Dangerous Enemies

by **slimmouse** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:52 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>That has got to win an award for the single stupidest post very put on this board. Congratulations.<hr></blockquote> Im obviously in very good company then. All I do is expose the major players in the current fourth Reich for the murdering fascists that they are, and Im called a Nazi Racist <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"> Hows that for the height of stupidity ? Or should that read unbridled, unabashed hypocrisy. Ive certainly seen more of my fair share of that from those on this board casting such aspersions have I not ? Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=slimmouse@rigorousintuition>slimmouse</A> at: 11/25/05 3:57 pm

by **proldic** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:29 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>All I do is expose the major players in the current fourth Reich for the murdering fascists that they are, and Im called a Nazi Racist<hr></blockquote> but you have been saying that the major players in international finance are jews they're not that's what makes you a nazi

by **slimmouse** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:58 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>but you have been saying that the major players in international finance are jews<hr></blockquote> Yet another out and out piss poor translation of what Ive ever actually said. But hey, when did that ever stop you ? I dont EVEN KNOW who all the major players are in international Banking other than the Rothschilds. Or is that enough for you to reach youre shameful conclusion ? I wouldnt be in the slightest bit surprised. Perhaps youd like me to get you a list ? Meanwhile, Since when have Kissinger, Brzezinski, Perle, Strauss and other such fascists been bankers ? What I actually said was that I agreed with DE when he said that there is a traditionally automatic association between Jews and Banking. Which is why the topic of the hijacking of the fed appears to be a subject hardly ever mentioned on this board, and certainly not given the attention it deserves. Why might that be ? I have asked repeatedly for clarification that the forces behind international banking are responsible for as much of the misery of the world today as anyone. An indisputable fact. The silence for some strange reason has been deafening. Even from the fucking "communist" lobby. I have identified many of major names involved in the current 4th reich as being the major protagonists of not only anti semitism, but racism of any manner of forms. And I have to listen to apologists for these people like yourself and your little triumverate accusing ME of racism !! Unabashed , unashamed hypocrisy, not to mention extremely amusing. The ADL will comfortably be proud of you all.

by **Dreams End** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:46 pm

You know, IR, I really can't figure you out. If you can't understand why fascism in the US might be of concern to Israel, then I'm beyond explaining it to you. Those theories are not from Israel. They are directly from the Protocols, which slimmouse endorses (though admits not having read) and from Mein Kempf. I've explained it in great detail before, and I know you've read those threads. Of course every country has elites. That has absolutely nothing to do with anything and clearly you know that, so I'm not sure what your problem is. You have to recognize the stories of international Jewish (or Banker) conspiracies as what they are. Hitler said the same shit. Do you ever wonder about the emphasis on "international bankers" as opposed to "international corporations"? It's because the fascists are careful to distinguish between "financial capitalists" (i.e. Jewish bloodsucking usurers) and "industrial capitalists" (the heroes of the homeland...protected from evil strikers and communists by the Reich.) Hitler was very clear on this point. This is why National "Socialism" was not socialism at all. And this merging of military, corporations and state continues at top speed here in the U.S. Yeah, IR, there aren't a lot of overt, anti-Semitic nazis in Israel. Why you think this means that there's not a fairly powerful fascist movement in much of the industrialized world is beyond me. Are you really as myopic as you sound or are we having more language barrier issues? You continually side with the slimmouses against those trying to point out the dangers of this movement. You continually dismiss the dangers of worldwide fascism because of the fascism you perceive in your own country. You even blame Israel for these very mythologies. These theories are not Israeli in origin...that's lunacy. The "small group" of Jews is simply a way to avoid charges of anti-Semitism. More elaborate theories involving Luciferians, Lizards and Zionist monarchs are simply the modern day evolution of these myths. I've spelled it all out before. You'll notice, if you bother to look, though, that despite the claims of these theories to be free of racial content, the David Duke/Stormfront type sites, who are avowedly and proudly racist, have no problem putting these theories forward as well. There's a reason they find them a comfortable match for their own philosophies. It's because the ARE their own philosophies. The "evil jewish cabal within Judaism" has always been a mainstay of these theories. I just read a whole book from 1938 about "Jewish ritual murder" throughout history. And guess what? He made pains to tell us that not ALL jews were slaughterin innnocent goy children and using their blood for matzoh. No, only SOME of them. A secret group within Judaism. Gee, don't YOU feel better now? I wish I could tell you that it's just a bunch of whackos here in the US behind these myths. But from the end of ww2 on (remember, there was a very widespread fascist movement here in the US leading up to ww2.) much of this ideology and mythology has been cultured and advanced by our own intelligence agencies (comprised, in part, of nazi agents "paperclipped" into the US). Whether within political circles or New Age theologies or UFO cults, they've been advancing this mythology. This is why you see fascist politics coming out of people like David Icke who is ostensibly talking about aliens walking among us. Well, you know what, they are doing this for a reason. And it's not a good reason. And if I could have a glance at their agenda, I'm guessing their plans for Israel, should they ever COMPLETELY take over the US (however we'd judge that threshold to have been crossed) will not be to your liking. Yeah, your corrupt government will be gone...but so will Tel Aviv. But even if they have no such plans for Israel...they have plans for the US. So please, do us all a favor, and stop blaming Israel for all this fascist mythology that has been around since before Israel became a country.

