Tantra-Induced Delusional Syndrome ("TIDS")

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Re: Tantra-Induced Delusional Syndrome ("TIDS")

Postby American Dream » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:28 pm

undead wrote:
Terence McKenna was politically naive for sure, and in the end his trip turned out to be just another trip for the most part. There are a few contributions and ideas of his that I think are important and relevant to political movements and the left in general. For example, the centrality of drugs in imperialism and controlling societies, the idea of the dominator society that is fueled by alcohol, the need to be conscious of the various substances (sugar, coffee, tea, etc.) that are harmful in various ways, and most of all that people should stop consuming commercial media and create their own. Popularizing the cultivation of psilocybin mushrooms before anyone knew how to do it remains his most significant contribution. He was just another human being, though, and he was pretty up front about that in his talks, I think. There is a tendency to make him out to be more than he was, I agree. I'm not sure what there is to be suspicious about, though. What is it exactly?


I'm rushing now- the suspicions were planted by someone else who may be kind of a survivor who sometimes gets things wrong but sometimes knows things- she knew him a bit. For now, I'll just ask you this:

Terrence could be very erudite about a lot of different topics, especially if drugs were involved. However, it seems that where MKULTRA type programs were concerned, his presentation was pretty damned simplistic.

Am I missing something and/or if this is true, what gives?

undead wrote:
Naturally, Tenzin Tethon made no mention of the fact that the sexual exploitation of women for spiritual purposes forms the heart of the tantric mystery.


This is completely wrong, and shows the author's limited view for what it is. It must be said that "tantra" can mean many different things depending on the context. Even for the generalized definition of tantric Buddhism that includes all of the taboo-breaking and rituals and so forth - the heart of it is about sexual and neurological biology. The exploitation of women is the misuse of it on the part of patriarchal authority figures. Tantric sex is a practice that basically subordinates the man to the woman and places priority on the woman's experience, but from reading this material you would never know that.

That is why I object to the idea of a "Tantra Induced Delusional Syndrome" as opposed to a guru-induced delusional syndrome, or a syndrome specific to cult brainwashing. There is no room for the complexity of the word "tantra" in such a simplistic label and it is bound to confuse people and place all kinds of negative associations on something that is highly positive, especially when it concerns the equality of men and woman and respect for women in general.


I'm rushing now but I'd be curious if you read the full article linked, entitiled THE TANTRIC FEMALE SACRIFICE but if not, maybe go back and check it out. I think the Trimondis make a strong case for traditional Tibetan Tantric practice being patriarchal and essentially using women for the purposes that the (more "important") men may have.

Please note that this is entirely distinct from what the word "Tantra" suggests when commonly used in the West. So maybe a semantic distinction?


.
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Re: Tantra-Induced Delusional Syndrome ("TIDS")

Postby Hammer of Los » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:36 pm

...

The sacred mysteries reveal how to live best in the world. They speak only of the Way that must be trodden every day. There is indeed no attainment, except realisation of the true path in every moment of each new day;

Daoism is the path.

Vedantism is the path.

Buddhism is the path.

Tantra is the path.

Yoga is the path.

Sikhism is the path.

Jainism is the path.

Sufism is the path.

Alchemy is the path.

Christianity is the path.

Psycho analysis is the path.

Art is the path.

Druidry is the path.

Kung Fu is the path.

Chaos Magick is the path.

Philosophy is the path.

Everything else of wisdom is also the path.*

All good paths are paths of self improvement, service and humility, of spiritual evolution a la Teilhard de Chardin.

Pythagoras too knew of the path. He learnt it from the egyptians. They seem to have learnt it from a prior larger globe spanning civilisation.

The cat only crouches in order to pounce.

A man only exhales in order to once more inhale the breath of life.

Pay attention to the pain the materia brings you, and learn the Karma Dharma.

...

Perhaps Time is a vortex, or rather two vortices - one atop the other.

Perhaps the Falconer has already regained the ear of the Falcon.

Perhaps now we travel forward towards the uttermost past.

