rigorousintuition.ca

E.g., the minority view:<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.animals.org/">www.animals.org/</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>E.g., the majority view:<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/papers/animconc.htm">ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/pap...imconc.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>What's the RI view? <p></p><i></i>

From the blog comments:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The biggest difference between us is that we have a sense of mortality, animals do not. So they don't think about the future they live for the day.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>And yet...<br><br>Animals can sense death and flee from it. They take shelter during storms, keep their distance from suspicious creatures, mourn over their dead relatives, become nervous when left alone. They can sense injury risk of hopping a picket fence and dread the consequences of taking too high a jump. Moreover, as animals age, they remember to avoid species and landmarks that once threatened them, and to be loyal to people and places who nourished them. And when an animal is old, the weariness of being old and close to death is visible in their gait and on their expressive faces. Some animals wander off and hide to die.<br><br>That's not a sense of mortality?<br><br>How well are we humans exercising our supposedly deep and sophisticated appreciation for mortality and the future, anyway? How actually developed is our sense of mortality?<br><br>Seems we have a keen sense of mortality for ourselves, but not so much for "others". E.g., genocide. A more ironic example: The mortality of animals we eat is barely considered. Kind of convenient, no? Determining that animals have no sense of "otherness", no sense of mortality happens to be a (bogus) justification for imposing mortality and "nothingness" on them when we slaughter them and rip them apart for food.<br><br>(IMO, Every carnivore is a gruesome accomplice to serial murder, cooking and eating dismembered victims of an inferior class. Every steak, ham, or chicken dinner is a little holocaust in your home. Not figuratively. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Literally</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->.) <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=fourthbase>FourthBase</A> at: 5/4/06 6:37 pm<br></i>

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The biggest difference between us is that we have a sense of mortality, animals do not. So they don't think about the future they live for the day.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Complete BS. <br><br>Could only be written by someone who has never had a <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>relationship</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> with an animal. They may well have spent thousands of hours studying animals but it's not the same. <br><br>I once inadvertantly caught a mouse in a trap by the tail and I am absolutely convinced that as I and that little fellow squared up to one another in the morning light his life was as precious to him as my life is to me. He was shaking with fear and nearly in shock with what I am assuming was a mixture of fright and pain. I let him go, of course, outside. <br><br>But the look in his eyes and the sense of pity that it aroused in me has never quite left me. <p></p><i></i>

It's a provocative topic, thanks for introducing it here. I've been beginning to wonder more about it myself.<br><br>Throwing out a couple of observations to maybe develop further later:<br><br>Some animals are much better receivers than we are. For instance, there are many anecdotes of pets becoming agitated and panicky just before their owners have a paranormal or "alien" encounter. It seems their reality encompasses more vibrations than ours, so when an energy/entity is phase-shifting down into "matter" it first becomes visible to animal minds.<br><br>And FWIW, a kind of animal consciousness seems a common message of the ayahuasca experience. Perhaps not as differentiated as human consciousness, but something seems to be there. <p></p><i></i>

From animals.org...<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The brains of other mammals, for example, are different from those of humans primarily in that the latter have much bigger cortices. This explains why humans are better able to think. But it has no bearing on their ability to experience pain or to suffer.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>How much of our consciousness is also pain and suffering?<br>How different are human and animal consciousnesses when experiencing pain, fear, shock, thirst, pleasure? <p></p><i></i>

Well, I can't claim to communicate with my animals the way my husband can - he can report what they are saying at any given moment (and he's a computer programmer). I recognize the "yawn" of hello I get from my cats when I get home, and the various other basic messages they give out. However, if you believe that the brain is really only a giant receiver of messages, why should animals not be equally sensitive in receiving and passing along information. I read recently of a researcher who taught birds grammar. I guess we're just the big dumb ones walking around thinking we're hot snot when we're really just cold boogers .... cheers, Connut <p></p><i></i>

I know a guy whose Harvard graduate research involves the intelligence, ESP, and emotional bonds of grey parrots. The stories he has... <p></p><i></i>

One other, a memory sparked by jeff's comments:<br><br>I was at a girlfriends flat in London once and her Yorkshire Terrier suddenly went barking mad at what was apparently thin air in front of him. I was quite surprised by this but my girlfriend told me not to worry and that the dog often did this. Spookily, the dog then continued to bark at thin air while apparently following <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>something</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> in that thin air across the room - if that makes sense. <br><br>The dog very definitely seemed to see or sense something we could not and - in that way that dogs do - it shepherded it from the room. <br><br>Save for a similar event one night in the same flat, this is pretty much the only supernatural-ish encounter of my forty years. [Sigh]. <p></p><i></i>

Just looking at pets I have had some have personality with unique traits and others were just animals.<br><br>Ever read of animals who follow family members when they move and are left behind? This actually happened to a relative. The wife didn't want the dog even though he was well behaved. Husband gives in even though the kids are upset and so when they move several states away he gives away the dog to a friend. About a month later after the dog takes off. Weeks later it turns up at the new home when it had never left it's old home town before with paws walked bloody. How could it have followed them across several states to a place it had never been on a trail a month old? <p></p><i></i>

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>(IMO, Every carnivore is a gruesome accomplice to serial murder, cooking and eating dismembered victims of an inferior class. Every steak, ham, or chicken dinner is a little holocaust in your home. Not figuratively. Literally.)<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I have to ask, does the same apply to non-human carnivores? <br><br> <p></p><i></i>

