on political Islam, "Ahmadinejad's World"

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October Surprise

Postby wordspeak » Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:14 pm

Alice- I appreciate a lot of the information you gave about Egypt, which was new to me, such as about the Kefaya movement. <br>But I don't really appreciate your attacking rhetorical questions like:<br>"<br>Are you suggesting that where "al-Qaeda" operates, "we" should commit massacres and war crimes?<br><br>Are you proposing that if someone is accused of membership in "al-Qaeda", they should be deprived of their human and legal rights?<br>"<br><br>Obviously, I don't, and I've protested the post 9/11 round-ups of Muslims and the post-9/11 racism against Muslims. I'm a progressive who's always seeking deeper geopolitical understanding. <br><br>I have a copy of Barbara Honegger's "October Surprise" in front of me here, and I've been skimming it (read it first a couple years ago). In very recent history, the U.S. has been caught in bed with Iran. I mean- Iran-Contra? So how do you get off saying there's nothing to the notion of the U.S. secretly being in cahoots with Iran? I think you're just reacting, not thinking. As Dreams End said, it's absurd to say that that's a propaganda meme, because where the hell is it, then, in propaganda world? nowhere to be found.<br><br>Maybe I'm nitpicking, but I take issue at your over-use of the term neo-con. It's popular post-9/11 to believe that the neo-cons run the world. The neo-cons have a lot of power, no denying that. But are disciples of Leo Strauss running the show all over the world, as you imply? Get out. The CIA and other U.S. intelligence has by far the most power. They work on behalf of the hugest paymasters, the Rockefellers, Rothschilds, etc., who collaborate in the Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations, and Bildeberg Group meetings (among other, probably less significant, organizations). Sure, M16/5 and the Mossad have power, too. <br>So when did everyone start saying that the neo-cons run the world? Was there a genuine seizure of/shifting in power? No way, Jose. There's a minor power struggle here or there amongst the global elites (and a lot of smoke and mirrors), but same old song remains the same, overall. So who are these neo-cons?<br><br>I agree with you entirely about "Al-Qaeda," and the Infowars article was good. It's Al-CIA-duh. And it's interesting that you say, "Al-Qaeda" can be the hidden hand that spreads confusion and discord between Shia and Sunni Muslims, and between Muslims and Christians." I'd like to hear you elaborate on that, if possible; it rings true to me. <br><br>I know that a lot of this has been discussed in different ways in the past at RI, but I think it needs to be discussed more.<br>Yes, Israel was formed with the signatures of John Rockefeller and Allen Dulles. Yes, it was established as an outpost of U.S./NWO power in the Middle East. However, a majority of Israeli Jews are progressive-minded people (who largely didn't support the attacks on Lebanon). Lefty Jews have always been a thorn in the system's side; that's why they were incinerated during the Holocaust (read Dave Mcgowan's "Understanding the F-Word"). It's particularly important to control people with leftist tendencies, like Jews. They're pretty damn controlled now, huh, living in fear of terrorism all the time? I bet the fascists would love to keep the people of a left-Democratic metropolis like New York living in that kind of fear. Oh, wait.<br>It's a case of the global elites controlling the power force on both sides of the perpetual war. Obviously, they're interested in A.the war continuing and escalating, and B.all politically left-minded peoples being neutralized. <br>Meanwhile, they get the added benefit of this being probably the single most emotional issue in the world, which is dividing the progressive and anti-war movements in the U.S. and Europe (which I've been a part of nationally in the U.S. and have seen it divide in the biggest way).<br><br>Muslims are certainly scapegoated in the big picture, but Jews are scapegoated as well. You want a *real* ubiquitous propaganda meme?-- "Jewish bankers run the world." Fucking neo-cons.<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: October Surprise