Perhaps one day, the Ancient Giants will indeed walk upon the earth once more.


:angelwings:

*Natural philosophy, in the form of the materialist philosophy of natural science, can only be understood as part of a larger philosophy. It alone cannot be the path, for the objective stance removes the observer at the centre of every universe.

...
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Re: Tantra-Induced Delusional Syndrome ("TIDS")

Postby undead » Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:18 pm

Yes, it is a semantic distinction, but an important one. Especially when formulating labels for western mental health professionals who are bound to be ignorant of that distinction. The Tibetan priesthood uses the more ancient Vedic practices for their misogynistic gratification. Such misuse of spiritual techniques unfortunately overwhelms the original practice itself in many cases, to the point that the original legitimate practice is forgotten and the name is associated with the abuse in the minds of the ignorant public. This is true of many good things. Take cannabis or psilocybin, for example.

Re Terence and MKULTRA, you're right. There is a desperate need in the mostly bourgeois psychedelic community to deny to themselves that they are being manipulated continuously through their devotion to this idea. Most people (not only in the psychedelic community) feel that there is no real practical use in their lives to be aware of the profoundly disturbing history of MKULTRA and other such monstrosities, which are traumatic just to think about. Individual inner peace is more important. The history of the introduction of LSD to the general public makes it clear that the government sought to disrupt a mass uprising, and they succeeded. Most people who are involved with psychedelics like to think that they are making a positive impact by promoting it or partaking in it, and nobody wants to see themselves as being duped.
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Re: Tantra-Induced Delusional Syndrome ("TIDS")

Postby American Dream » Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:06 pm

Hammer of Los wrote:...

The sacred mysteries reveal how to live best in the world. They speak only of the Way that must be trodden every day. There is indeed no attainment, except realisation of the true path in every moment of each new day;

Daoism is the path.

Vedantism is the path.

Buddhism is the path.

Tantra is the path.

Yoga is the path.

Sikhism is the path.

Jainism is the path.

Sufism is the path.

Alchemy is the path.

Christianity is the path.

Psycho analysis is the path.

Art is the path.

Druidry is the path.

Kung Fu is the path.

Chaos Magick is the path.

Philosophy is the path.

Everything else of wisdom is also the path.*

My path is the path of the wizard, the right way wizard, the wizard of transformation and of protection, because I have intuited the Integrative Revealing Science of Mind and Body and the Ineffable Force, which three together form the holy trinity. The body is the holy temple, in which are manifest all three. It is also the crucible from which comes forth the newly arisen phoenix.

That is my exegesis.

All good paths are paths of self improvement, service and humility, of spiritual evolution a la Teilhard de Chardin.

Pythagoras too knew of the path. He learnt it from the egyptians. They seem to have learnt it from a prior larger globe spanning civilisation.

The cat only crouches in order to pounce.

A man only exhales in order to once more inhale the breath of life.

Pay attention to the pain the materia brings you, and learn the Karma Dharma.

...

Perhaps Time is a vortex, or rather two vortices - one atop the other.

Perhaps the Falconer has already regained the ear of the Falcon.

Perhaps now we travel forward towards the uttermost past.

Perhaps one day, the Ancient Giants will indeed walk upon the earth once more.


:angelwings:

*Natural philosophy, in the form of the materialist philosophy of natural science, can only be understood as part of a larger philosophy. It alone cannot be the path, for the objective stance removes the observer at the centre of every universe.


ps My kung fu practice is coming along extremely well.

...


That's one side of the coin.

The other side concerns discrimination and discernment, especially when authoritarianism, sexual abuse, racist dogmas, CIA manipulations, thought reform techniques and other things of that nature are concerned...
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Re: Tantra-Induced Delusional Syndrome ("TIDS")

Postby American Dream » Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:14 pm

undead wrote:Yes, it is a semantic distinction, but an important one. Especially when formulating labels for western mental health professionals who are bound to be ignorant of that distinction. The Tibetan priesthood uses the more ancient Vedic practices for their misogynistic gratification. Such misuse of spiritual techniques unfortunately overwhelms the original practice itself in many cases, to the point that the original legitimate practice is forgotten and the name is associated with the abuse in the minds of the ignorant public. This is true of many good things. Take cannabis or psilocybin, for example.

