A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:30 pm

With regard to the discussion of the subject of fascism and anti fascism on here...

It seems the most folks on here are are either uninterested, or have become put off by the shrillness and polarisation presented (I suspect mainly the latter).

I think there is room for at least two people to address this, and I think a problem here is that this subject has become subject to 'territoriality' (ie, it's too personal). This remains in the realm of the first of my three points:

jakell » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:21 pm wrote:
1) Sustaining an environment where these issues can be discussed rationally (ie, no heated repetitive arguments and conversely, protracted silences)
.............
" Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism"
User avatar
jakell
 
Posts: 1821
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 4:58 pm
Location: North England
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:33 pm

This quote spoke to me:

Interlopers on Social Media: Feminism, Women of Color and Oppression | andrea366 →

Addressing structures of oppression generally leads to conflict because these structures shape our ideas, our values, our everything. We don’t know how to live outside of oppression because it is like the weather, ever-present and so we replicate it, all the time. But we want liberation and so we must work towards it. And that work involves criticism, analysis, and grounded practice.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby seemslikeadream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:40 pm

American Dream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:25 am wrote:Slad, if you are not able to keep yourself away from me, then we really do need a conversation with P.W. Should we do that here on this thread and/or by pm?



Have you talked with solace yet? Just where did he get his crazy delusional accusations?

when you do then I will have an open conversation with you and PW about anything you want and let's have Jeff way in on it also

when you openly and fully disavow solace's dirty little shit he has thrown on me then I'll talk with you and only then


YOU do not own this board..you will not be allowed by me to fan flames and then take no responsibility for the fire
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:50 pm

seemslikeadream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:40 am wrote:
American Dream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:25 am wrote:Slad, if you are not able to keep yourself away from me, then we really do need a conversation with P.W. Should we do that here on this thread and/or by pm?



Have you talked with solace yet? Just where did he get his crazy delusional accusations?

when you do then I will have an open conversation with you and PW about anything you want and let's have Jeff way in on it also

when you openly and fully disavow solace's dirty little shit he has thrown on me then I'll talk with you and only then


YOU do not own this board


If I had anything to share with you from anybody, you would have heard it. That said, PW was telling you something important in regards to exercising some self-control when you get upset by me and taking a break-and taking some space. I do for example, avoid posting on threads you started and/or are very active on.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby seemslikeadream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:52 pm

so I'll take that as a no? and that you agree with solace?

and this will be my last post in this thread

not much self control when being called a fucking anti-semite so there's that
Last edited by seemslikeadream on Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:07 pm

seemslikeadream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:52 am wrote:so I'll take that as a no? and that you agree with solace?

I have heard nothing- and it's hard for me to decode what you're really thinking about jewish bankers, holocaust revisionism and the like.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby seemslikeadream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:09 pm

there you go again....and I don't give a fuck about anything you want to decode..I don't live for your acceptance...just the lies you proliferate here are of interest to me

I thought the last post would be my last post but since you started up with the CRAP again...well I've answered it and now this will be my last unless you want to continue the slander

you think you free association will work with new members but you ain't gonna pull this crap with me
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby Searcher08 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:42 pm

American Dream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:16 pm wrote:
Searcher08 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:57 am wrote:
American Dream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:23 am wrote:
Searcher08 » Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:15 pm wrote:AD, since I posted my request you have posted pages and pages and pages of stuff - (ie business as usual) without much context, or connection (for me) to the thread.

So for me, I would have to spend a lot of time 'close reading'. Some of the information is (to me) extremely dense, jargon filled, making me wonder if you have even read it yourself!! And if you have not, why are you posting it in GD??!!

I feel defeated by this - it is like trying to talk to someone who is communicating by Alex Jones style bullhorn. So I'm out of this thread. Perhaps another time.

My takeaway from this thread is as follows:
If continual non-contextualised information is presented with little context, unclear relevance or no personal experience, then over time the value created tends to zero.

This is similar to planting a garden by random chance, as opposed to using a holistic approach eg Permaculture.

And with that, I'm outta this thread!


American Dream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:23 am wrote:I think you may be misunderstanding my posts on this thread. Sometimes they could be considered as polemical but on the whole they represent more my general interests, as informed by my perspective which is certainly left/anti-fascist. Many though are guideposts in my own process of self-development as much as anything else.


I need to be very clear about this - my criticism is much less about the CONTENT of what you post, it is the PROCESS in SOME threads - including this one. My reference to Alex Jones bullhorning was meant to refer to the problem of having an evolving two-way information flow
when one person is in mostly pure 'information transmission mode', rather than Jone's polemic.


