A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:49 pm

American Dream » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:25 pm wrote:A General Message:

This is a thread about "A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State". It was based in the realm of ideas and not ad hominems, and is intended to be focused on racist/fascist type movements- and the opposition to them.

Please respect this thread and take other concerns elsewhere.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:52 pm

Searcher08 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:47 pm wrote:Please respect this board and do n0t stand by and say nothing when long standing members are referred to as 'fucking anti-Semites' or when other users are told to 'fuck off'.

Please respect the board by not quoting the rules. Doing that is incredibly patronising and should be left to a MOD.

Please refrain from argumentation via kids cartoons or ghastly gifs.


I was doing a rough count of how many times the 'anti-fascism' rule was quoted, and got to over 15 in three weeks (all from the same person)
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby slimmouse » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:57 pm

I'd just like to chip in and say how truly vile all this racism is.

It pains me to think what is going through the minds of these sick people.

Its quite a scary thought sometimes, but Im finding it all really empowering actually.

Im so glad all of my friends here dont fall into the "fucking anti semite" category around this board.

Pretty disgusting slur that.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:11 pm

ImageImageImage

http://www.libcom.org/library/nick-grif ... schlembach

Nick Griffin on Question Time - Raphael Schlembach

Shift Editor Raphael Schlembach looks at the politics of Nick Griffin and some of the misconceptions around contemporary fascism.

Originally published in January 2010.

8 million viewers saw Nick Griffin’s appearance on Question Time last October; many more were involved in conversations about it, or read about it in newspapers or on the internet. By all means, the BBC platform that was offered to the chairman was a national, if not nationalist, event. You might have joined in the drinking games that were suggested on online forums and blogs: drink one finger every time ‘Evil Nick’ mentions immigration, two fingers every time he mentions Dunkirk or Churchill, and down your pint if he accuses someone of being a Stalinist or ultra-leftist. You might have taken pleasure at Griffin’s unwillingness to explain his views on the Holocaust, to denounce the KKK or to distance himself from the Third Reich. Ha, those Unite against Fascism (UAF) placards outside the BBC television studio are telling the truth: the BNP is a Nazi party!

Or is it? You might have also observed the awkward silence from the audience when Griffin spoke out against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan or mentioned the economic crisis. Is this not the opinion of a liberal lefty? Are the BNP an anti-war party? And how do we explain Griffin’s insistence that he is a hate-figure in British neo-Nazi circles? Are those UAF slogans mistaken after all?

I offer here some comments on three of Griffin’s remarks on Question Time that seemed to conflict with the UAF understanding of fascism – and that most left-wing commentators chose to ignore. They seemed to silence the Question Time audience as much as Griffin’s most vocal opponents on the left. Yet, they contribute to an understanding of the modern BNP that is vital to anti-fascist campaigners.

Nazis vs. the BNP

Outside the television studio, UAF had called for a protest against Griffin’s appearance on Question Time with placards declaring ‘The BNP is a Nazi party’. But inside, Griffin insisted that he is not a Nazi – or at least not any more. Who is right? Probably neither. To be sure, there are neo-Nazi elements within the BNP, in terms of membership, policies and international allies. Yet, Nazism is not the defining characteristic of the BNP’s agenda. In fact, Griffin is right when he says that he does not count many friends amongst the UK’s small neo-Nazi scene; even though this is statement which left UAF supporters stunned. So for once the (otherwise rowdy) Question Time audience was reduced to silence when Griffin explained:

“I am the most loathed man in Britain in the eyes of Nazis. There are Nazis in Britain and they loathe me because I have brought the British National party from the frankly anti-semitic and racist organisation, into the only party which in the clashes between Israel and Gaza supported Israel’s right to deal with Hamas terrorists.”

The short episode where Griffin struggled to balance an attack and a defence of KKK founder Duke does not appear to have gained him any more credit amongst neo-Nazi anti-Semites, as comments left on the white supremacist online forum Stormfront suggest. One forum member, with the user name ‘Ethelred’ stated:

“I thought it was quite a bad performance by Griffin in comparison to his other TV appearances. I didn’t like his attack on Duke but at least he got the truth out by saying Duke’s KKK was a peaceful non-violent one. It reminded me of the old Griffin – a good nationalist and on our side but after [Bonnie Greer] interrupted him with something that implied she was some sort of expert on the KKK just because she’s American-born [...] he seemed to retract that unfortunately and started attacking him.”