by **Qutb** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:32 am

I think it's been instructive to observe Ariel Sharon these last years. Now, he's a bad man, without a doubt. I know what happened in Lebanon in 1982, and in Sinai some years before. I know he's been dreaming of a greater Israel comprising at least the West Bank and the Gaza strip, and preferably, if it was up to him and the right-wing in the Mossad, Likud and the armed forces, beyond that as well I'm sure. At the beginning of his presidency, he clearly wanted a confrontation with the Palestinians, sort it out once and for all, forget the Oslo agreement and the peace process. This led to the second intifada, as anticipated no doubt, and the resulting Israeli clampdown. Nowadays, however, Sharon goes from concession to concession. He has even abandoned the Likud now, of which he was one of the founders. Israel has evacuated the Gaza strip, they withdrew from Lebanon, and Sharon is now a proponent of evacuating most of the West Bank as well. And this, despite the fact that Israel's arch-enemy Saddam Hussein has been removed and US troops occupy Iraq. According to almost every pundit and analyst prior to the war, Sharon would seize the opportunity and embark on expansionist adventures after the fall of Saddam. According to some, this was even the hidden reason for the war on Iraq. So what happened? What happened was that Sharon's American overlords told him that there won't be no greater Israel. If you thought that's what we've been planning, you've been conned. More or less. And Sharon is the man some deranged people see as the neocon puppetmaster pulling the strings in the US and directing the neocon agenda. Re "intl' bankers" - the funny thing about these theories that emphasize intl' bankers as the ultimate puppetmasters, is that they seem stuck in circa 1890, when JP Morgan and the Baring and Rothschild and Warburg dynasties ruled supreme and financed the building of railways and ports in Brazil and Argentina, in India and North Africa, controlled heavy industry, and financed the European armaments race. This rethoric is also identical to that of Adolf Hitler, whose favorite villain was the Rothschild family. Today, the role of the international investment banker is radically diminished, his power having been ceded to stockholders, institutional investors, hedge funds, governments and multinational corporations. Banks are still immensly powerful, without a doubt, but the big banks of today are multinational corporations like any other, owned by a multitude of shareholders in many countries, publically traded, not the private family-run dynastic enterprises of the 19th and early 20th centuries. The initial public offering of JP Morgan & Co. in 1940 was the end of an era, in that respect. Today, big corporations like Ford or Siemens or General Electric have their own banking subsidiaries, and raise their capital through the global securities market or internally, and are free of the domination of investment bankers. The era when a Junius Pierpont Morgan could control entire industries is long gone. True, the Rothschild banks are still privately owned, but they are small compared to the big multinational banking and financial services corporations. People like Henry Makow still talk about "the Rothschilds" like it was the 19th century (and even then, the Rothschild dynasty didn't have the influence they attribute to it).

