RI fathers: Can you tell me about it?

[Joao]

Hello.

Asking for some thoughts and experiences on a pretty unusual and personal topic: fatherhood. My wife and I have been together for 10 years and she's getting very anxious to have kids. I'm finding the idea less and less appealing, however, both because of personal shortcomings which I'd hoped to have better addressed by this point in my life, and more relevant to the board, because the world is a fucked up and already overpopulated place.

Something of a different topic for RI, perhaps, but the crowd here is among the most aware and evolved that I know of, and I respect your opinions. I'd be grateful for anything people would be willing to share on the topic of choosing to reproduce. Input from mothers and those who've chosen not to have kids is quite welcome, as well, but the perspective of fathers would be particularly helpful. My options right now are basically have a kid soon or get divorced. I don't want to do either, and the "It's tough but amazing" line I get from most of my friends and family just sounds like zombie talk.

I realize I'm mostly a lurker and that you don't know me as well as it seems I know many of you. so please pardon such a personal request. I won't necessarily seek to respond to every post in the thread (if there are any), but they'll all surely be valuable. Thank you in advance.

[tapitsbo]

That sounds like a horrible, tough situation. If having a kid is more important to her than staying with you, why not let her leave and have a kid with somebody who wants one?

If she is willing to have a kid with you, should your unwillingness to father one not prevail, but willing to divorce you if it does, who's to say there won't be a divorce after the child is born at some point, should she decide any given "shortcomings" justify it?

Is she realistically informed about your degree of unwillingness?

[Joao]

Cheers. Yeah, maybe going separate ways will ultimately be the best thing and obviously I'm getting a bit desperate by consulting a conspiracy forum, but I do love her like nobody else I've ever met and I'd like to stay together. I thought with enough time that I'd come around to the idea of having kids. Still hoping that might happen, but if the situation were clearer a few years ago then yes, we probably would've (should've) separated then. I was selfish. And while it's not the foremost thing to consider when making this decision, she's not getting any younger either--by the time we get divorced and she meets somebody new, the clock could be close to running out for her. That doesn't obligate me, I guess, but I really want to be sure all other possibilities are exhausted before going nuclear.

And no, there's no guarantee that we won't get divorced at some point even if we do reproduce. By "shortcomings," I basically mean who the hell am I to be somebody's father. That's another topic, though. For the record, we can afford it and I've never been officially diagnosed as criminally insane. She's aware of my feelings, yes--we're going to counseling about it.

Anyway, many people seem to really love being fathers. Kind of hoping some of the other thought criminal infidels here might have experience which resonates more than that of my meatspace acquaintances. I'm challenged to see the point in creating another surplus extracting resource to serve the people who own this planet.

[minime]

I'm finding the idea less and less appealing, however, both because of personal shortcomings which I'd hoped to have better addressed by this point in my life, and more relevant to the board, because the world is a fucked up and already overpopulated place.

Earth is an incredibly beautiful place, almost beyond belief, and overflowing with promise, though of course you would never know it by reading RigorousIntuition.ca.

If you and your other have just one child between you in your lifetimes, you will have more than fulfilled your duty, so to speak, to populate--and depopulate--the planet.

If you don't like children, or are anxious about the responsibility, or the loss of freedom, that's another thing. If that's what it is, see it for what it is.

Not perfect enough to parent?

Join the human race.


If you're lucky, it will be a boy and a girl, whatever it's sexual expression.

[Joao]

Thanks. Gonna see if I can avoid adding posts just to say so every time somebody responds, but know that all of your thoughts are appreciated.

[Nordic]

It's the best thing ever. When it happens, you cross a rubicon into a new life. Everything changes but it's for the better. Unless you're a raging alcoholic or drug addict or you have violent anger management problems you'll be fine.

And while I understand the idea that the world is fucked up so why bring children into it, think of it this way: Nobody is going to fix this planet except for the new generation. Our kids are literally the only hope for humanity.

My advice: just go ahead and jump.

I wasn't "ready" for my son. If anyone had asked I would have said "maybe in a few years". But it happened and it was the best thing ever.

[stefano]

the "It's tough but amazing" line I get from most of my friends and family just sounds like zombie talk.

Ha. That's just about the only thing a parent can say to a non-parent... It's really impossible to explain why the amazing things are amazing, when they're objectively pretty arbitrary. My daughter made my day yesterday when she tried and failed to wink one eye. Too silly, but that's how it is.

