UK counter-terrorism op foils aircraft explosion plot

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Re: UK counter-terrorism op foils aircraft explosion plot

Postby sunny » Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:23 pm

So, if the plot was <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>foiled</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->, why was the terror alert <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>raised</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->?<br><br>That in itself tells me everything I need to know. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: UK counter-terrorism op foils aircraft explosion plot

Postby HMKGrey » Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:19 pm

Bang on Sunny. <br><br>And as a colleague here just asked: if they'd been following this plot for months then why are we only now getting restrictions on carry on items? If they knew the plot and the plotters, one would assume they knew their methodology. And if they knew that, then how are they able to assume <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>these are the only plotters using that methodology?</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br>Isn't it possible there were/are other groups that they didn't know about? Perhaps one that planned to go last week sometime? <br><br>Come on English people and press! You can do better than swallow this. After the 7/7 inconsistencies and the Ricin plot falling over you should be all over this one. <p></p><i></i>
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Careful...

Postby Bismillah » Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:39 pm

There's an excellent article about this on a British website - don't be put off by the title:<br><br>----------------------<br><br>Thursday, 10 August 2006<br><br>Don't let your tin foil hat get too tight.<br><br>The following quote is probably representative of a significant portion of the internet reaction to today's bomb plot story.<br><br>“Unable to window dress the obvious failure to eradicate growing resistance in Lebanon, Iraq, and Afghanistan—even with the mighty propaganda power of a complaisant media—the neocon intelligence apparatus has staged yet another terrorist event, or would be terrorist event.” <br><br>I'm not after anyone in particular here so I'm not going to provide a link unless anyone asks. In a couple of days Google will satisfy your curiosity anyway.<br><br>So let's get down to business with a few obligatory statements that I probably have to make in the same way that anyone in the mainstream has to start with a condemnation of such plots before going on to make even the most minute of criticisms of official doctrine.<br><br>Firstly, I am entirely open to the possibility that this alleged plot is a fabrication along the lines discussed above. It is damned suspicious timing (although more of that in a moment). Secondly, I do have deep suspicions about several of the terror attacks of recent years, doubts that become positively cavernous when it comes to September 11th. Thirdly, yes I do know what the phrase cui bono means.<br><br>But here's my problem. It is an accepted plank of the anti-war movement's argument that actions do have consequences and that policies do have repercussions. Britain and the UK are hated by so many, so we argue, because of our long-standing policies in the Middle East. These pre-date September 11 by fifty years or more (at least) and concern western policy regarding energy resources, support for dictators and, of course, Israel. It is not a tide of unreconcilable, inplacable Islamist lunatics that we face but a handful who feed on the genuine grievances of the masses (and all manner of buried official reports and declassified assessments support this). 'Drain the swamp,' we cry. 'End the oppression' and those few genuine boggle-eyed Caliphateers will wither into impotent obscurity. And I sincerely believe we are right.<br><br>So why is the case that, while accepting this general principle that our policies have bred murderous rage and resentment, the first reaction of so many to events such as today's is immediately to assume governmental conspiracy (CIA, MI6, Mossad, Neocons, whatever)? Armchair Generals are bad enough and many of us have had to sit across a pub table from some stocky dullard who thinks a shelf groaning with Andy McNab or Tom Clancy makes him James Bond's best mate. But the left seems to breed its own kind of pub bore equivalent. The guy (and it usually is a guy) who feels able to pronounce immediately that the latest event 'definitely' looks wrong, suspicious, or is 'clearly' a false flag operation. I've lost count of the number of times, after an atrocity or an 'atrocity prevented', some blogger or poster to board or box has sat back, filled their pipe and said sagely, 'looks like psy-ops to me'. No evidence is required and challenges are met with accusations of naivete and mental subservience to The Man, or simply a self-satisfied cui bono? - as if responding in Latin is too enigmatically clever not to be right. <br><br>'Who benefits?', it may surprise some people to learn, is a principle of enquiry, not an argument. Blair and Bush can use both real or falsified atrocities to strip us further of our civil liberties and advance their foreign policy. You can't use the principle to distinguish between real and fake with any reliability. In fact, in such generalised instances as these, the principle has virtually zero analytical value since, for instance, the political left also has benefited from the spurious 'war on terror'. Noam Chomsky's book sales shot up following September 11th; makes you wonder...<br><br>Nor is the timing argument especially useful. Yes, the timing of today's little event could be construed as convenient. But it would have been convenient two weeks ago. Come to that, it would have been two months or two years ago. In the present climate in particular, it's virtually an unfalsifiable argument to say that the timing makes a bombing or averted bombing suspicious. Yes, our leaders do have things they want to distract us from, but with the present two in particular when wouldn't that be the case? There's also the stronger version of the argument, that the event is covering up something else we don't know about and we don't know about it because they're covering it up.<br><br>Today's incident may very well be a con or, at the very least, heavily stage-managed for propaganda value. I'm not ruling that out for a second but neither am I going to assert it immediately. If there's an accumulation of evidence and discrepancies then I may nail my colours to the mast and holler out in true Victor Meldrew style. But at the moment there's no evidence of anything yet -only suspicions based on past form: and past form is only ever suggestive -otherwise we'd allow courts to convict on records and not cases.<br><br>I'm not calling for uncritical belief in government spin but nor should we uncritically adopt the polar opposite position that it's all lies, lies, lies. How can we hold to the position that our policies have produced misery, oppression and rage if we're not also willing to entertain the possibility -the likelihood even – that misguided people may actually act upon that? Is it some form of cognitative dissonance? Knee-jerk reactions like the one above do nothing for the real left's credibility and everything to help the faux left convince people that we have our tin foil hats on too tight.<br><br>To reiterate, I am not discounting the possibility that today might have been fabricated or massively embellished for PR purposes. What I am doing is admitting that I do not know -and I doubt there's anyone else banging away at the keyboard tonight who does. Wait and watch.<br><br>So let's keep an open mind by all means. But don't let your brains fall out.<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://manyangrygerbils.typepad.com/many_angry_gerbils/2006/08/dont_let_your_t.html">manyangrygerbils.typepad....our_t.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>-----------------------------------------<br><br>- Also discussed here:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://members.boardhost.com/DT3rd/index.html">members.boardhost.com/DT3rd/index.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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This needs repeating,

Postby Rigorous Intuition » Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:46 pm

and shouting:<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>So, if the plot was foiled, why was the terror alert raised?<br><br>That in itself tells me everything I need to know.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>Thanks, sunny. <p></p><i></i>
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Sunny's question

Postby Bismillah » Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:03 pm

Somewhere in the news today - allegedly - they were saying that the reason the alerts were issued <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>today</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> is as follows: <br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>The intelligence services lost track of a couple of suspects and therefore had to move fast, in case those vanished suspects were heading for an airport earlier than anticipated. Hence the Red Alert. The known suspects were arrested immediately, and the fugitive terrorists are now being hunted down.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br>I'm certainly not saying that I know this is true (and I haven't even been able to locate the alleged news report), but I don't find the claim easy to rebut. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=bismillah@rigorousintuition>Bismillah</A> at: 8/10/06 8:10 pm<br></i>
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Re: Sunny's question

Postby chiggerbit » Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:16 pm

I try to remember that conspiracy theorists can be just as obsessed as the Christo-fascist patriots. So I do keep in mind that the reason that I have had a hard time with the controlled demolition theory was a result of the "survivalists" (sorry, don't know what else to call them) harping about controlled demolition with the Oklahoma City bombing, and it really put me off to see them start right out on 9/11. Trying to keep an open mind either way. We need to consider the possibility that some of these events are not false flag, but useful nevertheless to the Cheneys of the world.<br><br>However, even if the event was real, the timing of the revelation may have been manipulated. Consider how many times the administration has revealed secret operations in other countries-- against their wishes--for political gain for the moment due to some bad press about something else in order to gain some good political press. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chiggerbit@rigorousintuition>chiggerbit</A> at: 8/10/06 8:24 pm<br></i>
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Re: Sunny's question

Postby Bismillah » Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:38 pm

A possible answer to my own question about Sunny's question: If all of the suspects were known to the police, then they also knew all of their names. Why were those names not being communicated to airport security while the investigation was in its later stages? Then, even if some of them "vanished" and headed off to the airport early, they would immediately have been prevented from boarding the planes. Their names would have turned up on the no-fly list, and they would have been arrested. Simple. <br><br>I'm playing Devil's Advocate here. And it strikes me that the spooks and the cops will simply say: "We had good operational and security reasons for keeping our investigation very tightly controlled. There were some worries that airport security might have been compromised."<br><br>Etcetera. And so it goes on.<br><br>But I'm just brainstorming here. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Sunny's question

Postby bvonahsen » Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:58 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Why were those names not being communicated to airport security while the investigation was in its later stages? Then, even if some of them "vanished" and headed off to the airport early, they would immediately have been prevented from boarding the planes.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>Because they don't want them suddenly turning up in a hovel in some remote country saying "I've been here all the time". Tends to be a little embarrassing. They learned from their mistakes made on 9/11.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Sunny's question

