David McGowan: Oh Mikey, You Gotta Lotta Splainin' to Do!

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Re: Throwing shit at Ruppert and hoping some of it might sti

Postby Dreams End » Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:49 pm

Good god, man...I simply don't want to cut and paste entire threads on this man. Carpal tunnel got ya down? Okay, I'll go find the link to the original, with Mikey's quotes etc. <br><br>By the way, did you actually read the above article...you know the one that says from Mike's DAD:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>[Pull Quote: "I've never seen anyone as committed to something as Mike has been to this ƒ Imagine what he could have accomplished if he had used the energy and the dedication he has devoted to this over the past five years to further a career" -Ed Ruppert, Mike's father. End Pull Quote]<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>That sound like "years" to you, yet? <br><br>Here's Ruppert's pop redux quote...or one of them:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I advocate an immediate convening of political, economic, spiritual and scientific leaders from all nations to address the issue of Peak Oil (and Gas) and its immediate implications for economic collapse, massive famine and climate destruction (partially as a result of reversion to coal plants which accelerate global warming). This would, scientifically speaking, include immediate steps to arrive at a crash program – agreed to by all nations and in accordance with the highest spiritual and ethical principles – to stop global population growth and to arrive at the best possible and most ethical program of population reduction as a painful choice made by all of humanity.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Anyway, there are probably at least 6 or 7 threads on Ruppert and peak oil in the archives under energy issues. And see McGowan's biting commentary as well starting around newsletter 52. <br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://davesweb.cnchost.com/">davesweb.cnchost.com/</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>Ruppert's fans are quite loyal, I'll give them that. And Bismillah, I'm pretty sure you were around for those other threads, so you know that this particular thread is pretty much shorthand...it would be easier if people sort of "caught up" so we don't repeat too much of the same stuff...so have a look at the energy archive and then we can continue clasting your icon. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Throwing shit at Ruppert and hoping some of it might sti

Postby NewKid » Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:20 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Ruppert and his closest friend at UCLA, Craig Fuller, now a highly placed White House aid to President Regan, had frequently discussed -- as they stood on the sidelines of campus demonstrations - how much more effective they could be if they got inside the system and became part of its inner workings before calling for change.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>what. the. fuck. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Throwing shit at Ruppert and hoping some of it might sti

Postby Dreams End » Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:25 pm

I don't know if your pointed question, NewKid, means you know who Fuller is. During Gulf War One, he worked for the PR firm of Hill and Knowlton...you know "(sob) The Iraqis took the babies out of their incubators (sob)".<br><br>Now he works for the pharmaceutical industry, I think.<br><br>It's not Ruppert's responsibility to keep his former friends out of such dirty deeds, though you would think he'd stop proudly dropping his name.<br><br>Here's a long Ruppert summary about all he found vis the drug dealing and other covert ops. It really does sound sincere to me and does touch on some important stuff. Given the narrative about Terry D'Orsay, it's possible he was being played all along...but somebody got to him with this Peak Oil business....<br><br><br>Here's the article:<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.fromthewilderness.com/ssci.shtml">Ruppert testimony</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>Ruppert also has associations with Catherine Austin Fitts, Catherine served as Assistant Secretary of Housing/Federal Housing Commissioner at HUD in the first Bush Administration. Strangely, despite the association, there's no mention of Peak Oil on her website...which is a company that encourages local and responsible investment.<br><br>Hey, a favorable plug for Palast's latest...almost makes you think she doesn't believe in Peak Oil:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Blood in Beirut: $75.05 A Barrel<br>By Greg Palast (July 26, 2006)<br>Excerpt: This Thursday, Exxon is expected to report the highest second-quarter earnings of any corporation since the days of the Pharoah, $9.9 billion in pure profit collected in just three months — courtesy of an oil shortage caused by pipelines on fire in Iraq, warlord attacks in Nigeria, the lingering effects of the sabotage of Venezuela’s oil system by a 2002 strike… the list could go on.<br><br>Exxon’s brobdingnagian profits simply reflect the cold axiom that oil companies and oil states don’t make their loot by finding oil but by finding trouble. Finding oil increases supply. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Increased supply means decreased price. Whereas finding trouble — wars, coup d’etats, hurricanes, whatever can disrupt supply — raises the price of oil.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><br>Can I just repeat that....found on Catherine Austin Fitts' website:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Increased supply means decreased price. Whereas finding trouble — wars, coup d’etats, hurricanes, whatever can disrupt supply — raises the price of oil.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Economically speaking there is absolutely no difference on prices between decreased supply and the PERCEPTION of decreased supply. <br><br>In any event, there's a little coterie of former Reagan/Bush insiders who are now being gracious enough to give us the real scoop. Wayne "A Seven Days in May Scenario Doesn't Have to be a BAD THING" Madsen is another I think of. <br><br>Exactly how all these folks are connected and what the agenda is...I don't know. I never know. I think I will start making blanket statements about what the real agenda is just to give myself some sense of empowerment. <br><br>My own sense is that the idea is to shape the cultural space of the opposition into manageable and at times irrelevant or even wrongheaded movements. Also, when it comes to things like Peak Oil...well, go back to y2k....usually folks preaching this sort of imminent economic collapse are also involved in peddling gold. But I don't think financial gain is the total reason for all this.<br><br>Personally, looking back at my experience with anti-war activism during the first Gulf War (did anyone remember there WAS a first gulf war?) and I lived in L.A....when you add up all the obvious police agents, the crazy provocateurs, the people offering guns, drugs and pornography to activists (I'm not kidding...stupidly blatant stuff), the Larouchians, Christic etc etc, we , as young people say today when describing total victory over an opponent, "got owned." <br><br>Believe me, many of my own actions, in retrospect are embarrassingly naive...but the basic idea of controlled, infiltrated and manipulated movements is one I have experienced first hand.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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controlling the opposition