by ir » Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:39 am

DE, I am trying to understand you, with regards to the dangers of the fascist/antisemitic movement, and open to learn more from you on what you think the priorities should be and what are the dangers. There is an old Jewish man in Canada called Rudolf Verba, don't know if you heard the name. He is one of the few people who actually escaped from Auchswitz. He ran to Budapest to warn the Jewish community leaders from the Nazi plans to fry the Hungarian Jews. He met all of them and prepared a nice report to prove his concerns. The leaders of the community had another plan in mind, and suppressed the information, and as you might know, they chose not to alert the Jews, who were indeed fried. (around half a million) in the very last months of the war. One of those leaders, a Zionist called Kastner, was saved (by a deal he made with Aichmann) and landed in Israel with his family and money intact, into a comfortable position in the government and labor party. ONly about ten years later (well after the State was already established) he was accused by a survivor of cooperating with nazis. HE sued him for liable, and a whole pandora box opened up, eventually he lost the suit, was assassinated (by what later is thought of as Secret Services agents) and his appeal in the high court was a bit more favorable to him, postumously, though. Verba, also immigrated to israel, but after two years left to London and then again to Canada where he lives till now. Through the years he wrote his book. He never returned to ISrael and made it his business through the years to alert anyone interested that the ISraeli government is a government of KAstners. Israel, and the ZIonist world movement boycotted him, banned him, defamed him, and mostly, hid his existence and book from ISraelis. We didn't learn about him in school. Only a few years ago the information "trickled" and an ISraeli scholar flew to canada to meet with him. SHe was amazed at all this story and at his refusal to meet her and "any ISraeli at all" because of his past experiences with harassment. Eventually she succeeded in achieving his trust, and later she wrote several articles and a book about this, and forced the Unviersity of Haifa to give him a Phd of honors etc. etc., she keeps writing about this in Israeli newspaper, and still, SHE is attacked (though less now) for a variety of "sins", lying, ignorance, antisemitism and what not. Of course he is even now banned here, although this is beginning to crack, but he will die long before anyone makes a formal "change of history" and apologize. What is the point ? Verba didn't say Israel brought Hitler, but he pointed out which is what I am trying to do, that Israel, in some cases, and as a matter of policy/ideology and legacy, collaborates at the price of other Jews being harmed, so as to improve the conditions of the ruling elite. THis is called Kastnerism. NOw, certainly this is not to say that Israel or the JEws can bring about hitlers or bring them down, but WE (I am a JEW and Israeli) would really like to see our government protecting US and not a few collaborators. Of course many people told Verba through the years that the Nazis and fascists and what not of the world are using him, and his anger for the wrong reasons. Should that matter ? NO. He did the right thing and now the ISraeli youth are happy he survived in Canada to tell the story so we will learn this legacy in school, and teach it to our kids, and have a real debate on how to address Nazis. My point is, ISrael's government (and more than just the ministers) are doing the same still. It is MY GOVERNMENT and not I, who works with the Nazis in Nasa, and CIA from Paperclip and who admires (till now) Pinochet. It is they who place jews in danger and sacrifice them in wars that are more than questionable but also lie to the public about them and still do that with terrorist attacks many people stopped believing their reports on who is responsible. Simon WIesenthal is a Jew, and I don't suspect him of collaboration, he was trying to get info on AMerican NAzis, but lo and behold, this is when ISrael "Doesn't like it"... There are two levels of discussion - 1/ the fascists - I don't think JEws bring them about or are prominently responsible for all the Hitlers we had in history 2. however, since these guys - in the western-Christian world- usually have an interest in JEws, there is a legitimate discussion on how to address these rulers. You, as an AMerican belong to the people who can effect number 1 (namely, WHO will rule the Empire), and my concern is on the 2 level, namely, responding to those world situations. I would like to support anti fascism in the USA, but not at the price of suppressing my critique on how Jews/Israel are responding. It also reminds me of a person I met in Berkeley, a black guy from South Africa who was a whistle blower on corruption in the MAndela movement. Of course, he was accused of helping the white government, but he kept to himself, and now returned to work on corrections and abuses within the national african movement. It is a fine tuning matter, but I am against suppression of critique for the sole reason of this "helping the propaganda of the bad guys". I would like to see the ISraeli government STOP cooperating with Fascist and NAzi elements in your country, not in the level of speech, but rather in action. I would like to see ISraeli demanding, and putting all its weight, on requesting exposure of Paperclip, for instance, but if this is obviously impossible (and it is), then at least not to see ISrael as the senior "aid" to these people, happilly offering to do all the dirty jobs for them, at the direct expense of other JEWS. As I said, I think my concern is different, and places more importance on the lives of Jews per se, rather than others, and you cannot expect me to fully transcend that. BUt in this case, I also think we have actually the same interest. YOU are letting slimmouse set the agenda on this issue, which I thing is overblowing the measure of the real power of this movement. Although annoying, those Icke groups are really marginal and outside the realm of power, but they are doing a great service of distraction if allowed. Qutb, discussing Ariel Sharon without actually living under the conditions he created here, is too abstract. Yes, he might be able to pull some of the settlers back (and he is also capable of shooting them even if they are unarmed) although he had sent them there with big promises. This does not make him more "reasonable" than he used to be in Sabra Shatila, only more dangerous. He just likes brutality, and lacking now Arab victims he is looking for some Jewish blood. The man is derranged. I don't think he can get "peace" closer, but while he is destroying our society, he might be also doing some "right things" as pulling back some settlements THAT HE CREATED. This again, is a fine example how these leaders are using people as if they were animals, and move them around "chess boards" creating havoc in society. He thinks we are all soldiers "stationed" in a temporary camp and can be moved around like a general moves the forces during war. The truth is, that by doing it he is destoying the more important aspects of a community. But I don't think he knows anything else or better. He thinks he can contain the rage of his betrayed people (the settlers), I am not so sure. But we shall see.

by ir » Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:01 am

It is my contention that a small group of informed people, by their silence, deprived others of the possibility or privalage of making their own decisions in the face of mortal danger" Rudolf Vrba <a href="http://construct.haifa.ac.il/~rlinn/auschwitz_rev2.htm">construct.haifa.ac.il/~rl...z_rev2.htm</a> Dr Linn's overall objective is to cast doubt on the hegemonic narrative of the persecution of the Jewish people in Europe, particularly in Hungary, which for so long has been virtually the only interpretation offered to the majority of Israeli citizens. The "established" Israeli historians' selection as to what accounts of the Holocaust should or should not be translated into Hebrew directly affected how the Israeli public understood the facts. For example, she notes, the refusal to translate such works as Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem or Raul Hilberg's monumental and authoritative study The Destruction of European Jewry (<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"> , or Vrba's own memoir, can be seen as a deliberate measure to control the Israeli public's awareness of the full complexities of the Holocaust. Although Dr Linn was born and educated in Israel, she had never heard of Vrba's role in revealing the secrets of Auschwitz and of the"resettlement" of the Jews sent there. Despite the centrality of Holocaust remembrance in Israel's national consciousness, she only learnt about this escape while viewing Claude Lanzmann's film Shoah at some point in the late 1980s. Ten years later, however, she had an opportunity to meet Vrba personally and to read his book I cannot forgive." We are being lied to, in Israel as you can see from this reading, which makes one wonder WHY is it so centrally important to our leadership to keep the lid on these issue, until now. Are they again "cooking" something ?

