Hancock on drugs, entities, DNA

by **banned** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:18 pm

....thank you for a reasonable and truly tolerant post. Makes a telling contrast to some other folks not mentioning any names. (Wait, I already did <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> ). Actually I love to sing and do so all the time, just not in public. The problem was I inherited an incredibly deep voice from my mother (who was always taken on the phone for my father, as was I once into my teens.) People said from the time I learned to talk this deep voice coming out of a little kid was comical.At 10 I played King Arthur in "Camelot" and sounded just like Richard Burton on the Broadway cast album. From sixth grade on in church choir, I got to sing at rehearsals (even though it made Sr. Bernard wince) but had to lipsynch at performances (just call me Ashlee Simpson.) The ONLY time I sound good is when I'm doing Carol Channing, who also had a deep gravelly voice--I do an amazing "Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend." Otherwise, I sound like Louis Armstrong, which is fine except it doesn't fit with my appearance (think chubby Emmylou Harris.) So my dream of being a musical star on Broadway will never come true unless someone gets the incredibly bad idea of casting an overweight fiftyesque female in a revival of "Camelot" (sounds like something out of "The Producers"). And I'd STILL probably lose out to Dame Edna Everage.

by **robertdreed** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:28 pm

"So what we're left with is, what I've gotten is a lot of disrespect and invalidation for my opinion which I never claimed should be the opinion of any other soul on the planet let alone the basis for social policy." Nonetheless, if you walk into a room full of black people and start in on your opinion about their inferiority, expect to get called on it. The quote I excerpted without comment in my previous post represents nothing if not an attempt at utter and complete invalidation of the opinion of others. Contempt, disrespect. There's obviously only one answer to your rhetorical question that you'll accept- the one you provided. Presumably, as fr as you're concerned, any other answer is indicative of either self-deception or knowing fraud. I don't think that you deserve being inaccurately labelled as a minion of the Drug Inquisition. But you waited for a total of two comments before popping off with a gratuitous dismissal of the psychedlic experience. You've since shown that your scholarly command of the subject is rudimentary, at best. Case in point- what was it you were saying about spiders spinning webs on LSD? "...ever see that famous photo of a spider web spun by a spider on LSD?" Well, yeah, I've seen it. <a href="http://www.psymon.com/psychedelia/images/spiders.html">www.psymon.com/psychedeli...iders.html</a> Your point? I'll share here that despite the "encouraging" result indicated by the photos in the study above, I remain stolid in my conviction that spiders don't provide the most accurate analog to the human organism, in terms of drug studies. A different study <a href="http://www.psymon.com/psychedelia/images/spiders.html">www.psymon.com/psychedeli...iders.html</a> Man, that caffeinated spider...wait until DARE sees that one. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 12/16/05 1:16 am

by **Biggie** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:29 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Now, you tell me whether it is ME who is being a closed minded asshat, or my opponents. Who has the genuinely open mind? Who has been honest about what formed their opinions? (me and nomo who said "I like to get fucked up"<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> And who has repeated the same trite, tired boilerplate that's been going around since the Beats...Alan Watts blahblahblah...see God...nature of reality....SNORE.<hr></blockquote> I'm with banned on this one (I'm the guy who said "I liked to get fucked up"). I personally don't care for psychedelics all that much. I'll take some 'shrooms if they're around. LSD is interesting, but didn't blow my mind like I expected. I can't stand marijuana. My drugs of choice are alcohol and stimulants (cocaine, Adderall and Ritalin). Now, I don't care if people take LSD, shrooms, peyote, mescaline, DMT or whatever. It's their body and their choice. What DOES bother me is the elitism that comes from certain people that do take those drugs. More specifically I dislike their elitism about the IDEAS that they say came from their "trip". Those drugs can lead to fascinating revelations about the world, but I don't think it's necessary to take those drugs to have those thoughts. The drugs are a tool. The trick is learning to do it without them. That's true "enlightenment" (or whatever the hell you want to call it) Hell, even Ken Kesey said there comes a time when one has to "graduate" from LSD. That being said, I'll continue to "alter my consciousness" (or as I prefer "get fucked up") with drugs. Why? Because it's fun. That's all the justification I need.

