Hobbit!

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Re: Hobbit!

Postby dada » Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:37 pm

I had the Hobbit read to me when I was very little, the book with pictures from the Rankin/Bass cartoon throughout. I didn't see the cartoon until much later. I loved it so much, when most kids would make a pillow fort, I would cover chairs with a blanket and call it a Hobbit hole. I also revisit the Lord of the Rings and Silmarillion every ten years, maybe more often. Last time I read some of the books of early versions of things that Christopher Tolkien has compiled, lots of fun, seeing the creative process. I thought the lotr movies were fine, saw the extended DVDs a few years ago. I was definitely surprised when Saruman and Wormtongue both met their demise at orthanc. Changes the whole end game. I guess the scouring of the Shire narrative was too much to get into, something had to go. But the last time I read the books, that whole part really hit me, so not seeing it in the movie really stood out to me.

I can see splitting the Hobbit in two, there's some natural places to divide it, possibly at Beorn's house, outside of Mirkwood. But three parts? Even adding necromancer scenes... I guess I'm not sure how that would work. Well, I'm sure it will turn out fine.

After this, I'd love to see some Silmarillion movies. So many of the stories would work well as movies.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Hobbit!

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:28 am

I'm not a huge Tolkien head, but I heard the reason they kept Tom Bombadil out of the films was because his motivations (and the extent of his power) would be impossible to convey on screen, and he might even come across as an unsympathetic character to those who have not read the books, which a large part (maybe most) of the intended audience had not, and probably still have not.

Viewers get invested in the Fellowship's quest, and are rooting for them against heavy odds, and then this guy turns up and basically says: "Hello, I am a massively powerful timeless force of nature who could probably destroy both Sauron and the Ring without really trying too hard, or at least keep the ring safe in my own domain where no evil one could get it, but I'm not going to because I don't really care and I don't feel like it, byeee! Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!"

Then he goes away and dances in the woods for the rest of the trilogy, more or less.

I can see how this might not really work on screen.
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Re: Hobbit!

Postby Hammer of Los » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:46 am

...

I'm not a huge Tolkien head.


And don't think I didn't notice you dissing Nicol's Merlin.

You better watch your hobblin' step, Mr Ahab.

The dragon's breath is all around you.

It's a good job you make me laugh.

And remind me to have sympathy even for misguided material monarchs.

(T)his guy turns up and basically says: "Hello, I am a massively powerful timeless force of nature who could probably destroy both Sauron and the Ring without really trying too hard, or at least keep the ring safe in my own domain where no evil one could get it, but I'm not going to because I don't really care and I don't feel like it, byeee! Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!"

Then he goes away and dances in the woods for the rest of the trilogy, more or less.


Old Tom simply knows that to everything there is a season.

And a time to every purpose under Heaven.

A time to build up.

A time to break down.

A time to dance.

A time to mourn.

A time to cast away stones.

A time to gather stones together.

Now is the time to gather stones together.

Listen to the Byrds singing both day and night.

Hear the dharma of the dad rock;





...
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Re: Hobbit!

Postby Jeff » Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:17 am

AhabsOtherLeg wrote:Viewers get invested in the Fellowship's quest, and are rooting for them against heavy odds, and then this guy turns up and basically says: "Hello, I am a massively powerful timeless force of nature who could probably destroy both Sauron and the Ring without really trying too hard, or at least keep the ring safe in my own domain where no evil one could get it, but I'm not going to because I don't really care and I don't feel like it, byeee! Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!"

Then he goes away and dances in the woods for the rest of the trilogy, more or less.

I can see how this might not really work on screen.


Ha! Yes, a fine point you make, Mr OtherLeg.

During the Council of Elrond, someone suggests Why don't we just give the thing to Tom? He'll keep it safe. Gandalf says he'd forget about it. And then they move on to other business. If Jackson had tried to adapt that I could imagine some viewers becoming restless at this point.

Bombadil's qualities make him a more natural fit for The Hobbit. As do the early chapters of LOTR, actually, maybe up to Bree. Round about there Tolkien's scope seems to shift to something grander.
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Re: Hobbit!