by **hmm** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:23 am

is easy. but if the posters on this thread think they "win" the argument using transparent debating "tactics"...hmm Can we actually discuss zionism without waving the protocols and using fascist talking points as "proof" of ones argument. I for one wish to discuss Zionism and Israel in the same way i discuss every other issue or country and its history. With a open mind on the basis of facts (which is disputable ofcourse). In every other topic on this board it is the NORM to be able to freely review and revise history. Most of us are here for the very reason we dont believe the history spoon-fed us since birth? I want to debate and illuminate the history of zionism in topics about zionism without the "evil-jew-illuminati-banker-communist-protocols" BS coming from those DEFENDING zionism. Zionism is not my choice of word,nor is it hitlers for that matter,as far as i know hitler was 8 (i looked that up) when the first Zionist congress was held in basel switzerland in 1897. p.s. as I tagged this onto your post Qutb i want to make clear that these comments are not solely directed at you personally as a number of posters on this thread seem to rely on these methods when discussing zionism.

by **Rigorous Intuition** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 10:11 am

because the thread was started by a banned user to fan the usual flames.

by **Dreams End** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:59 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Can we actually discuss zionism without waving the protocols and using fascist talking points as "proof" of ones argument.<hr></blockquote> When the arguments about Zionism are simply the same arguments as found in the Protocols, etc, then why is that unreasonable to bring it up? This "version" of Zionism (not counting IR's rather complex view) is an unfalsifiable, all-encompassing theory that simply counts "Zionists" and ignores the role of other forces in history. So, whenever you guys get called out for these arch "Zionist" conspiracies, you simply say...hey it should be okay to critique Zionism. Well, sure it is. Orthodox Jews do it all the time. But it was slimmouse who brought up Icke and Makow..not me. So it's okay to bring up these guys who rely on pure fantasy and leftover John Birch pamphlets for their "arguments" but to call them on it is somehow unfair? Ir said: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Although annoying, those Icke groups are really marginal and outside the realm of power, but they are doing a great service of distraction if allowed.<hr></blockquote> If I thought that, obviously, I wouldn't waste my energy. That's the point of several excellent threads in the last few weeks. Research into the "deep politics" of these groups suggests that this "Icke" type New age fascism is, in fact really widespread and, at the very least, given "nudges" from the intel establishment. To give one example you can find on these threads is the relation of the weird teachings of "the nine" who teach about alien intervention in human history. Jeff writes about them. They are "channeled" entities. Just whackos? The people involved in channeling and promoting the message of the nine include the Stanford Research Institute (big military reasearch firm) and a guy named Puharich, who was heavily involved in intelligence operations. The message of the nine includes a lot of "racial analysis" and while going back and forth on its opinions of "The Hebrews", it reveals that the Hebrews are descended from the "Hoovids", an extraterrestrial race. They have good things to say about the Jews, actually, exept how they made a critical error in rejecting Jesus and so this now puts them in a definite "bad column." As we've seen on this site, this message of the Nine actually is pretty directly descended from Blavatsky and Bailey and has been of use to all sorts of Nazi mystics. I mean this literally, as in the Thule Society. Hess, etc. The same message pops up in UFO cults. One of the most famous "contactees" George Adamski, was a part of the neo-Nazi Silver Shirts. This matters because UFO's are big. Rense.com is big. Crop circles are big. Mysteries of the pyramids are big. Atlantis is big. (usual caveat here that just because someone is interested in these does not make them a Nazi. I am interested in all these topics, particularly UFO's which was where I first started encountering these intel games.). These "whackos" are penetrating American culture rather effectively. I'm hardest on this particular manifestation of fascist mythology for one reason: I've fallen victim to it myself. You can keep going with the message of the Nine, which as Stargate Conspiracy makes clear, was definitely a project of American Intelligence agencies, despite the genuine and interesting mysteries that are involved. You find a similar message in peak oiler Richard Heinberg, for example, who comes from one of a seemingly endless variety of "New Age cults". You see it in Alexander Dugin, who, like Icke (though far more sophisticated and more directly influential and connected to state apparatus) gave up his overt anti-Semitism and, indeed, his overt occultism for a more "mainstream" Eurasianist movement that is probably at the heart of current geo-political strategy for many countries. It's a general theory of a special race (according to the Necronomicon, by the way, created by Peter Levenda, the pentagram is a sign of the Aryan race, which at one point in the introduction to that book he slipped and called "our race". It's clear who that book was aimed at, though I'm glad to see Levenda seems to be on the anti-Nazi side now, though very cautious about what his agenda might actually be.) This basic ideology is all over the place. I simply had no idea how widespread this is. I can't say how much directly comes from intel or secret fascist groups and how much is spread the way all religions and folklore spread, but it is everywhere. In addition, this ideology is SO pervasive that anyone attempting to do legitimate research on various conspiracies, 9-11 say, can be so misled or so led to believe that all the conspiracists are whackos, that they will simply give up. And it's used very, very deliberately for misdirection. The MOST IMPORTANT aspect of 9-11, I'm coming to believe, is the widespread fascist/Islamic network in the Middle East and their support by Western governments such as Britain and the US. Whatever the truth about how the buildings came down, that entire apparatus of "terrorists" is pretty much a creation of the CIA and British intelligence. The only question I have is