by **robertdreed** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:34 pm

Your characterization of someone else's self-evaluation of their psychedelic experience is no more valid than that of "banned." You've had your reward, it seems, and other people have theirs. However, it seems that you've added to your previous comment, and that you do acknowledge some utility in psychedelic experience that goes beyond merely "getting fucked up"...otherwise you wouldn't be using words like "tool" to describe the properties of LSD, right? "What DOES bother me is the elitism that comes from certain people that do take those drugs. More specifically I dislike their elitism about the IDEAS that they say came from their "trip". Those drugs can lead to fascinating revelations about the world, but I don't think it's necessary to take those drugs to have those thoughts." Once again, I'm seeing comments addressed toward opinions that haven't been expressed in the discussion thread. By now, there's 63 posts on this board, and I don't feel like re-reading them all...but if you can find a quote that you think expresses sentiments to that effect by a participant in this discussion, excerpt it and put it up here. I'm fairly certain that I haven't said anything in my own comments that reflects such a view. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 12/15/05 8:52 pm

by **Biggie** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:48 pm

I was speaking in general. My comments were not directed towards anything anyone has posted in this thread. And, no, I don't not acknowledge some utility of the psychedelic experience on a personal level. None of the trips I've taken have resulted in anything but a sense of well being and some pretty colors. I used the word "tool" because people other than myself do credit the drugs with giving them some kind of "experience". The drug was the avenue that lead to that experience and that's why I said "tool". I wasn't trying to be denegrate their experience.

by **robertdreed** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:51 pm

Thanks for the additional self-explanation. I yield the floor.

by **banned** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:15 am

Source: Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions Date: 1998-11-03 Hopkins Study Shows Brain Damage Evidence In "Ecstasy" Users "...people who use (it) unwittingly put themselves at risk" Related News Stories Ecstasy Use Depletes Brain's Serotonin Levels (July 28, 2000) -- Use of the recreational drug Ecstasy causes a severe reduction in the amount of serotonin in the brain, according to a study in the July 25 issue of Neurology, the scientific journal of the American ... > full story Ecstasy Link To Long-Term Brain Damage (March 5, 2002) -- Disturbing evidence is emerging that the increasingly popular drug ecstasy can be linked to users suffering long-term brain damage. University of Adelaide researchers have found that ecstasy taken on ... > full story Ecstasy Component May Help Researchers Measure Brain Damage From The Drug (August 16, 2001) -- Researchers in Spain have isolated for the first time a by-product of the illicit drug Ecstasy that is believed to cause some of the brain damage associated with the drug. They believe their finding ... > full story Reseachers Find Evidence That Prenatal Use Of Ecstasy Can Cause Long-Term Memory Loss And Other Impairments In Offspring (May 2, 2001) -- Researchers have reported the first evidence that a mother's use of MDMA (ecstasy) during pregnancy may result in specific types of long-term learning and memory impairments in her offspring. ... > full story > more related stories Related sections: Health & Medicine Mind & Brain Trends & Issues Advertisement The common street drug "ecstasy" causes brain damage in people, according to a new Johns Hopkins study. In a report in The Lancet released this week, Hopkins scientists show that the drug -- known chemically as MDMA -- damages specific nerves in the brain that release serotonin, the nerve transmitter thought to play a role in regulating mood, memory, pain perception, sleep, appetite and sexual activity. "We had long suspected MDMA was dangerous, based on our earlier studies in primates that showed nerve damage at doses similar to those taken by recreational drug users," says neurologist George Ricaurte, M.D., Ph.D., who led the research team. Additional studies by the team examined drug users' spinal fluid for levels of a serotonin by product; reduced amounts strongly suggested brain damage in humans. "But this is the first time we've been able to examine the actual serotonin-producing nerve cells directly in the brain," Ricaurte says. Using a nerve-specific technique that took more than five years to develop, the scientists took PET scans of 14 men and women who reported heavy use of ecstasy. With a radio-labeled probe, the team targeted molecules -- serotonin transporters -- that normally reabsorb serotonin into nerve cells after it has done its job. Like certain antidepressants, MDMA also attaches to serotonin transporters. The transporters lie embedded in the membranes of nerve cells, at the tips of fingerlike extensions called axons. In the study, the PET scans showed MDMA users had far fewer serotonin transporters than controls who didn't use the drug. Also, the greater the use of MDMA -- some of the subjects had used it 200 or more times -- the greater the loss. "These losses are significant, and, along with our early studies in animals, suggest that nerve cells are damaged," says Ricaurte. Whether or not the cells are permanently damaged, he says, is uncertain. But in studies in animals, including primates, the losses are long-lasting and may be permanent in some brain regions. The area of brain damage is diffuse but involves the endings of serotonin-releasing nerves that reach throughout the forebrain -- the "higher" brain that includes the cerebral cortex and adjacent areas, parts of the brain involved in thought, memory and emotion. Ecstasy is a designer drug hybrid of the hallucinogen mescaline and the stimulant amphetamine. Users report a heightened sense of closeness with others, increased awareness of emotion and ability to communicate. "They find these effects unique," says Ricaurte, "and we hope to use this new technique to explore the basis for good feelings, as well as for depression and anxiety. But our immediate concern is that people who use MDMA recreationally are unwittingly putting themselves at risk of developing brain injury."