Postby wordspeak » Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:45 pm

I've seen it and experienced it in so many ways over years of political activism....<br>Fascinating about Ruppert's guy Fuller there; that's a new one on me.<br>I've met Ruppert and Catherine AF many times (through the 9/11 truth movement), as well as being on listservs with Mike. I can safely say that Ruppert may be the single most pompous person I've ever come across in my life. He's a total prick; everyone agrees.<br>(side note- did he actually get in a fist fight with some guy at the 9/11 conference in Toronto? Someone who was there told me that, and I wouldn't be surprised).<br>Whatever conscious links Ruppert may or may not have with any actual intelligence people, or whatever the Caped Crusader is thinking he's doing in the world, the fact is Ruppert is a *fascist* who supports mass population reduction and asserted very strongly and publicly that Gary Webb was not murdered, taking a high ground on that one without actually discussing the evidence.<br>He's probably just out for fame and an ego-trip, rather than being a knowing government agent. He has made many comments sympathetic towards leftism, such as supporting Hugo Chavez and the '99 WTO protests, and he recommends some good book son his web site. But, meanwhile, he's causing a lot of harm putting about Armageddonist crap about "Peak Oil" and claiming the world's population needs to be reduced by over 80%. "Humanely," of course, always "humanely." <br><br>Catherine AF is a much more pleasant person to be around, I'll say that much. However, she's a capitalist (and she supports Ruppert). She's been discussed on this board before, and Brian Salter of questionsquestions.net wrote I think a good piece exposing a lot of her $ ties. I don't know which side she thinks she's working on- probably the right one- but her micro-economy, "Solari," project is just the type of non-social-class-oriented political change that the system loves to see flourish. I don't think it actually is flourishing, though. I've been watching it for years, and it's barely gone anywhere. Maybe that will change, or maybe Fitts will just keep spouting her same memes for eternity. <p></p><i></i>
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Kicking against the pricks

Postby Bismillah » Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:38 pm

"the fact is Ruppert is a *fascist*" [Unhesitant emphasis in the original.]<br><br>- This is just hysterical and lazily slanderous shite.<br><br>"He's a total prick; everyone agrees."<br><br>- Well, this is not true. But since when were you interested in truths?<br><br>"Fascinating about Ruppert's guy Fuller there; that's a new one on me."<br><br> - Like, amazing. Someone he knew well in his youth turned out different from him. If that ain't <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em> suspicious</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->, I don't know what is. <br><br>"putting about Armageddonist crap about "Peak Oil" "<br><br>- So it's all, like, crazily wrong is it? No evidence required? You just, like, <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>know</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> that oil - first developed commercially in Ohio in 1859 - is going to last, like, forever? How do you know that, exactly? Or are you just, like, guessing?<br><br>"and claiming the world's population needs to be reduced by over 80%."<br><br>- Links? References? You, of course, <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>just know</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> that the world can contain any number of people perfectly well. Just as it's doing now, huh? And the planet will have no problem at all taking on another population of China, plus another population of India, plus another population of the USA, by 2050 - making a NINEFOLD increase in the world population in precisely 200 years.<br><br>The statistics were published just last week. But no doubt you're familiar with them already, being such a deep scholar of the subject. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: controlling the opposition