Re Terence and MKULTRA, you're right. There is a desperate need in the mostly bourgeois psychedelic community to deny to themselves that they are being manipulated continuously through their devotion to this idea. Most people (not only in the psychedelic community) feel that there is no real practical use in their lives to be aware of the profoundly disturbing history of MKULTRA and other such monstrosities, which are traumatic just to think about. Individual inner peace is more important. The history of the introduction of LSD to the general public makes it clear that the government sought to disrupt a mass uprising, and they succeeded. Most people who are involved with psychedelics like to think that they are making a positive impact by promoting it or partaking in it, and nobody wants to see themselves as being duped.


I understand why you think clarifying our terms when we speak of "Tantra" is important. Perhaps Charles Carreon- the author of the OP on "TIDS" is unconsciously using jargon because he has been so far inside that community for so long and more recently he and his partner Tara have been stirring up a lot of debate within Vajradhatu and Buddhist circles. Emphasizing the distinctions and presenting a positive view of conscious sexuality techniques in general is important.

As to Terrence and MKULTRA, following my friend's paranoid hunches, we would have to inquire as to what his position was towards MKULTRA, beyond the psychedelic subculture. It seems as though his analysis was weak on government mind control techniques in general. The big question for me would concern why...
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Re: Tantra-Induced Delusional Syndrome ("TIDS")

Postby undead » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:02 pm

American Dream wrote:As to Terrence and MKULTRA, following my friend's paranoid hunches, we would have to inquire as to what his position was towards MKULTRA, beyond the psychedelic subculture. It seems as though his analysis was weak on government mind control techniques in general. The big question for me would concern why...


Terence was a pioneer in tripping and consciously created a kind of mass trip for people who lacked a context for their experiences. His trip was a foundation for people to start from. During psychedelic sessions the discussion of MKULTRA and related subject is a major buzzkill, and when you are in such an open state of mind the horror of it can be absolutely paralyzing. So someone speaking on the positive uses of the psychedelic experience is bound to avoid the subject in order to keep the discussion productive from a pragmatic point of view. Nobody is going to pay to listen to Terence talk about the horrific details of a problem that nobody knows how to solve.

He probably avoided the subject for the same reason that everyone avoids the subject: what is the point of focusing on that? It is a bottomless pit of traumatic experience. Most people can not physically stand to empathize with people in such a situation. For most humans awareness of these things is not practical - it is highly impractical. It is distracting.

I would ask: why should he have focused more on the details and history of government mind control programs? To do so would have certainly prevented him from pursuing his life's work with psychedelics, which require one to actively maintain a positive state of mind. The reason he never talked about it was probably that it wasn't his place to discuss such things. If I were guiding other less experienced people in a psychedelic experience I would avoid the subject like the plague, in the interest of maintaining a positive frame of mind.

He probably didn't want to be killed, more than anything else. As a highly exposed individual openly advocating illegal practices, already treading on thin ice, this is understandable. After his death people have ascribed him more importance than he would have voluntarily sought in life, and I think this is why we would even expect him to have spoken about this subject in the first place.
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Re: Tantra-Induced Delusional Syndrome ("TIDS")

Postby Simulist » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:08 pm

Okay. I get that discussing MKULTRA is a major "buzzkill," as you put it. But you don't stop just there.
undead wrote:He probably avoided the subject for the same reason that everyone avoids the subject: what is the point of focusing on that? It is a bottomless pit of traumatic experience. Most people can not physically stand to empathize with people in such a situation. For most humans awareness of these things is not practical - it is highly impractical. It is distracting.

And you really should have.

While we're at it, what's the point of Amnesty International? Now there's a "bottomless pit of traumatic experience" for you! Most people cannot physically stand to empathize with people in such situations either. Hmm. But, on second thought, maybe Amnesty International really does have a purpose after all, don't you think?