Postby semper occultus » Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:21 am

...LoTR seemed to started as a straight Hobbit sequel - begun back in 1937 & prompted more by public / publisher demand than his desire to write an epic

as a result it starts aimlessly - leading to a major striuctural flaw as it makes the trilogy unbalanced - FoTR being much longer than the other 2 books with much less happening & probably has accounted for many potential tolkien-heads abandoning the quest before they're even 3 days walk from the Green Dragon without waiting for the rollercoaster to crawl up to the tipping point - odd for such an obsessive re-writer

...Robin Williams was ofcourse being (ent)-mooted as Bombadil at one stage...as was Sean Connery for Gandalf - the latter choice more than sufficient I am sure to have converted Ahab into a pointy-eared & fur-footed tolkien-head

...I was surprised to find that he ever contemplated a sequel to LoTR - it almost seems inevitable now that nothing could possibly come after it :

even more fascinating to see JRRT almost with a deep-politics take on the Fourth Age

The New Shadow was an incomplete sequel (approximately 13 pages) to The Lord of the Rings that Tolkien quickly abandoned. It is set in the time of Eldarion, Elessar's son, approximately 105 years after the Fall of the Dark Tower. In it is mentioned the Dark Tree, and two characters: Saelon and Borlas.

Tolkien commented this on it:
"I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall, but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless — while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors — like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow — but it would have been just that. Not worth doing." ― The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 256)

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The_New_Shadow
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Re: Hobbit!

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:07 am

Hammer of Los wrote:...

I'm not a huge Tolkien head.


And don't think I didn't notice you dissing Nicol's Merlin.

You better watch your hobblin' step, Mr Ahab.


Ah, now, to be fair, I dissed it very mildly, while also saying I enjoyed the performance (and the film) immensely. I did think it was over-the-top, but that's what I liked about it.

Hammer of Los wrote:The dragon's breath is all around you.


Oh, I know, believe me. Closing in every day too.

Hammer of Los wrote:Old Tom simply knows that to everything there is a season.

And a time to every purpose under Heaven.

A time to build up.

A time to break down.

A time to dance.

A time to mourn.


Completely agree, Tom is simply too wise to involve himself in organised warfare, or any kind of power-struggle, which he knows will be an inevitable ancillary part of the Fellowship's quest. He is on the side of right, obviously, and he know's better than anyone what is at stake in the struggle, but he is far past (or above) the point of believing that he can exercise his power for temporal gain without being tainted by the act itself. That's why the Council of Ellrond can't just let him take care of the Ring, like Jeff said. He has no interest in the exercise of power, or items that confer or enhance or channel it, so he would probably just leave it lying around someplace.

The problem with putting that in a film for a modern audience is that it would be like if the Ents had just decided to stay at home and wait to see how things turned out. Half the viewers would be going: "Man, that Treebeard... what a dick. Didn't even show up to help!"

Remember all the bitching over the Giant Eagles at the end of Return of the King, with folk asking why they hadn't helped before? It would've been like that times ten.

A good reason (don't think it's ever stated) why Bombadil can't just directly keep the Ring from Sauron by himself is that Frodo and Sam and the rest have to go through their trial, and he knows that. He's like a God allowing people free will. To solve the whole problem on their behalf would be to deprive them of their essential Sam and Frodo-ness, and men of their men-ness, and elves of their elf-ness, etc. They have to do it under their own steam.

Like Jeff said in the "Movie Scenes That Make You Cry" thread, Sam had to go all the way to Mordor just to gain the courage in himself to ask out a girl. Far-sighted old Tom couldn't possibly take that away from him, or from any of the others.

But again, that would be difficult to get across on screen.

I'm very curious to see what the Hobbit film will be like. I read the book so young that I only have a vague sense-impression of it left, and that impression is one of cosiness and snugness and not all that much really hapening. Film being a dynamic medium, it seems a good idea to incorporate bits of other books that fit, including Bombadil if possible.

Wonder who would play him?
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Re: Hobbit!