So those things mean that I can never regret having had children (we've got two), but I'm also aware that I wouldn't have missed those things if I hadn't had them - I'd have been unaware of what they would have brought into my life. And I do often think of what I could have done with all the extra time and money. I could have been the cool uncle... but I probably wouldn't have. I'd more likely have turned into an old fool who drinks too much and embarrasses himself when he thinks he's got a chance with the waitress.

As others have said, no one is every ready for it. We had our first when we did because my wife was keen then, I'd also have wanted to wait especially for financial reasons. But then both my and my wife's careers started doing well, and now we'll probably be all right, materially. I can absolutely guarantee that that was cos of the kids. There's a magic to making that transition - the responsibility just makes you better, as Nordic said.

I won't presume to give you advice, I just wanted to put some thoughts out there, and to tell you that 'tough but amazing' is really how it is.

[backtoiam]

My options right now are basically have a kid soon or get divorced. I don't want to do either, and the "It's tough but amazing" line I get from most of my friends and family just sounds like zombie talk.

Same thing happened to me and I said "no" and walked away. I didn't appreciate the coercion that was used to force me into having kids before I was ready. I figured that if I gave into it the same coercion would be used later in the relationship to force me to do things I also was not ready for.

It is a little bit tough and amazing but being tied to someone that will use coercion with a child involved would be stressful.

[Dioneo]

I was in the same situation as you. I deferred to my wife, and now we have two daughters.

I was not ready. I was never gonna be ready.

Among the many, many, many reasons I am so happy that I deferred to her, which in retrospect was one of the few good decisions I have ever made in my life: it is the only time I have experienced unconditional love in my life. Not from them to me, mind you, though that is wonderful and also a first, but from me to them. Being able to experience unconditional love for another human being has enriched my life beyond measure. I never, ever have to wonder whether I love them, or how much. It's just yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And through this experience I've also learned to love my wife.

I hope you make the right decision for you. It's not easy. I searched my heart beforehand and just came up empty. I just had to say fuck it, why not.

On a rather personal note, I was adopted at birth, and so my two children are the only other human beings I know to whom I am related by blood, so that's kind of an extra bonus.

Good luck, Joao

[Nordic]

A big yes to the unconditional love thing. Which opens up so many doors for your own enlightenment.

Not the least of which is this: why can you not love yourself the same way you love your own child.

That can completely change your life right there.

You can also start looking at everyone you meet as somebody's child. And realizing there's no reason you can't love them that way also.

We are all capable of limitless love. I just figured that out a couple of months ago. If you go there, you may find yourself in (a cliche to call it this but it's the most descriptive thing) a sea of love. And that's basically God. God is love.

[Joao]

RI fathers have weird suicide habit that may surprise you

An RI fathers Invitation to Collective Suicide

Fifth-Graders Arrested in Alleged RI Fathers Bomb Plot

Fifth-Graders Surround RI Fathers on Eve of Collective Suicide

I never, ever have to wonder whether I love them, or how much. It's just yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And through this experience I've also learned to love my wife.

Thank you, everyone. Not least of all for the black humor. The responses are helpful and meaningful.

And that may be the post of the year from identity (via the "Splicing adjacent thread titles" thread).

[brainpanhandler]

the world is a fucked up and already overpopulated place.

I've never had kids. Lots of reasons for that. Occasionally feel a twinge of regret, but there are distinct and obvious advantages as well.

But yah... the world is a fucked up and already overpopulated place. We've made it that way. Is there anybody here who does not believe western civilization is on a course of utter chaos and collapse? Climate change in your child's lifetime, presuming you have one in the next couple of years and they live into their sixties, will turn civilization as we know it into a living hell. Couple that with a sociopathic, utterly rapacious and conscienceless 1% that has managed in preparation for the big dying to acquire complete control of all the levers of power and you a have a recipe for hell on earth. Not to mention... oh fuck it. Have a kid. Maybe it'll turn out alright.

[82_28]

My brother for some reason has already had four kids. So I figure I'm good as far as dysfunctional bloodline.

Regrettably we had some abortion when I was in my early 20s. This I absolutely regret. At the time it was a hurdle I and my girlfriend (still best friend) could not handle. Does it make me still feel awful to this day? Yep. I'd have some 20 year old motherfucker right now asking me to buy him/her beer. Woulda coulda shoulda. But I will say the men that I know who have kids are all unanimously "100% great" to have the little rugrats in their lives.