exactly how directly they receive orders from Langley. Well, go to all the alleged 9-11 truth sites and see how much you find on this (Well, don't go to hopsicker's site or you'll DISPROVE my point in that one instance). Notice, for example, how the "whatreallyhappened.com" site blames every element of current American policy on Israel. ALL OF IT. And he's quite influential in the 9-11 truth movement. So it IS important. Nevermind the fascist nature of this for a moment. The disinfo component alone should be enough to make us shudder. The basic idea is that you put out there that it is not the general military/corporate/government agenda that wages unjust wars and torture, etc. It is a SECRET GROUP that is controlling the government. For purposes of disinfo, it doesn't even have to be Jews. I don't think the Christic Institute ever put out an anti-Semitic theory, but they embraced this perspective. Or it could be aliens. But the whole point is that by pointing to this "cabal", it lets most of the power structure off the hook. And this is one of the main reasons these theories are so damaging. I've spent months researching various legitimate conspiracy theories and 85% of what I encounter is exactly this kind of stuff. So, if we can just get rid of the secret group, unrestrained corporate rape of the earth can continue apace. yay capitalism! As I said, it doesn't HAVE to be a Jewish group, but it almost always is. Even Icke's aliens morphed from Jews. And I think I'm understanding something that I can't yet prove about events in this country. I believe our current "neo-cons", primarily Jewish, were shepherded into prominence by the CIA, primarily through funding of various think tanks, such as the Congress for Cultural Freedom. The initial project was to create a strongly anti-Soviet strain among the left in the U.S. And this was done rather succesfully. The heart of this was a group of Trotskyites, who later sort of morphed into cold war liberals but maintained some sort of ideological continuity...eventually morphing again into the neo-cons. And they may be sincere in their beliefs, but there is evidence that they simply HAD to be aware of the CIA funding coming into the CCF. This is important because these same neo-cons are now being blasted on all sides (and, purely from a political philosophy perspective, rightly so) for leading us into the Iraq war. I found it interesting how almost immediately, one set of "former" intelligence folks, led by Ray McGovern, (Intelligence Professionals for Social Responsibility or some such name) began to blast the neo-cons from the outset. Others, like Madsen even called for a military coup to oust them. My view is that they serve a purpose. I think soon you will see the neo-cons ousted by a combination of public outrage and private CIA "deep throat" style leaks. All those who see the neo-cons as direct evidence that Israel was behind the war will be satisfied. Meanwhile, what will come along to replace them? Kerry or Hillary. I hate to say it, but that's a BEST CASE scenario. Could we have an actual military coup in this country? I'm not sure. They usually like to do these things behind the scenes. But if Bush's numbers get low enough....Meanwhile, the stage is set for a purge of some kind. The agenda of destruction in Iraq was accomplished, Americans will feel a sense of relief ("our nightmare is over" or for some "The Zionist Occupied Government has been defeated at last.") and meanwhile while the military/industrial/intelligence agenda will continue uninterrupted. My point is that, from a point of view of agenda setting and disinformation, this fascist strain in our political discourse is, in fact, extremely important. It's not exactly clear what the purpose of it all is, and I'm sure the results will take forms that will surprise me. UFO researcher Jaques Vallee, as one example, encountered so many of these games just in the UFO field alone, sophisticated hoaxes which tracked back to government sources, that he figured that perhaps they were putting forward this belief system so that, if needed, a FAKE alien landing could be put on in order to justify a more openly authoritarian system of government. This, to me, seems also to be the point of the "imminent catastrophe" theme that is all pervasive in the occult side of this fascist perspective (also in the secular "peak oil" and "dieoff" theories.) Keep the populace hopeless, or, at the very least, keep them thinking that if there is hope, it is to be placed not in themselves and their neighbors but in the space brothers, or Maitreya, or a special counsel with direct insight into the will of greater intelligences. I realize that this rambling is down in the Firepit and will likely not be seen, but I wanted to put these thoughts together in one place. Some of the above is pure speculation, but lots of it is speculation based on lots of research that we've been looking into in various threads over the last several weeks. I just don't want to reproduce all that here.

by **AnnaLivia** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:16 pm

I’m more and more confused all the time from this discussion, so this isn’t meant to clarify anything except why I said what I did about the very term Zionism. Since I don’t know but a thimbleful about ANY organized religion, and indeed would give my right arm and leg not to need to know (but have come to accept that world history is so full of religious history bullshit that maybe I do need to learn more about it in order to move us on to peace and justice…which, as I said, isn’t really happening through these discussions thanks to those who came in to spread ethnic, religious, and racial hatred in very subtle ways…and a fucking pox on all who they may be and they know themselves even if I don’t sometimes)… Anyway, I read this a few years ago and no matter what my own religious or non-religious views may be, these people sure seemed to be taking their own religious values seriously and they talk about acceptance of others and living in peace with ALL others, so I found their views to at least be GENUINE, and THEY say Zionism is NOTHING to do with Judaism, and I took them at their word. So now you know why I said the term just pollutes the waters. <a href="http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/index.cfm">www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/index.cfm</a> please do not infer any position of mine from this, other than why I said that about Zionism, ok? oh, and just as i came to post this, i see DE has posted again. i haven't read that yet, but i do keep trying to hang in there in hopes i can gain some kind of clarification eventually.