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:33 am

semper occultus wrote:Sean Connery for Gandalf - the latter choice more than sufficient I am sure to have converted Ahab into a pointy-eared & fur-footed tolkien-head


I would've set about learning Elvish immediately if this had happened, at the expense of any other study I might've been engaged in at the time.
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Re: Hobbit!

Postby beeline » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:39 pm

Link

BURBANK, Calif. - Peter Jackson is adding a third film to what was planned to be the two-part series "The Hobbit."

The director of the Oscar-winning "The Lord of the Rings" movies said Monday that after viewing a cut of the first film and part of the second that there was room for a third.

Jackson says in a statement that a lot of J.R.R. Tolkien's tale of Bilbo Baggins would remain untold if a third film wasn't made. The films are set in the fictional world of Middle-earth 60 years before "The Lord of the Rings."

"We recognized that the richness of the story of `The Hobbit,' as well as some of the related material in the appendices of `The Lord of the Rings,' gave rise to a simple question: do we tell more of the tale?" Jackson said in a statement. "And the answer from our perspective as filmmakers and fans was an unreserved `yes.' "

"We know how much of the tale of Bilbo Baggins, the Dwarves of Erebor, the rise of the Necromancer, and the Battle of Dol Guldur would remain untold if we did not fully realize this complex and wonderful adventure," he said.

Warner Bros. and MGM will continue their partnership to make the trilogy.

The first film, "The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey," hits theaters Dec. 14, while the second, "The Hobbit: There and Back Again" is set for release on Dec. 13, 2013.

The third film will come out in the summer of 2014.

All three movies are being shot in digital 3-D in New Zealand, which is home to Jackson's Weta Digital special effects house. Principal photography recently finished on the first two films.

Jackson, his wife Fran Walsh, Philippa Boyens and Guillermo del Toro are listed as co-writers of the first two films.
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Re: Hobbit!

Postby Jeff » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:03 pm

On the one hand, I like the thought of spending more time in Jackson's conception of Middle Earth, but surely that's why God made extended home versions. Stretching this to three films seems a touch cash-grabby, and also a little late in the game, artistically, to be making such a huge decision. Like Bilbo told Gandalf, it feels thin, like too little butter scraped across too much bead.
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Re: Hobbit!

Postby Project Willow » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:07 pm

Jeff wrote:Stretching this to three films seems a touch cash-grabby, and also a little late in the game, artistically, to be making such a huge decision.


Yes, this was my thought too, unless the idea somehow influenced his film work already, otherwise, how do you do that?
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Re: Hobbit!

Postby Jeff » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:34 pm

There's an interesting thread - for those, like me, interested in this kind of thing - on The One Ring, speculating on the content of the films based upon the release list of official Hobbit movie miniatures.

I've bolded those that most caught and held my attention:


There will be the following boxes in the next years:

Dwarves: Kili & Fili & Longbeard Archers
Dwarves: Bombur with Kettle
Dwarves: Drogo Baggins & The Tavern Maid [Drogo is Frodo's father]
Dwarves: Dáin & Iron Hill Berserkers
Dwarves: King Thráin & Longbeard Vanguard
Dwarves: Young Thorin & Longbeard Mattockguard
Dwarves: King Thrór
Dwarves: Dragon Mithril Company of Dwarves
Dwarves: Dáin Ironfoot & Iron Hill Boar Riders
Dwarves: Dís, Mother of Kili and Fili
Dwarves: Gimli (Stubble)
Dwarves: Samwise Gamgee (Red Book)

Wargs: Dire Warg
Wargs: Grinnah & Mirkwood Werewolves
Wargs: Feral Wolf Pack
Wargs: The Werebeast
Wargs: Lagdush & Orc Wolfcloak Warriors
Wargs: Narzug & Orc Warg-Riders
Wargs: Dol Guldur Orc Overlords
Wargs: Orc Chieftain on Warg
Wargs: Orc Wolfbone Shaman