Postby Dreams End » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:27 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Oh, ok, you mean you are looking for Zionists arguing that real, actual, jack-booted, swastika-wearing, card-carrying officers of the Third Reich infiltrated the Left?<br><br>No wonder you're not having any luck. Can you say goose(step) chase?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>No, I'm talking about "third positionist" alliances or rapprochement between left and right...as in National Bolsheviks, as in RCP and its work with RCWP...all stuff I"ve mentioned. But I had to hunt pretty hard for that stuff. And you noticed, did you not, that RCP runs a wide variety of popular fronts, such as "Refuse and Resist" which was just quoted on another thread. <br><br>I've written so much about this...but that doesn't mean you've read it...most is on other threads or on my blog.<br><br>Meanwhile, I do also think that there is a strain of our national security state of Nazi thought perpetuated directly through the contacts with and importation of Nazis following WW2. So, when I talk about CIA infiltration (can't even call it that when they are doing it openly) of the left, that is also an example, though a bit more convoluted.<br><br>Read about Le Pen in France for yet another example, or google "third positionism." <br><br>Or read about envirofascism...one area I have found a bit more information...where the people's sincere concern over the environment is being manipulated by people harping about "carrying capacity" and offering solutions involving restricting immigration and allowing the "third world" to "sink beneath the waves". <br><br>wordspeak...sorry to be ignorant...how was Israel founded by Rockefeller and Dulles's signature? What I remember is Truman was for it and much of the state department was against it as they were rather firmly "Arabist". What was the role of Dulles and Rockefeller? I can totally buy behind the scenes stuff, but your mention of their "signature" made me curious.<br><br>Here's what I have learned. Truman --- very pro state of Israel. Eisenhower, not so much so. Policy begins to shift by the end of Eisenhower administration and under JFK it goes completely from one of maintaining a "balance of powers" in the ME to one favoring (overtly, at least) Israel. None of this mainstream history really takes into account behind the scenes stuff, such and Israeli funding of Muslim Brotherhood as a check on Nasser's growing (and secular) influence.<br><br>Since you also mention Rotshchilds..I'd be curious about your take on their real power in the modern world as opposed to 100 years ago. It is absolutely impossible to get reliable info on Rothschilds via the internet as there is no way to weed out the garbage. That could be another thread on its own, of course.<br><br>As for Israel as outpost of NWO...I'd say it's a disposable outpost. That's why the current situation is so anxiety invoking for me. I don't think for one second that the US will attack Iran. However, if we notice, Iran can't hit the US with missiles, but it sure can hit Israel. <br><br>Hopefully, that's not in the cards as I know the bad guys want some level of instability but I'm not sure they want THAT much instability...you can't pump oil when the ground is radioactive.<br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: October Surprise

Postby AlicetheCurious » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:44 am