Postby wintler » Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:42 pm

What a crock. If only it was a new crock.<br><br>"Spreading the evidence that "Peak Oil" is a scam seems to be risky business" Mmmm, thats why the Times, the WaPo, and the NYT have being doing quarterly hatchet jobs on anyone discussing oil depletion for about four years. Even Popular Mechanics has got in on it, doing a hatchet job very reminiscent of the one done on 911 researchers. The science (ala Hubbert) of course emerged in the 1950's, but the groundwork was done by that notorious CIA disinfo artist Eratosthenes, (who first calculated the planets finite circumferance, ~200BC). Check out Harpers recent article to see how the professionals do it via ridicule and ad hominem attack. <br><br>Dave Magowan cherry picks a few CEO data points from the scores of international oil companies. The Pemex exec went because they didn't actually find 1/10th the oil he told the market they did, thats known as fraud. Ditto with Shell, somebody had to carry the can for Shell owning up to its past 'over-exuberance' about its reserves (else execs would have gone to jail via the US Sarbannes Oxely Act). The Yukos story requires far more telling than i can be bothered with, because i know many on this thread are unshakeably sure that TPTB conspiracies are responsible for absolutely everything, including my indigestion and the sun rising. <br><br>This thread is like school kids proving how tough and rebellious they are by wearing their identically branded hats backwards. Oil co. profiteering?!?! Shock, horror, hold the presses Betty, this very old news is new news to some very sheltered souls. <br>I hope y'all get nice warm fuzzies swapping pop culture cliches, I'll check back in when global oil production drops under 80mil.barrels/day, just for laughs. Its the lizards i tell you lol lol <br><br>P.s. Ruppert is the bad-jacket for oil depletion, the bad exemplar put up for the mobs entertainment. He has nearly no respect within peak oil circles and wouldn't rate in the top fifty spokespeople for it. But he talks in cliches not numbers, making him easier reading for innumerate netizens too lazy or weak to examine their assumptions (easier than say Hubbert, Campbell, Leherre, Duncan, Saniford, Fleay, Magoon, Bhaktiari, or Hirsch, all quantitative scientists who publish and are quite willing and able to discuss their work). <p></p><i></i>
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Re: controlling the opposition