Dol Guldur: Leaping Spiders / Shiverfang Spiders
Dol Guldur: Spiderlings
Dol Guldur: The Willowhags
Dol Guldur: Bloodwraiths
Dol Guldur: Gwethil
Dol Guldur: The Necromancer / Flesh Avatar [Sauron enfleshed]
Dol Guldur: Narzug & Orc Summoner Coven
Dol Guldur: Tomb Wights [Making up for the absence of the barrow wights in FOTR?]
Dol Guldur: Mounted Tomb Wights
Dol Guldur: Saruman & The Ringwraiths
Dol Guldur: Vampire Bat Swarms

White Council: Mounted Rivendell Nobles
White Council: Lindir the Harper
White Council: Arwen & Estel
White Council: Galadriel (Barrel)
White Council: Radagast with Roäc & Swoop
White Council: Galadriel (Water Steed)
White Council: The War Council
White Council: Galadriel & Lórien Drumhooves
White Council: Chief Aravir & Dúnedain Rangers
White Council: Dúnedain Runecaster [I like the inclusion of the Rangers, though I don't remember them in the text.]
White Council: Elrond & Rivendell Spearguard
White Council: Elros & Rivendell Outriders
White Council: Radagast's Chariot / Spellfire Cart
White Council: Cirdan the Shipwright
Mountain Orcs: Azog & Orc Needlers
Mountain Orcs: Azog (Wounded)
Mountain Orcs: Bolg & Great Goblin Bodyguard
Mountain Orcs: Armoured Hill-Trolls / Frenzied Trolls
Mountain Orcs: Orc Stone Thrower

Men of Esgaroth: King Girion
Men of Esgaroth: Fram the Watchman
Men of Esgaroth: The Master of Lake-Town
Men of Esgaroth: Bard & Greystreak Bowmen
Men of Esgaroth: Bain & Quickstrings Gang / Trout Guild Militia
Men of Esgaroth: Alfrid & Loyal Town Guard
Men of Esgaroth: Garf & Footsoldiers of the Dale

Grey Mountain Dragons: Fire-wyrms
Grey Mountain Dragons: Braga & Goldscale Worshippers
Grey Mountain Dragons: Venomblade Assassin
Grey Mountain Dragons: Goldscale Priest
Grey Mountain Dragons: Bofur on Cold-Drake
Grey Mountain Dragons: Dragon Thrall
Grey Mountain Dragons: Money Bags & Hired Knives
Grey Mountain Dragons: Fell Hatchlings

Beornings: Woodmen Healer
Beornings: Fair Daughter
Beornings: Meneldor & Swiftbeak Flock
Beornings: Gorm & Woodmen Axethrowers / Skin-Changers
Beornings: Whisperbark / Gnarlfir
Beornings: Black Bear Pack
Beornings: Enraged Beorn
Beornings: Grimbeorn (Greataxe)

Silvan Elves: Legolas & Mirkwood Fire Archers
Silvan Elves: Mirkwood Warhost
Silvan Elves: King Thranduil (Battle Garb)
Silvan Elves: Tauriel (Mounted)
Silvan Elves: Castellan Amroth

Adventure: Gandalf's Quest
Adventure: The Battle at the East Gate
Adventure: The Fall of Dale
Adventure: The Belltower
Adventure: A Thief in the Night
Adventure: The Clearing of Foul Roots
Adventure: Assault on the Barrows
Adventure: Clash of the Beasts
Adventure: The Last Stand
Adventure: The Raven Hill
Adventure: Thorin's Folly
Adventure: The Battle of Five Armies
Adventure: Breaking the Siege
Adventure: Revenge of the Goblin King
Adventure: Blacksoil Slope
Adventure: The Final Onslaught
Adventure: The Clouds Burst
Adventure: The Ritual
Adventure: The Haunted Tombs
Adventure: The Blight Breach
Adventure: Gollum's Escape

Frodo with Red Book
Smaug the Golden
Gandalf (Dual Sword)
Turin, The Dragonslayer [I could see this making great sense as a flashback to establish the legacy of dragons.]
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Re: Hobbit!