And maybe there's a point to focusing on similar MKULTRA abuses, too. In fact, I'm quite certain there is.
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
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Re: Tantra-Induced Delusional Syndrome ("TIDS")

Postby Hammer of Los » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:24 pm

dearAD wrote:That's one side of the coin.

The other side concerns discrimination and discernment, especially when authoritarianism, sexual abuse, racist dogmas, CIA manipulations, thought reform techniques and other things of that nature are concerned...


Just two sides of a single coin?

I will assert that the path is every facet of an ever shining diamond. Mirror images abound in the gemstone nature of fractal holographic reality.

As above, so below, and roundabout, and up and down, and inside and out.

Discernment is one of the keys, of course.

The path is for individuals alone. For those who seek individuation, or self realisation.

Free Will is paramount.

There is no authoritarianism in it.

And dna and heredity are facts of life.

Perhaps we need another thread to examine accusations of racism or fascism against theosophy and its various offshoots.

The CIA, well I don't want to get into that. They have their work to do I suppose.

Thought reform sounds like a good idea, though. With our thoughts we create the world, and the world is in dire need of a little positive reform is it not?

:angelwings:


ps I reject labels although somewhat grudgingly I might describe myself as a unitarian universalist.

pps I am not an advocate of Terrence McKenna, or the use of psychedelics.

ppps Just as a side note, I am attracted to process philosophies such as those of Heraclitus, A N Whitehead, and David Ray Griffin. We are in the process of becoming we know not what.
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Re: Tantra-Induced Delusional Syndrome ("TIDS")

Postby Hammer of Los » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:42 pm

Simulist wrote:Okay. I get that discussing MKULTRA is a major "buzzkill," as you put it. But you don't stop just there.
undead wrote:He probably avoided the subject for the same reason that everyone avoids the subject: what is the point of focusing on that? It is a bottomless pit of traumatic experience. Most people can not physically stand to empathize with people in such a situation. For most humans awareness of these things is not practical - it is highly impractical. It is distracting.

And you really should have.

While we're at it, what's the point of Amnesty International? Now there's a "bottomless pit of traumatic experience" for you! Most people cannot physically stand to empathize with people in such situations either. Hmm. But, on second thought, maybe Amnesty International really does have a purpose after all, don't you think?

And maybe there's a point to focusing on similar MKULTRA abuses, too. In fact, I'm quite certain there is.


Undead has shown a great deal of wisdom and discernment.

The vast majority of people when faced with a possible reality of people deliberately inflicting the worst suffering, the worst imaginable trauma, upon the weakest, the most vulnerable, the most innocent, our dear children, will flinch and reject it. They will say none could do such things. Sadly, the evidence contradicts this view. To acknowledge the reality of such systematic "evil" is indeed traumatising and problematic. It was for me. I feel cowardly for not helping with victim advocacy more than I do, but who would want to get on the wrong side of people capable of such crimes? Not I, for I have always been a physical coward, and even moreso since I have children of my own whose safety is my constant concern.

That is why it is easier for people to believe in mass psychosis, "The Satanic Panic," than organised "evil."


ps I dont actually believe in "evil", only in human beings who are full of pain and fear and doubt and confusion and loneliness and hate and self loathing, and of course selfish desire and pride and greed and lust, who know not the karma dharma, who know not the beneficial way of living. Thankfully a great sage once told us that all such are hoist by their own petard in the end. Therefore I worry not, and I sing my song and dance my dance.

:angelwings:

...
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Re: Tantra-Induced Delusional Syndrome ("TIDS")

Postby undead » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:53 pm

Simulist wrote:Okay. I get that discussing MKULTRA is a major "buzzkill," as you put it. But you don't stop just there.
undead wrote:He probably avoided the subject for the same reason that everyone avoids the subject: what is the point of focusing on that? It is a bottomless pit of traumatic experience. Most people can not physically stand to empathize with people in such a situation. For most humans awareness of these things is not practical - it is highly impractical. It is distracting.