Another Stxrmfrxnt member commented:

“Nick cemented his position as a zionist mouthpiece with his support of Israel.

Shame on him. He made us all look stupid by refusing to tackle the issues that matter and as for nudging and laughing with the black supremacist Greer, well I wanted to vomit. Why would you want to engage with that creature? … Griffin taking the pee out of K.K.K. hoods, saying that he’s not a “nazi”. He singularly failed to mention why we are called racists and why it is wrong, he wouldn’t go near the truth about the holocaust for fear of being called antisemitic, what a cowardly performance overall… Question time was a state sanctioned pantomime, with Nick being the tail end of the horse, firmly up the arse of Israel.”


Griffin has indeed made a remarkable transformation from his earlier neo-Nazi leanings to a more moderate, albeit populist, nationalism. And he has taken the BNP with him on this trajectory. Under its previous leadership, headed by John Tyndall, the party did not just differ in its use of tactics which included a much more antagonistic street presence. There has also been a political shift.

Griffin began his career as a politician in the neo-Nazi National Front and was then instrumental in helping to prominence the ideas of the ‘Third Position’ movement, inspired notably by Italian neo-fascist Roberto Fiore. ‘Third Position’ politics is essentially a move away from traditional racism and white-supremacism, and replaces it with an ultra-nationalist belief in the separation and co-existence of races. As such, Griffin early on showed an interest in black separatism and national liberation movements. But Griffin struggled to find support for his Euro-fascist ideology in Britain and, as leader of the BNP, resorted back to a form of ultra-nationalist populism coupled with old-style racism to win over a broad range of followers. In Britain’s neo-Nazi scene, he thus remains a controversial character who is mostly considered a sell-out.

Patriots vs. the war

It was another remark that Griffin dropped during the Question Time debate that most challenged the audience and his adversaries on the panel – when he suggested that the BNP was the only anti-war party represented.

On the BNP website Griffin makes this very clear: “The war is based on a series of grotesque lies, manufactured by the Labour and Tory party leadership. They claim that it is being fought to prevent terrorism. This is nonsense. Instead of preventing terrorism, the war there is actually encouraging it.”

The BNP’s anti-war stance has nothing to do with the humble recognition of Britain’s colonialist past. And certainly it’s miles apart from the anti-Islamophobia position of the Stop the War Coalition. It has more to do with a brand of nationalism that the party’s leadership have recently tried to push: ethno-nationalism, or ethno-pluralism.

Ethno-pluralism as a right-wing populist ideology is essentially an anti-immigration discourse that developed in the context of immigration to Europe from its former colonies in the 1960s. It attempts to describe and justify aggressive opposition to migrants as a ‘natural defence’ of one’s ‘indigenous’ culture. Cultures are seen as static and hermetically-closed entities with a homogenous internal identity. Whilst ethno-pluralist ideology regards different cultures and identities as formally equal, they are also seen as incompatible.

This new form of racism, a racism without races, thus bases itself on a right to difference. Different cultures, ethnic groups and identities need to be defended from cultural globalisation, multi-culturalism and universalism. Cultural rights are not bestowed politically by the state, but are somehow derived ‘naturally’ – hence the emphasis on history and tradition. Ethno-pluralism has thus an air of ‘anti-imperialism’ about it.

If nations are to co-exist alongside each other in a ‘natural’ order, aggressive and expansionist wars have no role to play in nationalist politics. Griffin can therefore justify the BNP’s opposition to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq not only with reference to the death toll amongst British soldiers but also as part of a politics that claims the sovereignty of nations over ‘their’ territory.

The BNP vs. Usury

None of this suggests any BNP sympathy towards Muslims or the Arab world. On the contrary, Islamophobia is what most defines the party and its supporters today. So it was even more remarkable when Griffin on Question Time began defending some elements of political Islam and combined this with the evening’s only reference to the economic crisis:

“Islam does have some good points - it does not allow for usury and would not have allowed the banks to run riot the way they have.”


