A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:14 pm

This post follows from my previous two posts containing personal observatins on the far right in the UK,

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=22490&start=465#p535229

I'm repeating the third part to keep the whole in line with the thread topic, the cyberspace bit is a slight, but necessary digression

-------------------------------

jakell » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:20 pm wrote:
As the BNP were slowly going from strength to strength during the 2000's, I sort of took my eye off the ball a bit and assumed they would plateau at some point. They had moderated their image somewhat, but couldnt do this much more without changing their core beliefs.
They came to my attention again in 2009, and to serious political observers, when they won two European Parliament seats, at this point they also received the traditional British welcome to the political big league...

Image

Andrew Brons also got an EU seat, but no egg.


I said above that I took my eye off the BNP for a while, and this was mainly because my perspective got widened considerably by the subject of Peak Oil. What made me glance back in their direction was that Nick Griffin seemed to be the only 'politician' talking publicly about Peak Oil. This could have been written off as their characteristic bandwagon jumping, but their EU success in addition made me want to take a good look this time.

The phrase "a good look", is significant here, because I had become aware of a medium that enabled this in a way that hadn't existed before... internet presence. This was still in it's infancy back in 2002 when they made their first big leap, and even when it started to become more widespread, these particular folks were behind the curve.


I'm going to spend the next post in this series talking about cyberspace's potential to open up a useful new front in combating fascism, especially at it's core, and about how this had been woefully unappreciated by traditional anti-fascists....


-------------------------------

On encountering the far right on the BDF, my attitudes and outlook changed as I went along ie I didn't have a thought out strategy on starting there and initially was just on a fact finding mission. I also saw the UK far right as being far more monolithic that it turned out to be, in other words, the view of your average anti-fascist who has only ever encountered them in polarised and hostile situations, and from which little new is taken away.

Even though I entered that arena with certain expectation, I'm going to give an overview from hindsight, because I learned a fair bit there in the end. My fondness for the number 3 means I naturally feel inclined to come up with 3 points, so if you are intending to tackle the far right in cyberspace the I would advise to:

1) Find a forum where the far right mingle with ordinary folks (BDF was perfect for this), because here you are likely to find allies (not strict antis who are often unsubtle and tend to get in the way) and see different flavours of the right too, like my 'British Nationalism vs White Nationalism' mentioned earlier. Forget one dimensional freakshows like Stormfront unless you are a masochist and want a farily swift exit with nothing achieved.

2) Have a persona where you can be yourself. This might be difficult for the allergic antis, but they're not likely to last long anyway. If you want to get proper 'bites', and actually learn stuff, you are going to be there for the long haul (well over a year, I was there four years). If you get cornered, tell them you are an anarchist, of course, it helps if you already are one, so my problem was lessened in this respect.

3) Be prepared to be intellectually challenged and hear some stuff that will affect you emotionally. this is not like standing on the street slinging poo from a safe distance (ie most AF activity), this gets up close and inside your head. If you are overconfident that these people are mere knuckledraggers and that you will have an easy ride, forget it, they will come from emotional, intellectual and personal angles and not play fair. Be cool, don't get flustered, and don't engage in to much speculation, deal with what they write, not with what you think they mean.

This last sentence is fairly good forum practice in general, but especially in a hostile environment. I'm going to leave it at three points now, but may have some more to add next time...
Last edited by jakell on Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:24 pm

I felt inspired to look this up- seems pretty right on to me:


White nationalism

Criticism

Anti-racist organizations generally have argued that ideas such as white pride and white nationalism exist merely to provide a sanitized public face for white supremacy. Kofi Buenor Hadjor argues that black nationalism is a response to racial discrimination, while white nationalism is the expression of white supremacy Other critics have described white nationalism as a "...somewhat paranoid ideology" based upon the publication of pseudo-academic studies.

Carol M. Swain argues that the unstated goal of white nationalism is to appeal to a larger audience, and that most white nationalist groups promote white separatism and racial violence. Opponents accuse white nationalists of hatred, racial bigotry and destructive identity politics. White supremacist groups have a history of perpetrating hate crimes, particularly against people of Jewish or African descent. Examples include the lynching of black people by the Ku Klux Klan (KKK).