And you really should have.

While we're at it, what's the point of Amnesty International? Now there's a "bottomless pit of traumatic experience" for you! Most people cannot physically stand to empathize with people in such situations either. Hmm. But, on second thought, maybe Amnesty International really does have a purpose after all, don't you think?

And maybe there's a point to focusing on similar MKULTRA abuses, too. In fact, I'm quite certain there is.


It was a rhetorical question. I am well aware of the need to focus on these problems. My point was that for the purposes of Terence McKenna it would be exactly the wrong thing to focus on. Amnesty International is not the same as the analysis of government mind control methods in detail by an individual public speaker.
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Re: Tantra-Induced Delusional Syndrome ("TIDS")

Postby Simulist » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:58 pm

Amnesty International has much in common with the analysis of government mind control programs, but I don't particularly disagree with you about Terrence McKenna's choice.
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Re: Tantra-Induced Delusional Syndrome ("TIDS")

Postby Simulist » Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:09 pm

Hammer of Los wrote:
Simulist wrote:Okay. I get that discussing MKULTRA is a major "buzzkill," as you put it. But you don't stop just there.
undead wrote:He probably avoided the subject for the same reason that everyone avoids the subject: what is the point of focusing on that? It is a bottomless pit of traumatic experience. Most people can not physically stand to empathize with people in such a situation. For most humans awareness of these things is not practical - it is highly impractical. It is distracting.

And you really should have.

While we're at it, what's the point of Amnesty International? Now there's a "bottomless pit of traumatic experience" for you! Most people cannot physically stand to empathize with people in such situations either. Hmm. But, on second thought, maybe Amnesty International really does have a purpose after all, don't you think?

And maybe there's a point to focusing on similar MKULTRA abuses, too. In fact, I'm quite certain there is.


Undead has shown a great deal of wisdom and discernment.

No argument there.

Hammer of Los wrote:The vast majority of people when faced with a possible reality of people deliberately inflicting the worst suffering, the worst imaginable trauma, upon the weakest, the most vulnerable, the most innocent, our dear children, will flinch and reject it. They will say none could do such things. Sadly, the evidence contradicts this view. To acknowledge the reality of such systematic "evil" is indeed traumatising and problematic. It was for me. I feel cowardly for not helping with victim advocacy more than I do, but who would want to get on the wrong side of people capable of such crimes? Not I, for I have always been a physical coward, and even moreso since I have children of my own whose safety is my constant concern.

That is why it is easier for people to believe in mass psychosis, "The Satanic Panic," than organised "evil."


ps I dont actually believe in "evil", only in human beings who are full of pain and fear and doubt and confusion and loneliness and hate and self loathing, and of course selfish desire and pride and greed and lust, who know not the karma dharma, who know not the beneficial way of living. Thankfully a great sage once told us that all such are hoist by their own petard in the end. Therefore I worry not, and I sing my song and dance my dance.

:angelwings:

...

By all means, do.

And if, heaven forbid, you are ever victimized by the kind of real evil that cannot be denied, I hope there will be someone courageous-enough to be your advocate.
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Re: Tantra-Induced Delusional Syndrome ("TIDS")

Postby American Dream » Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:18 pm

undead wrote:
American Dream wrote:As to Terrence and MKULTRA, following my friend's paranoid hunches, we would have to inquire as to what his position was towards MKULTRA, beyond the psychedelic subculture. It seems as though his analysis was weak on government mind control techniques in general. The big question for me would concern why...


Terence was a pioneer in tripping and consciously created a kind of mass trip for people who lacked a context for their experiences. His trip was a foundation for people to start from. During psychedelic sessions the discussion of MKULTRA and related subject is a major buzzkill, and when you are in such an open state of mind the horror of it can be absolutely paralyzing. So someone speaking on the positive uses of the psychedelic experience is bound to avoid the subject in order to keep the discussion productive from a pragmatic point of view. Nobody is going to pay to listen to Terence talk about the horrific details of a problem that nobody knows how to solve.