American Dream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:23 am wrote:I've also thought about this a great deal and given the meandering, digression and fluff on other threads, I feel no shame about this whatsoever.


'An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind'

That comment sounded to me like resignation / despair; I think everyone here at R.I. (self-included) could raise their game on meandering, digression and fluff.

Some strategies to address this:
A thread outcome that is clear:
For example, what specifically is your outcome from this thread if there is one?
In my experience, the biggest problem here is a lack of clarity of what one wants to end up with.
Foe example
Saying 'A useful lively discussion about anti-Fascism in Europe' as an outcome is very poor because it begs the questions

Useful in what way?
Lovely, How?
In Europe when?
ALL of Europe?

in other words, it can mean very different things to different people. Ambiguity is often a monster in these circumstances.

Having an outcome that is specific and sensory based such as
A visual mindmap in JPEG form (and / or compatible with Freemind opensource mindmap software) of the key concepts, people, organisations and ideas involved in the Far Right within the EU, Israel and Turkey, from multiple perspectives

Relevance is focus-related
If I sincerely think something is relevant - and you dont, - in my consulting experience what happens is pretty consistent
a) The discussion becomes a zero-sum binary logic Relevance War - and the original outcome is totally forgotten
OR
b) What each party considers relevant is accepted in parallel, like reporting new islands on a map. A key distinction here is that accepting is not equal to agreeing with.

American Dream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:23 am wrote:I have little patience for crypto-racism, crypto-fascism, and all the tired tropes which they generate. I have no shame for this also. And I'm proud that Rigorous Intuition is an anti-fascist board, an anti-sexist board, and that posts "espousing hatred of a people based upon race, religion, gender or sexuality, are not permitted".


That's fine, but it is looking out through one set of eyes - it is pure information transmission.
When I tried to bring this to your attention through my previous posts, I felt your response was again looking out just through your eyes - does that make sense?
That is very different indeed from a conversation, dialogue or even debate. To be clear, Im not saying pure information transmission is without value - not at all. For example the TIDS thread - but part of the use of TIDS is that it does NOT have much discussion. However that is an exception that proves the rule - this is General Discussion, so surely doing that which facilitates discussion is worth considering?

While Rigorous Intuition welcomes a range of informed perspectives, it is not intended to be a forum for the re-fighting of elemental human values. It should be assumed that this is a place where the dignity and rights of all people are respected.

and that includes your thread audience members, even the ones you dont like! :sun:


As I have said previously, I am all for participating in collaborative research with folks who share fundamental principles and values. In fact, I think it would be great.

I gave jakell lots and lots of chances to own up to his values and agenda here but he was slippery as an eel. I do not believe him to be operating in good faith at all and I have also been persuaded by the "No Platform for Fascists" in the process of researching themes related to this thread.

So yeah, do we have grounds for much of a fruitful conversation here? I don't see it...


AD, you have agreed with descriptions of MYSELF as being 'as slippery as an eel' - and stared into the distance when I asked if you agreed with Solace being allowed to slander slad, slim and myself as fucking anti-Semites.

You appear to have decided that jakell is a fascist infiltrator and have decided that a public CopyPasta war is the best approach to him.

When I provided evidence of Hasbara activity on this board, in the last thread that ended up in the Firepit, you ignored it. So you have double-standards.

If you think jakell is an infiltrating fascist, complain to Jeff. I received the same treatment from you when I expressed an interest in a) Icke and the b) Annunaki and the c) history of the Rothschilds, you know? It took about three years before you got I might be interesting in
a) How people make patterns of novel data b) Ancient Aliens and c) Systemic power concentration in the global financial ecosystem - and it's dangers - and I had to face a fucking years long deluge of posts from semi-literate egomaniac like Tony Fucking Greenstein.

When YOU didnt like jakell following your posts and replying to you, I thought how ironic - because that is historically exactly what YOU have done to people like slim, slad and myself.

So, please before you see yourself as the flyer of the glorious anti-Fascism flag think about
enantiodromia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enantiodromia
User avatar
Searcher08
 
Posts: 5887
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:21 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:52 pm

Thanks for speaking on my behalf S08 as I have been prevented from adequately defending myself in this matter.
" Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism"
User avatar
jakell
 
Posts: 1821
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 4:58 pm
Location: North England
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby Searcher08 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:54 pm

American Dream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:07 pm wrote:
seemslikeadream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:52 am wrote:so I'll take that as a no? and that you agree with solace?

I have heard nothing- and it's hard for me to decode what you're really thinking about jewish bankers, holocaust revisionism and the like.


I'm not sure that you know just how truly awful that sounds.

