ever since.<br><br>"Al-Qaeda's" recruiters haven't been having much luck replacing the terrorist Jamaa since the whole thing fizzled out, particularly in Egyptian towns and cities, but you can't accuse them of not trying.<br><br>Since then, we've had two major terrorist attacks in Egypt, oddly enough both in tourist resorts bordering Israel, and both demolishing Egyptian luxury hotels, on two of the most important patriotic holidays: July 23, National Day, and October 6, anniversary of the Egyptian "victory" in the 1973 War with Israel. Neither date had any particular religious significance, but they did have a strong patriotic meaning. Nor was a credible motive ever found. Egyptian security arrested thousands of Bedouins from the area, but nobody could explain why they would target the tourism industry that is their only livelihood...<br><br>OK, I'll spell it out: I suspect that the Israelis were behind it. They had the motive (making Egypt look like a hotbed of violent Islamic terrorism), the opportunity (both resort towns are easily accessible to Israeli operatives) and the means (both attacks used powerful, sophisticated explosives not readily available to your run-of-the-mill terrorist).<br><br>I could be wrong, but that's where I believe the evidence points.<br><br>The locally-recruited patsies rarely get to actually carry out the operations, which are usually entrusted to more professional and competent hands, hence the striking contrast between the patsies' level of skill and resources, and the highly sophisticated explosives, piloting skills, etc., that are evident in the various terrorist attacks attributed to "al-Qaeda". <br><br>But if you don't look too closely, and you have a compliant press, these attacks help to put a face on the "Islamo-fascist" menace that threatens world civilisation and justifies the war crimes committed against helpless populations.<br><br>In Europe, it seems that a disproportionate number of these patsies are "converts", or not particularly religious young men, who suddenly emerge full-blown as hardened fanatic terrorists, with all the skills and resources needed to scare the bejeesus out of decent, freedom-loving Americans and Europeans.<br><br>The fact that so many of the "al-Qaeda" recruiters who effected such miraculous transformations, can be linked to Israeli and Western intelligence agencies, spearheaded by the CIA and MI5/6, but also German and French, goes a long way towards explaining how they were able to recruit, indoctrinate, train and equip terrorists, then avoid capture and imprisonment themselves.<br> <br>Anyway, I know this is getting too long, so I'll try to wrap up here. Your questions, wordspeak, imply that you believe that these "al-Qaeda" cells are organized and run by Western intelligence agencies. I agree with you on that.<br><br>Al-Qaeda is useful on many levels to its handlers: first, it acts as a red flag to the bull of public opinion, distracting public attention from the evil deeds of the neocons and their Israeli friends, who justify their self-serving behaviour as a struggle against international terrorism. <br><br>These people are not "fighting terrorism", they are killing thousands of innocent people, dismantling the structures of democracy and international law, stealing the land, water and petroleum resources of other nations, imposing puppet regimes to impose the neocon capitalist agenda and making a shit-load of money squeezed from the blood of their victims.<br><br>Second, "al-Qaeda" can be the hidden hand that spreads confusion and discord between Shia and Sunni Muslims, and between Muslims and Christians.<br><br>Third, "al-Qaeda" can act as a cover for the assassinations of political oponents and other inconvenient people, including scholars, journalists, politicians, military leaders, and their supporters whose credibility and information pose a threat to neocon/Israeli plans.<br><br>I could probably think of a few more reasons why "al-Qaeda" is so useful to Israel and the neocons, and also to some Western intelligence agencies, but I'll let you think of some.<br><br>In sum, wordspeak, are you suggesting that we fall for it?<br><br>That where "al-Qaeda" rears its ugly head, we should bomb where the neocons tell us to, and let God sort out the broken bodies?<br><br>Are you suggesting that where "al-Qaeda" operates, "we" should commit massacres and war crimes?<br><br>Are you proposing that if someone is accused of membership in "al-Qaeda", they should be deprived of their human and legal rights?