Some critics argue that white nationalists — while posturing as civil rights groups advocating the interests of their racial group — frequently draw on the nativist traditions of the KKK and the British National Front. Critics have noted the anti-semitic rhetoric used by white nationalists, as highlighted by the promotion of conspiracy theories such as Zionist Occupation Government.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_nationalism
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:50 pm

Being white, therefore, doesn’t mean being privileged, in part because, as I have argued, many, if not most, of the advantages of whiteness in a racist world are better understood as rights that we actively prevent nonwhites from sharing. Being white doesn’t mean being privileged, it means being an oppressor. The appeal to privilege, well-intentioned and even insightful as it has been, has made it easier for whites to ignore this reality. Anti-racist praxis for whites is thus not a call to recognize and reject white privilege, but rather a call to take responsibility for our role as oppressors, a role which is, from the ground up, constituted by and a legitimating practice of the systems of racial oppression that give whiteness its meaning in the first place. While taking responsibility in this context may certainly require individual resistance to our role as oppressors, it first and foremost means contesting and resisting those systems that give that role its meaning and efficacy.

—Michael Monahan, “Toward a Critical Appraisal of Privilege”
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:23 am

Even though it's a quote of a quote of a quote, I would question the above assertion that "the unstated goal of white nationalism is to appeal to a larger audience"

I have rarely seen them be reticent about this, in fact it's one of their key goals, the larger part of the foundation of their beliefs rests on the ability to appeal to the majority, and ideally, all whites. This can be used against them as I mentioned in an earlier post:

jakell » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:02 pm wrote:

...........Another very simple and effective way to argue against WN's is to play on their insistence that the views of whites are supposedly paramount. Then all that is needed is to point out the vast number of whites who are not receptive to their views**, or even in strident opposition.

This might sound like a small point, but it does open up a logical contradiction in their views that is hard to reconcile, the only way they can do this is to try to explain away the views of certain whites (they have some quite creative ways of doing this ), but this all leads away from their insistance that race is paramount

** This nags at them constantly, not the opposition part, they sort of dig that, but the general non acceptance part

" Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism"
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:13 am

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-and-the-rebirth-of-fascism-in-europe/5366852

In an attempt to pry Ukraine out of the Russian sphere of influence, the US-EU-NATO alliance has, not for the first time, allied itself with fascists. Of course, for decades, millions in Latin America were disappeared or murdered by fascist paramilitary forces armed and supported by the United States. The mujahideen of Afghanistan, which later transmogrified into Al Qaeda, also extreme ideological reactionaries, were created and financed by the United States for the purposes of destabilizing Russia. And of course, there is the painful reality of Libya and, most recently Syria, where the United States and its allies finance and support extremist jihadis against a government that has refused to align with the US and Israel. There is a disturbing pattern here that has never been lost on keen political observers: the United States always makes common cause with right wing extremists and fascists for geopolitical gain.

The situation in Ukraine is deeply troubling because it represents a political conflagration that could very easily tear the country apart less than 25 years after it gained independence from the Soviet Union. However, there is another equally disturbing aspect to the rise of fascism in that country – it is not alone.


let's just remember who are the BIG players here...who are supporting the little people that carry out their wishes

he who is without sin cast the first stone...he who lives/supports/pays taxes and repeats the benefits of his country that supports this fascism is NOT without sin.....has no business complaining/endless pontificating about the spread of fascism across the world...for ye are an enabler...take responsibility for your own actions/inactions of your comfy life you lead...quit blaming everyone else...quit the deflecting.....
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:49 am

seemslikeadream » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:13 am wrote:
.he who lives/supports/pays taxes and repeats the benefits of his country that supports this fascism is NOT without sin.....