by **Project Willow** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:44 am

Aww, I was just getting excited about MDMA & PTSD. That was one drug I actually liked (over twenty years ago when I tried it a few times). As for LSD, the perp bastards also gave it to us kids in the mc programs. I was only 4 and a half the first time. I have one very clear memory resulting from that incident. One of my docs, upon being asked about the flowing bright colors surrounding the figures in my paintings said, well, they used a lot of drugs in the programs. I would never do LSD again. I refuse to take psychotropics of any kind, although I've been tempted by a few. The very idea of being drugged out of my reality (even though some of my internal reality is indeed based on former drugged states) is abhorrent to me. Give me the pain straight up please, no chaser. But many survivors find it impossible to do the healing work or cope with these incredibly extreme trauma histories without some help, and I won't begrudge them their choices. I may even change my mind on the issue one day. RDR, I agree with your assessment of psychotropics, there is much abuse there. Wait, wait, stamp an 'H' on my forehead, I do drink occasionally, and I do nicotine. Is it possible involuntary experimental drugging might be influencing the volitile nature of this thread? Don't want to hit any nerves, just wondering aloud. If I remember correctly there were some 120 (160?) drugs they tested on subjects in the mc programs. I should post a list when I get ahold of one.

by **robertdreed** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:56 am

Come on. If that's your best response, at least exercise enough restraint to content yourself with supplying the link, with perhaps an opening abstract. You don't have to wallpaper the discussion. I personally think that talking about Graham Hancock and the phenomenon of the Ayahuasca Bandwagon is much preferable to getting into a link war over psychedelics, but if that's what you want...

by **heyjt** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:25 am

Thank you robertdreed. I haven't heard anyone else comment on the speculation that Hancock (and possibly others) suggest that the human DNA may evolve when shocked by altered states, wheather drug induced or not. Hancock's point about taking the drugs was there is no way he could have attempted to write about these experiances without first experiancing them. Does this fact ring familiar in this thread??