by **Dreams End** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:06 pm

There've always been a group of orthodox Jews who interpreted scripture to mean that Jews simply have no right from God to establish this homeland. That belief is reflected on that site. You'll notice no accusations of a larger Zionist plan to dominate the world. This is the distinction I'm trying to make.

by ir » Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:15 pm

Now I have a hypothetical for you ; Suppose the government of SIrael found out that western governments are selling weapons to one of the "neighbors", iraq, iran what not, behind their back. They get pissed, and rightly so, and decide to thwart the treacherous deeds. In order to do that, they come up with one of those Mossad projects. But incidenctly, along that huge defense project (which is morally JUST for self protection) they happen also to kill, mutilate, torture, and rape, and abuse hundreds of Israeli/or Jews around the world (because by now they are not only ingenious organization but also cutting corners with regards to civil rights). Suppose they also rape ten children on the way to this very JUST operation. ANd they succeed. They knock out the secret plan to sell very dangerous arms to a very dangerous tyrant and enemy. They save the day ! SOmehow a few survivors make it to the USA and reach Dreams End office of special operaions. WOuld you help them expose the atrocities Mossad has been systematically committing against JEWs and ISraelis ? at the same day when they come to you breathless, you get an email from RI, disclosing how wide and spread the new antisemitic movement is these days, saying that the Jews are perverts who systematically rape kids. SHould your clients speak up, this will be FOOD for these Icke/Makow rats. also, in the USA at that time the attack on the "Jewish neo con cabal" is at its peak. ANd lo and behlod, even worse news for you, the poor survivors (who have scars of electrcution on genitals to prove) say that the person they saw oversee the project was...one of those precise NEOCONs, now being accused of fabricating the Iraq war. They say he is indeed a pervert sadist, who mixes buisness with pleasure, as the saying goes. WHAT DO YOU DO ? hush them ? or help them ? they are under death threats and soon, if not acting fast to expose it, they will perish like the hundreds other victims. What is more important ? DE, I see what you mean and I do not underestimate the potential spreading and effects of the new age/icke/lizards movement. I read your explanation about the NeoCon, maybe yes maybe no. I don't know, but you see it is impossible for me (or any Jew) to ask of me to see people like Ronald Lauder, Perle, etc. etc, as mere victims of an elaborate CIA plot to make them rich and powerful. That may well be true in fact, but then what is the response ? let them be ? hug then and wipe their tears ? no, the response should be INTERNAL transformation of MY community so that we become more aware, more democratic, more honest, to at least not lend a hand to these trends. How do you do that ? if you are an ISraeli, like myself, you expose them for what they are. That's all. I am not saying let's decapitate the neo cons. Plus, there are enough internal abuses which you don't even know of, that merit a very harsh response, which is NOT happening in my part of the world, it IS, but very mild,, lenient, too late and too little. I am telling you, that the key is the response of the Jews, to those IN their community who constantly lead us to those historical traps. You know yourself that IF (and god willing it will not happen) the shit hits the fan, who will be fried ? ME, and not You. Will the NeoCOns be fried with me ? no, because they will be way somewhere in a settlement on the moon that they already arranged with their money. This is precisely the NAzi pattern, has happened before same way. I did read the "nine" material, and I had only one thing in mind, these people are messing with the minds of Jews in particular, but who is going to bed with them ? Uri Geller ? not to mention thousands of other Jewish and ISraeli "scientists", medical doctors, space technocracts, military generals...going along...You cannot have a "pure" community, and if they didn't join those nazis someone else would have, but in terms of their power ON the JEwish community, or on ISrael -they should be "vomitted" out of our community. If they want to be "NIners" of Jewish origin, fine, but they are attempting to gain control over the entire people and lead them to hell. They are again withholding information from the rest of the community, as the same "leaders" and "rich oligarchs" did before WW2. I don't want them, you don't want them, let them be exposed BY JEWS, so that nobody can say this is "race" issue, or Lizards. But as long as they receive immunity from our nation, who are we to blame ? we get the heat... As for ZIonism. I think there is a lot of mixup here. ZIonism, as a historical term is a group of movements, with very different ideas, that started around the same time, mid 19th century under the influence of the spring of nations in Europe. The struggle within the "zionist" movement never stopped, and as I said, while I am siding for the right of Jews (as myself) to live here, I am totally in opposition to the ideology on which the current state of israel is founded. There are shades there, and for us here, they mean everything. I also suggest that those who mean well, will take the time to study the issue and think, even meditate on empowering the ISraelis/Jews to resist the domination of militarist groups over the imagination of the Jewish nation. TO lump me up with Makow is quite ridiculous not only because I am Jewish but because I am an Israeli, and in his terms a "Zionist" (namely, thinking I have the right to be here), but in terms of ISraeli government I am an "anti ZIonist" menace to society. Of course the reality of ZIonism is what counts and not Makow's metaphors and simplistic ideas. But seriously I can't let some idiot's misconception and "virtual" reality, effect my very real struggles ? SO, I am willing to take the menace of Makow seriously, provided this does not mean I have to take his assertions and definitions seriously when dealing with real world events.