I'm good with kids. Almost too good. As a male, you have to kinda make it look like you don't immediately adore them in interest of not coming off as a creep. I think something was written about it several years ago as far as some study that most men will not help a lost child due to fear of being accused. But that is not the topic at hand as far as your question.

Two of my brother's kids are no longer his "own" and he has to wait until they're 18 to ever talk to them again. How fucked up is that? But I would say keep that in mind!

[brekin]

I think it might be good to ask yourself whether your reservations are more along the lines of fearing you won't be good enough parent/provider or lack of interest in being a parent. If it is the former then I think that shows you care enough to do a good job whereas the latter is not going to improve with a little person stealing all your sleep, money and free time. I've seen many people change for the better once they've become a parent but there is nothing sadder than a casual or neglectful parent. And with technology today it is pretty easy to be one. Also, you should consider what happens if your partner is not ready to really be a parent or something would happen to her. Many people who want and are clambering for a child don't understand the sacrifice and life change it brings. I tend to overestimate and overthink things and I was basically hit flat footed. You know the saying, "Everyone has a plan until they are hit."? Well to rephrase a bit it is, "Everyone has a plan until they have a kid." Kids are a huge test for a relationship financially, intimacy wise, free time wise, friendship wise, career, etc that is all going to change.

You never know really how someone is going to do until they are in it. But don't have a kid to do anyone a favor because (usually) she is wanting a father not just a sperm donor and if there is resentment/blame around not wanting a kid, the resentment/blame around not being a good enough dad or family husband is thousand times worse. Your unresolved issues now are just a prelude to the fights that you will have when both of you haven't slept well in weeks. And you really don't know yourself or your partner until you have a kid. Your child is going to be the priority for a long time and a full time job/calling that the rest of the world really won't care or assist with at all.

I say this as someone who thinks being a father is one of the best things that has ever happened in my life and I worried about being ready/it being the right time. In retrospect though everything else really seems like bullshit in comparison. Being a parent is the great prioritizer. Was Kennedy killed by Oswald, Dulles or Khrushchev? Interesting, but fuck if I care right now, I've got to find my kids other shoe. Once you have a kid, (hopefully) you tap into a greater reality of nurturing and helping a little person thrive. That is direct change you will see that will hopefully live on after you. No matter what else you do in the life that will be the greatest and deepest influence you will have on anyone. This is something that really is more important than a lot of things that we think are important. In fact, one of my prejudices is I tend to view non-parents differently. In many ways, imho, they seem to really not have a foundation in their life and so are chasing holograms of meaning and connection that are basically provided by parenthood and being a family.

I wish you luck in your dilemma. I don't think anyone is every ready to be a parent or knows if it is the right time but once that babies head breaches you need to be committed to the work and be one hell of a on the job learner.

P.S. Figure out your childcare plan now.

[Belligerent Savant]

.

Whatever sentiments I'd pass along have essentially been shared in astute and touching fashion by others (Nordic, Dioneo, Brekin, Stefano et al.).

My scenario was similar to Nordic/Dioneo's, in that I believed (at the time) that I was NOT ready for fatherhood. Indeed, my now-wife and I were merely dating at the time; she was the first "significant other" I moved in/lived with. I was 30 yrs old, generally an independent-minded fellow who enjoyed my moments of solitude/"freedom". I also had my reservations about raising a child (or children) in this imperfect* world.

(*euphemism)

She informed me of the "surprise" news (her pregnancy) while we were laying on the couch together watching The Truman Show. We both agreed to take some time to think things through and decide how we'd want to proceed. Similar to Nordic's scenario, I didn't feel ready. I presumed it'd be at least a few more years before I'd need to consider such a scenario. Even leading up to my first child's birth, I had my doubts, but as cliche as this may sound, the moment I held our first child -- our first daughter -- in my arms, whatever fears/trepidation washed away, replaced with an overwhelming feeling of pure/unconditional love and joy, and gratitude.

Of course, my life changed from that point forward. I couldn't simply concern myself wholly with my own needs/interests anymore --- and that was a good thing, for a variety of reasons.

The world remains tragic, but it also continues to showcase elements of beauty in numerous manifestations. That won't ever change. I am forever thankful for that "surprise" event in my life, and how it shifted my perspective.