wordspeak, I brought up the Jamaa Islameyya case as an example of what can be done when violence motivated by "religious" fanaticism is truly seen as a threat. The approach taken by the team of Islamic scholars dealt effectively (and dare I say with love?) with the young men who had been brainwashed into extremism.<br><br>Do you think that bombing the areas where they live and killing their family members would have had the same effect?<br><br>Of course you don't. I'm not accusing you of advocating mass murder, but, please, at least admit that when Zionists and US neocons talk about "Islamo-fascism", they are actually pushing an evil stereotype which they designed and nurtured, and then advocating one possible course of action: bomb the countries "that harbor them" back to the stone age. <br><br>This is usually the prelude to a neocon restructuring of the country's economy to make it into a rich source of corporate profits for those who made the bombs and decided where to drop them, and their good corporate buddies.<br><br>Of course, bombing is not mandatory -- sometimes coups and the installation of puppet regimes are good enough. The whole point is to build a global monopoly of money and power for the neocons, how one gets there is secondary. (Of course, bombing has the advantage of being an excellent way to siphon billions of taxpayer money into one's pockets).<br><br>The reason why the neocons and the Zionists prefer to "shock and awe" poor, much weaker, foreign countries, is that those who aren't killed or scared shitless, try to resist and retaliate, thus bolstering the aggressors' claim that they are fighting "terrorism" and "hate", without in any way posing a real danger to their corporate or strategic interests.<br><br>True believers back in the Homeland, blinded by fear and loathing, support the most appalling crimes and abuses committed by their governments, sometimes regretfully, but without questioning their necessity. (It reminds me of the Israeli "shoot and cry syndrome", also expressed by Golda Meir in her immortal cry of the anguished mass murderer:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours."<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Which begs the question: can you forgive us for stealing our land and building Jewish-only towns and cities on it, connected by Jewish-only roads? Can you forgive us for stealing our water and using it to landscape your gardens and fill your swimming pools, while we barely have enough to drink? Can you forgive us for destroying our agricultural lands, and bulldozing our olive groves and fruit orchards? Can you forgive us for imprisoning and torturing our children? Can you forgive us for putting us in concentration camps? Can you forgive us for stealing our money and starving us? Can you forgive us for sending your armed settlers to shoot at us and our families, for terrorizing us in our own homes?<br><br>So much to forgive. The crimes of the Palestinians are indeed unforgivable.<br><br>Back to our subject of "Islamo-fascists": Mind you, it has not always been easy to find real Arab terrorists, thus the remarkably high number of Jamaican, Puerto Rican and African-American "converts" and British Pakistanis, not to mention entirely fictionalized fabrications such as "Osama bin Laden" (who's probably been dead for at least 4 years) and the "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi" holograph.<br><br>Just so we're on the same page, I define the term "Zionist" as someone who is convinced that the maintenance and expansion of the state of Israel are of greater value and importance than the human and legal rights of non-Jews, and who believes that the state of Israel should not be forcibly subjected to any limitations related to morality, decency and international law.<br><br>Such beliefs are not always spelled out, but that is the essence, once all the pretty words and self-righteous arguments are boiled down.<br><br>As for the term "neoconservatism", I consider it to be almost indistinguishable from Zionism, with the United States replacing Israel, with a similarly exclusivist, mystical view of the State, transcending any moral or legal considerations. <br><br>One distinction between the two, is while Zionism perceives corporate expansion as one means to serve the State, neoconservatism perceives unfettered corporate expansion as a primary goal, the State's role being primarily to facilitate and promote this goal, even at the expense of the State itself.<br><br>It's not surprising that both are very popular with religious fanatics and xenophic "patriots", particularly the most ignorant and/or those who view the world exclusively through the corporate media lens. In addition, of course, to those fortunate few who rake in the cash or otherwise benefit, and whose influence far outweighs their tiny numbers.<br><br>DE, as for Israel being a "disposable outpost" of the NWO, the facts do not bear this out. You may disagree that Zionist thought and loyalty to Israel permeate decision-making at the highest government and corporate levels in the US, but there are many persuasive examples, including the thinkers who wrote "A Clean Break" for Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu and then could be found busily formulating US foreign policy from their lofty perches in the White House a few years later. <br><br>And I don't see how you can deny that so many other measures defined by Israeli thinkers as "vital to Israel's interests and objectives", are later re-packaged and implemented as US foreign policy. One example of this being the documented Zionist goal to divide Iraq into three separate regions along ethnic lines. <br><br>Lo and behold, millions of Iraqi corpses later (don't forget the decade of sanctions that killed at least 1.5 million Iraqis, 500,000 of them children, and the now estimated 655,000 directly attributed to the US illegal invasion), not to mention almost 3,000 dead US troops, the very latest idea coming out of influential think-tanks is that maybe the best solution to the "Iraqi quagmire" is, <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>drumroll</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->, to divide Iraq into three separate regions along ethnic lines... Talk about deja-vu.<br><br>(<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>On edit: I hadn't even seen Gouda's thread when I wrote this... Check it out:</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm10.showMessage?topicID=6493.topic)">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...493.topic)</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Maybe the Arabs should just ask Israel what it wants, and then do it to themselves, quickly and as painlessly as possible. Why drag things out? <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=alicethecurious>AlicetheCurious</A> at: 10/12/06 7:47 am<br></i>
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Re: October Surprise