For myself, it is a shocking example of the non-commital, the dishonest, the deceitful, the underhanded, the duplicitous, the double-dealing, the two-faced, the dissembling, the insincere, the false, the untruthful, the mendacious, not candid, not frank, sly, sneaky, tricky, scheming, calculating, designing, devious, unscrupulous, the economical with the truth, the terminologically inexact , the hollow-hearted, the double-faced, the truthless, the unveracious

Personally, I think Slad, you are a fucking anti-Semite Mouthy Mick bitch who needs to STFU and make me a sandwich. :rofl2
User avatar
Searcher08
 
Posts: 5887
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:21 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:06 pm

AD, you have agreed with descriptions of MYSELF as being 'as slippery as an eel' - and stared into the distance when I asked if you agreed with Solace being allowed to slander slad, slim and myself as fucking anti-Semites.

I can't recall referring to you as being "slippery as an eel" nor what would lead me to say that, similarly with what you refer to regarding solace- so no real comments to make there.

You appear to have decided that jakell is a fascist infiltrator and have decided that a public CopyPasta war is the best approach to him.

Not really- I started this thread long before he appeared and have added to it periodically. Jakell became obsessed with this thread and started trolling it, even though he makes his personally beliefs kind of, well, obscure...

When I provided evidence of Hasbara activity on this board, in the last thread that ended up in the Firepit, you ignored it. So you have double-standards.

The evidence you provided was sketchy and regarding a poster who was long gone. I did not agree with what you seemed to be implying by raising the issue.

If you think jakell is an infiltrating fascist, complain to Jeff. I received the same treatment from you when I expressed an interest in a) Icke and the b) Annunaki and the c) history of the Rothschilds, you know? It took about three years before you got I might be interesting in
a) How people make patterns of novel data b) Ancient Aliens and c) Systemic power concentration in the global financial ecosystem - and it's dangers - and I had to face a fucking years long deluge of posts from semi-literate egomaniac like Tony Fucking Greenstein.

I'm honestly still not sure what to think about your support of and interest in these topics. Quite honestly, if I were choosing anti-racist allies, you would not be my first pick. Also, I am in general agreement with Tony Greenstein regarding BDS, alleged friends of Palestinian Liberation like Israel Shamir and Gilad Atzmon, etc.

As to jakell, I do think he smells kinda funny but he hasn't yet revealed so much about what he really thinks. What is manifest in his track record here, I don't feel good about much at all...
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:06 pm

AD, you have agreed with descriptions of MYSELF as being 'as slippery as an eel' - and stared into the distance when I asked if you agreed with Solace being allowed to slander slad, slim and myself as fucking anti-Semites.

I can't recall referring to you as being "slippery as an eel" nor what would lead me to say that, similarly with what you refer to regarding solace- so no real comments to make there.


You appear to have decided that jakell is a fascist infiltrator and have decided that a public CopyPasta war is the best approach to him.

Not really- I started this thread long before he appeared and have added to it periodically. Jakell became obsessed with this thread and started trolling it, even though he makes his personal beliefs kind of, well, obscure...


When I provided evidence of Hasbara activity on this board, in the last thread that ended up in the Firepit, you ignored it. So you have double-standards.

The evidence you provided was sketchy and regarding a poster who was long gone. I did not agree with what you seemed to be implying by raising the issue.


If you think jakell is an infiltrating fascist, complain to Jeff. I received the same treatment from you when I expressed an interest in a) Icke and the b) Annunaki and the c) history of the Rothschilds, you know? It took about three years before you got I might be interesting in
a) How people make patterns of novel data b) Ancient Aliens and c) Systemic power concentration in the global financial ecosystem - and it's dangers - and I had to face a fucking years long deluge of posts from semi-literate egomaniac like Tony Fucking Greenstein.

I'm honestly still not sure what to think about your support of and interest in these topics. Quite honestly, if I were choosing anti-racist allies, you would not be my first pick. Also, I am in general agreement with Tony Greenstein regarding BDS, alleged friends of Palestinian Liberation like Israel Shamir and Gilad Atzmon, etc.

As to jakell, I do think he smells kinda funny but he hasn't yet revealed so much about what he really thinks. What is manifest in his track record here, I don't feel good about much at all...
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:15 pm

If anyone is interested what I think about things, especially on the present subject matter, then a start would be have a look at the interrogative exchange that occurs from page 3 of this thread (Bear in mind I was newish here and didn't expect the Spanish inquisition):

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=37657 **

Alternatively, or in addition, people can just ask me direct questions at the present time


** about half way down, I wish posts were numbered here.
" Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism"
User avatar
jakell
 
Posts: 1821
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 4:58 pm
Location: North England
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby Searcher08 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:51 pm

American Dream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:06 pm wrote:
AD, you have agreed with descriptions of MYSELF as being 'as slippery as an eel' - and stared into the distance when I asked if you agreed with Solace being allowed to slander slad, slim and myself as fucking anti-Semites.