I haven't read this book but I've seen a televised study supporting it. It isn't just a matter of pets learning their owners' routine, because even when the owner followed a random pattern the dog appeared to know when she was returning. At the moment the owner turned her car towards home (and miles from home, far out of earshot), the dog dropped his activity in order to sit by the front door.<br><br><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://thewitness.org/archive/sept2002/img/dogbookcover.jpg" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Sheldrake’s book is filled with stories of cats that disappear when a trip to the vet is in the offing, dogs that howl when human companions die far from home, parrots that regularly anticipate a family member’s return from work. Controlled experiments have convinced Sheldrake that such behavior is not easily explained away, by acute animal hearing, for example, or a regular pattern to human schedules. The fact that it is generally ignored by scientists is due, he believes, to two taboos: the taboo against taking pets seriously (which he attributes to "the split attitudes toward animals" in a society that depends on animal exploitation), and the taboo against taking psychic or "paranormal" experiences seriously.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rigorousintuition>Rigorous Intuition</A> at: 5/5/06 10:33 am<br></i>

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"How could it have followed them across several states to a place it had never been on a trail a month old?'</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> -- Chiaroscuro<br><br>I recently had occasion to do a small amount of research on the presence of <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>magnetite</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> in birds' brains, googlesearchlink: <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://tinyurl.com/zqqgk,">tinyurl.com/zqqgk,</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> as regards their navigational abilities.<br><br>There is also a field of study on the presence of magnetite in humans at <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://tinyurl.com/zd452,">tinyurl.com/zd452,</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> which I've only just begun. <p></p><i></i>

Thanks for pointing out that Sheldrake book, Jeff.<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I recently had occasion to do a small amount of research on the presence of magnetite in birds' brains, googlesearchlink: tinyurl.com/zqqgk, as regards their navigational abilities.<br><br>There is also a field of study on the presence of magnetite in humans at tinyurl.com/zd452, which I've only just begun.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>You might find the book, <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline">Human Navigation and The Sixth Sense</span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> by R. Robin Baker to be of some interest.<br><br>Here's an Amazon review of it, because I'm too lazy to give you my own summary:<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"How We Got To Where We Went To", December 11, 2005<br>Reviewer:        Russell A. Rohde MD "Owl" (West Covina, California USA) - See all my reviews<br>(REAL NAME) <br>"Human Navigation & The Sixth Sense," R.Robin Baker, NY, Simon & Schuster, 1981 ISBN 0-671-44390-, HC 122 pgs., & Append. I/II 6 pg., Ref. 5 pg., Index 5 pg., 9 1/2" x 6 1/2"<br><br>With 3 prior treatises on migration, Dr. Baker (Biology) Univ. Manchester, Eng. proposes a generalized hypothesis of exploratory patterns & migratory mechanisms in Man & animals. He includes his own experiments on students, plus a thorough literature review on migration, a study in part due to prior solicitation by Jrnl. Nature (1873) for "contributions on the mysterious & instinctive sense of direction in Man and other animals, " Charles Darwin having been a donor.<br><br>HN&T6S is a remarkable book - Baker, virtually alone as earnest savant of human navigation, scientifically narrates experiments, displays the raw data & methodology of analyses. He advises "navigation" is directional finding over unfamiliar domain where pilotage is over familiar domain, both (target) goal orientations as opposed to mere orientation (point of a compass). He affirms necessity of species exploration for survival (food & refuge) & lists the 5 major & 3 other human senses (taste, touch, sight, hearing, smell, temperature, balance & time) all conscious, & ponders Man's unconscious 6th sense as magnetic navigation (latter is in Erithacus rubecula (European Robin), Apis mellifera (Honey Bee), Columba livia (Homing pigeon), the last two also using sun's position, etc.<br><br>HN&T6S is crammed with fascinating tidbits from this zoologist - most major bird migrations occur at night which also take note of wind direction; infra-sound (0.1 - 10.0 Hz) generated by ocean waves & mountain ranges may be utilized by migratory birds; that Peromyscus maniculatus (Deermice) & Nocua pronuba (Underwing Moth sp.) orient by stars; the moon's shadow may be used for orientation by birds, sandhoppers & moths, etc.<br><br>Baker notes Humans & animals utilize several reference systems for navigation, there being species distinct hierarchy of those senses within rule of "least navigation" hypothesis, which factors effort & accuracy with magnetic sense likely at the bottom (least conscious, local magnetic anomalies, electrical storms, etc.) He concludes with discourse on Man's genetic inheritance, a studied comparison of male vs. female navigational skills, explication on anthropomorphism & reminder that cerebral sense of location is a human characteristic. An excellent read.<br><br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671443917/ref=ed_oe_p/102-6236801-0463319?%5Fencoding=UTF8">www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671443917/ref=ed_oe_p/102-6236801-0463319?%5Fencoding=UTF8</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> <p><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i></i>

A good book that postulates that psychic experiences only occur when your soul/spirit needs an awakening nudge (and is also full of other great information) is Harpur's "Daimonic Experiences". I felt the author was only off target when he spoke about ritual abuse, but he does tie some other interesting phenomena together. <p></p><i></i>

Jeff,<br>Where you got "avian flu" filed? <p></p><i></i>