Postby Dreams End » Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:21 am

Alice, you are right that the idea that Israel is "disposable" is unique maybe to me. So I can't prove that. All I can prove is that there are Arab states that also get lots of US support and that the US has worked with some of these anti-Israeli groups and countries in various ways. So I won't try to defend that...just a sense I have.<br><br>I am on much firmer ground when I join you in condemning the millions (this is correct) of deaths due to U.S. invasion and sanctions, but not that Israel is the sole or even primary reason for this. There are simply LOTS of "good" reasons for the US to do this, as well as the division of Iraq into three parts. In fact, if the search engine on this site were any good, you could search and see that I have consistently said that the goal was the destruction of Iraq and that, therefore, all this talk about "incompetence" is naive, at best, and most likely deliberate disinfo.<br><br>So we agree on that as well, though not the primary root causes. For that, I'd say just look at two things: the history of British and US involvement in the region and also the history of the way the US has treated other countries, which is completely consistent with what's happening in Iraq and cannot be linked in any causal way at all with Israel. I brought up Indonesia, for example, and the CIA's creation of the coup that brought Suharto to power as well as supplying the information that led to the murder of at least half a million communists and alleged communists. <br><br>Finally, I'd point out again that you have yet to respond to my contention that some Islamic groups have been funded by the US, Britain and even Israel in order to offset secular, left opposition. <br><br>In my view, almost all of US foreign policy (covert and overt) can be explained by three factors:<br><br>Access to resources in an area<br>Prevention or offsetting of rival influence in a resource rich area<br>The prevention or destruction of any movement within an area that threatens US hegemony or access to those markets. <br><br>I know this is a conspiracy site that delves into all kinds of weirdness among our elites, but as a basic guideline, those three factors explain just about everything I see my country do.<br><br>the Middle East is no different.<br><br>There is oil.<br>There was perceived USSR influence (knowingly exaggerated) and there were movements that threatened US oil company access to the region.<br><br>There's some other geostrategic stuff as well....fomenting instability in countries ringing Russia, for example, but all to the same end.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: October Surprise

Postby AlicetheCurious » Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:27 am

Well, pop-me-cork! We actually agree on something!<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>In my view, almost all of US foreign policy (covert and overt) can be explained by three factors:<br><br>Access to resources in an area<br>Prevention or offsetting of rival influence in a resource rich area<br>The prevention or destruction of any movement within an area that threatens US hegemony or access to those markets.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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...

Postby wordspeak » Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:18 pm

I'm rushed at a cafe right now...<br>But I'd add that any government or people that sets a good example of functioning outside the capitalist world order- regardless of resources- is a threat, and U.S. policy functions by destabilizing it/them.<br><br>Anyway, I'm glad you're not "accusing [me] of mass murder," Alice, cause I could get in a lot of trouble for that. Fortunately, I don't support my government bombig anybody.<br><br>I think "Islamo-fascism" is a bad term designed by U.S. elites, and it has to do also with seizing use of the term fascism, but there is clearly a *real* thread of fundamentalist Islam that promotes terrorism and martyrism, and is supported tacitly by U.S. intelligence.<br><br> I'm fine with your umbrella definition of Zionism. But, again, where does the primary power lie? Do you believe Israel is the center of world power? It'd be a joke, if only so many people didn't believe this obvious propaganda lie. Your persistent use of these words to mean the global power elites borders on flaming anti-semitism. The Israeli government is doing a lot of fucked up things, your stuff in code reads, "The Jews are trying to expand Israel and take over the world. What do you really believe about how the system works and where the power lies? Are you clear about it in your own mind?<br><br>Is Israel expanding? It isn't, is it? The opposite is happening, actually.<br>If Israel is unexpendable, tell us how it's unexpendable. I say it's expendable.<br><br>Dreams End, I had read other places, but just re-read in Dave Mcgowan's "Understanding the F-Word" about Rockefeller and Dulles' role in the League of Nations' creation of Israel. But, also, many who opposed Israel's creation were calling it "Bolshevik." I think the global PTB have always needed an Israeli government that was highly controlled, to keep the Jews' proverbial "Bolshevist" inclinations in check.<br><br>The question of the Rothschilds' power today is interesting. It's hard to know, though I assume they do still have a lot of power. I think I remember reading an article about Soros' financial connections to the Rothschilds; I'll look for it. I know that Soros is simply a figurehead who represents a much broader European financial network that's a huge NWO player.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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p.s.

Postby wordspeak » Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:23 pm

What's your blog, Alice? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: p.s.

Postby AlicetheCurious » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:50 pm