This is an important part of the story.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby RocketMan » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:53 am

I've been following this thread sporadically for some time now... but I can't get my mind around what the disagreement is about. What's the bone of contention here? Fascism/far-right/Islamophobia are trumped up threats in Europe, is that it?
-I don't like hoodlums.
-That's just a word, Marlowe. We have that kind of world. Two wars gave it to us and we are going to keep it.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:56 am

American Dream » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:49 am wrote:
seemslikeadream » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:13 am wrote:
.he who lives/supports/pays taxes and repeats the benefits of his country that supports this fascism is NOT without sin.....


This is an important part of the story.



you're so funny AD...pages and pages of blaming other peoples children but when it comes down to the genius all you've got is 7 words
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:57 am

This report is by no means perfect but does point towards very important emerging trends:


http://www.irr.org.uk/news/the-truth-ab ... -violence/

A shocking new report documents patterns of far-right violence across Europe.

As concerns mount about the violence of elected far-right politicians in Greece, and Sol Campbell warns black and Asian football fans against travelling to Poland and the Ukraine for Euro 2012, the Institute of Race Relations reveals that the problem of far-right violence is not confined to a few European countries. On the contrary, a new geography of racism is fast developing as extremists set up shop in rural areas, towns and city neighbourhoods in every country of Europe.

Pedlars of Hate: the violent impact of the European far Right brings together over 100 cases, mostly from EU countries, but also Switzerland and Norway, which documents patterns of violence, from the peddling of hate online and the drawing up of lists of ‘national traitors’, to violence, arson and murder on the streets, and the stockpiling of weapons in preparation for ‘race war’.

While the principal targets of far-Right violence are Muslims in western Europe and the Roma in eastern Europe, anti-black racism and anti-Semitism are also very much on the increase. And in a trend that is in danger of rapidly escalating as the economic crisis deepens, attacks on Social Democrats, Left politicians, academics and journalists that report on the far Right around Europe are intensifying too.

Amongst the 100 cases documented in this report:

Experts on extremism in the Czech Republic choose no longer to appear as court witnesses because of constant abuse and threats from the far Right.

Academics in Finland studying immigration and integration issues withdraw from public discussion rather than face intimidation and threats to their families.

A former leader of the Social Democrats grouping in the Bundesrat is beaten senseless in Vienna on the official Auschwitz memorial day as the police reportedly, look on.

A Roma woman gives birth prematurely after far-right militia dressed in black uniforms stage provocative marches in villages across north-eastern Hungary.


Other cases documented in Pedlars of Hate reveal that the state services which should protect the public are failing, and in some of the most disturbing cases, colluding with the far Right. For instance:

A Danish police officer is investigated after it was alleged that he was the principal organiser of a secretive far-right network that had established an extensive ‘traitor archive’ entitled ‘The Great Memory’.

An undercover officer from the German intelligence services is present as a young Turkish man is murdered by the terrorist National Socialist Underground.

One estimate suggests that up to half of all police officers in Greece voted for the Golden Dawn in the May elections. A Hungarian police trades union newsletter declares anti-Semitism the ‘duty of every Hungarian homeland lover’.

A serving British soldier writes on Facebook about bashing the skulls of ‘dirty, rotten rodents’ only to be found guilty of firebombing a mosque in the UK.

A former French soldier describes his act of vandalising Muslim graves as act of resistance to the ‘Arabic and Islamic invasion’.


‘We hope those politicians who respond to the economic crisis by offering nationalism or ultra-patriotism as a palliative will think again,’ said Liz Fekete, the author of the report. ‘In the 1930s, Jews were accused of having a “decadent culture” which was unpatriotic and cosmopolitan. Today, those nostalgic for a racially pure society use “multiculturalism” as a synonym or shorthand for cosmopolitanism, and this is another reason why those politicians who find a scapegoat for society’s ills in the multicultural society should think before they speak.’