by **slimmouse** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:37 pm

You say a lot and say precisely nothing. You go round and round in fucking circles and dont reach a single conclusion. "This may be disinfo, that may be disinfo," and never a single decent opinion of your own about anything. Its embarrassing to behold. I once gave you way too much credit by saying you were actually saying something here and there. But I was sadly misguided. Will the REAL dreams end please stand up. Im so lost in your convoluted crap, which does nothing but smear, smear, smear, and disagree with just about everyone. Why do I get the impression that this is your sole role for this site. Get everyone so lost, that they dont really know where to turn. And you call me stupid ! Well that may be, but I know a full of shit merchant when I see one, and you fit the bill perfectly. You must have been a lonely fucking kid at school. Lets just have a quick look at your latest smear bullshit, cooly designed to fog the waters, in some kind of attempt to say that The Zionist Nazi wave is nothing of the fucking sort. Have a look at whats been going on in Palestine for the last 60 years you ignoramus. Shame on you; Heres a more detailed reply to the usual pile of bullshit responses from DE. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>If you can't understand why fascism in the US might be of concern to Israel, then I'm beyond explaining it to you. Those theories are not from Israel. They are directly from the Protocols, which slimmouse endorses (though admits not having read) and from Mein Kempf. I've explained it in great detail before, and I know you've read those threads.<hr></blockquote> Here we have hypocrisy and a clear admitted lie rolled into one. IR is supposed to be aware of Fascism in the US, and yet should anyone mention the murdering fascism in action (by proxy) of Kissinger, Brzezwinski, Wolfowitz, Perle, Ledeen Feith, Kristol, Lewis, with lots of et ceteras, one is immediately accused of racism and Nazism. And of course I now appear capable of endorsing something which I havent even read. Doh. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Of course every country has elites. That has absolutely nothing to do with anything and clearly you know that, so I'm not sure what your problem is. You have to recognize the stories of international Jewish (or Banker) conspiracies as what they are. Hitler said the same shit.<hr></blockquote> Now heres some classic denialist bullshit. But let us take DE at face value for just one moment. The world situation today isnt down to a handful of elites, but down to some hidden mechanics and strange forces who no one should actually identify. I would suggest to DE that this is because you cant Identify the forces at play, because youre full of it as usual. However, Im prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt for now. Perhaps you might explain those forces who you consider responsible ? And then of course, we get back to the Hitler references. If in doubt quote Hitler. OK. Im cool with that. Now were on the topic. Im wondering DE, how do you feel about the fact that the founders of Bnai Brith were in league with Hitler through financing and business projects through the entirety of the war ? Or is that factual elephant in the living room too small for you to see and acknowledge ? <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Do you ever wonder about the emphasis on "international bankers" as opposed to "international corporations"? It's because the fascists are careful to distinguish between "financial capitalists" (i.e. Jewish bloodsucking usurers) and "industrial capitalists" (the heroes of the homeland...protected from evil strikers and communists by the Reich.)<hr></blockquote> The emphasis on "international Bankers" in this discussion, comes largely from you. However ask you any kind of question on this, and you retreat down your ADL sanctioned liehole. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Hitler was very clear on this point. This is why National "Socialism" was not socialism at all. And this merging of military, corporations and state continues at top speed here in the U.S.<hr></blockquote> You are obviously an expert on Hitler. In which case I find it surprising that firstly, you arent able to confirm the facts I have outlined above vis a vi his financing and business partnerships. Furthermore as a Hitler expert, Im wondering if you can confirm that Hitler had the one thing in common with the 3 assassinated presidents of the United States ? Namely that he had decided to print his nations own money - taking out of the hands of those families and groups who extort billions from every taxpayer each year via loans to countries. No doubt its a coincidence that the same fate befell them all. Which incidentally is far closer to National socialism than currently exists in the rest of the western world. However , I can appreciate that sits on your 'dont go there list' right ? <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Yeah, IR, there aren't a lot of overt, anti-Semitic nazis in Israel. Why you think this means that there's not a fairly powerful fascist movement in much of the industrialized world is beyond me. Are you really as myopic as you sound or are we having more language barrier issues?<hr></blockquote> More stone faced hypocrisy and misdirection. Lets get this perfectly straight, right here, right now; There is a MASSIVE powerful fascist movement in the industrialised world. Its fucking running it. It doesnt give a shit about the average Israeli, as it pumps billions of dollars of arms into the ME to perpetuate an ongoing massacre on both sides. The Israels lose less in the bloodfest of course, except to say that it no doubt drains their lifeforce, and their sanity. You wanna know what gives this fascism some of its cover and credibility ? Hypocritical denialist "anti fascists" such as you DE, who is neither prepared to call a spade a spade, nor see further than your own face, and yet have the audacity to accuse other of myopia. Hilarious. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>You continually side with the slimmouses against those trying to point out the dangers of this movement. You continually dismiss the dangers of worldwide fascism because of the fascism you perceive in your own country.<hr></blockquote> Yes, and I continually side with IR. Not bad for a racist anti semite huh ? More Hilarity. Wanna know why ? Because IR speaks from an impartial position. Because she is prepared to address the problems caused for Israel by the Fascist Nazi elite in America, such as those named by myself on numerous occasions. And wanna know something else DE. IR lives in fucking Israel, so she should know a sight more about the situation than any amount of banner waving Zionist defending ignoramus idiot sat in a church in Bible belt America, or anywhere else for that matter. Which is infinitely more preferable to where you are coming from. I can only hope that your vindictive, snidy , denialist "intellectualism" is due more to your ego than any other motives. You strike me as classic ADL material. The ultimate Oxymoronic spouting hypocrit. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>You even blame Israel for these very mythologies. These theories are not Israeli in origin...that's lunacy. The "small group" of Jews is simply a way to avoid charges of anti-Semitism. More elaborate theories involving Luciferians, Lizards and Zionist monarchs are simply the modern day evolution of these myths. I've spelled it all out before.<hr></blockquote> I love the "small group of jews is simply a way to avoid antisemitism" shite. Nothing to do with the fact that is a small minority then huh ? In exactly the same way that a small luciferian sect of Protestants are shiteing on me for their own ends, Just like catholics or any other denomination. What dont you like about that DE ? Not "Anti semitic" enough for ya ? I know youd prefer more widespread labelling from the way you move from specific points to generalisations. Ive got plenty of them from your triumverate. They usually begin with switching a discussion from say Israelis in my rhetoric, to Jews in yours. From Bankers and international elites in my rhetoric to Jews in yours. From the fact that Icke suggests that the Rothschilds are lizards,to the amazing new statement ( apparently by Icke) that the "Jews are lizards", meaning obviously all of them. Switch n flame, Switch n flame. Switch the comment, and then use the new revised opinion of the target ( which you have revised for them ) to your own ends. When youve seen this technique in action a few hundred times ( it must be getting up to almost one hundred on this board already ) then you recognise the methodology of those people involved. Hypocrisy personified. Hysterical hypocrisy personified in many instances. So the "small group of Jews" quip is not in fact a fact but an excuse LOL. Its got nothing to do with the facts - its all about racism right ? What fucking planet are you on ? This fits comfortably with the meme that if you cant attack the message, attack the messenger, since its far easier. Its despicable cowardice is what it is. FWIW I am extremely uncomfortable with Makows constant reference to "Jews" in general. I guess its like any author really. You take what you like and disregard the rest. But heres where Im really coming from, There are several groups of people who I have no time whatsoever for. Liars and Hypocrits are high on the list. Almost as high as racists in fact. Anyone who feels themselves superior to others need their heads looking at IMO. I dunno, perhaps that could be why we dont get on. .