<br><br>Are you saying that we should not demand justice for the Palestinian and Iraqi and Lebanese people, for the Muslim hostages in secret American prisons, for the hundreds of thousands of dead Arab children, because international law and moral limitations only apply to "us" and "our" children?<br><br>And finally, are all Muslims "Islamo-fascists" to you? Are all Arab nationalists "Islamo-fascists"? Are all people demanding justice, freedom and self-determination "Islamo-fascists" to you?<br><br>The links are active in the original web-page:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>New Al Qaeda Video More CIA Black Op Propaganda</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>Pathetic pretence kept up that "Al Qaeda" is still or ever was a real organized terror outfit and not the creation of deep intelligence.<br><br>Steve Watson / Infowars | September 4 2006<br><br>The latest cobbled together trash home video to be released and accredited to "Al Qaeda" is yet another piece of scripted propaganda that portrays a desperate attempt to give the impression that the group operates as a cohesive unit.<br><br>It is becoming tiresome to have to address these endless videos which are released whenever the Administration is feeling the pressure, something that now seems to be a permanent feature of this government.<br><br>As Kurt Nimmo so eloquently puts it, this time the tape features “Azzam the American,” aka Adam Yahiye Gadahn, born Adam Pearlman, and also going by the names Abu Suhayb al-Amriki, Abu Suhayb, and Yihya Majadin Adams (a score card is required to keep track).<br><br>“Californian Adam Gadahn, wearing a white robe and turban, introduces the message by calling on Westerners to convert,” reports CNN. “We invite all Americans and believers to Islam, whatever their role and status in Bush and Blair’s world order,” Gahahn declares. “Decide today, because today could be your last day.”<br><br>Oh the drama. FEEEEL the force of the Dark Side, you know you want to give in to it, come over to us while you still have a chance.<br><br>Gadahn is the perfect turncoat, the proof positive that we are engaged in a global turf war with the terrorists for hearts and minds.<br><br>Gadahn, who disappeared from California seven years ago, first appeared unmasked on an al Qaeda tape made public in July of this year. His past is however very sketchy and more than a little suspicious. Could he be an invention of Western intelligence?<br><br>Adam Gadahn is in fact the grandson of the late Carl K. Pearlman; a prominent Jewish urologist in Orange County. Carl Pearlman was also a member of the board of directors of the Anti-Defamation League, which was caught spying on Americans for Israel in 1993. This information today also appeared in the Jerusalem post.<br><br>The Washington Post has previously reported that “While living with his grandparents in suburban Santa Ana, he made his first trip to the nearby mosque in 1995. He introduced himself as Yahya - the Arabic name for John the Baptist, revered as a great prophet in Islam.”<br><br>So what is the grandson of a prominent Jew who lives with his grandfather doing attending a mosque? Furthermore given this context it seems suspicious that he would then assault members of the Mosque and turn to radical Islam, which is what he then did just before disappearing off to Pakistan.<br><br>Gadahn / Azzam/ Pearlman is also known for an internet essay “Becoming Muslim”, which, as Los Angeles City Beat Journalist Annette Stark has pointed out, is itself very suspicious:<br><br>“On the left, conspiracy theorists – no less energized than their right-wing counterparts – got busy, too. They thought it strange, they said, as if the government stitched the story together from scratch. Some kid who never before posted to the Internet drops a deeply personal revelation onto a USC website, a diatribe that is chock full of anti-government, anti-Christian sentiments, and then pretty much disappears from cyberspace."<br><br>It is basically written from a Zionist perspective and not the perspective of the American government in 1995. Remember there was no war on "Islamic Fascism" in 1995.<br><br>Another key indicator that Gadahn / Azzam/ Pearlman is in the employ of Western Intelligence comes from a report out of the Orange County Weekly which details how a man named Khalil Deek, a computer expert who attended the same Mosque as Gadahn and later became a "top Al Qaeda deputy", was continually protected by US authorities and allowed to go free on several occasions. Khalil Deek and Adam Gadahn were accused of organizing a terrorist cell in Anaheim in the mid to late nineties.