Postby Dreams End » Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:54 am

Hubbert will discuss his work? I'd be interested in attending that lecture.<br><br>This thread, of course, is about Ruppert...so strictly speaking of Ruppert, wintler is on the same side as I am. One could argue that Ruppert is to legitimate peak oil as hologram plane theorists are to 9/11...allegedly on the same side, but discrediting the whole field by association...at least in the popular view. <br><br>We won't solve peak oil here...for one simple reason....economically speaking, as I've mentioned, true scarcity and the illusion of true scarcity will have the exact same impact on prices (and profits.) <br><br>This thread, of course, is about Ruppert...so strictly speaking of Ruppert, wintler is on the same side as I am. One could argue that Ruppert is to legitimate peak oil as hologram plane theorists are to 9/11...allegedly on the same side, but discrediting the whole field by association...at least in the popular view. <br><br>We won't solve peak oil here...for one simple reason....economically speaking, as I've mentioned, true scarcity and the illusion of true scarcity will have the exact same impact on prices (and profits.) Actually, I suppose that may not be true. Profits would be eaten by the accelerating costs of drilling post peak. However, the oilcos seem quite fat and happy at the moment.<br><br>But another useful distinction is no-hope peak oil vs. better act now peak oil. Ever read Rense? There are just a lot of people who are hungry for the latest truth that the world is about to end. Sure, they'll embrace peak oil, but also bird flu, Sars, asteroids...whatever. Spend a (short) time at Rense and see the breathless orgy of cataclysmic prophecies.<br><br>If there is no hope, then I'm really not sure why this debate matters at all. Maybe, just maybe, if you are completely off the grid and have a farm somewhere and are armed to the teeth you might survive the worst case scenarios as envisioned by sites such as the charmingly named "die-off.com"<br><br>So, those of you who embrace the end is near view...do tell us how you've planned to survive it. Or why this discussion even matters.<br><br>Others argue that we are near peak but we can mitigate the impact if we all act now. I can respect this position and even if it is wrong, it could have some very good effects, such as reducing the impact of fossil fuels on the environment. <br><br>But it can do harm as well. Recently, someone posted on a local peace group list here in Nashville about how the recent record profits of oil companies were not the oil company's fault. Just the fault of world events causing speculators to bid up the price. Which, as I've mentioned, ignored the very real possibilities that a. oil companies play a role in speculating or manipulating speculation about their industry since it does tend to help boost profits and b. oil companies might...just might....play a role in the same world events that leadActually, I suppose that may not be true. Profits would be eaten by the accelerating costs of drilling post peak. However, the oilcos seem quite fat and happy at the moment.<br><br>But another useful distinction is no-hope peak oil vs. better act now peak oil. Ever read Rense? There are just a lot of people who are hungry for the latest truth that the world is about to end. Sure, they'll embrace peak oil, but also bird flu, Sars, asteroids...whatever. Spend a (short) time at Rense and see the breathless orgy of cataclysmic prophecies.<br><br>If there is no hope, then I'm really not sure why this debate matters at all. Maybe, just maybe, if you are completely off the grid and have a farm somewhere and are armed to the teeth you might survive the worst case scenarios as envisioned by sites such as the charmingly named "die-off.com"<br><br>So, those of you who embrace the end is near view...do tell us how you've planned to survive it. Or why this discussion even matters.<br><br>Others argue that we are near peak but we can mitigate the impact if we all act now. I can respect this position and even if it is wrong, it could have some very good effects, such as reducing the impact of fossil fuels on the environment. <br><br>But it can do harm as well. Recently, someone posted on a local peace group list here in Nashville about how the recent record profits of oil companies were not the oil company's fault. Just the fault of world events causing speculators to bid up the price. Which, as I've mentioned, ignored the very real possibilities that a. oil companies play a role in speculating or manipulating speculation about their industry since it does tend to help boost profits and b. oil companies might...just might....play a role in the same world events that lead speculators to bid up the price. <br><br>War in the Middle East is great for oil profits...make more money on oil already extracted based on the fear that something might happen to disrupt the flow of future oil. <br><br>Disruptions in supply is great for the oil profits as the recent and "sudden" discovery, despite a decade of warnings, that the Alaskan pipeline might need a little maintenance. <br><br><br><br>The tough part is that the oil execs get the same benefit whether peak oil or any other oil disrupting calamity is real or not. So oil companies can make a huge profit when peak is coming or make a huge profit with the expectation of peak is coming. Matt Simmons, for example, makes his money by advising people who invest in the oil business. So if he knows that peak is coming...they make a killing. Or, if he and others can sell the idea of peak...they make a killing (though less of one until and unless the idea of peak starts to go mainstream...woops, guess it has.)<br><br>Meanwhile, I give up debating the actual merits of peak oil theory. I see contradictory data all the time...even in non peak related articles. Chavez said recently, for example, that they have lots of oil as long as the price stays at or above the curren level per barrel, making it feasible to extract this oil. I assume that the best data is very confidential. If there is suspicion that Dodgers stadium is on top of the biggest oil field ever found, I doubt we'd hear about it till all the games were played to keep the excess supply from driving down profits. I don't know much about the oil bidness, but if world events unfold to drastically LOWER the price of oil, and the price on current oil is set by speculating on oil not yet extracted, then it would be disastrous for news of major finds to leak out. That's not even conspiracy theory, that's just economics.<br><br>But I would challenge the peakers to do what I've not seen much of and that's let us know if there is anything that can be done. Those who say "no" should answer then why should we even worry. <br><br>It is convenient, isn't it, that if people think that all the world's ills are based on geology and not the deliberate choices by heardhearted corporate execs, they will give those execs a pass. <br><br>Last I heard, the current prices were based on limited REFINING capacity...which reminded me of Enron and the taking of various plants off the grid for repairs in order to gouge grandma. <br><br>Generally, governments act for the good of a fairly slender sector of the economy...the well off, of course. But they need many of the rest of us to do the work (just not as MANY of us as there are at the moment) so real doomsday scenarios with some substance behind them would be met by scrambling in various ways to head off doomsday. <br><br>Don't be too hard on this post...I just took two benadryl and they kicked in part way through so I'm pretty loopy. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=dreamsend@rigorousintuition>Dreams End</A> at: 8/14/06 12:10 am<br></i>
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Re: i heard oil sizzling