I can't recall referring to you as being "slippery as an eel" nor what would lead me to say that, similarly with what you refer to regarding solace- so no real comments to make there.


Given that I have repeatedly brought this up with you, even in this thread, that is a bit... forgetful.


You appear to have decided that jakell is a fascist infiltrator and have decided that a public CopyPasta war is the best approach to him.

Not really- I started this thread long before he appeared and have added to it periodically. Jakell became obsessed with this thread and started trolling it, even though he makes his personal beliefs kind of, well, obscure...


Saying you have 'added to this thread periodically' (when I have been making sincere requests to slow down the post rate and amount so that readers can ingest what you have already posted - a request you ignored) is like describing the Japanese tsumani as 'somewhat frisky'
Your description of jakell as being obsessed with the thread translates as actually a person disagreeing with what you post and your posting style and not cutting you slack about it.

When I provided evidence of Hasbara activity on this board, in the last thread that ended up in the Firepit, you ignored it. So you have double-standards.

The evidence you provided was sketchy and regarding a poster who was long gone. I did not agree with what you seemed to be implying by raising the issue.


Not only was the evidence was clear and accurate; it was specific, measurable, time based and personal. It was also not about a poster 'long gone' - a terminology you use for a Hasbara poster but not for others.


If you think jakell is an infiltrating fascist, complain to Jeff. I received the same treatment from you when I expressed an interest in a) Icke and the b) Annunaki and the c) history of the Rothschilds, you know? It took about three years before you got I might be interesting in
a) How people make patterns of novel data b) Ancient Aliens and c) Systemic power concentration in the global financial ecosystem - and it's dangers - and I had to face a fucking years long deluge of posts from semi-literate egomaniac like Tony Fucking Greenstein.

I'm honestly still not sure what to think about your support of and interest in these topics. Quite honestly, if I were choosing anti-racist allies, you would not be my first pick. Also, I am in general agreement with Tony Greenstein regarding BDS, alleged friends of Palestinian Liberation like Israel Shamir and Gilad Atzmon, etc.

As to jakell, I do think he smells kinda funny but he hasn't yet revealed so much about what he really thinks. What is manifest in his track record here, I don't feel good about much at all...[/quote]
You have changed your mind then, because you WERE sure about my interest in them.

OTOH I see no evidence that YOU are serious about the role of Hasbara in disrupting a board like R.I. and no clear statement where you stand on these matters at all, which I see as double-standards.

Saying someone
'smells kinda funny'
is a Third Grade level insult

'has not revealed much of what he thinks'
Actually he has. He is clearly a practical ANTI-fascist. He just disagrees with most of the content of your 'critique' deluge, and your process.

Your words are not very nice, because they are doing the same guilt by not -quite- association you do with slad and slim. It is the same behaviour you used towards desertfae (Rachel Begley) when she came here (and especially given the context of investigating her father's murder - was deeply unpleasant), it's like people have to be 'properly credentialed' in your opinion before you are willing to interact with them as peers.

For example, a person reading what you say might infer I am anti-BDS (I'm not), any Palestinian Liberation (anything but), a supporter of Israel Shamir, when I think he is probably some countries Intelligence asset or that I support Atzmon when I actually think he has provocative interesting things to say about IRISH culture.

I do not understand how you could let yourself be associated with an associational thinking cognitive fascist like Greenstein, but that is your bag.
User avatar
Searcher08
 
Posts: 5887
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:21 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby seemslikeadream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:57 pm

Searcher08 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:54 pm wrote:
American Dream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:07 pm wrote:
seemslikeadream » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:52 am wrote:so I'll take that as a no? and that you agree with solace?

I have heard nothing- and it's hard for me to decode what you're really thinking about jewish bankers, holocaust revisionism and the like.


I'm not sure that you know just how truly awful that sounds.

For myself, it is a shocking example of the non-commital, the dishonest, the deceitful, the underhanded, the duplicitous, the double-dealing, the two-faced, the dissembling, the insincere, the false, the untruthful, the mendacious, not candid, not frank, sly, sneaky, tricky, scheming, calculating, designing, devious, unscrupulous, the economical with the truth, the terminologically inexact , the hollow-hearted, the double-faced, the truthless, the unveracious

Personally, I think Slad, you are a fucking anti-Semite Mouthy Mick bitch who needs to STFU and make me a sandwich. :rofl2


Image
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

PreviousNext

Return to Data & Research Compilations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests