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Re: Thank You!

Postby israelirealities » Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:16 am

Oh, no brave soul, believe you me...fear has been the only permanent and decisive companion in my entire life. (if they don't get you, fear does...).I sometime think that my reckless bravery is a form of fear based response...if you know what i mean. Perhaps if i had a soul on earth to share my experiences with, I would not feel compelled to share it with the entire - conveniently anonymous- cyberspace. But having already written that, I hope it works to help others whose lives are messed up as a result of these complex atrocities. What you are saying about people you know, sounds interesting, and i understand why you can't say much more. I know of one or two who came here from the USA, both cases I know of had quite a bad ending here, in two different ways. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Thank You!

Postby Seventhsonjr » Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:02 pm

I think once again it is important to remember what Hannah Arendt wrote in "Eichmann in Jerusalem": that those who resisted or went underground (joined the resistance" had a 50% survival rate whereas those who cooperated and got on the trains to Auschwitz, etc., hoping to survive, had a 10% survival rate. This information is critical for all of us. Yes. 50% survival rate is not great --- but it is much better than a 10% survival rate.<br><br>When I was in Israel, when it was relatively peaceful - before Sharon "went to the Mount" with 1000 troops, starting the current round of chaos and death (as I am certain it was intended to do to consolidate his power and to get the sympathy of the Israelis, who I know from experience are truly and honestly offended (as I was) about the restrictions on the use of the Mount -- I was harangued and forbidden from praying, in direct contradication of the first verse of the Quran, from praying in the "Holy of Holies", the cave of the prophets where Mohammed is said to have met with Moses and Jesus and Abraham and other prophets on his night ride with the Angel Gabriel - the cave inside the Holy Mount carved into Abraham's Rock, in the Haram Al Sharif (the Dome of the Rock - or Holy Sanctuary)) ---<br><br>When I was there it was clear from talking to many, especially the young and the young soldiers or those just finished with their service, that the entire society is one of fear based in part on the Holocaust, global antiSemitism, and a pervasive psychological state of what seemed to me, who woirks with PTSD clients, to be a national Post Traumatic Stress condition.<br><br>One young "graduated" soldier (just finished his mandatory service) said that he was sick of hearing about the Holocaust, that all he wanted to do wasd leave Israel, go to Europe or America, and live a "normal" life. I sensed this from many young people, who feel that persecuted mindset was for the "old people" and they wanted not to have to endure it. It was truly sad. These young men and women , mostly 18 and 19 year olds and in their young twenties, were esceedingly kind and gracious to me as the son of a nonJewish rescuer during the Holocaust -- and I could tell they were a little envious that I was an American and could leave. And they were bluntly honest. Consummate soldiers and professionals, most of them, they took the security seriously and were loyal Israelis -- but they saw the truth and the agony of their own situation.<br><br>PTSD often leads to severe depression, suffering, and, of course, denial. The fear is real.<br><br>But your voice is courageous. There is wisdom in facing those fears, recognixzing them, - it would be foolhardy to do otherwise --- but it is very brave and courageous to be so truthful in the face of so much denial and manipualtion by the powers that be who ARE Americans, for the most part.<br><br>I had a "meeting" (really a tour) of the foreign ministry and the top aid who met with us, an aid to Natanyahu who was Prime Minsiter and foreign minister at the time, was an American who had moved to Israel.<br><br>Many of the settlers are the same - Americans. Zealots. And the puppeteers are mostly Americans - and mostly NOT Jews, altho there are the patrons of the madness and true as well.<br><br><br>Anyway, I always say that "Truth is the Comforter" even when times are exceptionally traumatic and fearful. This is a quote from the Rabbi Jesus, a Hillelian, And it rings true for me.<br><br>I assume and believe that this "Truth" is the knowledge that "righteous acts", acts of love and sacrifice, will endow one with a promise of joy - even in the most painful of sorrows - and give one the comfort of the knowledge that one did not succumb to the beast of hatred and vileness.<br><br>Keep that faith. It is a universal one. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Thank You!

Postby israelirealities » Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:30 pm

Senenthson, I used to be a PTSD person, until I realized that this too as an American conceptualization of political realities. The term PTSD as we know it now, does make it easier in terms of communication to relay a complex observation using a brief code name. <br>I agree with you that the Israeli society and many individuals are victims of some huge disaster or major shocking events - holocaust, immigration (refugees), wars, terror acts, violent acts, etc. However, politics is always more complex and has many simultaneous inputs that create the conditions of the present. <br>Hanna Arendt analysed the ZIonist ideology and her insights are guiding me ever since I found her books (while in the USA, of course). She would not use psychological terms to describe a political situation. Indeed, the notion of a "refugee state" is problematic, and failing as she predicted. Because, certainly if the world wished the Jews away, attacking all of them in a "Jewish State" would even make it easier (even if there are nuclear bombs). But worse than that, the quality of life in a Zionist state, makes the whole survival enterprise questionable. <br>I met Armenian immigrants in the USA who said that their ancestors fought for an indpendent Armenian state, following the Turk massace/genocide of Armenians. After the "dream" came true, and the new state turned out to be quite a shitty place, not many Armenian refugees wanted to live there. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Thank You!