<br><br>In the past we have highlighted numerous cases of intrinsic links between the major intelligence agencies and Al Qaeda operatives. Quite a few of these have happened to be Jewish or MOSSAD operatives.<br><br>In December 2002 the Executive Intelligence review reported that:<br><br>"the Israeli Mossad and other Israeli intelligence services have been involved in a 13-month effort to "recruit" an Israeli-run, phony "al-Qaeda cell" among Palestinians, so that Israel could achieve a frontline position in the U.S. war against terrorism and get a green light for a worldwide "revenge without borders" policy.'<br><br>The Sydney Morning Herald also reported :<br><br>"The Palestinian Authority arrested a group of collaborators who confessed they were working for Israel, posing as al-Qaeda operatives in the Palestinian territories," said the official, on condition of anonymity."<br><br>The AP also reported the operation:<br><br>"Early last week, Rashi Abu Sba, head of the preventive security apparatus in Gaza, the equivalent of the Shin Bet, accused the Israeli security service of tricking young Palestinians into conducting missions in the name of Al-Qaida."<br><br>MOSSAD has been caught on many occasions infiltrating radical groups to further their own agendas.<br><br>There are also many examples of other intelligence agencies using Al Qaeda as a front for their activities.<br><br>“Al Qaeda,” formerly a Mujahideen database, began as a CIA-ISI contrivance, with likely more than a little help not only from Mossad, but German intelligence (BND) and NATO, the latter two teaming up during the so-called Kosovo War (see German Intelligence and the CIA supported Al Qaeda sponsored Terrorists in Yugoslavia).<br><br>Terror expert John Loftus has previously confirmed this "...back in the late 1990s, the leaders all worked for British intelligence in Kosovo. Believe it or not, British intelligence actually hired some Al-Qaeda guys to help defend the Muslim rights in Albania and in Kosovo. That's when Al-Muhajiroun got started."<br><br>We have previously revealed how former MI5 officer David Shayler has alleged, and French intel sources have corroborated, that the MI6 paid a Libyan Al Qaeda cell £100,000 in 1995 to assassinate colonel Qaddafi. The use of the group that has come to be known as "Al Qaeda" as assets by Intelligence services the world over is well documented.<br><br>The London Independent also reported 2 days before the London Bombings how MI5 has previously used so called Al Qaeda operatives as informants, allowing them to be left alone as a trade off.<br><br>This only came to light when Bisher al-Rawi was captured by the CIA and taken to the detention centre at Guantanamo Bay. The original Independent link has now mysteriously been removed.<br><br>John Loftus also spelt out on FOX TV that British Intelligence and the US dept of Justice had protected Haroon Rashid Aswat, the originally cited mastermind of the 7/7 bombings: "Back in 1999 he came to America. The Justice Department wanted to indict him in Seattle because him and his buddy were trying to set up a terrorist training school in Oregon... we've just learned that the headquarters of the US Justice Department ordered the Seattle prosecutors not to touch Aswat... , apparently Aswat was working for British intelligence"<br><br>Furthermore, before he was laid out to pasture earlier this year, presumably because it was getting ridiculous the amount of times he had already been reported captured or killed, Musab Al-Zarqawi's role was exaggerated by The Pentagon in order to subtly link Iraq and 9/11 and quell criticism of the war.<br><br>Leaked documents even admitted that the Pentagon had concocted fake Al-Zarqawi letters boasting about suicide attacks and leaked them to the New York Times. The same documents directly stated that the false promotion of Al-Zarqawi included marking the the "U.S. Home Audience" as one of the targets of a broader propaganda campaign."<br><br>This information is startling and again highlights how Al Qaeda exists as an organized body only where the intelligence services have created, funded and employed it.....<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.infowars.net/articles/September2006/040906AlQaeda.htm">www.infowars.net/articles...lQaeda.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: While we wait politely for Alice to respond...