Postby sw » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:54 am

“Saruman believes that it is only great power that can hold evil in check,” Gandalf says. “That is not what I’ve found. I found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I’m afraid, and he gives me courage.”
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Re: Hobbit!

Postby Project Willow » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:47 pm

Still looking forward to it...

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/envelope/cotown/la-et-ct-hobbit-frame-rate-social-media-buzz-20121210,0,2322693.story


'Hobbit' high frame rate getting bad buzz online

By Ben Fritz
December 10, 2012, 12:13 p.m.
Social media buzz leading up to this Friday's release of "The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey" is great. But for a new technology showing the movie at 48 frames per second... not so much.

According to data collected by research firm Fizziology, an overwhelming 60% of the conversation on social media platforms like Twitter and Facebook about the 48 frames per second version of "The Hobbit" -- which will be shown at only about 450 theaters out of 4,000-plus in the U.S. and Canada -- is negative. Only 10% is positive, while 30% is neutral.

"The Hobbit" is the first major studio movie to play at 48 frames per second. For more than 80 years, the industry standard has been 24 frames per second.

48 frames per second is by far the most common complaint about "The Hobbit" on social media, making up 45% of negative conversations. The film's hefty two-hour, 49-minute running time is No. 2 at 13%.

Reviews of the "high frame rate" version of "The Hobbit" have been decidedly mixed, with some critics praising the sharper quality and others saying it looks like a high-definition television show and makes some props and sets look fake.

Some of the social media complaints have also centered on unverified reports that the high frame rate version made some viewers at the New Zealand premiere nauseated. Warner Bros. has denied the claim, and no one has stepped forward publicly with that complaint.

If buzz surrounding 48 frames per second remains negative, few people may choose to see the movie that way. Nonetheless, all signs are that people are eager to see "The Hobbit" one way or another (most theaters will show it at the standard 24 frames per second, either in 2-D or 3-D).

Almost 40% of all sentiment surrounding "The Hobbit" online is positive, according to Fizziology, compared with just 7% that's negative. That data back up very strong numbers in the "tracking" pre-release surveys distributed throughout Hollywood.

As a result, "The Hobbit" is expected to open to more than $100 million this weekend.
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Re: Hobbit!

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:54 pm

Is this still in 3 parts?!

They could have done LoTR in 5-6 parts instead, really now. And had "The Scouring of the Shire," best chapter in the whole work. As it was, Part III was an extreme acceleration. Some very dramatic passages, like Eowyn and Pippin (or is it Merry) taking on Nazgul No. 1, turned into one-minute Transformers-style battles. Despite that, they still found what felt like 20 minutes to an hour for Sam and Frodo to finally get it on, all weepy-like, on the mountain after dropping the ring? And who was the general in charge of the good guys on the last battle? ("Let's mass backwards into a crowded circle on a flat space, totally vulnerable on all sides! Damn it, it's not the STRATEGY or the WEAPONS but the SPIRIT OF THE MAN that wins the war!")
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Re: Hobbit!

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:28 pm

So how much taxpayer money, would you guess, did Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc. need to produce the films based on the J.R.R. Tolkien book? The answer is zero. The studios are investment companies, and the films are almost certain to be immensely profitable.

But now you aren’t thinking like a studio. The real question is: How much taxpayer money can Warner Bros. demand from the government of New Zealand to keep production there (rather than, say, in Australia or the Czech Republic)? That answer turns out to be about $120 million, plus the revision of New Zealand’s labor laws to forbid collective bargaining among film-production contractors, plus the passage of three-strikes Internet-disconnection laws for online copyright infringement, plus enthusiastic and, it turns out, illegal cooperation in the shutdown of the pirate-friendly digital storage site Megaupload and the arrest of its owner, Kim Dotcom.

For keeping Warner Bros. happy, Prime Minister John Key, a former Merrill Lynch currency trader, got a replica magic Hobbit sword from U.S. President Barack Obama and a chance to hang New Zealand’s fortunes on becoming the tourist destination for Middle Earth enthusiasts. What could go wrong?


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-0 ... earth.html

Hollywood poisons everything.
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