Postby Gouda » Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:29 am

(Benadryl. Reminds me of the only time I got caught shoplifting. It was Benadryl.) <br><br>DE, you need to check into a 4-star Ayurveda retreat to clear up the cold/allergy. <br><br>I daresay, once the population is culled to a few several hundred million or so, this may be what the blissful survivors can look forward to:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://travel2.nytimes.com/2006/08/13/travel/13indiaa.html?pagewanted=print">travel2.nytimes.com/2006/...nted=print</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>"In the Land of Four-Star Asceticism"<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>“Please sit,” she said prayerfully. Soon, thick warm sesame oil infused with medicinal herbs began to permeate my meager muslin thong. She breathed heavily, karate-chopping the oil with the edges of her hands. She gently pummeled me with poultices, hot bundles of herbs resembling bouquets garnis. In the background, I heard oil sizzling. I felt a strange compulsion to go fry myself in a wok.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> Mmmm, sizzling oil. <br><br>***<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>On edit: can't help but highlight this bit: </em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I actually had a vision of Dick Cheney when I finally experienced sirodhara, a signature ayurvedic treatment that Dr. Sreelatha and others had cautioned could lead to emotional melt-down. Warm oil is released above you in a steady pendulum stream, your forehead a windshield and the oil, the wiper.<br><br>Feelings of deep panic were eventually supplanted by one of utter defenselessness in which, I was certain, all dark information about my past could be gleaned. Sirodhara struck me as an immensely powerful tool for extracting secrets.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> This post may not be as far off topic as it would seem... <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gouda@rigorousintuition>Gouda</A> at: 8/14/06 4:13 am<br></i>
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Ruppert, Peak Oil and Delmert Michael Vreeland.......

Postby xsic bastardx » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:56 am

<br> <br><br> <br><br> I happend on to Mike Ruppert early on in my own personal quest for some kind of light into what happend on Spetmeber the 11th 2001. I remember first reading the story of Mike Ruppert and Vreeland, the sealed note "Let one happen stop the rest" yadda, yadda, yadda.<br><br> I got totally enraptured with this guy cause he seemed like the "Do good/Feel Good" guy that always was on the right side of the fence but landed on the wrong side with the wrong people. <br><br> In late summer of 2004 I saw Ruppert speak at the staunch Republican Hang out the Washignton Square Sports Club in SF I watched in amazement as he spoke on the War Games on 9/11 and the in's and out's of his views. I was awe struck from the look on some of the suits in attendence. He set them on thier ear and it was great to watch.<br><br> I continued to be a reader of his and even stumbled unto what in my opinion is one of the most credible arguments to present MIHOP, Sibel Edmonds. Even reading about Vreeland made me drool with the action of a adventure novel.<br><br> Then a few things happend.<br><br><br> !st I finally got to read "Crossing the Rubicon", whihc by all accounts is still a great read. About halfway through though I found it hard to continue to read, maybe because there wasn't THAT much specifically on the attacks 9/11, and more importnaly to me, the CD of the WTC complex. There was an element of Bullshit that I never have been able to put my finger on in that book. Almose like the words are TOO much of a stroy.....almost as bad as "The 9/11 Commission Report". I ahve always been leary of people who claim to know too much.<br><br> I am even worrying now about Alex Jones, but that's for another thread.<br><br> Then I heard a lecture from Ruppert talking about how he wasn't going to talk about 9/11 anymore cause "That Elephant had already passed us and it was time to focus on the Elephants coming at us"....<br><br> This really set my alarm bells off. Why was he taking this stand point? I mean, unless we TRY and understand the muti-headed hydra that was Operation 9/11 we won't EVER be able to even imagine or defend ourselves and our minds from what they will do next.<br><br> Again, He NEVER talked about CD which baffles me.<br><br><br> Gary Webb was murdered. The stand point he took reeks for me of being an inside man.<br><br> which led me to this..........<br><br><br> I fully believe in Mike Vreeland's story and I think Mike Ruppert was put on him, or Vreeland on Ruppert, so Ruppert could keep tabs on him for who ever Ruppert is working for/with and possibly to discredit him also......sounds crazy.....so does Skyscrapers falling from Fire......<br><br><br> There's something fishy about Ruppert, like wrotten fish.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Ruppert, Peak Oil and Delmert Michael Vreeland.......

Postby eroeoplier » Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:20 am

I used to regulary check out ftw sic bastard, and you've reminded me why i stopped - "the opportunity for legally addressing the events of 9/11 passed when Bush got his 2nd term" (not direct quote) - what's with that? Fear of death, or worse, I presume.<br><br>Got to play the ball, not the man. The game continues on without Ruppert. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Ruppert, Peak Oil and Delmert Michael Vreeland.......

Postby Dreams End » Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:05 am

Okay, you brought up shoplifting and this is so far off topic but....<br><br>Some 10 years ago I met a Canadian woman visiting LA. We decided to go travel up the coast awhile together. I was more impulsive then.<br><br>Due to a certain birth control method, she got a yeast infection...and by this time we were flat busted broke. So, for the first and only time in my life, I decided to shoplift. Shoplifting medicine, in my view, is as moral as breathing, but that's another story.<br><br>Anyway, we go to the grocery and up to the section of boxes containing suppositories, 7 doses in a box. My brilliant plan: open box, remove plastic row of 7 doses and hide in pants, close box and replace.<br><br>so I open a box...it's already empty.<br><br>I open a SECOND box...it TOO is empty. <br><br>I had to open four boxes before I found one that contained medicine. That stuff is expensive and I was certainly not the first to "liberate it" from the store.<br><br>Peak Suppositories? could be...... <p></p><i></i>
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Re: David McGowan: Oh Mikey, You Gotta Lotta Splainin' to Do

Postby wordspeak » Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:27 pm

Just because the conversation has been had so many times here, can we not have another "Peak Oil" debate. I think Dave Mcgowan and Walt Sheasby wrote a lot of excellent stuff about "Peak Oil," and it's on Mcgowan's web site. If you haven't read it please do, if you're going to have this conversation. People are free to believe the "Peak Oil" line if they want, that there is an imminent oil shortage that no combination of alternative energies could even solve, as is the thesis of Richard Heinberg's "The Party's Over" and the rest of the prominent "Peak Oil" material. From that you can believe in the need for population reduction/eugenics, and in a "community lifeboats" strategy, as Heinberg calls it, rather than a political revolutionary one, because that's where the "Peak Oil" authors lead you. But at least hear the other perspective. I've heard the "Peak Oil" one a million times over (it's the dominant one in the circles I hang out in), and I think it's a propaganda lie to cover for the economic warfare of rising gas prices and to de-politicize people, to put us into a head-for-the-hills-mindset. That's certainly been *its effect*.<br>I've heard Mike Ruppert say the world's population should be reduced to one billion people, but since I don't have it in print maybe I shouldn't have said it. He endorses "population reduction" in a letter to Mcgowan here<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr54.html">www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr54.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br>And here are Mcgowan's other "Peak Oil" pieces:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr52.html">www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr52.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr53.html">www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr53.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr55.html">www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr55.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr56.html">www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr56.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr64.html">www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr64.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr66.html">www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr66.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr70.html">www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr70.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr73.html">www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr73.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr74.html">www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr74.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Ruppert's not respected by the more prominent "Peak Oil"'ers? And what a lovely crowd it is- people like Matt Simmons, a Bush/Cheney energy advisor, and Richard Heinberg, who supports white supremacists.<br><br>Bismallah, I meant that virtually everyone who has dealt with Ruppert thinks he's an arrogant prick, and it's true. though maybe besides the point... I thought it was relevant to laying out what we know about Mike Ruppert.<br>Wintler, "Peak Oil," in name or implication, is the much more dominant idea in the mainstream media than anti-Peak Oil. There have been tons of "End of Oil" articles, and it's become a dominant belief among progressive activists.<br><br>The real threat to the powers that be is that people will organize and take political power. Spreading "Armageddonism" is a great way to get people thinking against mass political change and towards individual survival. It has a de-politicizing effect. It's not an abstraction; it's what's happening in real time. And Ruppert is a stooge for it. I used to be a "Ruppertarian," too, but not anymore.<br><br>p.s. Sorry to say let's not have a long debate and then write a bunch, but what can I say. I just don't want to have the exact same conversations as have happened in the past. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: David McGowan: Oh Mikey, You Gotta Lotta Splainin' to Do