Here Griffin attacked the banks, greed and the political centre, much like the populist left and parts of the mainstream do. And, he hails in Islam one character – the opposition to usury.

Essentially, usury is lending money at interest. It was banned by the Catholic Church in the 12th century and also Islam is widely seen as demanding condemnation of the practice. Both the medieval European and the Islamic banking systems got around this by declaring loans to be investments (so the return is profit not interest) or by actually paying out less then the lending contract specifies, for example.

In common usage today, the term refers to the charging of unreasonably high rates of interest. What is more, it has historically become associated with Jews. Because of the (religious) laws in Europe and elsewhere that restricted interest charging to Christians, Jewish trade has often correlated with the sphere of money circulation.

Anti-Semitic imagery has traditionally attempted to create an analogy between Jews and money-lending. Fascist anti-globalisation ideology makes a distinction between industrial/productive capital and finance capital. The former is seen as honest, national and democratic. The ‘secretive web’ of financiers, speculators and capitalists, on the other hand, is characterised as Jewish. This is brought to its ‘logical’ extreme primarily in the German and parts of the wider European neo-Nazi scene, where nationalists have readopted socialist rhetoric, albeit coupled with beliefs in the ‘people’, ‘nation’ or ‘German values’.

So the remark about usury shows that anti-Semitism in Nick Griffin’s politics has not suddenly vanished. Anti-Semitism is still an element of BNP ideology, although now it manifests itself in the populist scapegoating of bankers and finance workers for the economic crisis.

True enough, in its populist form the BNP’s emphasis is mostly on anti-immigration and Islamophobic rhetoric. But its populist ultra-nationalism lets it stay in touch with the neo-Nazi obsession with what they see as an international Jewish conspiracy of bankers and speculators.

This is something that the UAF analysis is unable to grasp: where Griffin presents the BNP as a populist anti-greed, anti-sleaze and anti-war party, this is not to hide its true colours; rather it is entirely compatible with his version of ethno-pluralist nationalism.


"Raphael Schlembach is an editor of Shift Magazine."
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby Searcher08 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:14 pm

slimmouse » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:57 pm wrote:I'd just like to chip in and say how truly vile all this racism is.

It pains me to think what is going through the minds of these sick people.

Its quite a scary thought sometimes, but Im finding it all really empowering actually.

Im so glad all of my friends here dont fall into the "fucking anti semite" category around this board.

Pretty disgusting slur that.


THIS **IS** ON TOPIC!!

I agree with all of that.
I also want to register my disapproval at the MODS letting Solace say this with no consequence.
I also want to state my surprise at AD not responding to my request to clearly distance himself from Solace's slur towards Slad.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:16 pm

slimmouse » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:57 pm wrote:I'd just like to chip in and say how truly vile all this racism is.

It pains me to think what is going through the minds of these sick people.

Its quite a scary thought sometimes, but Im finding it all really empowering actually.

Im so glad all of my friends here dont fall into the "fucking anti semite" category around this board.

Pretty disgusting slur that.


Amazingly enough, we haven't really had any of that in this thread yet, it's probably only a matter of time though.

Lots of useless meanderings about 'cyrpto-fascism' though, which is basically a distraction from the real deal. And yes, we've had the obligatory Icke mentions.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:21 pm

AD, regarding Nick Griffin and the BNP, you could do worse than to ask me about all that stuff. It's is my area after all.

It's well out of date (as a lot of your stuff is)
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:22 pm

Searcher08 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:14 pm wrote:
slimmouse » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:57 pm wrote:I'd just like to chip in and say how truly vile all this racism is.

It pains me to think what is going through the minds of these sick people.

Its quite a scary thought sometimes, but Im finding it all really empowering actually.

Im so glad all of my friends here dont fall into the "fucking anti semite" category around this board.

Pretty disgusting slur that.


THIS **IS** ON TOPIC!!

I agree with all of that.
I also want to register my disapproval at the MODS letting Solace say this with no consequence.
I also want to state my surprise at AD not responding to my request to clearly distance himself from Solace's slur towards Slad.