I have no blog, goodness, I can't imagine where I would find the time...<br><br>As for Israel's expansion...I had to stare at what you wrote for a few seconds, because I thought I was hallucinating.<br><br>You don't know that after the 1947 UN Partition, Israel expanded to what are referred to as 1948 borders? That it further expanded after the 1967 war, to occupy the Syrian Golan Heights, the West Bank and Gaza? That it further expanded during its 1982 invasion of Lebanon, occupying the Lebanese Shebaa Farms region? That if it hadn't been for the heroic Lebanese resistance, led by Hizbullah, they would probably still be occupying South Lebanon today?<br><br>You don't know that Israel still refuses to officially declare its final borders? Well, it's true. Why do you think Israel has no official borders?<br><br>Even within these occupied territories, to which Israel has no legitimate legal claim, there has been an ongoing and devastating process of ethnic cleansing, pushing the Palestinians into smaller and more isolated regions, with the bulk of the land, the water, the access to the outside, all being appropriated for exclusive Jewish use. <br><br>The illegal Jewish settlements are being built and expanded without interruption, even faster when world attention is focussed on some major event such as the September 11 attacks, the US/UK invasion of Iraq, or the Israeli bombing of Lebanon.<br><br>And even in those concentration camp-like conditions in which many displaced Palestinians struggle to survive, they are subjected to constant attacks and vandalism by the Israeli Occupation Forces, or by the violent armed Jewish settlers, whose leaders include many who call for a forced population "transfer" of Palestinians out of their country, or outright extermination.<br><br>Based on the history of the past 60 years, all the Arab countries in the Middle East rightly fear Israel's bottomless greed for more living-space for Jewish settlers, for more of the region's precious resources, such as water, oil and gas.<br><br>With Israel currently the most powerful military machine in the region, greater than the military capabilities of the 22 countries of the Arab League combined, with more nuclear warheads than India and Pakistan COMBINED, with an enormous arsenal of biological and chemical weapons, and with the unconditional support of the US military behemoth, I'd say they have good reason to be afraid. Don't you think so?<br><br>You don't know this? <p></p><i></i>
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BUSH connection to IRAN

Postby MASONIC PLOT » Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:22 pm

The Bushes & the Truth About Iran<br><br>Long history between the bushies and iran.<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://baltimorechronicle.com/2006/092106PARRY.shtml">baltimorechronicle.com/20...ARRY.shtml</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: on political Islam, "Ahmadinejad's World"

Postby MASONIC PLOT » Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:28 pm

Today's 'Islamic Fascists' Were Yesterday's Friends<br><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=O'20060831&articleId=3109">www.globalresearch.ca/ind...cleId=3109</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><br>The Globalists and the Islamists:<br><br>Fomenting the "Clash of Civilizations" for a New World Order<br><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.redmoonrising.com/Ikhwan/Clash.htm">www.redmoonrising.com/Ikhwan/Clash.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><br>The Bushes & the Truth About Iran<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://baltimorechronicle.com/2006/092106PARRY.shtml">baltimorechronicle.com/20...ARRY.shtml</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
MASONIC PLOT
 

Adam Gadahn

Postby yathrib » Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:51 pm

Here is the link to Adam Gadahn's "Becoming Muslim"<br><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/archive/oldnews5/becomingmuslim.htm">www.francesfarmersrevenge...muslim.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>I wonder what you or the author you quote meant by saying that this was written "from a Zionist perspective." It seems like a garden variety conversion narrative, or what Christians call a "testimony," to me. You know, "My life was a complete mess until I discovered Scientology or colonic irrigation, or whatever..." And does the fact that Gadahn is one quarter Jewish necessarily make him a Mossad agent? Isn't it possible that he is a sincere if misquided convert to Islam? Just asking... <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Adam Gadahn

Postby AlicetheCurious » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:45 am

Yathrib, I agree; I just read the Gadahn's "testimonial" and now I'm as puzzled as you about what the writer meant by saying it was written "from a Zionist perspective". As far as I can tell, it could easily have been written by any Muslim convert.<br><br>The part I don't get, is how he went from this perfectly normal and thoughtful guy, to a wacko advocating mass murder? Of his own people (Americans)?<br><br>It really doesn't compute, I'd love to see a convincing explanation. <p></p><i></i>
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Gadahn the wacko

Postby yathrib » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:30 am

Yes, there's a lot about him and all these alleged Al Qaeda people that needs explanation... No argument there. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=yathrib>yathrib</A> at: 10/13/06 7:32 am<br></i>
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Re: Gadahn the wacko

Postby Dreams End » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:30 am

<br><br>He sounds like a spy to me...kinda David Myatt like.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Gadahn and Oswald

Postby yathrib » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:33 am

A lot of Gadahn's attention getting strategies sound like those used by Oswald when he was strutting around Dallas bragging about being a commie, etc. <p></p><i></i>
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