Postby Seventhsonjr » Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:31 pm

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Seventhson, I used to be a PTSD person, until I realized that <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline">this too as an American conceptualization of political realities</span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END-->. The term PTSD as we know it now, does make it easier in terms of communication to relay a complex observation using a brief code name. <br>I agree with you that the Israeli society and many individuals are victims of some huge disaster or major shocking events - holocaust, immigration (refugees), wars, terror acts, violent acts, etc. However, politics is always more complex and has many simultaneous inputs that create the conditions of the present. <br>Hanna Arendt analysed the ZIonist ideology and her insights are guiding me ever since I found her books (while in the USA, of course). She would not use psychological terms to describe a political situation</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>I think that my observation, as an American who works in the field where PTSD is rampant (advocacy for the poor, abused children, etc.), is indeed an observation of a complex condition with many factors.<br><br>From your posts, it seems as if there is almost what appears to be a "conditioning" of "acceptance" of the abuse which is just beginning to emerge in the United States.<br><br>What I mean is that politics plays a role in conditioning people in the same way that an abusive husband or child abuser "conditions" the victim to accept their abuse. However in the case of Israel - their is an outside perpetrator (global antiSemitism, Arabs, Palestinians) upon whom the governemtn can blame all the abuse and deflect attention away from its own abuses. Similar things are happening in the US where the Bush administration has effectively used antiArab sentiment, anti-Americanism in Europe or elsewhere, and even blaming "global Jewry" or Israel, for its problems - as the "boogeymen" we must fear.<br><br>I think my perspective, though, is not so much an American one as an internationalist kind. I think the PTSD mindset , or rather the manipualtion of it by political forces, is EXACTLY the key - as you point out, to understanding how that perception is used to manipulate us here in the US and there in Israel. I live close enough to NYC to SMELL the twin towers when they were burning and see the smokey black haze. I went to the site myself and walked in its dust, the dust of these tragic lives. This had a post traumatic stress impact on me and my family seriously (even if we hadn't been close enough to smell and see it) <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Thank You!

Postby israelirealities » Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:26 am

Yes, I agree. <br>Its just that I have a strong resistance now to psychologizing too much, when things are actually more simple and more complex at the same time. For instance, if you have those people who torture children in order to create DID and control them, we can view it on the level of the mechanics (PTSD etc.) or on a political level - enslavement, for instance or other forms of known abuse of power and crimes. If we focus on PTSDizing it, we do not focus on political means of dealing with power, rather we leave it intact and deal with the pacification of the crime, or with some sort of bourgeois response to a private condition. It keeps the problem on an individual basis, rather than taking it into the political sphere. THis is the American aspect of it. It goes :"we will turn children into sexual slaves" (for instance) and then we will devise a medicine (jobs and money for pharma people, and same power people) and treatment (again, more money to same social class and inculcation of same values that allow us to do it), to make these children feel better about their past, or even forget it. I am exaggerating, for the sake of the argument. Or, we will send soldiers to perform crimes for our greed looting, and then devise drugs and treatment to make their conscience numb, or wipe it out by drugs, so they cope with it...etc. this is the larger objection I have.<br>On a personal level, I met too many psychologists who knew a lot of bad stuff (they get all the juicy info...) and then play the role of "Doubling", namely, they split their ethics in a way that allows them to gain money from the abuses, and yet sort of provide a pacifier and "support' for the victims, so they don't feel useless. THis is a social role they perform for the power structures, to contain time bombs and potential revolutions or upheavals. I lost my trust in the ethics of most psychologists. I don't think they are bad people, au contraire, but the methodology they swallow in school, works them out this way. They start believing the theories, because it gives them a false sense of power over people. The "western shrinkage" is an important bourgeois agent for the powers that be. Whereas, if those cases became a political or even spiritual issue, this perhaps would have forced change on a social level to eradicate forms of abuse.<br>I spoke about it with a friend who is now completing his internship in clinical psychology. He agrees, but he is saying that I am an extremist and that abuse of power has always existed, and he can only "mediate" between the "nazis" and the disempowered victims. He can advocate and sometimes get one or two victims off the hook, but cannot change the system, cause nobody can change the system. (He is referring to the situations in those facilities where the state places neglected children, this is where he is working). Now the "nazi" description is his. He sees the management and the bureaucracy in those facilities as being "nazi" and he sees himself as having to play within those rules, being able occasionally to make it better for the "inmates", only if he plays by the rules (or else they'll just kick him out). SO in fact he is advocating a sort of "doubling", and collaboration. I think this is very problematic, and perhaps it would be better to make these places worse till they implode, or as the saying goes "the worse it is the better it is" in terms of having to let the process complete itself, and not serve as a bandage that prolongs the existence of BAD institutions. This is perhaps psychology's role on a larger scale. Basically, as you said, in an Auschwitz situation it is better to resist or escape than cooperate, I say it is also better to bomb Auschwitz and wipe it out, with the victims, rather than let it function forever and "work with the system" to alleviate some of the consequences. I see many of the psychologist's (per their methodology, not as people god forbid, some are nice) role as the prison doctors in camps...not much use, AND it makes the camp appear good, for the red cross reps. :-)<br> <br> <p></p><i></i>
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