Send me a pm and/or start another thread but please stay with "A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State" here...
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:24 pm

American Dream » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:22 pm wrote:
Searcher08 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:14 pm wrote:
slimmouse » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:57 pm wrote:I'd just like to chip in and say how truly vile all this racism is.

It pains me to think what is going through the minds of these sick people.

Its quite a scary thought sometimes, but Im finding it all really empowering actually.

Im so glad all of my friends here dont fall into the "fucking anti semite" category around this board.

Pretty disgusting slur that.


THIS **IS** ON TOPIC!!

I agree with all of that.
I also want to register my disapproval at the MODS letting Solace say this with no consequence.
I also want to state my surprise at AD not responding to my request to clearly distance himself from Solace's slur towards Slad.


Send me a pm and/or start another thread but please stay with "A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State" here...


Where does 'Green Fascism', New age Fascism and David Icke fit into that?

It's you who can't keep to a subject.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:42 pm

http://liveraf.wordpress.com/2013/03/24 ... ght-party/

NEO-NAZI FORMER BNP MEMBERS LAUNCH NEW FAR-RIGHT PARTY

They hope the new British Democratic Party will kill off the BNP, while security for the launch meeting will be provided by EDL activists.

Image
Andrew Brons with Nick Griffin in 2009

Andrew Brons, a former Chair of the National Front and until recently one of the British National Party’s MEPs, will launch a new far-right party this weekend – one he and his supporters hope will finally kill off the BNP.

The British Democratic Party (BDP) launches tomorrow in a village hall in Leicestershire, as the hardline alternative for disillusioned BNP members and supporters.

Security for the meeting is being provided by EDL activists, bussed into the area from as far as Newcastle, to provide protection from the possibility of attack – not from antifascists, but from the rival BNP who are meeting in nearby Leicester.

Ageing Brons, who is 66 this year, has positioned himself as the new party’s ideological mentor and president.

The interim chairman of the new party is former BNP organiser Kevin Scott from Newcastle. Scott has maintained a steady line of attack for nearly two years against what he and Brons’ supporters allege is the ongoing corruption and watering down of the BNP.

The new party comes eighteen months after Brons failed to unseat BNP leader and fellow MEP, Nick Griffin, in a bitter leadership election for control of the ailing party. Since the party’s disastrous showing in the 2010 General and Local elections, hundreds of disillusioned BNP members have made their way to smaller parties like the English Democrats. Thousands of others just quit the far-right altogether. Brons however, waited patiently, believing the perilous financial state of the party would eventually account for Nick Griffin.

Brons finally resigned from the BNP in October of last year, claiming that he had been “constructively expelled” by what he considered to be merely the “rump” of what was left of the BNP. Griffin loyalists had already launched a series of claims for unfair dismissal and religious and sexual discrimination against Brons’s European office in anticipation of his departure.

In over fifty years of far-right activity, Brons has maintained an impressive collection of hardline “admirers”. A speaking tour last year drew audiences from such groups as the National Front, British Movement and Combat 18. Many of those attendees were former BNP members who either left or were driven from the BNP during its drastic modernisation in the 2000’s. Brons did not join the BNP himself until 2005. He and Griffin had previously shared a passionate hatred of each other during their time together in the NF during the 1980’s.

Brons began his political career way back in the 1960s when he joined the openly Nazi National Socialist Movement, before going on to become Chairman of the National Front in 1980. Under Brons’s tutelage, the BDP is expected to re-focus efforts on promoting scientific racism, calling for the compulsory repatriation of non-whites and push heavily the notion that the Holocaust is a hoax – core policies that Nick Griffin tried to either disguise or extinguish entirely after taking over the BNP in 1999.

Others backing Brons include London-based Barrister Adrian Davies who registered the party and is a long-term opponent of Griffin. As well as registering the party and writing its constitution, Davies most recently defended (unsuccessfully) a businessman from Northern Ireland convicted and jailed for sending death threats to Griffin and his family.

John Bean, a former Mosleyite who previously edited the BNP’s monthly periodical and was often and openly lauded by Nick Griffin, has also now thrown his weight in with Brons, as has Dr James Lewthwaite, who split from the BNP to form his own, Bradford-based, National Democratic Party in 2010. Andrew Moffat who works for Brons in Brussels, and has previously worked closely with Holocaust Denier David Irving, will be the party’s Deputy Chairman.