RELATED LINKS

Pedlars of Hate: the violent impact of the European far Right can be downloaded here (pdf file, 984kb)
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:00 am

and now back you your regularly scheduled programing ......blame everybody else


I think you got your answer RocketMan
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:09 am

Here's a critique of state sponsored multicultural agenda, written by Kenan Malik, an anti-fascist with long, long years of history in the Asian Youth Movement:


http://libcom.org/library/multicultural ... enan-malik

Multiculturalism undermines diversity - Kenan Malik

Kenan Malik distinguishes between the positive lived experience of a multicultural society, and multicultural state policies which foster division.

Image

‘Has multiculturalism been good or bad for Britain?’ It’s a question to which the answers have become increasingly polarised in recent years. For some, multiculturalism expresses the essence of a modern, liberal society. For others, it has helped create an anxious, fragmented nation.

Part of the difficulty with this debate is that both sides confuse the lived experience of diversity, on the one hand, with multiculturalism as a political process, on the other. The experience of living in a society transformed by mass immigration, a society that is less insular, more vibrant and more cosmopolitan, is positive.

As a political process, however, multiculturalism means something very different. It describes a set of policies, the aim of which is to manage diversity by putting people into ethnic boxes, defining individual needs and rights by virtue of the boxes into which people are put, and using those boxes to shape public policy. It is a case, not for open borders and minds, but for the policing of borders, whether physical, cultural or imaginative.

The conflation of lived experience and political policy has proved highly invidious. On the one hand, it has allowed many on the right – and not just on the right - to blame mass immigration for the failures of social policy and to turn minorities into the problem. On the other hand, it has forced many traditional liberals and radicals to abandon classical notions of liberty, such as an attachment to free speech, in the name of defending diversity.

The irony of multiculturalism as a political process is that it undermines much of what is valuable about diversity as lived experience. When we talk about diversity, what we mean is that the world is a messy place, full of clashes and conflicts. That’s all for the good, for such clashes and conflicts are the stuff of political and cultural engagement.

But the very thing that’s valuable about diversity – the clashes and conflicts that it brings about – is the very thing that worries many multiculturalists. They seek to minimise such conflicts by parceling people up into neat ethnic boxes, and policing the boundaries of those boxes in the name of tolerance and respect. Far from minimising conflict what this does is generate a new set of more destructive, less resolvable conflicts.

To say that clashes and conflicts can be good does not mean, of course, that every clash and conflict is a good. Political conflicts are often useful because they repose social problems in a way that asks: ‘How can we change society to overcome that problem?’ We might disagree on the answer, but the debate itself is a useful one.

Multiculturalism, on the other hand, by reposing political problems in terms of culture or faith, transforms political conflicts into a form that makes them neither useful nor resolvable. Rather than ask, for instance, ‘What are the social roots of racism and what structural changes are required to combat it?’, it demands recognition for one’s particular identity, public affirmation of one’s cultural difference and respect for one’s cultural and faith beliefs.

Multicultural policies have come to be seen as a means of empowering minority communities and giving them a voice. In reality such policies have empowered not individuals but ‘community leaders’ who owe their position and influence largely to their relationship with the state. Multicultural policies tend to treat minority communities as homogenous wholes, ignoring class, religious, gender and other differences, and leaving many within those communities feeling misrepresented and, indeed, disenfranchised.

As well as ignoring conflicts within minority communities, multicultural policies have often created conflicts between them. In allocating political power and financial resources according to ethnicity, such policies have forced people to identify themselves in terms of those ethnicities, and those ethnicities alone, inevitably setting off one group against another.

The logical end point of such policies came with Communities Minister John Denham’s announcement last year of £12m for white working class communities. There are clearly many working class, predominantly white, communities crying out for resources, not because they are white, because they have been politically and financially abandoned over the past decade.

Denham’s £12m will, however, do little to solve any of the structural problems facing such communities, such as a lack of jobs and social housing. What it will do is reinforce the idea that whites have an identity, and a set of interests, that is distinct from the identity and interests of other groups.

The aim of Denham’s policy is clearly to ward off the BNP in areas such Barking and Dagenham in East London. Its consequence, however, will be to feed the BNP’s own pursuit of white identity, and to legitimise the idea that such identity needs privileging. And that is perhaps the biggest indictment of multicultural policies: they have helped turn racism into another form of cultural identity.