Postby Dreams End » Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:38 pm

wordspeak...actually, a side conversation of interest to me would be the development of the peak oil inroads into the progressive community up there, because it just started down here. I'm going to post the Palast article in the other P.O thread on our local newsgroup but I'd be interested in how this has played out in other areas. <br><br>The idea that there is a material condition which makes political/economic reform impossible or irrelevant is certainly one that would deflate the tires of more progressive movements. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: David McGowan: Oh Mikey, You Gotta Lotta Splainin' to Do

Postby wordspeak » Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:06 pm

"The idea that there is a material condition which makes political/economic reform impossible or irrelevant is certainly one that would deflate the tires of more progressive movements."<br><br>...is really well said.<br><br>I'm in western Massachusetts, and "Peak Oil" is absolutely a dominant belief. It seems to be that way in all or most upper-class college towns. I've heard from friends in places such as Santa Cruz, CA, Moscow, Idaho, and Eugene, Oregon that it's very dominant and totally unchallenged, but I can speak from here....<br>What's strange (or something) to me is that there's no virtually challenge to the "Peak Oil" meme here. There's only some now because I've forced the issue. A certain group of "Peak Oil" people are the die-hards, but most just repeat the term and accept most or all of what it means without ever thinking twice. A lot of times if I even challenge it at all it's the first time they've ever considered it at any level besides thoughtless acceptance.<br>The actual "Peak Oil" activists have a really strong presence. They've even met with the mayor and shown her the film "The End of Suburbia" and gotten her on board, they tell me, so that our (upper-class) city will be Peak-prepared. <br>I've probably had the exact same conversation with about fifty friends or acquaintances about "Peak Oil." I should start taping them. I've practically lost friends over this many times; it's really amazing (never permanently, though, fortunately).<br>I've organized two community forums on "Peak Oil," one small one with a dozen people and one bigger one with about sixty. I think a lot of good came out of both of them. <br>The effect of the "Peak Oil" meme around here is that it's de-politicized people, and it's made them blame other Americans for political problems. We drive too much, so we are the problem. What about that pointed hatred of Bush and capitalism and the WTO, IMF, and World Bank that we were all talking about a few years ago? It's still there for Bush, but that more radical political energy has fallen wayside to "solutions" like riding your bike everywhere. I've had so many conversations with intelligent non-fascist people just trying to convince them that they have more political responsibility than riding their bikes instead of driving, and that not everyone can ride his or her bike everywhere, and, you know, it shouldn't really be the issue. It's gotten so that I look forward to talking to normal, working-class non-counter-culture people who drive to work every day. <br>The dominance of the "Peak Oil" meme has largely changed the conversation in this community. It's taken social class out of political conversations, certainly out of the forefront, but people haven't even noticed. It's pretty bizarre. <br>Richard Heinberg came here and spoke, and three hundred people showed up to see him. I asked him about population reduction, and he said nature is going to do it anyway, so man doesn't need to. I didn't see anyone flinch.<br>It's just like within a year it became what everyone was talking about.<br><br>The other thing I've seen that's especially disturbing is white supremacistsusing the "Peak Oil" meme to connect with progressives and slowly start putting in their message. This was happening on a listserv I was on, until I called it out and the guy disappeared. So "Peak Oil" is definitely a right/left unifying issue, but not in a good way. And it shouldn't be surprising, right?, seeing as Heinberg openly endorsed white supremacists such as Virginia Abernathy, and no one blinks. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: David McGowan: Oh Mikey, You Gotta Lotta Splainin' to Do

Postby wintler » Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:37 pm

wordspeak said: "Peak Oil," in name or implication, is the much more dominant idea in the mainstream media than anti-Peak Oil. There have been tons of "End of Oil" articles, and it's become a dominant belief among progressive activists.<br><br>I disagree. In the last twelve months there have been an increasing number of articles using the phrase (whoop-de-doo), many of which ridicule, post-date, or otherwise minimise the issue. I challenge you to find a mainstream media article before 2004 that even does that. Current artcles go nowhere to helping people understand the significance of the issue, how to engage with it, or what kind of choices we are making (no surprise, thats MSM SOP). <br><br>Your generalisations about the activities and agenda's of the very diverse people who take oil seriously are risable, but i'm trying to not be reactionary. If you prefer the unsubstantiated armchair opinions of that reknowned polymath Dave Mcgowan, feel free. <p></p><i></i>
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