by **Dreams End** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:38 pm

A few little responses till this thread dies the firepit death. 1. I don't think I expect IR to know all about US or world fascism. My point is that anytime someone posts NOT on Israeli atrocities in the West Bank or something, but instead on how Zionism is a force for world domination, IR wants to use that particular thread to complain about the situation in Israel. But that is hardly EVER the topic. I don't recall IR ever saying zionism was a secret conspiracy to rule the world, but that's usually the point of the threads. Note that the starter of this very thread went by the name Zundel originally. This is called "a clue." 2. Saying that Zionism is not a worldwide plot for domination is not the same as saying it's okay for Mossad to torture suspects. It also doesn't excuse individual neo-cons, of whatever religion. Since the threads these arguments appear on are often saying the former, to bring information about the latter is probably not going to keep this distinction clear. 3. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> I can only hope that your vindictive, snidy , denialist "intellectualism" is due more to your ego than any other motives. You strike me as classic ADL material.<hr></blockquote> This is slimmouse demonstrating my point for me, so thanks for that. 4. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>FWIW I am extremely uncomfortable with Makows constant reference to "Jews" in general.<hr></blockquote> You sure hide it well. IR, you can say WHATEVER you want about Likud, Israel, Mossad, whatever. It's just that you consistently choose to post this stuff in threads started by anti-Semites who wish to disparage Jews, or some small clique of Jews and accuse them of a grand conspiracy that's been alleged since the Middle Ages. I'm not sure why you do that.

Dangerous Enemies

Re: zionism

Re: zionism

Re: zionism

Re: zionism

Re: zionism

zionism

some links on Vrba, Israel and memory

the strawman,the bait&switch,discussing zionism with naz

Moving this to the Fire Pit

Re: Moving this to the Fire Pit

Re: Moving this to the Fire Pit

Re: Moving this to the Fire Pit

well..

Re: Dreams end.

Re: Dreams end.

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