by **professorpan** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:42 am

Sorry, but that MDMA research has been fairly well refuted. A comprehensive collection of the research (pro- and con) can be found here, for those who care to investigate further: <a href="http://www.maps.org/mdma/">www.maps.org/mdma/</a> In one study, the main investigator, George Ricaurte of Johns Hopkins, mistakely (cough) fed doses of methamphetamine -- not 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (Ecstasy) -- to the monkeys -- poisoning them, in essence, with something known to be highly neurotoxic. Some dare to suggest he did it on purpose to generate more government (anti-MDMA) grant money... but that's just crazy talk... MDMA, in normal (100-150mg), therapeutic doses, has not been shown to cause permanent changes to the brain. As with any drug -- legal or illegal -- the user should inform him/herself as to any risks and make an intelligent decision. Abuse, as with any substance, will of course cause problems. The safety of some legal psychotropic drugs, including antidepressants, are more worrisome (Paxil, in particular, as rdr mentioned). MDMA is currently undergoing testing around the world for the treatment of PTSD. I've talked to several psychiatrists and therapists who (off the record, of course) think MDMA is probably the best way to treat victims of trauma and violence. One session can break as much ground as months or years of standard therapy. The teaching manual for MDMA therapy is an interesting read for any counselor or mental health worker: <a href="http://www.maps.org/research/mdma/ptsd_study/treatment-manual/053005/index.html">www.maps.org/research/mdm...index.html</a> I would recommend that victims of abuse/torture/violence keep an open mind about this substance and follow the research as it develops. If it is eventually legalized for therapeutic use, it will undoubtedly help many people to heal themselves. One shouldn't let preconceived opinions or biases prevent one from accepting the validity of a medicine. If the evidence says it helps people, and it's judged safe, then keeping it away from sick people is no different than withholding penicillin from someone with a treatable infection. Project Willow: Wouldn't it be ironic if a psychedelic/empathogenic drug turned out to be an appropriate medicine to heal the damage inflicted by MKULTRA and other trauma-based programming? A tool of the torturer's arsenal turned into a tool against him? Again, I'm not suggesting MDMA or any other psychedelic is right for everyone -- just that more and more evidence is emerging that certain psychedelics can help some people. And that is encouraging.

by **monster** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:08 am

there are secrets hidden in our DNA. I'm not sure what relationship that would have to hallucinogens, though. When I learned about introns, in biology class, I immediately thought of "comments" in programming code. Comments are parts of the code that aren't executed, and that's what introns are. Sometimes, a programmer will leave put extra configuration options in the code as comments. That way, if you want extra functionality, you can un-comment that code and then it will be executed. I wish it was ethical to experiment on humans, because who knows what kinds of functionality are hidden in those introns. Maybe some sort of psychic ability. Either that, or they're a "signature" from the programmers. Or a message they want us to find.

by **GDN01** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:35 am

Thank you Profpan. MDMA, when used in therapeutic doses, has not been found to have harmful side effects for most people. And I think it is safe to say that all prescription drugs may have SOME side effects for SOME people. I don't think there is a drug out there that doesn't, and some that are on the market have far greater side effects than those that have been linked to MDMA. If MDMA is abused, it can cause problems. If alcohol is abused, it can kill you, too. One of the problems with linking club deaths to MDMA is that there are usually a number of drugs being mixed, including alcohol, and it is the mixture that becomes deadly. People shouldn't take any drug without fully understanding what are the appropriate levels to take, and what it can be taken with - this goes for prescription drugs, too. In my opinion, the biggest risk of taking non-prescription drugs - things like X or acid, is that because it is illegal, there are no regulatory systems to make sure you are getting what you think you are, in the doses you think you are. You can chem-test some drugs, but most low-level users don't bother to invest in the equipment to do so. PW - What Profpan has reported is what I have read, too. The breakthroughs with PTSD are achieved in a few sessions with MDMA, and have been successful when other methods, such as the EMDR that banned mentions, have not been helpful. I've been in therapy, for years at different times in my life. Even used EMDR. In the past 3 years, I've done X on 4 occasions - and not in club scenes. I have a group of friends I trust and we do it together for the spiritual awakening we know it can allow. It may be awhile before it is ever made available to patients in the U.S. in therapeutic settings. But it is used in other countries in Europe, now. And there are studies being conducted in the U.S. - maybe you could find a study to participate in?

by **Project Willow** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:46 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Project Willow: Wouldn't it be ironic if a psychedelic/empathogenic drug turned out to be an appropriate medicine to heal the damage inflicted by MKULTRA and other trauma-based programming? A tool of the torturer's arsenal turned into a tool against him?<hr></blockquote> Yes, that would be awesome. I'm sending that link to my doc. GDNO1, can I join in one of your group sessions? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">

by **GDN01** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:49 am

PW - I would love to meet you and share the experience.

Hancock on drugs, entities, DNA

PS I forgot Pants Elk...

on bigotry

Re: quote without comment

Biggie

Re: Biggie

Re: Biggie

Quoted without comment.

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banned...

I second the motion...

Bzzzzt!

I also think

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