To challenge all this, we need to separate the debate about immigration and diversity, on the one hand, from that about multiculturalism, on the other, and defend the one, but oppose the other. The lived experience of diversity has been good for Britain. Multiculturalism has been bad.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby RocketMan » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:10 am

seemslikeadream » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:00 pm wrote:and now back you your regularly scheduled programing ......blame everybody else


I think you got your answer RocketMan


You find it irritating that AD is worried about the rise/increased respectability of fascistic/far-rightist sentiments?
-I don't like hoodlums.
-That's just a word, Marlowe. We have that kind of world. Two wars gave it to us and we are going to keep it.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:12 am

RocketMan » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:10 am wrote:
seemslikeadream » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:00 pm wrote:and now back you your regularly scheduled programing ......blame everybody else


I think you got your answer RocketMan


You find it irritating that AD is worried about the rise/increased respectability of fascistic/far-rightist sentiments?



no ..I find it irritating that he continually deflects where the responsibility ultimately lies for that rise...and just who is most hurt by it


how many years does it take to blame other people?......7 ....8 years...one would think he'd run out of people by now




viewtopic.php?f=8&t=33770&start=240
by IanEye » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:03 am
FourthBase » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:42 am wrote:
That is the terrible and secret fate of all life.
You’re trapped in a nightmare you keep waking up into.



the slave thinks he is released from bondage
only to find a stronger set of chains
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:12 am

RocketMan » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:53 pm wrote:I've been following this thread sporadically for some time now... but I can't get my mind around what the disagreement is about. What's the bone of contention here? Fascism/far-right/Islamophobia are trumped up threats in Europe, is that it?


That's because there isn't really one, there are outward differences of opinion that might have been on their way to being resolved by now, but discussion (by me) was proscribed at one point and I have been sticking to the letter of this until it is lifted.

As to when we get some movement..... . . . Rocket Man. I think it's gonna be a long long time.

(been waiting a while to say that)
Last edited by jakell on Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

Postby Searcher08 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:12 am

Saurian Tail » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:20 pm wrote:
Belligerent Savant » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:04 pm wrote:
Perelandra » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:55 pm wrote:
Searcher08 wrote:GENERAL DISCUSSION IS A *DISCUSSION* FORUM
If you do not like that, please either post in the Data Dump or set up your own website. This isnt TIDS and if you dont like critique, well sorry, this is not YOUR private "anti-fascist board".
Exactly right. This posting style is rude and disruptive. One could say AD is trolling GD.

concur.

Yep ... agreed.


My experience is that trying to sustain / develop a conversation in this thread is like having a meeting without any agenda, run by a person who is handing out large amounts of new information in the form of long, quite dense material, presented without context (I am left wondering - "is this NEXT post a kind of passing FYI? Is it meant to be densely read? Does it relate to previous posts? Has the thread creator read it himself?)

Context is very important for making sense of new information.
Simply collecting new information is NOT ENOUGH. One needs to decide what it MEANS.
Simply posting an ambiguous thread title followed by long articles doesnt create clarity on what is wanted or expected from the thread.

If you leave out that by having a CopyPasta spree of long article after long article, without a clear context - it is just turning GD into an uncollated, meaning-free mess for the reader, a collection of items on AD's theme de jour. If he wants to do that, it isnt General Discussion.

My issues are almost all at the level of process and information management, rather than content. It is leading to a LACK of clarity, discussion and dialogue. The meaning of things changes over time - yesterday's newspaper becomes today's firestarter with nothing more than the passage of time happening.
I think of GD like a cafe. TIDS is like a big pile of essays and art in a corner. We have as a Board allowed it a space and sometimes go and sit and read silently over there.
This thread is not like that.

The General Discussion cafe is not going to be turned into AD's personal interest, randomised, meaning-free discussion-free library.


edited to add:
If you want to see an example of what I'm talking about, please look at the next post.
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