He probably avoided the subject for the same reason that everyone avoids the subject: what is the point of focusing on that? It is a bottomless pit of traumatic experience. Most people can not physically stand to empathize with people in such a situation. For most humans awareness of these things is not practical - it is highly impractical. It is distracting.

I would ask: why should he have focused more on the details and history of government mind control programs? To do so would have certainly prevented him from pursuing his life's work with psychedelics, which require one to actively maintain a positive state of mind. The reason he never talked about it was probably that it wasn't his place to discuss such things. If I were guiding other less experienced people in a psychedelic experience I would avoid the subject like the plague, in the interest of maintaining a positive frame of mind.

He probably didn't want to be killed, more than anything else. As a highly exposed individual openly advocating illegal practices, already treading on thin ice, this is understandable. After his death people have ascribed him more importance than he would have voluntarily sought in life, and I think this is why we would even expect him to have spoken about this subject in the first place.


Your points are well-taken, however I should also emphasize that MKULTRA type programs are by no means all about trauma or torture- just about ways to manipulate other people, including ways that may feel pretty good to them. That the knowledge of the existence of these mind control/manind manipulation forces can be a major buzz-kill, I don't doubt...

However, if Terrence was orienting people to psychedelics, it seems like these aspects should be acknowledged. They would help people to avoid becoming victims of the full array of techniques that might be used against them, to avoid becoming cannon fodder in the War on Drugs, to recognize when others are being victimized etc.

I shouldn't really perpetuate my friend's wonderings about Terrence as fact because there is no smoking gun, just anomalous facts like the time he spent in residence at Esalen and other things of that nature. That said, here's a hypothesis that should be subject to further testing and analysis:


Psychedelic teachers are generally of interest to elements of the Cryptocracy, in ways that may vary over time but also persist over time.

Timothy Leary, if not fully conscious of an alliance with these sorts of forces, was at least manipulated by them- and it was no doubt in his interest to make peace with them as much as possible. Any would-be successors such as Terrence McKenna- or now, Daniel Pinchbeck, should there be pressure exerted against them- is at least somewhat vulnerable, due to the scary legal consequences that can be inflicted on people in a drug scene.



Now that's what I call a major buzz-kill...
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Re: Tantra-Induced Delusional Syndrome ("TIDS")

Postby undead » Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:21 pm

Simulist wrote:And maybe there's a point to focusing on similar MKULTRA abuses, too. In fact, I'm quite certain there is.


I'd like to hear what exactly is the purpose to focus on the subject. I would immediately answer that the purpose is to find a solution, but that is not the same as telling everyone about the abuse in lurid detail. When you just go on and on about problems without focusing on solutions, it is demoralizing. Most people literally can not comprehend MKULTRA. It is really a highly specific topic and the details are not relevant to most people. Yes the truth that it happened and continues to happen is important. Beyond that, most of the details are not relevant to people who have their own real and serious problems to think about.

Just the fact that similar abuses continue to this day at a much higher rate is reason enough not to focus on the details of something that happened fifty years ago. For historical context education is important to know, but when it comes to details wouldn't it be better to focus on what is happening now?
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Re: Tantra-Induced Delusional Syndrome ("TIDS")

Postby Hammer of Los » Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:39 pm

...

dearoldsim wrote:By all means, do.

And if, heaven forbid, you are ever victimized by the kind of real evil that cannot be denied, I hope there will be someone courageous-enough to be your advocate.


I think, my dear Simulist, that you misread my post.

I asserted that the evidence contradicts the view that such organised evil cannot exist.

I think it is important that people recognise this, just as you do.

That is one of the reasons I post on the subject.

I publish globally just a little commentary every now and then concerning what I believe is the reality of trauma based mind control, slavery and exploitation, on these very forums.

The "Satanic Panic" or mass psychosis hypothesis was a convenient and effective smoke screen.

As was and is blaming the transience of memory, or the alleged behaviour of therapists.

But it is nonetheless a horribly depressing subject.
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