Postby HMKGrey » Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:10 am

Exactly right Bismillah. The more I think about it, the more I'm puzzled. <br><br>Sunny's point about the <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>foiled</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> attack and the <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>raised</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> security is worthy of it's own t-shirt(!) and I have to ask why, if they'd been monitoring this for months, didn't they raise security last week? The week before? Last month? <br><br>It doesn't add up. <br><br>As for the bad guys slipping through the net, I heard that too. But you're right - again it falls over pretty quick. I suppose you could make the 'take no chances' argument but you'd think that in those months of monitoring and so on they'd have got the guys' names... pass port numbers, photo fit pictures. etc. It seems to me that the 'terrorists on the loose' strand is just more booga-booga. <br><br>And still (SHOUTING) any half sensible terrorist organization knows full well that most checked baggage is not scanned and practically zero connecting baggage... Given that this loophole was used 20 years ago to bring down Pan Am 103, don't you think that any real terrorists would be exploiting it by now? <br><br>But then, the government would be damned to Hell for letting one of those through - especially after 20 years. And so, unsurprisngly, there's not even been a scare in that department.<br><br>I guess it doesn't make for such good TV. <br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Sunny's question

Postby chiggerbit » Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:19 am

Has anybody credible claimed that those missing Egyptian students have anything to do with this event? <p></p><i></i>
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Egyptian students

Postby sunny » Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:22 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Has anybody credible claimed that those missing Egyptian students have anything to do with this event?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>I get the feeling those poor kids are in a detention camp somewhere.<br><br>Doesn't preclude them from being used as patsies, tho. In fact, it makes it damned convenient. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sunny@rigorousintuition>sunny</A> at: 8/10/06 10:24 pm<br></i>
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Re: UK counter-terrorism op foils aircraft explosion plot

Postby bvonahsen » Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:23 am

<!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.boingboing.net/2006/08/10/if_the_liquid_could_.html"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>If the liquid could be explosive, why are you dumping it in a crowd?</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>Brilliant!<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.xopl.com/" target="top"><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:blue;">xopl</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>So CNN is reporting: "Because the plot involved taking liquid explosives aboard planes in carry-ons, passengers at all U.S. and British airports, and those boarding U.S.-bound flights at other international airports, are banned from taking any liquids onto planes." <br>And then they have the photo of the TSA guy dumping a tub of confiscated possibly explosive liquids into a garbage can in a crowd of people. <br><br>Figure that shit out for me.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.toothopolis.com/" target="top"><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:blue;">Gabe</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And check out <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060810/NEWS01/60810001"><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:blue;">this article</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> from Asheville, NC. "Maya Leoni, who is held by Angela Perez, cries as her mother, A.J. Leoni, pours the last of her drink into the receptacle while in line for the security checkpoint at the Asheville Regional Airport." <br>POUR IT INTO A RECEPTACLE? Don't you think that some of these potentially explosive liquids might be more dangerous when, I don't know, mixed in a big vat in the middle of an airport? <br><br>Christ, why don't they just have people put their liquids into a big bonfire?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: UK counter-terrorism op foils aircraft explosion plot

Postby chiggerbit » Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:04 am

<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Liquid_explosives_readily_available_paper_to_0810.html">www.rawstory.com/news/200..._0810.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>"....British authorities have not said what explosive the terror suspects planned to use, but a memo sent out Thursday morning by US law enforcement officials indicated that it contained the chemical peroxide. One explosive used by suicide bombers in Israel and shoe bomber Richard Reid is made with relatively common liquids, including hydrogen peroxide. Called TATP, or triacetone triperoxide, it would be difficult to make on board a plane, though, because the terrorist would have needed to keep it cold with ice, Oxley said. In Reid's case, he mixed the explosive before he boarded the plane, turning it into a solid, then hid it in his shoes."<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: UK counter-terrorism op foils aircraft explosion plot

Postby HMKGrey » Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:17 am

Bvonashen: Great points. I love it. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :lol --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: UK counter-terrorism op foils aircraft explosion plot

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:38 am

Has any 'mainstream media' mentioned that this sounds like the foiled 1995 Bojinka plot against multiple planes at once? <br><br>Complete with a big trial back when Clinton was running for re-election in 1996?<br>No? Hmm...<br>My, my-the similarities. <br><br>Or is this a decoy threat to displace Bojinka in the public's memory (not a difficult task) to keep the cover story that "we couldn't have known" about jets crashed into buildings on 9/11?<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/dia-bojinka.htm">www.thememoryhole.org/911...ojinka.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.cnn.com/US/9605/12/terror.plot">www.cnn.com/US/9605/12/terror.plot</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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