Despite claiming it will be a democratic party, the new party has no plans to hold elections for posts. All positions in the party were decided weeks ago.

Nick Lowles of the antifascist campaign group Hope not Hate says the new party will be a serious challenge to Nick Griffin’s BNP. “The BDP brings together all of the hardcore Holocaust deniers and racists that have walked away from the BNP over the last two to three years, plus those previously, who could not stomach the party’s image changes.

“They and the BNP already have a mutual hatred of each other and neither party will stop until they’ve killed the other one off. The gloves will be off and it will be toxic”.


UPDATE 9 February 2013 14:30:

Shortly after nine o’clock this morning members of the British Democratic Party (BDP) arrived at a small village hall in Leicestershire and began setting up for the party’s launch meeting.

Six miles away, in the car park of a Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant, neo-Nazis and far-right activists from across the UK were arriving to be redirected to the secret venue.

Despite the secrecy surrounding the meeting, members of the Hope Not Hate research team were able to infiltrate the redirection point and photograph a number of well known far-right activists, many of them disgruntled former BNP members.

Among those providing security for the redirection point was Gary Pudsey from Bridlington, in Yorkshire. A former BNP and C18 activist, Pudsey is one of a number of “former” extremists who made their way into the English Democrats when the BNP began imploding in 2010.

The village hall had about sixty far-right activists inside listening to a serious of speeches from people like Andrew Brons MEP and Kevin Scott on why they have quit the BNP. According to Lowles, there is great anger that the details of the meeting have been leaked by Hope Not Hate researchers. “A number of EDL activists [who were there to provide security for the meeting] are currently prowling the inside of the hall to look for hidden cameras, such is their paranoia.

“They’re not happy, obviously. But I think people have a right to know that these groups of people are lying and cheating their way onto public property to cultivate their message of hate. There should be no hiding place for hatred.”


Matthew Collins is a researcher for Hope Not Hate and author of “Hate: My Life in the British Far Right” (Biteback Books)
From The New Statesman . Report by Matthew Collins . 08.02.13
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:49 pm

AD only recites rules when he feels like people are being unfair to him...he does not care that solace has called me a fucking anti-semite...I guess he would like an exception to that rule...just for solace that is...does he agree with solace? Who can tell? :shrug:
Last edited by seemslikeadream on Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:49 pm

Ask me about this stuff AD, your information is stale and out of date. I got a lot of inside info from all the infighting in British Nationalism over the last few years. They didn't seem to mind washing their dirty linen in public.

In fact, this is one of the factors that the Left continually fail to exploit... tensions within nationalism
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:56 pm

You're also failing to place all this stuff in any usable context AD, it's just data.

As the leading anti-fascist on this board I would expect you to attend to such things. This will lead us back to a possible discussion about how anti-fascism is best projected in this environment (if at all), and how we can improve it.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby Searcher08 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:13 pm

seemslikeadream » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:49 pm wrote:AD only recites rules when he feels like people are being unfair to him...he does not care that solace has called me a fucking anti-semite...I guess he would like an exception to that rule...just for solace that is...does he agree with solace? Who can tell? :shrug:


@AD
I am currently at a roadblock you have put up in this thread. I have plenty of ideas and contributions to this subject which I have put forward and am happy to expand upon - however
- I would like to share them in a thread environment which is free of hasbara trolling, members being verbally abused and members being referred to as 'fucking anti-Semites'
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:15 pm

Searcher08 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:13 pm wrote:
seemslikeadream » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:49 pm wrote:AD only recites rules when he feels like people are being unfair to him...he does not care that solace has called me a fucking anti-semite...I guess he would like an exception to that rule...just for solace that is...does he agree with solace? Who can tell? :shrug:


@AD
I am currently at a roadblock you have put up in this thread. I have plenty of ideas and contributions to this subject which I have put forward and am happy to expand upon - however
- I would like to share them in a thread environment which is free of hasbara trolling, members being verbally abused and members being referred to as 'fucking anti-Semites'


Send me a pm, please.
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