Postby AlicetheCurious » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:28 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>TENC has this whole deal about how the US and Iran are really working together. This is not Zionist propaganda as I haven't seen it anywhere else (the analysis, I mean, not the info which is easily accessible), Zionist or no. Mainstream Zionist thought is that Iran is evil and the US should and does oppose Iran. It goes against, in fact, everything that the neocons (as in "Zionist shills"<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START ;) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> are telling us. They tell us we must attack Iran...Jared Israel says we are working with Iran.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I'll tell you how I think this works, ok? The mainstream tells mainstream audiences that Iran is sponsoring al-Qaeda, endangering Israel and has a nuclear weapon, ok?<br><br>But this kind of bs doesn't wash with those of us who are better informed, right? In fact, that kind of agitprop might as well be wearing a "kick me" sign on its back.<br><br>Hmmm. What to do, what to do, to fragment what some are calling the "resistance front" to US hegemony? <br><br>Personally, I think it's very clever: convince some of the anti-neocon, anti-war, anti-globalization people that they can not trust their own judgement of who's who and what's what. <br><br>The pod people are everywhere. Iran, see, is really an agent provocateur/saboteur (those French! They have a word for everything), working for...America!<br><br>Now, I'm not saying such things don't happen <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :lol --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> But your Jared Israel seems to be really pushing this theory of his, which is long on excitement/conspiracy appeal, but short on actual evidence or facts.<br><br>So, on the one hand, some Zionists are pushing the "Leftists have been infiltrated by Nazis" meme, while others are pushing the "Iran is really a US stooge" theme. This can be found in the jukebox next to the "Hugo Chavez is really CIA" and the "Hamas is run by the Mossad" top of the pops. <br><br>I'll spell it out for you, who are so perplexed: all are distinguished by the almost complete lack of credible evidence, and by their apparent intent to sow division and mutual suspicion in anti-imperialist ranks, thereby undermining the formation of a global, broad-based coalition of resistance.<br><br>I'd like you to know that our week-ends here are Friday and Saturday.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: While we wait politely for Alice to respond...

Postby Dreams End » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:37 pm

Well, I can' t really reply as I don't know which evidence about Iran and the US you are denying. I think the fact that the US was supporting Bosnian Muslims and KLA and bringing in Islamic mercs who were funded by Iran is pretty well known. That's the most convincing example to me, but if you dispute that maybe I can find it documented someplace you'll find trustworthy...I'd known it for quite some time and, in fact, some Conservative commentators talk about the US support of Bosnian Muslims when expressing how shocked they are that Muslims aren't more "grateful" for US actions.<br><br>But in general, you just say it's all propaganda...no counter-evidence, not even a counter argument. <br><br>I have seen very little of this US/Iran really work together...so it can't be very good propaganda. And, again, if you'd be so kind as to point me to the other "zionist" sites that discuss the "nazi infiltration of the left" I'd be appreciative, as I don't find much of it at all and I'm actively looking for it.<br><br>(Please don't come back with the left anti-semitism links...for once again, that's not what you said and was not what I was talking about.)<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: I responded already!

Postby AlicetheCurious » Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:01 pm

Oh, ok, you mean you are looking for Zionists arguing that real, actual, jack-booted, swastika-wearing, card-carrying officers of the Third Reich infiltrated the Left?<br><br>No wonder you're not having any luck. Can you say goose(step) chase?<br><br>The Zionist pr machine is pushing the theme that naive, idealistic Leftists are being seduced, sometimes by Islamo-fascists, sometimes by self-hating Leftist Jewish ideologues, sometimes because of their misguided sympathy for the Arab victims of Israel, into anti-Zionism, which is, according to the playbook, the same old Nazi-type anti-semitism, garbed in a Leftist cloak.<br><br>As I mentioned before, there's a veritable avalanche of writings advocating this view.<br><br>But if you're listening for muffled cries of "Heil!" among genuine Leftists, you'll have to do that on your own. Let me know if you find anything.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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